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Paid editing, finally gets a full discussion |
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thekohser |
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Jimbo has kicked it up a notch. The battle over whether or not to allow paid editing on Wikipedia, two-and-a-half years after I made it famous, is now being fought tooth and nail. Jimmy Wales kicked it up a notch, declaring "policy" where he (probably) no longer holds the reputation capital to pull it off. The current box score: Paid editing - 52 Jimmy Wales - 22. In American football, that's a blowout, folks. What I'm wondering -- where the heck are JzG, Calton, and Sam Blanning? We need those guys to get the fire REALLY HOT. As for Jimbo's comment... I enjoy how in paragraph two he says, "I think the opening statement on this page is a red herring." Then in paragraph three he says, "Are we free and independent scribes doing our best to record all human knowledge? Or are we paid shills. I know what I choose." Also, "Just imagine the disaster for our reputation." Spoken like someone who knows intimately about disasters and reputations. This post has been edited by thekohser:
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TungstenCarbide |
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Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 11th June 2009, 2:40am) As for Jimbo's comment... I enjoy how in paragraph two he says, "I think the opening statement on this page is a red herring." Then in paragraph three he says, "Are we free and independent scribes doing our best to record all human knowledge? Or are we paid shills. I know what I choose." Oh . My . God. Jimbo's been suckleling at the teat for years now; from speaking fees to Russian massage parlors to Wikia to pussy. "we" This is the first I've heard of Jimbo being a humble scribe.
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Cock-up-over-conspiracy |
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Now censored by flckr.com and who else ... ???
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Interesting ... the third person to become involved in this debate is the David 'Shankbone' Miller himself who we recently discussed receiving big hand outs, and multiple opportunities of professional advancement, care of the Israeli government. Sadly, there are none of his pictures of pissing Zionist goats or engorged genitalia in this topic though. All the same, I am pretty sure that you could find perverts who would pay to have pictures of their genitals on a top ranking website like the Wikipedia. Could I just flag up a little inequality and imbalance here, what he and they are, basically, say is "we get paid to write, shoot sponsored photos, stretch the limits of what are 'facts' or what is 'PR' or not, use the Wikipedia for our own personal advancement ... the lowly serfs then have to pay with their time to police us for free and the unpaid janitors (admins) waste their time over the disputes that will arise". Time is also money. Likewise, could someone also widen the discussion that not all "paid for" editing and POV creation is "paid for" per se ... palm greasing comes in many subtle forms as above; sponsorship, back scratching, blow jobs etc. QUOTE Users who endorse this summary:
rootology ©(T) 19:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC) SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC) >David Shankbone 19:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC) QUOTE Statement by David Shankbone
I have always supported paid editing if you can get that work. Unfortunately, in the past the person/people most associated with paid editing are unpleasant and disliked; thus, the issue has been paired with them.
