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The National Portrait Gallery Threatens Litigation, Big Oops for WMF? |
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Kato |
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dhd
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I heard a Wikipedia Weekly podcast a while back where they discussed a similar incident. The Wikipedio was threatened with legal action for copying photographs of non-copyrighted artwork, but the threat was toothless and merely designed to put people off. The podcast was naturally in favor of the Wikipedio (big free culture activists and all that) and they seemed to agree that the Gallery had no right to threaten to sue over photographs of non-copyrighted material. They seemed to know what they were talking about as well. However, this section of this claim interests me: QUOTE There is a common misconception that, as a result of the decision in Bridgeman v. Corel, copyright can never subsist in a photograph of a painting. That conclusion is erroneous because:
1. the judgment in Bridgeman v. Corel is a decision of the US Courts and therefore, whilst it might amount to a precedent under US law, it has no effect under UK law; and
2. in the UK, whilst the precise circumstances that gave rise to the Bridgeman v. Corel litigation have never been the subject matter of a claim decided before the UK Courts, practicing lawyers and legal academics alike generally agree that under a UK law analysis the judgment in Bridgeman v. Corel is wrong and that copyright can subsist in a photograph of a painting.
For the avoidance of doubt, the allegation of copyright infringement made against you below is an allegation under UK law. Furthermore, we can confirm that every one of the images that you have copied is the product of a painstaking exercise on the part of the photographer that created the image in which significant time, skill, effort and artistry have been employed and that there can therefore be no doubt that under UK law all of those images are copyright works under s.1(1)(a) of the CDPA. Whether the Wikipedios end up being in the clear or not legally, the bolded section (if true), says to me that National Portrait Gallery are morally entitled to press a case. (update) QUOTE(Limey @ Sat 11th July 2009, 3:26am) Naturally some idiot of an admin came along to block the account used to send the email immediately per WP:NLT. Yea... I hadn't read that when I posted the above, and was going to post something similar as a joke, "I bet they block the National Portrait Gallery for making legal threats!" etc. GeorgeWilliamHerbert, the blocking admin, has long been identified here as one of the stupidiest figures Wikipedia has produced. Everything he does is preposterously wrong, and I once advised that his posts should be accompanied by the Laurel and Hardy theme tune.
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TungstenCarbide |
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QUOTE(Kato @ Sat 11th July 2009, 3:24am) I heard a Wikipedia Weekly podcast a while back where they discussed a similar incident. The Wikipedio was threatened with legal action for copying photographs of non-copyrighted artwork, but the threat was toothless and merely designed to put people off. The podcast was naturally in favor of the Wikipedio (big free culture activists and all that) and they seemed to agree that the Gallery had no right to threaten to sue over photographs of non-copyrighted material. They seemed to know what they were talking about as well. However, this section of this claim interests me: QUOTE There is a common misconception that, as a result of the decision in Bridgeman v. Corel, copyright can never subsist in a photograph of a painting. That conclusion is erroneous because:
1. the judgment in Bridgeman v. Corel is a decision of the US Courts and therefore, whilst it might amount to a precedent under US law, it has no effect under UK law; and
2. in the UK, whilst the precise circumstances that gave rise to the Bridgeman v. Corel litigation have never been the subject matter of a claim decided before the UK Courts, practicing lawyers and legal academics alike generally agree that under a UK law analysis the judgment in Bridgeman v. Corel is wrong and that copyright can subsist in a photograph of a painting.
For the avoidance of doubt, the allegation of copyright infringement made against you below is an allegation under UK law. Furthermore, we can confirm that every one of the images that you have copied is the product of a painstaking exercise on the part of the photographer that created the image in which significant time, skill, effort and artistry have been employed and that there can therefore be no doubt that under UK law all of those images are copyright works under s.1(1)(a) of the CDPA. Whether the Wikipedios end up being in the clear or not legally, the bolded section (if true), says to me that National Portrait Gallery are morally entitled to press a case. Nah, no moral justification. They might be legally entitled to bring a test case, but under no stretch of the imagination are they morally entitled. The copyrights on those paintings are expired. Nobody looks at them to admire the photographer's skill, and there is no moral justification for making money off the work of some guy who died 300 years ago. The skillful photographer copier angle is a weak technicality that doesn't follow the spirit of copyright law.
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TungstenCarbide |
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sat 11th July 2009, 3:45am) QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Fri 10th July 2009, 9:40pm)
Nah, no moral justification. They might be legally entitled to bring a test case, but under no stretch of the imagination are they morally entitled. The copyrights on those paintings are expired. Nobody looks at them to admire the photographer's skill, and there is no moral justification for making money off the work of some guy who died 300 years ago. The skillful photographer copier angle is a weak technicality that doesn't follow the spirit of copyright law.
I'm no expert on copyright but I quite certain the act of creation they are concerned with is the photograph of the painting, not the painting itself. The case cited would appear to make this not protected under US copyright law. But their point is "this is London calling..." I agree, legally speaking. But the Gallery is trying to use the 'photographers skill' to gain the value of the artist's original work. Maybe that's doable in UK law, i don't know, but I think it's morally wrong. Nobody's interested in the photographer's skill, they are interested in the artists painting. If it was a crappy photo it'd still be used if nothing else was available. This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide:
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TungstenCarbide |
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 11th July 2009, 5:54am) QUOTE(Kato @ Sat 11th July 2009, 5:11am) You seem to be pouring doubt and scorn on the claim that it takes skill to photograph certain artworks for a high quality collections. What do you think professional photographers who make their living on this do when they arrive at a gallery? Take a few polaroid snaps in 20 minutes then go for a cigarette?
