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The Herschelkrustofsky ban revisited, SV and her posse at work |
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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I am posting this in response to comments made by Hell Freezes Over in some recent threads. 9 days ago, this page at Wikipedia was deleted. Don't ask me why. It provided a useful chronology of how I was driven off the project. It included a description of my role in the Nobs01 and others arbcom case. I was the only respondent who was not named in the proposed findings of fact. If I had kept my mouth shut, nothing would have happened to me. Because I insisted on speaking out, asserting that the penalties doled out by the arbcom were inequitable (Cberlet was "cautioned," others who had committed comparable offenses were blocked or placed on probation,) I was place on indefinite probation. Fred Bauder justified this decision in the following way: QUOTE 15) In view of the dissatisfaction expressed by Herschelkrustofsky with the decisions reached in this case, and the apparent lack of insight into any role his own behavior played in the creation and aggravation of the problems which gave rise to this case, he is placed indefinitely on Wikipedia:Probation. Since this was a little too obvious, Raul654 covered the tracks with this edit.This action set the stage for what followed. Slim and Will Beback began wikistalking me to various articles, accusing me of adding ideas which they alleged were similar to ideas advocated at one time or another by LaRouche (see Searching for LaRouche under the bed.) They were assisted by 172 (T-C-L-K-R-D)
in setting a trap for me (into which I foolishly walked) at Synarchism (T-H-L-K-D). The article did not mention LaRouche, until 172 added a bunch of defamatory crap about LaRouche, which I should have ignored, because the article has probably been read by about six people. But, I removed it, and was charged with "editing a LaRouche-related article," in violation of probation. I protested that it was not a LaRouche-related article, and Slim's response was [paraphrase]"It is now."[/paraphrase] Now, you can still read this page, some great stuff which I excerpted from the ANI board. The admin who deleted my user page missed it. Hurry! Also, as a sort of postscript, this one, extracted from User talk:SlimVirgin.
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Replies
Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Sat 11th April 2009, 10:16pm)
This action set the stage for what followed. Slim and Will Beback began wikistalking me to various articles, accusing me of adding ideas which they alleged were similar to ideas advocated at one time or another by LaRouche ...
Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts me in an awkward position. I'm able to show that you had a serious conflict of interest (not just as a LaRouche follower), and that you misled people about your sockpuppets, but doing that would require me to post material that leads to a name, home address, telephone number, and place of work. I'd be banned if I were to do that. So let me simply ask you this instead. Do you believe Lyndon LaRouche is a reliable source (in Wikipedia terms or in any other)? Do you believe his views should be added to WP articles? Do you believe WP articles should be created about his real or proposed projects, when his publications are the only sources that mention them?
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Somey |
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Can't actually moderate (or even post)
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QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Sat 11th April 2009, 9:58pm) Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts me in an awkward position. I'm able to show that you had a serious conflict of interest (not just as a LaRouche follower), and that you misled people about your sockpuppets, but doing that would require me to post material that leads to a name, home address, telephone number, and place of work. I'd be banned if I were to do that. If you're defining "conflict of interest" as Wikipedia defines it, we already know all about that. HK has (obviously) made no secret about his political affiliations, and if you managed to find an article or photo or musical composition of his that appeared on some Larouche-related website or other publication, well, congratulations. But that doesn't mean he's being paid by them, or has a title, or anything like that. Larouche supporters are nothing if not generous when it comes to contributing content, after all. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif) Nobody here (well, hardly anybody) is particularly sanguine on the question of HK's ties to the Larouche Movement, but he's never threatened anyone here with even a whiff of sanction for disagreeing with him about any of that stuff. So, since he admits to it, and he's doing no harm here (or elsewhere, AFAIK, other than the occasional campaign contribution), what's the point of even bringing it up, other than to pursue your standard half-baked innuendo and conspiratorial hoo-ha campaign? Long story short, this dog won't hunt either. I wouldn't want HK or his pals running my country, and neither should you, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have the same rights to express his opinions as anyone else.
