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The Herschelkrustofsky ban revisited, SV and her posse at work |
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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I am posting this in response to comments made by Hell Freezes Over in some recent threads. 9 days ago, this page at Wikipedia was deleted. Don't ask me why. It provided a useful chronology of how I was driven off the project. It included a description of my role in the Nobs01 and others arbcom case. I was the only respondent who was not named in the proposed findings of fact. If I had kept my mouth shut, nothing would have happened to me. Because I insisted on speaking out, asserting that the penalties doled out by the arbcom were inequitable (Cberlet was "cautioned," others who had committed comparable offenses were blocked or placed on probation,) I was place on indefinite probation. Fred Bauder justified this decision in the following way: QUOTE 15) In view of the dissatisfaction expressed by Herschelkrustofsky with the decisions reached in this case, and the apparent lack of insight into any role his own behavior played in the creation and aggravation of the problems which gave rise to this case, he is placed indefinitely on Wikipedia:Probation. Since this was a little too obvious, Raul654 covered the tracks with this edit.This action set the stage for what followed. Slim and Will Beback began wikistalking me to various articles, accusing me of adding ideas which they alleged were similar to ideas advocated at one time or another by LaRouche (see Searching for LaRouche under the bed.) They were assisted by 172 (T-C-L-K-R-D)
in setting a trap for me (into which I foolishly walked) at Synarchism (T-H-L-K-D). The article did not mention LaRouche, until 172 added a bunch of defamatory crap about LaRouche, which I should have ignored, because the article has probably been read by about six people. But, I removed it, and was charged with "editing a LaRouche-related article," in violation of probation. I protested that it was not a LaRouche-related article, and Slim's response was [paraphrase]"It is now."[/paraphrase] Now, you can still read this page, some great stuff which I excerpted from the ANI board. The admin who deleted my user page missed it. Hurry! Also, as a sort of postscript, this one, extracted from User talk:SlimVirgin.
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Replies
Cla68 |
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QUOTE(Kato @ Tue 14th April 2009, 9:27am) The main things I'm getting from this thread are: - Herschel, or whoever it was, shouldn't have started the biography on Chip Berlet. That was a real mistake. That biography should be deleted at the subject's request, and for other valid reasons.
- Chip Berlet shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the LaRouche articles. He's been in litigation with LaRouche for starters, has a massive conflict of interest, and openly talks about his quest to counter LaRouche whom he regularly compares to Hitler. It was inevitable that his presence would cause major problems.
- The clique of admins and users who are openly anti-LaRouche, who rallied round to protect Berlet, showed blatant double standards; dragged a large area of Wikipedia through the mud - further discredited the place. They have shown they cannot be trusted any more than any of the other disruptive forces at the site.
We're starting to go off on a tangent about American cultural history. To get back to the subject at hand, Kato provides an excellent summary above of where we stand in this discussion so far. I'd say that the next step is, how can Wikipedia resolve this? Well, I suggest: - Topic ban DKing and CBerlet (I know, I know, Berlet is "retired" from editing). - Delete Berlet's BLP. - Topic ban Jayjg, SV, and any of the other editors and admins who have pursued the "pro-LaRouche" editors using bad-faith tactics.
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Wed 15th April 2009, 12:42am)
We're starting to go off on a tangent about American cultural history. To get back to the subject at hand, Kato provides an excellent summary above of where we stand in this discussion so far. I'd say that the next step is, how can Wikipedia resolve this? Well, I suggest:
- Topic ban DKing and CBerlet (I know, I know, Berlet is "retired" from editing). - Delete Berlet's BLP. - Topic ban Jayjg, SV, and any of the other editors and admins who have pursued the "pro-LaRouche" editors using bad-faith tactics.
Cla, you do yourself no favours with this kind of extreme bias. You seem to reach decisions based entirely on whether you like the players or not. With Jossi, you deplore his editing of [[Prem Rawat]], given that he appears to have been employed by that organization, and you applaud the editors who opposed him. (And I agree with you. If he was employed by Prem Rawat, he should not have been editing there.) But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-banned, the editors who opposed the LaRouche edits topic-banned, but the LaRouchies themselves, including those apparently employed by LaRouche -- for them you mention no restrictions whatsoever! Look at the edit histories of all the LaRouche articles, and the talk pages, before you comment further, please. The LaRouche editors were a menace. Bad editors, who appeared to have been completely brain-washed, and who could not find it within themselves to post, or watch anyone else post, a single non-adoring word about the leader.