It's time to review the idea outside of the past, and ask why our other policies and guidelines will not take care of perceived WP:COI issues. They would. Paid editing happens; only diligent review of material for NPOV, V and OR will circumvent problems with any of our material, paid or unpaid. -->David Shankbone 19:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC) And surely spoken like a true whore ... QUOTE At the end of the day, our core policies are our core policies, and collusion--for whatever motivation--to circumvent our core policies is cause for sanctions. I think Root's main point with this RFC is that ... money is no more odious an incentive than fandom, love, identification or ideology ... for writing about a subject. -->David Shankbone 20:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC) This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy:
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Milton Roe |
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Known alias of J. Random Troll
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QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Wed 10th June 2009, 9:25pm) And surely spoken like a true whore ... QUOTE At the end of the day, our core policies are our core policies, and collusion--for whatever motivation--to circumvent our core policies is cause for sanctions. I think Root's main point with this RFC is that ... money is no more odious an incentive than fandom, love, identification or ideology ... for writing about a subject. -->David Shankbone 20:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Time for the Devil's Advocate bit. While I'm no fan of Shankbone or his work, I do happen to agree with his specific sentiment, above. Moreover, I see nothing wrong with "whores" (though it's a rather loaded word). Whores of various sorts can be (though are not always) refreshingly honest. There are far worse things than honest whores, and one of them is dishonest whores. Let COIs be declared and caveat emptor (or lector). Furthermore, if somebody like Shankbone says that time is money, that doesn't mean it's not true. (IMG: http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Shrlocc/einstein.gif)
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Somey |
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Can't actually moderate (or even post)
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 10th June 2009, 11:52pm) Time for the Devil's Advocate bit. While I'm no fan of Shankbone or his work, I do happen to agree with his specific sentiment... But it's still self-serving, because of the classic Wikipedian conflation tactic. In fact, money really is a more odious incentive than love (I'm sure Greg would tell you the same thing), and probably more odious than fandom, though that depends on what the person is a fan of. It's significantly less odious than ideology, though that depends on where you're sitting ideologically. As for "identification," by that he presumably means that people who are "in the closet" in terms of sexual orientation should be forced out of the closet by people like Shankers himself, or at least that's what Shankers' past actions would tend to suggest. And money is far less odious an incentive than that, at least in my opinion. QUOTE Furthermore, if somebody like Shankbone says that time is money, that doesn't mean it's not true. It's a "humanocentric" statement, though, which depends on an individual's time being such that a dollar amount can be assigned to it. This is essentially what Jimbo is afraid of, and indeed what he should be afraid of. If unpaid editors start having to work with editors who are being paid, they're going to start thinking that maybe voluntarism isn't all it's cracked up to be. In reality it has nothing to do with the integrity of the paid editors; rather it has everything to do with the simmering resentment of the unpaid ones, and the attrition that will probably result. Remember, they could have allowed this years ago, and think of all the money they all could have made in the meantime. I'm thinking maybe hundreds of dollars! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif)
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thekohser |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 11th June 2009, 1:35am) Remember, they could have allowed this years ago, and think of all the money they all could have made in the meantime. I'm thinking maybe hundreds of dollars! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif) Well, it's probably more like a couple thousand dollars... but, who's arguing? As for the mind-set of a true, underground Wikipedia paid editor... let me give you the insight in my mind. When I am under contract with a person or corporation to write an article about said person or corporation, I have very, very, very little interest in presenting an "advocacy" position on behalf of that entity. Rather, success is measured in durability within Wikipedia, so my highest priority is... ...wait for it... ...because this is important... ...many, many hours of learning have gone into this outcome, so you'd better appreciate it... How do I write (and publish) this article in such a way that it passes WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, and all the other WP:things, while simultaneously NOT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THE HIVE?Guess what? The articles that result are pretty bland, not puff pieces, quite encyclopedic, and (ever since I learned this technique) 100% durable within Wikipedia -- with surprisingly little follow-up maintenance, and likewise lasting appreciation of my clients. That's why Jimmy Wales is such a one-dimensionally thinking man, that he feels the need to frame my work as "paid shill" and the like. In order to rally his equally one-dimensional followers, he has to demonize the paid editing effort, because it is potentially, in fact, so non-sinister in its undetectability. My paid content is virtually indistinguishable from the other crap on Wikipedia, except for the fact that, perhaps, it is of a higher encyclopedic and "neutral" quality. So, thanks to Rootology, we've got our drama-of-the-week on Wikipedia, and I'm free to go back to paid editing that is undetectable and indistinguishable within the world's most irresponsible encyclopedia.
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Somey |
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 11th June 2009, 9:06am) How do I write (and publish) this article in such a way that it passes WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, and all the other WP:things, while simultaneously NOT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THE HIVE?
