|
How to utterly destroy Wikipedia, Idea needed |
|
|
|
|
Replies
Guido den Broeder |
|
Senior Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 425
Joined:
Member No.: 10,371
|
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 24th June 2009, 2:43pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Wed 24th June 2009, 12:36pm) I don't see that happening yet. I have my own ideas but no money to carry it out.
Do you or does anyone else know of the sums of money needed to develop a working project on these lines? The best projects actually start on a very small scale without ambitious investment. In addition, if a sizeable number of the leading contributors to Wikipedia could be persuaded to leave in return for equity in the new project, that would significantly damage Wikipedia's competitiveness. As long as fairly up-to-date software remains already available, the needed sums of money to start are minimal. Wikisage runs on a few hundred EURO a year, to grow perhaps to a few thousand when we get closer to nl:wikipedia's size. That is currently mainly just a Dutch language version, but you get the picture. In time, however, when features get added that Wikipedia cannot even dream of, one might envisage a professional organization that is several orders of magnitude larger than the Wikimedia foundation, and it wouldn't need any donations.
|
|
|
|
JohnA |
|
Looking over Winston Smith's shoulder
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,171
Joined:
Member No.: 313
|
QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Thu 25th June 2009, 4:27am) QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 24th June 2009, 2:43pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Wed 24th June 2009, 12:36pm) I don't see that happening yet. I have my own ideas but no money to carry it out.
Do you or does anyone else know of the sums of money needed to develop a working project on these lines? The best projects actually start on a very small scale without ambitious investment. In addition, if a sizeable number of the leading contributors to Wikipedia could be persuaded to leave in return for equity in the new project, that would significantly damage Wikipedia's competitiveness. As long as fairly up-to-date software remains already available, the needed sums of money to start are minimal. Wikisage runs on a few hundred EURO a year, to grow perhaps to a few thousand when we get closer to nl:wikipedia's size. That is currently mainly just a Dutch language version, but you get the picture. In time, however, when features get added that Wikipedia cannot even dream of, one might envisage a professional organization that is several orders of magnitude larger than the Wikimedia foundation, and it wouldn't need any donations. That's the point. Its not as simple as setting up a wiki and inviting people to write for it. In fact, I wouldn't use the wiki approach at all as the result is usually 75% drama, 23.2% administrative overhead and only 1.8% actual writing articles. I think the wiki model is the wrong model. It either produces crap at extremely high volumes or it dies painfully after a feeble and miserable existence. The greatest problem is that the cost of hosting and bandwidth would quickly overwhelm any similar scheme to Wikipedia unless a new approach were taken to the whole question of the dissemination of articles from trusted sources on the Internet. That's my approach. But because its innovative and there is no-one doing anything similar, its hard to capture that to make anyone open their checkbook unless they are first convinced that Wikipedia is a steaming pile of crud in the first place, and that a competing product using innovative delivery can outmuscle Wikipedia AND deliver a reasonable return on the money. That's why the Wikipedia donation drive depresses me - for the money I could make something worth having rather than the rats nest that is Wikipedia.
|
|
|
|
Guido den Broeder |
|
Senior Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 425
Joined:
Member No.: 10,371
|
QUOTE(JohnA @ Thu 25th June 2009, 1:25pm) QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Thu 25th June 2009, 4:27am) QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Wed 24th June 2009, 2:43pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Wed 24th June 2009, 12:36pm) I don't see that happening yet. I have my own ideas but no money to carry it out.
Do you or does anyone else know of the sums of money needed to develop a working project on these lines? The best projects actually start on a very small scale without ambitious investment. In addition, if a sizeable number of the leading contributors to Wikipedia could be persuaded to leave in return for equity in the new project, that would significantly damage Wikipedia's competitiveness. As long as fairly up-to-date software remains already available, the needed sums of money to start are minimal. Wikisage runs on a few hundred EURO a year, to grow perhaps to a few thousand when we get closer to nl:wikipedia's size. That is currently mainly just a Dutch language version, but you get the picture. In time, however, when features get added that Wikipedia cannot even dream of, one might envisage a professional organization that is several orders of magnitude larger than the Wikimedia foundation, and it wouldn't need any donations. That's the point. Its not as simple as setting up a wiki and inviting people to write for it. In fact, I wouldn't use the wiki approach at all as the result is usually 75% drama, 23.2% administrative overhead and only 1.8% actual writing articles. I think the wiki model is the wrong model. It either produces crap at extremely high volumes or it dies painfully after a feeble and miserable existence. The greatest problem is that the cost of hosting and bandwidth would quickly overwhelm any similar scheme to Wikipedia unless a new approach were taken to the whole question of the dissemination of articles from trusted sources on the Internet. That's my approach. But because its innovative and there is no-one doing anything similar, its hard to capture that to make anyone open their checkbook unless they are first convinced that Wikipedia is a steaming pile of crud in the first place, and that a competing product using innovative delivery can outmuscle Wikipedia AND deliver a reasonable return on the money. That's why the Wikipedia donation drive depresses me - for the money I could make something worth having rather than the rats nest that is Wikipedia. The only drama that we have is from Wikipedia users complaining that we don't have enough drama, and administrative overhead so far is minimal. Hosting and bandwidth get cheaper at a fast rate, and are not likely to become an issue. The wiki approach is fine for now (better ways are in development though and will definitely arrive). It's the social structure, where Wikipedia is failing, that makes all the difference.