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 12th April 2009, 4:21am) QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Sat 11th April 2009, 9:58pm) Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts me in an awkward position. I'm able to show that you had a serious conflict of interest (not just as a LaRouche follower), and that you misled people about your sockpuppets, but doing that would require me to post material that leads to a name, home address, telephone number, and place of work. I'd be banned if I were to do that. If you're defining "conflict of interest" as Wikipedia defines it, we already know all about that. HK has (obviously) made no secret about his political affiliations, and if you managed to find an article or photo or musical composition of his that appeared on some Larouche-related website or other publication, well, congratulations. But that doesn't mean he's being paid by them, or has a title, or anything like that. Larouche supporters are nothing if not generous when it comes to contributing content, after all. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif) Nobody here (well, hardly anybody) is particularly sanguine on the question of HK's ties to the Larouche Movement, but he's never threatened anyone here with even a whiff of sanction for disagreeing with him about any of that stuff. So, since he admits to it, and he's doing no harm here (or elsewhere, AFAIK, other than the occasional campaign contribution), what's the point of even bringing it up, other than to pursue your standard half-baked innuendo and conspiratorial hoo-ha campaign? Long story short, this dog won't hunt either. I wouldn't want HK or his pals running my country, and neither should you, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have the same rights to express his opinions as anyone else. Somey, I'm not talking about creating non-notable stuff, or POV stuff, or COI stuff. I am talking about someone *inventing* things. Making them up. Even you who wants to defend HK can surely see that that is problematic. Not least because, if he can do it there, he can do it here. If I'm wrong -- if this is just my "half-baked innuendo" -- I hope HK will explain what (and where) the Eurasian Land-Bridge is, and what Helga Zepp-LaRouche (of the [[Schiller Institute]], which HK is also involved with) is standing next to in that image. The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is that HK started a thread about his ban, with that as the title. And so I am giving just one example of why the ban is justified.
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Somey |
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Can't actually moderate (or even post)
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QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Sat 11th April 2009, 11:28pm) If I'm wrong -- if this is just my "half-baked innuendo" -- I hope HK will explain what (and where) the Eurasian Land-Bridge is, and what Helga Zepp-LaRouche (of the [[Schiller Institute]], which HK is also involved with) is standing next to in that image. There's a whole butt-load of web pages on that Schiller Institute site about this so-called "landbridge" - it looks like they're trying to propose some sort of express rail-freight line from China to Europe, which (I'm guessing, though educatedly so) probably involves a lot of standardization of railroad gauges and various other unlikely things. The inscription on the monument is obviously photoshopped. Are you just wanting him to admit that? This is the Larouche Movement, SV - we should be glad they didn't put her in front of the First Manned Base on Mars. QUOTE The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is that HK started a thread about his ban, with that as the title. And so I am giving just one example of why the ban is justified. Well, maybe it is. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif) In other words, you're saying this landbridge proposal is basically a scam to get people to donate money to the Larouche Movement, right? Why not just say so? He (assuming it really was HK) clearly didn't just "make it up" out of whole cloth, the way you'd make up an article on Kitten Huffing or something. It may be he's been deluded into thinking this landbridge thing is very, very real, or he may just be a tool of the Vast Larouche Conspiracy, but that still doesn't mean your (and Wikipedia's) reaction was proportional to the offense. In any event, this Larouche stuff is hardly a major focus of WR, though I will at least admit that if it weren't for HK and his experiences on WP, we probably wouldn't hear much (if anything) about it here at all. So... happy?
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Hell Freezes Over |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 12th April 2009, 4:49am) There's a whole butt-load of web pages on that Schiller Institute site about this so-called "landbridge" - it looks like they're trying to propose some sort of express rail-freight line from China to Europe, which (I'm guessing, though educatedly so) probably involves a lot of standardization of railroad gauges and various other unlikely things. The inscription on the monument is obviously photoshopped. Are you just wanting him to admit that? This is the Larouche Movement, SV - we should be glad they didn't put her in front of the First Manned Base on Mars ... In other words, you're saying this so-called landbridge proposal is basically a scam to get people to donate money to the Larouche Movement, right? ...
I'm giving just *one* example. How much of this stuff would you need before a ban becomes proportional? We were never able to work out what the Eurasian Land-Bridge was. Herschelkrustofsky writes that construction has begun: "Following a conference held in China in 1996, which was addressed by Helga Zepp LaRouche, construction began in earnest." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...e&oldid=3820805Despite being asked many times by several editors, he was never able to say *where* construction had begun, but he also didn't say, "hang on, perhaps I've made a mistake." No, he continued trying to have the page say what he wanted, with no sources other than LaRouche -- who also doesn't say where construction has begun, so far as I can tell.