Guess what? The articles that result are pretty bland, not puff pieces, quite encyclopedic, and (ever since I learned this technique) 100% durable within Wikipedia -- with surprisingly little follow-up maintenance, and likewise lasting appreciation of my clients. Well, I would have pointed that out too, but I didn't want to give away any trade secrets! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) But yes, I believe you're absolutely right - a "paid editor" is going to have a huge incentive to produce highly-finished articles on practically the initial (new-page) edit (so as to avoid attention from RC patrollers), keep his/her head down in general, and not get into serious arguments with anyone over anything, if at all possible. Whereas someone who's known to be getting paid who is also argumentative and "tendentious" probably isn't going to be getting paid for long, and should probably look for a new line of work.
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Cla68 |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 11th June 2009, 2:19pm) QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 11th June 2009, 9:06am) How do I write (and publish) this article in such a way that it passes WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, and all the other WP:things, while simultaneously NOT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THE HIVE?
Guess what? The articles that result are pretty bland, not puff pieces, quite encyclopedic, and (ever since I learned this technique) 100% durable within Wikipedia -- with surprisingly little follow-up maintenance, and likewise lasting appreciation of my clients. Well, I would have pointed that out too, but I didn't want to give away any trade secrets! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) But yes, I believe you're absolutely right - a "paid editor" is going to have a huge incentive to produce highly-finished articles on practically the initial (new-page) edit (so as to avoid attention from RC patrollers), keep his/her head down in general, and not get into serious arguments with anyone over anything, if at all possible. Whereas someone who's known to be getting paid who is also argumentative and "tendentious" probably isn't going to be getting paid for long, and should probably look for a new line of work. This is my point exactly. Openly POV-pushing advocates of a certain position, person, or organization, like Jayjg or Jossi, eventually get noticed, dealt with, and their articles receive a lot of negative attention and scrutiny. That's why it would be best for a paid editor to make sure that the article follows Wikipedia's rules to the "T". I suspect that Shankbone supports paid editing because he wants to actually be paid for doing it. Well, that goes for me too. As long as he or anyone else follows the rules, I don't care. This comment on the subject is a good one. This post has been edited by Cla68:
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thekohser Paid editing Eva Destruction
Starting a new thread, since this is likely to be... thekohser
I don't think the software can handle that â... sbrown
I already see several veiled and not-so-veiled in... Jon Awbrey
Starting a new thread, since this is likely to be... Hipocrite
They claim that they aren't opposed to expert... thekohser
[quote name='thekohser' post='177755' date='Tue 9... Somey You aren't an expert in the fields of PR or Et... thekohser
You aren't an expert in the fields of PR or E... EricBarbour Golly, could it possibly be that you don't act... Hipocrite
Besides, Market Research has lots to do with PR, ... Somey Being an expert in Market Research does not make o... EricBarbour Well, if it helps, I'd go there and point out ... anthony
Well, if it helps, I'd go there and point out... EricBarbour
"Why is he community banned?"
"Bec... RMHED
Starting a new thread, since this is likely to be... Eva Destruction
[quote name='thekohser' post='177755' date='Tue 9... thekohser This comment by FayssalF is hilarious.
He advises... A Horse With No Name The RfC is a complete waste of time. And if you lo... thekohser
Believe me, it is very, very easy to spot which a... A Horse With No Name
Believe me, it is very, very easy to spot which ... Jon Awbrey
Jimbo has kicked it up a notch.
Are we free an... carbuncle
So, thanks to Rootology, we've got our drama-... EricBarbour I suspect that Shankbone supports paid editing bec... Cock-up-over-conspiracy I suspect that Shankbone supports paid editing bec... Cock-up-over-conspiracy FayssalF leads the 'charge' (ho ... ho ...... thekohser
FayssalF leads the 'charge' (ho ... ho ..... Cock-up-over-conspiracy You're not even reading my posts, are you, Coc... trenton
That's why Jimmy Wales is such a one-dimensio... Guido den Broeder
Jimbo has kicked it up a notch.