|
|
|
|
JohnA |
|
Looking over Winston Smith's shoulder
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,171
Joined:
Member No.: 313
|
QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Fri 26th June 2009, 8:51pm) The only drama that we have is from Wikipedia users complaining that we don't have enough drama, and administrative overhead so far is minimal. Hosting and bandwidth get cheaper at a fast rate, and are not likely to become an issue. The wiki approach is fine for now (better ways are in development though and will definitely arrive). It's the social structure, where Wikipedia is failing, that makes all the difference.
That's where I beg to differ. The wiki approach is simply the wrong way to publish authoritative information. Its a good way to write collaborative technical documents by a project team (I've done this) and its certainly cheaper than using Lotus Notes. The wiki model is derived from the social structure, and without clear leadership and a division between authorship and editorial control, what you get is Wikipedia, the anarchist's answer to the question "How can we fuck up world history?" But for all of the Web 2.0 blather, the best way to write an authoritative collection of articles on a subject is still the old way which has been well understood since at least 1768. In particular I reject the notion that any article is subject to revision at any time and that revision is immediately published without editorial review.
|
|
|
|
aeon |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 112
Joined:
Member No.: 7,214
|
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:39pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:47pm) Wikipedia, the anarchist's answer to the question "How can we fuck up world history?"
I think that's a very good definition of Wikipedia. When you say something like that, are you sitting at home with a straight face? To assert that Wikipedia, of all things, has fucked up world history is frankly ignorant to the point of being insulting. Nazism and the holocaust, maybe. Persecution of African Americans, maybe. Wikipedia? No chance. Get some perspective. This post has been edited by aeon:
|
|
|
|
Alex |
|
Back from the dead
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,017
Joined:
Member No.: 867
|
QUOTE(aeon @ Sun 28th June 2009, 1:54pm) QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:39pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:47pm) Wikipedia, the anarchist's answer to the question "How can we fuck up world history?"
I think that's a very good definition of Wikipedia. When you say something like that, are you sitting at home with a straight face? To assert that Wikipedia, of all things, has fucked up world history is frankly ignorant to the point of being insulting. Nazism and the holocaust, maybe. Persecution of African Americans, maybe. Wikipedia? No chance. Get some perspective. I really think he is serious you know. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)
|
|
|
|
Peter Damian |
|
I have as much free time as a Wikipedia admin!
Group: Regulars
Posts: 4,400
Joined:
Member No.: 4,212
|
QUOTE(Alex @ Sun 28th June 2009, 2:22pm) QUOTE(aeon @ Sun 28th June 2009, 1:54pm) QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:39pm) QUOTE(JohnA @ Sun 28th June 2009, 12:47pm) Wikipedia, the anarchist's answer to the question "How can we fuck up world history?"