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Wed 15th April 2009, 1:28am) QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Tue 14th April 2009, 9:22pm) You seem to reach decisions based entirely on whether you like the players or not. ...and you don't? That's right, I don't, and there's an example in my post above. I like Jossi, but I can't support his editing [[Prem Rawat]] if he was indeed working for him.
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Kato |
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dhd
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QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Wed 15th April 2009, 2:35am) That's right, I don't, and there's an example in my post above. I like Jossi, but I can't support his editing [[Prem Rawat]] if he was indeed working for him.
Well take another trip down WP's irony wormhole. It was Jossi and yourself who hammered out the Conflict of Interest policies back in 2006. By the time you'd finished, you'd written: QUOTE(SlimVirgin edit to Conflict of Interest page) Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization.
Jossi suggested adding "legal" on the talk page, and you agreed. So we've got Mr Conflict of Interest himself, Jossi, ironing out the policy. Meanwhile, you added the "legal" while all the time assuming its perfectly acceptable for Chip Berlet - who has been in litigation with LaRouche - to be all over the LaRouche articles editing away to his heart's content? And you didn't think people would have a problem with that? Ridiculous. Wikipedia deserves all the trouble caused by this LaRouche mess. It deserves it. What an incompetent shambles. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 15th April 2009, 1:59am) And you didn't think people would have a problem with that? Ridiculous. Wikipedia deserves all the trouble caused by this LaRouche mess. It deserves it. What an incompetent shambles. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif) What trouble was caused on WP by the "LaRouche mess"? Herschel was taken to ArbCom, a number of LaRouche sockpuppets were blocked, and an expert on LaRouche stopped editing because he felt WP panders too much to lunatics. What trouble was there other than that?
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Kato |
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dhd
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QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Wed 15th April 2009, 3:24am) QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 15th April 2009, 1:59am) And you didn't think people would have a problem with that? Ridiculous. Wikipedia deserves all the trouble caused by this LaRouche mess. It deserves it. What an incompetent shambles. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif) What trouble was caused on WP by the "LaRouche mess"? Herschel was taken to ArbCom, a number of LaRouche sockpuppets were blocked, and an expert on LaRouche stopped editing because he felt WP panders too much to lunatics. What trouble was there other than that? Hours and hours and hours wasted of good people's time. People who wanted nothing to do with your obviously flawed battle with LaRouche. All those RFC's and arbitrations. The not so small matter of innocent people being profiled as LaRouchies. The suspension of common sense and basic standards of neutrality and Conflict of Interest. The absolutely ridiculous state of affairs that means you are still arguing about it now. According to Wikipedia's great proclamations, administrators are supposed should be impartial overseers of neutral content. But you started editing on LaRouche related topics within a month of editing. And you've obviously got serious personal issues with LaRouche as evidenced by this thread. What on earth did you thing you were doing using admins tools on the LaRouche articles? What on earth did you think you were doing building up profiles of "LaRouche editors" in your private space? What on earth do you think you're doing still trying to justify the blatant disregard for tenets now? If you still can't see the discrepancies in your conduct, and the obvious Conflicts of Interest problem caused by allowing Chip Berlet to cite himself on LaRouche articles, I can only conclude that you are simply deluded, and beyond reason.
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 15th April 2009, 3:02am) According to Wikipedia's great proclamations, administrators are supposed should be impartial overseers of neutral content. But you started editing on LaRouche related topics within a month of editing. And you've obviously got serious personal issues with LaRouche as evidenced by this thread.
What on earth did you thing you were doing using admins tools on the LaRouche articles? What on earth did you think you were doing building up profiles of "LaRouche editors" in your private space? What on earth do you think you're doing still trying to justify the blatant disregard for tenets now?
If you still can't see the discrepancies in your conduct, and the obvious Conflicts of Interest problem caused by allowing Chip Berlet to cite himself on LaRouche articles, I can only conclude that you are simply deluded, and beyond reason.