Ah, his 'advo... A Horse With No Name
Also, "Just imagine the disaster for our re... thekohser Oh, Jeez. Shut it down. It's over. Jimbo ju... sbrown
Jimbo just got consecutive supports from:
[b][si... carbuncle
Um, is this the same Sam Blacketer recently embro... Guido den Broeder Unless, of course, you get paid to write a biased ... thekohser Is this comment a joke?
Cedric
Is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title... TungstenCarbide
Is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title... The Wales Hunter Paid editing de facto exists anyway.
Does anyone ... Jon Awbrey I think it's kinda weird that you guys can... Cla68
I think it's kinda weird that you guys can... Jon Awbrey
I think it's kinda weird that you guys can... Cock-up-over-conspiracy I think it's kinda weird that you guys can... Jon Awbrey
I suspect the "under table reference" r... The Joy Ah, Jimbo's response to Rootology is great. :... thekohser And, in typical Wikipedia fashion, when the vote i... thekohser Our young Filipino chess guy who runs Yahoo! A... CharlotteWebb
Okay, so then why are you against the "eve... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Coming soon ... (especially if we purchase wikiped... Milton Roe
[center][img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3348/... Moulton Cock up, why don't you try Photobucket? Maybe... Cock-up-over-conspiracy I don't know Photobucket ...
Of course that i... thekohser Wow... User:Dcoetzee actually gets it. Spot on. Floydsvoid
Wow... User:Dcoetzee actually gets it. Spot on.
... Malleus
What the hell is the problem here?
The problem i... LaraLove
What the hell is the problem here?
The problem ... Malleus
[quote name='Malleus' post='179379' date='Thu 18t... taiwopanfob What the hell is the problem here?
Based on the o... Floydsvoid
It would be interesting indeed if somehow Jimbo c... Cock-up-over-conspiracy The difference between Wikipedia and open-source p... Malleus
What the hell is the problem here?
Based on the ... EricBarbour Based on the open-source experience, professional ... UseOnceAndDestroy By trade I am a programmer. I contribute a lot of... Cock-up-over-conspiracy [b]Wikipedia has a random mob and an objective to ... thekohser Equally amazing is Jimbo's willingness to go ... thekohser I wonder how long before Wikipedia is hosting its ... tarantino
I wonder how long before Wikipedia is hosting its... SarekOfVulcan Meanwhile, crap like Chicagowebmanagement is overl... carbuncle The for-pay articles that have been sent to AFD se... tarantino
The for-pay articles that have been sent to AFD s... Milton Roe
The for-pay articles that have been sent to AFD ... tarantino
[quote name='carbuncle' post='179283' date='Thu 1... tarantino There's a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index... Appleby
the rest of his known accounts were globally bloc... Kato
[quote name='tarantino' post='195285' date='Mon 2... Appleby
Do they have independence? Give examples.
Plenty... thekohser I'm fine with these articles being deleted as ... LaraLove
I'm fine with these articles being deleted as... Milton Roe
And I hate Heracio Cane. Casting David Caruso for... thekohser This Elance site is becoming the "Kick Me... thekohser I'm finally on the comment board! Rhindle http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid... Malleus
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldi... Rhindle
[quote name='Rhindle' post='182552' date='Wed 8th... Malleus
I know that. I just found it amusing that this g... thekohser I really got a kick out of this guy's position... Malleus
Sounds like a really savvy encyclopedist with a k... Milton Roe
Sounds like a really savvy encyclopedist with a ... thekohser And, of course, the predictable and ultimate coup:... tarantino A group of paid editors has responded by releasing... Kato I'm copying the whole thing, because I can... thekohser Jesus, do they get paid by the word or something? LaraLove
Jesus, do they get paid by the word or something?... Adambro So how do I go about getting paid? Wouldn't mi... thekohser
So how do I go about getting paid? Wouldn't m... tarantino
[quote name='Adambro' post='183708' date='Mon 13t... thekohser
[quote name='Adambro' post='183708' date='Mon 13... thekohser
So how do I go about getting paid? Wouldn't m... Somey Jesus, do they get paid by the word or something?