I think that's a very good definition of Wikipedia. When you say something like that, are you sitting at home with a straight face? To assert that Wikipedia, of all things, has fucked up world history is frankly ignorant to the point of being insulting. Nazism and the holocaust, maybe. Persecution of African Americans, maybe. Wikipedia? No chance. Get some perspective. I really think he is serious you know. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) What are you both talking about? I am not sure what you are misunderstanding here - would it help to say that 'history' has two senses (1) the events themselves (2) the record of those events. Obviously (2) was intended. Quite obviously - how could (1) have possibly been meant????. This post has been edited by Peter Damian:
|
|
|
|
Posts in this topic
Peter Damian How to utterly destroy Wikipedia Nerd
After comments and emails from a number of 't... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='179963' date='Tu... gomi Destroying hundreds of people's lives simply b... Nerd
Destroying hundreds of people's lives simply ... carbuncle
That sounds like destroying lives to me. Perhap... Nerd
That sounds like destroying lives to me. Perha... Sarcasticidealist Sounds like it to me. I got the impression he want... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='carbuncle' post='179984' date='Tue 2... Milton Roe
Destroying hundreds of people's lives simply ... wikiwhistle
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='179963' date='Tu... Kelly Martin Destroying hundreds of people's lives simply b... CharlotteWebb I'm thinking this is more a reference to the w... victim of censorship
[quote name='Nerd' post='179967' date='Tue 23rd J... aeon
After comments and emails from a number of 't... Jon Awbrey
After comments and emails from a number of 't... Guido den Broeder
After comments and emails from a number of 't... dtobias "Wikipedia: Threat or Menace? Film at 11... JohnA
"Wikipedia: Threat or Menace? Film at 11... A Horse With No Name It's that the majority of the 'community... victim of censorship
After comments and emails from a number of 't... Sarcasticidealist AMEN... Wikipedia is a canker sore on the internet... Somey
AMEN... Wikipedia is a canker sore on the interne... victim of censorship
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='180027' dat... Somey I have some ideas of my own about how this could b... TungstenCarbide
After comments and emails from a number of 't... Peter Damian I think some of you mistake the nature of my engag... aeon
I think some of you mistake the nature of my enga... Peter Damian
At least Blnguyen is consistent. You are unable t... Kevin
I am consistently opposing the election of every... Milton Roe
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='180061' date='We... Kelly Martin I am consistently opposing the election of every n... Peter Damian OK that was tongue in cheek. But let's be more... EricBarbour I happen to agree with Peter. Just not with the me... Peter Damian
I happen to agree with Peter. Just not with the m... JohnA
The only way to beat Wikipedia is to supercede W... Peter Damian
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='180071' date='We... JohnA
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='180071' date='W... thekohser
I suggested above a strategic alliance with natur... LessHorrid vanU
...
I have some contacts at the CofE education ... Kevin
So: Talk to Google, convince them that Wikipedia... sbrown To make a serious proposal:
Get onto Net nanny an... aeon
To make a serious proposal:
Get onto Net nanny a... Peter Damian
To make a serious proposal:
Get onto Net nanny a... GlassBeadGame
To make a serious proposal:
Get onto Net nanny ... aeon
I don't see that happening yet. I have my ow... A Horse With No Name
That's why the Wikipedia donation drive depre... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180638' date='Sun 28th ... Peter Damian
I don't know. I responded based on how I read... Alex
I don't know. I responded based on how I rea... Peter Damian
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='180645' date='Su... aeon
This all reminds me of an Asimov story about a d... Peter Damian
This all reminds me of an Asimov story about a ... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180648' date='Sun 28th J... Peter Damian
Why is this at all surprising to you, Damian? You... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180654' date='Sun 28th J... Peter Damian
They're not try to repress dissent. aeon
They're not try to repress dissent.
!
... JohnA
[quote name='Alex' post='180640' date='Sun 28th J... Guido den Broeder
The only drama that we have is from Wikipedia us... JohnA
[quote name='JohnA' post='180633' date='Sun 28th ... anthony
In particular I reject the notion that any articl... Kelly Martin Maybe I can buy that. But really, Mediawiki is ea... A Horse With No Name
Maybe I can buy that. But really, Mediawiki is e... CharlotteWebb
Indeed, stable versions with the proper configura... dogbiscuit The reality is that Wikipedia survives because the... Peter Damian
I think the only way to get Wikipedia fixed (and ... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180097' date='Wed 24th ... Peter Damian
[quote name='aeon' post='180097' date='Wed 24th... dogbiscuit
I think the only way to get Wikipedia fixed (and... carbuncle
The reality is that Wikipedia survives because th... Kato
The reality is that Wikipedia survives because th... aeon
Stigma and ridicule will be increasingly piled on... dtobias