Get your facts right, please. 1. I am discussing this only because Herschel started this thread about it. I'd be quite happy not to discuss it ever again, but I don't want his disinformation to stand uncorrected anymore. He has been doing it for several years here. It's time that someone gave another side of the story. None of you have ever tried to. 2. Admin tools were used on those articles by admins who were editing them *only with the consent of the ArbCom*. 3. Show me one "innocent" person who was wrongly blocked as a LaRouchie (blocked per the rulings in three ArbCom cases). 4. I have no serious personal issues with LaRouche, just as any other Wikipedian who opposes cult editing need have no serious personal issue with those cults. I have issues with single-purpose accounts who turn up to use WP as their latest platform and who violate the content policies. As I said earlier, there's an enormous hypocrisy here among a small number of you. You applaud the editors who opposed the Prem Rawat cult editing, yet you attack the editors who did the same with LaRouche. The difference? You have a LaRouche employee here as staff, and you can use the LaRouche articles as another stick to beat me with, your favourite pastime. It is intellectually dishonest, and reasonable readers of these posts will see that, notwithstanding the insults that a handful of you keep posting.
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Posts in this topic
Herschelkrustofsky The Herschelkrustofsky ban revisited Jon Awbrey
I am posting this in response to comments made by... CharlotteWebb
9 days ago, this page at Wikipedia was deleted. D... Heat
Of course he missed it. He wasn't born yet.
... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167623' da... Hell Freezes Over
This action set the stage for what followed. Sli... Kato
Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts ... Hell Freezes Over
Shouldn't edits be judged on their merits?
... Kato
Very much so. What do you think about this articl... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167668' dat... Kato
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167668' da... Hell Freezes Over
I suppose other than putting the non-notable and... Herschelkrustofsky
Do you believe Lyndon LaRouche is a reliable sour... Hell Freezes Over
1. LaRouche's publications are reliable sour... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167722' da... Hell Freezes Over
I believe his views on any topic should be subjec... Somey Do you believe his own views ought to be added to ... Obesity
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167728' dat... CharlotteWebb
Here is the photo in question, which shows LaRouc... Mackan
[quote name='Mackan' post='167725' date='Sun 12th... Somey Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts m... Hell Freezes Over
Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts ... Kato
The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is tha... Jon Awbrey
And so I am giving just one example of why the ba... Jon Awbrey
And so I am giving just one example of why the b... Somey If I'm wrong -- if this is just my "half-... Hell Freezes Over
There's a whole butt-load of web pages on tha... Somey I'm giving just *one* example. How much of thi... CharlotteWebb
Despite being asked many times by several editors... Jon Awbrey
The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is th... Kato
In any event, this Larouche stuff is hardly a maj... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Somey' post='167686' date='Sun 12th ... Hell Freezes Over
Like the last HK sockpuppet blocked by SlimVirgin... Kato
Kato, you need to stop posting here without check... Mackan I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he s... dtobias
Who escalates several reverts on a talk page by i... Jon Awbrey
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... The Adversary
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Herschelkrustofsky
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Hell Freezes Over
As I have said before, I will respond to any evid... dtobias
*Third case (2005) involving HK here http://en.wi... Cla68
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' dat... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' da... dtobias
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy.... Jon Awbrey
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy... dtobias
Psychological projection, anyone?
Gadzooks... The Joy
[quote name='dtobias' post='167865' date='Sun 12... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167863' da... EricBarbour
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy.... Cla68
Can you show me an edit from Cberlet that was alm... Shalom RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RA... Somey You all claim to care about BLP. Chip Berlet and t... Kato
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167863' dat... It's the blimp, Frank
The biography of Chip Berlet should be deleted. H... Hell Freezes Over
You all claim to care about BLP. Chip Berlet and ... Kato
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the prev... Herschelkrustofsky
It's very sad that he was given no support he... Kato Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least one... Heat
Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least on... Herschelkrustofsky
I think Berlet is a Reliable Source on Larouche. ... Kato
I think Berlet is a Reliable Source on Larouche.... Hell Freezes Over
I think Berlet is a Reliable Source on Larouche.... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168053' da... Hell Freezes Over
Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least on... Heat
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th ... Hell Freezes Over
Much worse than that. Once he set himself up as... GlassBeadGame
Much worse than that. Once he set himself up a... nobs Slim: Let's cut to the quick (I just been info... EricBarbour Let's not confuse the cause of anti-communism ... Somey This is merely daytime entertainment, while she wa... Cla68
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='168062' date='M... It's the blimp, Frank
You never addressed my question from yesterday, w... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... the fieryangel
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... Jon Awbrey
Actually, I did come to this conclusion concernin... Somey He did ask that it be deleted, but it was kept.