... LaraLove
Roger Davies is currently offering US$250 ea... thekohser
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Boun... LaraLove
[quote name='LaraLove' post='183915' date='Tue 14... Eva Destruction
[quote name='LaraLove' post='183915' date='Tue 14... thekohser
Incidentally, this initiative has proved so succe... thekohser So, the Wikipediots try to "nutshell" th... thekohser Jimbo has really honed his skill at deflection on ... The Wales Hunter
Jimbo has really honed his skill at deflection on... carbuncle
[quote name='thekohser' post='213967' date='Wed 6... tarantino Jimmy Wales was recently in London to give the key... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Back in 2007, when Freud Communications was caught... Straightforward
Matthew Freud's grandfather was Sigmund Freud... Milton Roe
Jimmy Wales was recently in London to give the ke... tarantino
Hmmm. If you look at user:80.169.89.66 on WP it... Kelly Martin Hmmm. If you look at user:80.169.89.66 on WP [url=... Milton Roe
Hmmm. If you look at user:80.169.89.66 on WP [url... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Elsewhere, there is Jimmy Wales flatteringly quoti... Milton Roe
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='228425' date='Th... CharlotteWebb
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg231/sonitnar... Peter Damian
Jimmy Wales was recently in London to give the ke... Milton Roe
It seems certain that the 'friend' that W... Jon Awbrey
Jimmy Wales was recently in London to give the ke... thekohser
Back in 2007, when Freud Communications was caugh... Somey Jimbo may even 'impregnate' you!
Yes, ... carbuncle
The analogy fails to point out that some people o... thekohser This is delicious, though I'm strangely not fi... thekohser You know, buried in that message is something that... Cock-up-over-conspiracy German COLT Telcom are one of the UKs largest inte... thekohser Consider a summer intern doing Wikipedia editing w... carbuncle
Consider a summer intern doing Wikipedia editing ... thekohser It has been a while since I last overtly marketed ... melloden
It has been a while since I last overtly marketed... thekohser
What're your current keywords?
How will that... melloden
What're your current keywords?
How will tha... thekohser
Oh, right--I forgot that you seem not to like me ... EricBarbour
Oh, right--I forgot that you seem not to like me ... thekohser
Do you have some keyword ideas, or no?
Have you... melloden
Oh, right--I forgot that you seem not to like me... Gruntled
or maybe because you just don't like me?
Non... thekohser
or maybe because you just don't like me?
No... melloden
[quote name='Gruntled' post='275875' date='Mon 30... thekohser
Poor Greg, he doesn't even love himself :(
... Somey Well, would it be helpful if all the keywords I ga... Abd Right now, for example, if you do a Google search ... thekohser Take a look at Slide 11 of this research output th... Abd Take a look at [url=http://www.slideshare.net/jant... thekohser With all of the grace of a bison in a crystal shop... The Joy
With all of the grace of a bison in a crystal sho... Zoloft <snip> Who cares how the sausage is made?
I... Kelly Martin So what this tells us is that Jimbo pays no attent... EricBarbour Not I.
Wanna see a prime chunk of "slant... milowent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jim...days_... thekohser
Thank you, Jimbo, for being so completely wrong ... milowent [quote name='thekohser' date='Wed 31st... thekohser Jimbo happens to mention the New York Times' o... thekohser ArbCom twit, Coren, also shows his profound lack o... EricBarbour What is it with Coren and Jimbo and other Wikipedi... thekohser
[quote name='thekohser' post='283924' date='Wed 3... EricBarbour Eric, I will actually do that (or some reasonable ... Floydsvoid
"[b]Jimbo, what is Wikipedia's stance on... iii
Paid editing is a problem for Wikipedia because ... Detective
Paid editing is a problem for Wikipedia because t... iii
Of course, in both cases the contributions were f... Kelly Martin Advocacy editing is essential to Wikipedia's o... Detective
It's simply not permitted to notice that the ...
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