But what I reckon may hit WP the hardest is its l... Moulton The only way to kill it is to make being involved ... sbrown
The only way to kill it is to make being involved... anthony
If it werent for the good contributors who produc... Peter Damian
Possibly, a business model might be that the lead... Shalom Reply to the initial request:
Pray. I sometimes i... anthony For the most part I think we should just leave it ... Kelly Martin Wikipedia will either die in a puff of smoke cause... RMHED
Wikipedia will either die in a puff of smoke caus... Malleus
Wikipedia will either die in a puff of smoke cau... Jon Awbrey
I think it more likely that Wikipedia will be ma... anthony
[quote name='Malleus' post='180197' date='Wed 24t... Kelly Martin Wikia?Wikia couldn't find its ass with both ha... RMHED
[quote name='anthony' post='180201' date='Wed 24t... anthony
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='180204' date='Th... MZMcBride
Wikia?Wikia couldn't find its ass with both h... RMHED
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='180204' date='We... The Joy
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='180204' date='We... Kevin
[quote name='RMHED' post='180174' date='Wed 24th ... anthony
[quote name='RMHED' post='180174' date='Wed 24th... Cedric In answer to the original question, I have long be... emesee there seems to be no point in "destroying... sbrown
consumers are using the site because it meets a n... Emperor
there seems to be no point in "destroying... sbrown
there seems to be no point in "destroying... Herschelkrustofsky Or, something might change with Google. Wikipedia ... UseOnceAndDestroy Mod note: Various posts now live in the tar pit. Alex Did you honestly expect people to just sit back an... Peter Damian
Did you honestly expect people to just sit back a... Alex
Did you honestly expect people to just sit back ... Kelly Martin We really do not need somebody destroying Wikipedi... Alex
We really do not need somebody destroying Wikiped... The Joy
[quote name='Alex' post='180656' date='Sun 28th ... aeon
Did you honestly expect people to just sit back ... Tarc but interested in the views of others.
http://up... Alex
but interested in the views of others.
http://u... Peter Damian
HAHAHA. No one is stopping him from leaving, if h... Alex
HAHAHA. No one is stopping him from leaving, if ... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='180663' date='Sun 28th J... Alex
I made it ambiguous enough so it could be read as... aeon
I made it ambiguous enough so it could be read a... Peter Damian
Trolling. Inflaming. Understand what trolling is ... Kato
Which is exactly what Damian's doing in oppos... dtobias
No, and take your teletubby talk of "trollin... RMHED
No, and take your teletubby talk of "trolli... anthony
[quote name='dtobias' post='180685' date='Sun 28t... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180671' date='Sun 28th J... Peter Damian
He's not making a conscientious objection, h... aeon
[quote name='aeon' post='180703' date='Sun 28th J... Somey What a load of nonsense.
You have to define what t... A Horse With No Name
Ah... then I have to agree with you :) There... RMHED
Ah... then I have to agree with you :) There... Somey Since nobody else seems to be willing to provide c... Peter Damian
Since nobody else seems to be willing to provide ... Somey * I then carried this idea out, more as an experim... Peter Damian
* I then carried this idea out, more as an experi... Malleus WP'ers like to claim that adminship isn't ... The Joy It appears, Peter, that Chillum, Majorly, and frie... Tarc
It appears, Peter, that Chillum, Majorly, and fri... EricBarbour Maybe its just me, but I can't look at that na... Milton Roe
[quote name='The Joy' post='180700' date='Sun 28t... Ahypori
But Ottava Rima is coming to your rescue! :o... A Horse With No Name
It appears, Peter, that Chillum, Majorly, and fri... Peter Damian The incredible irony of this RfA discussion is tha... Somey
The incredible irony of this RfA discussion is th... EricBarbour You could always point them to this (extremely emb... dtobias
You could always point them to this (extremely em... EricBarbour While in this particular case it might have been ... dtobias
are you willing to let people die as a result of ... Apathetic
are you willing to let people die as a result of... Kelly Martin Yes, and just how much shall we censor to prevent ... Apathetic
Yes, and just how much shall we censor to prevent... Kelly Martin Oh, it's that easy then?
Can you tell me on w... Kelly Martin Wikipedia appears to have done the right thing her... EricBarbour The point is, what is the policy? Who decides? Jim... anthony
The point is, what is the policy? Who decides? Ji... The Joy
The point is, what is the policy? Who decides? J... anthony
[quote name='anthony' post='180992' date='Mon 29t... Guido den Broeder Thanks for the multiple insults, but you're lo... JohnA
Thanks for the multiple insults, but you're l... anthony
Has anyone found open source software that produc... EricBarbour What features are lacking in Mediawiki?
Lots. It w... Malleus
What features are lacking in Mediawiki?
Lots. It ... anthony
[quote name='anthony' post='181052' date='Tue 30t... Guido den Broeder
[quote name='Guido den Broeder' post='181037' dat... JohnA
[quote name='JohnA' post='181045' date='Tue 30th ... Guido den Broeder I definitely did have ME. I still have a problem w... JohnA
I definitely did have ME. I still have a problem ... Guido den Broeder Oh I can read Dutch as well.