Th... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168040' dat... Kato
I wonder how it would be possible to be a true ex... Somey Telling of what?
Sorry, that was just a knee-jerk ... Daniel Brandt
Anyway, I assume you're referring to [url=htt... Somey He's a wannabe spy, or maybe a real one. I can... Herschelkrustofsky
Doug Birch, "Master of the Politics of Para... CharlotteWebb Or, more generally:
I wonder how it would be poss... Milton Roe
Or, more generally:
I wonder how it would be pos... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='CharlotteWebb' post='168118' date='M... Milton Roe
This is one of those Deja Vu to the N-th Power pl... GlassBeadGame
...settle in on the [size=3][color=red]SINGLE be... Heat
I wonder how it would be possible to be a true e... Herschelkrustofsky
[i]nobody likes Larouche, and Larouche doesn... Hell Freezes Over
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in ... Jon Awbrey
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168236' dat... Son of a Yeti
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... Moulton Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in A... Herschelkrustofsky
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... Herschelkrustofsky
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... nobs
...Nobs even implied Chip had some connection to ... dtobias
Mr. Hell Freezes Over
That's Ms. Hell Freeze... Jon Awbrey
As I have said before, I will respond to any evi... Herschelkrustofsky
As I have said before, I will respond to any evi... CharlotteWebb
In the LaRouche II case, I freely admitted sharin... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' dat... GlassBeadGame
You shared a computer with him at work, and you... Mackan
Do you think it was only you? They always did tha... The Adversary
[quote name='The Adversary' post='167754' date='S... Jon Awbrey
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Lar
"SV wants a reevaluation of her conflicts o... Somey Kato, you need to stop posting here without checki... Kato
This latest "enemy's enemy" meme i... Hell Freezes Over
This latest "enemy's enemy" meme is... The Joy
[quote name='Somey' post='167678' date='Sun 12th ... Hell Freezes Over
I Googled "Eurasian Land Bridge" and fo... The Joy
[quote name='The Joy' post='167690' date='Sun 12t... Jon Awbrey
When Jon says there are no Wikipedia policies, I ... Herschelkrustofsky
I notice that Pro-LaRouche editors [url=http://en... Hell Freezes Over
SV's reaction to Dking's excesses was to ... CharlotteWebb My best guess is that continued exposure to the da... dtobias
and the Beatles, generals of a literal "Brit... LessHorrid vanU
and the Beatles, generals of a literal "Bri... Sarcasticidealist Luckily the Americans responded with the clean cut... dtobias
this dog won't hunt either
I don't thin... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167623' da... Jon Awbrey I have about as much interest in Lyndon LaRouche a... dtobias
...Lex Luthor...
The Earth-2 Golden Age version... Jon Awbrey
… Lex Luthor …
The Earth-2 Golden ... EricBarbour This is pointless. And pathetic.
She's playin... Bottled_Spider This is pointless. And pathetic.
She's playin... Heat Now this isn't fair. Hell promised to answer m... Somey Now this isn't fair. Hell promised to answer m... The Adversary
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Heat What I don't understand HK is why, given the n... Herschelkrustofsky Your logic is plausible, but your conclusions are ... Jon Awbrey
Your logic is plausible, but your conclusions are... Somey Quite so. However, I must correct my earlier post ... Kato
Quite so. However, I must correct my earlier post... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Somey' post='167935' date='Mon 13th ... Herschelkrustofsky Revisiting all this history has made me nostalgic.... Rhindle Ok, let's see if I have this straight.