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CharlotteWebb |
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Postmaster General
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QUOTE(Hell Freezes Over @ Sun 12th April 2009, 4:58am) Despite being asked many times by several editors, he was never able to say *where* construction had begun, but he also didn't say, "hang on, perhaps I've made a mistake." No, he continued trying to have the page say what he wanted, with no sources other than LaRouche -- who also doesn't say where construction has begun, so far as I can tell.
Hey I think I might have found part of it, but why'd they have to build it there, Hersch? The tree-huggers will have a fit! Sorry for the thread necro but I'm still trying to figure out what else could be passing over Ushan'i Island on the surface of Lake Baykal. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Mon 13th April 2009, 8:06pm) This is merely daytime entertainment, while she waits to get her admin power backnext month. Then you'll see a lot less of her on this forum. Yeah.
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Posts in this topic
Herschelkrustofsky The Herschelkrustofsky ban revisited Jon Awbrey
I am posting this in response to comments made by... CharlotteWebb
9 days ago, this page at Wikipedia was deleted. D... Heat
Of course he missed it. He wasn't born yet.
... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167623' da... Kato
Your opening a thread about your WP editing puts ... Hell Freezes Over
Shouldn't edits be judged on their merits?
... Kato
Very much so. What do you think about this articl... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167668' dat... Kato
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167668' da... Hell Freezes Over
I suppose other than putting the non-notable and... Herschelkrustofsky
Do you believe Lyndon LaRouche is a reliable sour... Hell Freezes Over
1. LaRouche's publications are reliable sour... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167722' da... Hell Freezes Over
I believe his views on any topic should be subjec... Somey Do you believe his own views ought to be added to ... Obesity
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167728' dat... CharlotteWebb
Here is the photo in question, which shows LaRouc... Mackan
[quote name='Mackan' post='167725' date='Sun 12th... Kato
The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is tha... Jon Awbrey
And so I am giving just one example of why the ba... Jon Awbrey
And so I am giving just one example of why the b... Somey I'm giving just *one* example. How much of thi... Jon Awbrey
The point of bringing it up, as you asked, is th... Kato
In any event, this Larouche stuff is hardly a maj... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Somey' post='167686' date='Sun 12th ... Hell Freezes Over
Like the last HK sockpuppet blocked by SlimVirgin... Kato
Kato, you need to stop posting here without check... Mackan I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he s... dtobias
Who escalates several reverts on a talk page by i... Jon Awbrey
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... The Adversary
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Herschelkrustofsky
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Hell Freezes Over
As I have said before, I will respond to any evid... dtobias
*Third case (2005) involving HK here http://en.wi... Cla68
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' dat... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' da... dtobias
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy.... Jon Awbrey
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy... dtobias
Psychological projection, anyone?
Gadzooks... The Joy
[quote name='dtobias' post='167865' date='Sun 12... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167863' da... EricBarbour
You don't even try to disguise the hypocrisy.... Cla68
Can you show me an edit from Cberlet that was alm... Shalom RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RANDOM CRAP
RA... Somey You all claim to care about BLP. Chip Berlet and t... Kato
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167863' dat... It's the blimp, Frank
The biography of Chip Berlet should be deleted. H... Hell Freezes Over
You all claim to care about BLP. Chip Berlet and ... Kato
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the prev... Herschelkrustofsky
It's very sad that he was given no support he... Kato Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least one... Heat
Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least on... Herschelkrustofsky
I think Berlet is a Reliable Source on Larouche. ... Kato
I think Berlet is a Reliable Source on Larouche.... Hell Freezes Over
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[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168053' da... Hell Freezes Over
Chip Berlet was someone who wrote for at least on... Heat
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th ... Hell Freezes Over
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Much worse than that. Once he set himself up a... nobs Slim: Let's cut to the quick (I just been info... EricBarbour Let's not confuse the cause of anti-communism ... Somey This is merely daytime entertainment, while she wa... Cla68
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='168062' date='M... It's the blimp, Frank
You never addressed my question from yesterday, w... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... the fieryangel
[quote name='Kato' post='168048' date='Mon 13th A... Jon Awbrey
Actually, I did come to this conclusion concernin... Somey He did ask that it be deleted, but it was kept.
Th... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168040' dat... Kato
I wonder how it would be possible to be a true ex... Somey Telling of what?