I doubt it. I don... JohnA
Oh I can read Dutch as well.
I doubt it. I don... Peter Damian Looks like I've been indef blocked, anyway. thekohser
Looks like I've been indef blocked, anyway.
... Cedric
I hope that Peter Damian is intelligent enough to... Basil
Looks like I've been indef blocked, anyway.
... The Joy
Looks like I've been indef blocked, anyway.
... Somey Geogre has unblocked you. Alas, his unblock has c... dtobias
[quote name='The Joy' post='181127' date='Tue 30t... A Horse With No Name
Geogre has unblocked you. Alas, his unblock has... dtobias Publicly stating a list of ways of (allegedly) ... Somey Publicly stating a list of ways of (allegedly) ... sbrown
Publicly stating a list of ways of (allegedly) ... Malleus As Ive pointed out recently Greg has stated that h... RMHED
My preference though is to judge them by what th... Malleus
My preference though is to judge them by what th... RMHED
[quote name='RMHED' post='181154' date='Tue 30th ... Malleus Jimmy isn't my best buddy at the moment, he fi... MZMcBride
As Ive pointed out recently Greg has stated that ... Malleus
[quote name='Malleus' post='181153' date='Tue 30t... MZMcBride
[quote name='Malleus' post='181153' date='Tue 30... Somey You didn't answer the question.
Personally, I... Peter Damian
However, I'd prefer to think that he was writ... Cock-up-over-conspiracy As to his suggestion that most Wikipedians should ... JohnA
As to his suggestion that most Wikipedians should... dtobias
All of this hinges on what society (as opposed to... Peter Damian
And you seem to somehow find it odd, or perverse,... taiwopanfob
[quote name='Somey' post='181265' date='Wed 1st J... Somey And you seem to somehow find it odd, or perverse, ... dtobias
Thats nonsense. As Ive pointed out recently Greg ... thekohser
Greg is kind of more cagey, indirect, and ambiguo... EricBarbour I will say this -- I have an ambition to "utt... A Horse With No Name
Think what someone like Mel Brooks would do with ... Guido den Broeder As we know from a recent movie, the mere announcem... EricBarbour Man, I have to hand it to Peter. His Wiki-must-be-... Apathetic I think Peter's action are having an effect... Cedric
Man, I have to hand it to Peter. His Wiki-must-be... RMHED This has to go down as one of the most idiotic com... Malleus
This has to go down as one of the most idiotic co... Rhindle
[quote name='RMHED' post='181176' date='Tue 30th ... RMHED . Guido den Broeder Currently, with Mediawiki. It has enough features ... Gandoman One thing that has been shown first with Kurt, the... A Horse With No Name
One thing that has been shown first with Kurt, th... MBisanz Peter, I have an analogy and I was wondering if yo... Peter Damian
Peter, I have an analogy and I was wondering if y... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Yes, but surely the problem is that what is really... GlassBeadGame To the extent that PD's project to "Destr... anthony
To the extent that PD's project to "Dest... Jon Awbrey In short — as I have remarked on numerous e... GlassBeadGame
In short — as I have remarked on numerous ... Cock-up-over-conspiracy In short — as I have remarked on numerous e... LaraLove I just read the AN/I thread on Peter's block i... Malleus
I just read the AN/I thread on Peter's block ... The Joy
I just read the AN/I thread on Peter's block ... Peter Damian
I need to buy you a drama tiara.
I'd rather... LaraLove
I just read the AN/I thread on Peter's block... A Horse With No Name Peter, I am glad to see you supporting the Arbiter... The Joy
Peter, I am glad to see you supporting the Arbite... Malleus
No wonder there are fewer people running for RFA... A Horse With No Name
I've only a half brain cell, sorry.
Never m... Juliancolton
Peter, I am glad to see you supporting the Arbite... Malleus
I've only a half brain cell, sorry.
Never mi... Peter Damian
Peter, you get a horsey kiss [...]
Er, rather n... LaraLove
Peter, I am glad to see you supporting the Arbite... Malleus
The oppose that always kills me is the "badg... LaraLove
The oppose that always kills me is the "bad... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Another problem will soon arise, that in order to ... MBisanz
The oppose that always kills me is the "bad... Peter Damian But now look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/in...
2 Pages 1 2 >
3 User(s) are reading this topic (3 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
| |