HK: La... Kato
Cberlet is praised by "the Cabal" for k... Herschelkrustofsky
HK, at worst, wants LaRouche-related subjects to ... Herschelkrustofsky To be fair, Cberlet didn't control the article... Random832 Cberlet didn't control the articles in questio... Milton Roe
Cberlet didn't control the articles in questi... Somey I believe it has been mentioned that the fastest w... Cla68
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vi... Lar
I guess you've confirmed that you have a pers... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Somey' post='168100' date='Tue 14th ... CharlotteWebb All this talk of cocaine, gays, and baseball bats ... the fieryangel
Yes, that edit summary was a BLP violation, thoug... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168243' dat... Heat
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168243' da... the fieryangel
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168262' dat... Sarcasticidealist "NPOV" is supposed to include all positi... the fieryangel
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168268' date='... Sarcasticidealist So, I believe that my description fits into the sp... the fieryangel
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168270' date='... Sarcasticidealist except in the article about the "Theory that ... Hell Freezes Over
I really fail to see how LaRouche publications an... the fieryangel
We can only include e.g. women in lists of oper... Hell Freezes Over
Well, people have written about it, but the info... the fieryangel
I don't know enough to be able to answer, exc... Jon Awbrey
I'll say it for you: this article is misleadi... Newyorkbrad
except in the article about the "Theory that... dtobias
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168280' date='... Hell Freezes Over
"NPOV" is supposed to include all posit... Hell Freezes Over
The question is would Britannica allow someone wh... Heat
The question is would Britannica allow someone w... Jon Awbrey
the Beetles were some kind of front for British i... Heat
Britannica doesn't have detailed articles on... nobs
By neutral, all we mean is that we publish the vi... GlassBeadGame
"We have another purpose in fighting AIDS,... Kelly Martin I guess you've confirmed that you have a perso... Jon Awbrey Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of t... Sarcasticidealist Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of t... Jon Awbrey
Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of... Lar [quote name='Kato' post='168338' date='Wed 15th Ap... Heat
I have issues with single-purpose accounts who tu... Jon Awbrey
I have issues with single-purpose accounts who tu... Herschelkrustofsky
2. Admin tools were used on those articles by adm... Heat
[quote name='Kato' post='168350' date='Wed 15th A... Milton Roe
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168354' dat... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Heat' post='168490' date='Wed 15th A... Heat [quote name='dtobias' post='168332' date='Wed 15th... Kato
But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-ban... Random832 But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-bann... Cla68
But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-ban... Heat
[quote name='Random832' post='168346' date='Wed 1... Jon Awbrey
Slim has been very critical of Checkuser abuse bu... Herschelkrustofsky
I'd say that the next step is, how can Wikip... Cla68
I'd say that the next step is, how can Wiki... dtobias
I don't think Jayjg has ever edited them -- h... Jon Awbrey
I don't think Jayjg has ever edited them ââ... Herschelkrustofsky Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet webs... EricBarbour Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet webs... GlassBeadGame
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet web... Jon Awbrey
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet we... Hell Freezes Over
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet web... Herschelkrustofsky
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet we... Herschelkrustofsky I posted that for the benefit of my esteemed colle... Moulton She's quite good at pushing your angry buttons... Jon Awbrey So here comes Hell Freezes Over, acting like every... The Joy 2. Admin tools were used on those articles by admi... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote=Hell Freezes Over]2. Admin tools were used... Newyorkbrad
Technically, the rules permit involved admins to ... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168416' da... Newyorkbrad
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168416' d... Heat
[quote name='Jon Awbrey' post='168443' date='Wed ... Newyorkbrad
[quote name='Jon Awbrey' post='168443' date='Wed... Noroton
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts re... dtobias
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts re... Heat
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts r... The Joy Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through... dtobias
Dante's Inferno: Canto III
I'm in Dan T... Herschelkrustofsky By remarkable coincidence, SV is doing a reprise o... CharlotteWebb But, like... I thought Baykal was too deep to buil... Cla68
By remarkable coincidence, SV is doing a reprise ... CharlotteWebb
Hmm... somehow I doubt he is in a position to gra... Herschelkrustofsky
Anyway, SV and Will really don't seem to like... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='179629' date='Sun 21st ... Herschelkrustofsky
What's the correct name for LaRouche's br... CharlotteWebb
Who is NE2? [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='179665' date='Sun 21st ... Herschelkrustofsky Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, th... Kato
Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, t... Somey Not me, Hersch. That was Somey who likely knows mo... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Kato' post='179698' date='Sun 21st J... Random832 So, your argument is that this photo, from the LaR... CharlotteWebb
SlimVirgin & Co. probably want folks to belie... Achromatic
Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, t... GlassBeadGame I just don't get it. The largest engineering ... CharlotteWebb
National Geographic did one of their neat graphic... GlassBeadGame
I mean unless all the wine-drinkers live in coa... Herschelkrustofsky
Container ships seem like a much better way to li... gomi [Moderator's note: the wine-realted posts have... dogbiscuit Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your "n... It's the blimp, Frank
Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your ... dogbiscuit
Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your ... Random832 But also the backgrounds don't match -- the bi... dogbiscuit
[quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='179... It's the blimp, Frank I dunno. My hypothesis could be wrong. Or maybe in...
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