Sorry, that was just a knee-jerk ... Daniel Brandt
Anyway, I assume you're referring to [url=htt... Somey He's a wannabe spy, or maybe a real one. I can... Herschelkrustofsky
Doug Birch, "Master of the Politics of Para... CharlotteWebb Or, more generally:
I wonder how it would be poss... Milton Roe
Or, more generally:
I wonder how it would be pos... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='CharlotteWebb' post='168118' date='M... Milton Roe
This is one of those Deja Vu to the N-th Power pl... GlassBeadGame
...settle in on the [size=3][color=red]SINGLE be... Heat
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[i]nobody likes Larouche, and Larouche doesn... Hell Freezes Over
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in ... Jon Awbrey
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168236' dat... Son of a Yeti
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Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... Herschelkrustofsky
Now in the late 1960s, there was a big change in... nobs
...Nobs even implied Chip had some connection to ... dtobias
Mr. Hell Freezes Over
That's Ms. Hell Freeze... Jon Awbrey
As I have said before, I will respond to any evi... Herschelkrustofsky
As I have said before, I will respond to any evi... CharlotteWebb
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[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='167835' dat... GlassBeadGame
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[quote name='The Adversary' post='167754' date='S... Jon Awbrey
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Lar
"SV wants a reevaluation of her conflicts o... Somey Kato, you need to stop posting here without checki... Kato
This latest "enemy's enemy" meme i... Hell Freezes Over
This latest "enemy's enemy" meme is... The Joy
[quote name='Somey' post='167678' date='Sun 12th ... Hell Freezes Over
I Googled "Eurasian Land Bridge" and fo... The Joy
[quote name='The Joy' post='167690' date='Sun 12t... Jon Awbrey
When Jon says there are no Wikipedia policies, I ... Herschelkrustofsky
I notice that Pro-LaRouche editors [url=http://en... Hell Freezes Over
SV's reaction to Dking's excesses was to ... CharlotteWebb My best guess is that continued exposure to the da... dtobias
and the Beatles, generals of a literal "Brit... LessHorrid vanU
and the Beatles, generals of a literal "Bri... Sarcasticidealist Luckily the Americans responded with the clean cut... dtobias
this dog won't hunt either
I don't thin... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='167623' da... Jon Awbrey I have about as much interest in Lyndon LaRouche a... dtobias
...Lex Luthor...
The Earth-2 Golden Age version... Jon Awbrey
… Lex Luthor …
The Earth-2 Golden ... EricBarbour This is pointless. And pathetic.
She's playin... Bottled_Spider This is pointless. And pathetic.
She's playin... Heat Now this isn't fair. Hell promised to answer m... Somey Now this isn't fair. Hell promised to answer m... The Adversary
I wouldn't defend HK's editing, since he ... Heat What I don't understand HK is why, given the n... Herschelkrustofsky Your logic is plausible, but your conclusions are ... Jon Awbrey
Your logic is plausible, but your conclusions are... Somey Quite so. However, I must correct my earlier post ... Kato
Quite so. However, I must correct my earlier post... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Somey' post='167935' date='Mon 13th ... Herschelkrustofsky Revisiting all this history has made me nostalgic.... Rhindle Ok, let's see if I have this straight.
HK: La... Kato
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HK, at worst, wants LaRouche-related subjects to ... Herschelkrustofsky To be fair, Cberlet didn't control the article... Random832 Cberlet didn't control the articles in questio... Milton Roe
Cberlet didn't control the articles in questi... Somey I believe it has been mentioned that the fastest w... Cla68
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vi... Lar
I guess you've confirmed that you have a pers... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Somey' post='168100' date='Tue 14th ... CharlotteWebb All this talk of cocaine, gays, and baseball bats ... the fieryangel
Yes, that edit summary was a BLP violation, thoug... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168243' dat... Heat
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168243' da... the fieryangel
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168262' dat... Sarcasticidealist "NPOV" is supposed to include all positi... the fieryangel
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168268' date='... Sarcasticidealist So, I believe that my description fits into the sp... the fieryangel
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168270' date='... Sarcasticidealist except in the article about the "Theory that ... Hell Freezes Over
I really fail to see how LaRouche publications an... the fieryangel
We can only include e.g. women in lists of oper... Hell Freezes Over
Well, people have written about it, but the info... the fieryangel
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I'll say it for you: this article is misleadi... Newyorkbrad
except in the article about the "Theory that... dtobias
[quote name='the fieryangel' post='168280' date='... Hell Freezes Over
"NPOV" is supposed to include all posit... Hell Freezes Over
The question is would Britannica allow someone wh... Heat
The question is would Britannica allow someone w... Jon Awbrey
the Beetles were some kind of front for British i... Heat
Britannica doesn't have detailed articles on... nobs
By neutral, all we mean is that we publish the vi... GlassBeadGame
"We have another purpose in fighting AIDS,... Kelly Martin I guess you've confirmed that you have a perso... Jon Awbrey Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of t... Sarcasticidealist Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of t... Jon Awbrey
Of all the Whopping Idiocies in Wikiputia one of... Kato The main things I'm getting from this thread a... Cla68
The main things I'm getting from this thread ... Hell Freezes Over
We're starting to go off on a tangent about ... dtobias
You seem to reach decisions based entirely on whe... Hell Freezes Over You seem to reach decisions based entirely on whet... Kato That's right, I don't, and there's an ... Hell Freezes Over And you didn't think people would have a probl... Lar [quote name='Kato' post='168338' date='Wed 15th Ap... Kato And you didn't think people would have a probl... Hell Freezes Over
According to Wikipedia's great proclamations,... Heat
I have issues with single-purpose accounts who tu... Jon Awbrey
I have issues with single-purpose accounts who tu... Herschelkrustofsky
2. Admin tools were used on those articles by adm... Heat
[quote name='Kato' post='168350' date='Wed 15th A... Milton Roe
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='168354' dat... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Heat' post='168490' date='Wed 15th A... Heat [quote name='dtobias' post='168332' date='Wed 15th... Kato
But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-ban... Random832 But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-bann... Cla68
But with LaRouche, you want the experts topic-ban... Heat
[quote name='Random832' post='168346' date='Wed 1... Jon Awbrey
Slim has been very critical of Checkuser abuse bu... Herschelkrustofsky
I'd say that the next step is, how can Wikip... Cla68
I'd say that the next step is, how can Wiki... dtobias
I don't think Jayjg has ever edited them -- h... Jon Awbrey
I don't think Jayjg has ever edited them ââ... Herschelkrustofsky Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet webs... EricBarbour Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet webs... GlassBeadGame
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet web... Jon Awbrey
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet we... Hell Freezes Over
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet web... Herschelkrustofsky
Please note that Ms. Hell is using the Berlet we... Herschelkrustofsky I posted that for the benefit of my esteemed colle... Moulton She's quite good at pushing your angry buttons... Jon Awbrey So here comes Hell Freezes Over, acting like every... The Joy 2. Admin tools were used on those articles by admi... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote=Hell Freezes Over]2. Admin tools were used... Newyorkbrad
Technically, the rules permit involved admins to ... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168416' da... Newyorkbrad
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='168416' d... Heat
[quote name='Jon Awbrey' post='168443' date='Wed ... Newyorkbrad
[quote name='Jon Awbrey' post='168443' date='Wed... Noroton
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts re... dtobias
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts re... Heat
Because decoding many of Jon's other posts r... The Joy Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through... dtobias
Dante's Inferno: Canto III
I'm in Dan T... Herschelkrustofsky By remarkable coincidence, SV is doing a reprise o... CharlotteWebb But, like... I thought Baykal was too deep to buil... Cla68
By remarkable coincidence, SV is doing a reprise ... CharlotteWebb
Hmm... somehow I doubt he is in a position to gra... Herschelkrustofsky
Anyway, SV and Will really don't seem to like... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='179629' date='Sun 21st ... Herschelkrustofsky
What's the correct name for LaRouche's br... CharlotteWebb
Who is NE2? [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='179665' date='Sun 21st ... Herschelkrustofsky Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, th... Kato
Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, t... Somey Not me, Hersch. That was Somey who likely knows mo... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Kato' post='179698' date='Sun 21st J... Random832 So, your argument is that this photo, from the LaR... CharlotteWebb
SlimVirgin & Co. probably want folks to belie... Achromatic
Here's a link to a relatively detailed map, t... GlassBeadGame I just don't get it. The largest engineering ... CharlotteWebb
National Geographic did one of their neat graphic... GlassBeadGame
I mean unless all the wine-drinkers live in coa... Herschelkrustofsky
Container ships seem like a much better way to li... gomi [Moderator's note: the wine-realted posts have... dogbiscuit Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your "n... It's the blimp, Frank
Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your ... dogbiscuit
Hersch,
I'd be more convinced of your ... Random832 But also the backgrounds don't match -- the bi... dogbiscuit
[quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='179... It's the blimp, Frank I dunno. My hypothesis could be wrong. Or maybe in...
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