It takes time and money to produce quality reproductions of artworks.
I work with digital versions of manuscripts and there is no doubt that a professionally produced photograph is superior in many ways to non-professionally produced versions. It takes expensive equipment to get the lighting correct (otherwise you get all sorts of shadows and effects that shouldn't be there), and to get the angle correct and so on. I sometimes produce my own versions but they are far inferior. We should perhaps have a separate thread on another moral issue of Wikipedia: that it removes work from honest people. The true cost of reproductions, of writing encyclopedias and so on is fairly high because people who do this for an actual living have to live. It also takes skill and expensive equipment to machine a fine bearing race. That doesn't mean the machinist owns a copyright on it. Why should it be so for a photograph of a masterpiece? 'Creativity' is inherent in copyright law. Where the hell is NYB when we need him. This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide:
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Peter Damian |
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QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Sat 11th July 2009, 7:09am) It also takes skill and expensive equipment to machine a fine bearing race. That doesn't mean the machinist owns a copyright on it. Why should it be so for a photograph of a masterpiece? 'Creativity' is inherent in copyright law.
Where the hell is NYB when we need him.
No but the company that employs that person owns the copyright. On the supposedly complex legal situation, the letter supposedly from Farrers refers to the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk...880048_en_2#pt1which says QUOTE Copyright is a property right which subsists in accordance with this Part in the following descriptions of work— (a) original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works, [...] where "artistic work†means— (a) a graphic work, photograph, sculpture or collage, irrespective of artistic quality," This post has been edited by Peter Damian:
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TungstenCarbide |
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QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 11th July 2009, 10:10am) QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Sat 11th July 2009, 7:09am) It also takes skill and expensive equipment to machine a fine bearing race. That doesn't mean the machinist owns a copyright on it. Why should it be so for a photograph of a masterpiece? 'Creativity' is inherent in copyright law.
Where the hell is NYB when we need him.
No but the company that employs that person owns the copyright. On the supposedly complex legal situation, the letter supposedly from Farrers refers to the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk...880048_en_2#pt1which says QUOTE Copyright is a property right which subsists in accordance with this Part in the following descriptions of work— (a) original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works, [...] where "artistic work†means— (a) a graphic work, photograph, sculpture or collage, irrespective of artistic quality," Yes, there is a creativity requirement for copyrights. Nobody owns a copyright on a well machined bearing race; not the machinist nor the company that employs him, regardless of the skill or expensive equipment required. It's not a creative work. The national gallery is trying to say the photographer's skill merits copyright, and they are using that technicality to hijack the value of the original paintings.
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Limey The National Portrait Gallery Threatens Litigation GlassBeadGame
See the letter issued by solicitors for the UK Na... Limey
Whether the Wikipedios end up being in the clear... Kato
Hopefully, the user involved just deletes all the... EricBarbour Hopefully, the user involved just deletes all the ... GlassBeadGame
I heard a Wikipedia Weekly podcast a while back w... No one of consequence
The National Portrait Gallery is a substantial in... Kato
But the WMF is in the US. Is there such a thing ... Push the button
...a radical and essentially right wing agenda to... No one of consequence
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='183073'... Kato
Isn't [url=http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='183073... taiwopanfob But it should only be available to people who can ... No one of consequence
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='183078'... taiwopanfob
[quote name='taiwopanfob' post='183090' date='Sat... GlassBeadGame March 2009, without our client’s consent, y... taiwopanfob In any event maybe the "free culture" fa... One
I'm going to ignore your irrelevant strawman ... Sarcasticidealist I'm no expert on copyright but I quit certain ... EricBarbour It takes time and money to produce quality reprodu... Kato
(crap, having trouble finding threads about bad h... TungstenCarbide
I agree, legally speaking.
But think about it ... Push the button
Why should it be so for a photograph of a masterp... standixon If I take a photograph, don't I own the copyri... Push the button
If I take a photograph, don't I own the copyr... Kato
Where the hell is NYB when we need him.
NYB is u... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='183056' date=... Kato
And the National Gallery is making money off of d... Kato
I suspect that the letter from the NPG's lawy... TungstenCarbide [quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='183289' date='... GlassBeadGame
against someone residing in the US, about server... Push the button
On the supposedly complex legal situation, the le... taiwopanfob
Where's the originality in a photograph which... No one of consequence
Where's the originality in a photograph whic... Peter Damian
No, please see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Co... taiwopanfob No, please see [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... Kato
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='183260' date=... GlassBeadGame
Yes, there is a creativity requirement for copyr... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='183260' date=... dogbiscuit
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='183070' date='Sa... Random832 It takes time and money to produce quality reprodu... dogbiscuit
It takes time and money to produce quality reprod... taiwopanfob The other example, say the Boston Pops Orchestra p... Eva Destruction
As also has been pointed out, the WikiMedia licen... Milton Roe
That isn't relevant to this particular case, ... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183862' date=... One
[quote name='dogbiscuit' post='183852' date='Tue ... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183862' date=... One
[quote name='One' post='183875' date='Tue 14th Ju... taiwopanfob
Well, the [url=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/... One
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As also has been pointed out, the WikiMedia lice... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='183024' date='S... A Horse With No Name
GeorgeWilliamHerbert, the blocking admin, has lo... Jon Awbrey
[quote name='Kato' post='183017' date='Fri 10th J... Random832
Whether the Wikipedios end up being in the clear... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='183017' date='Sat 11th J... JohnA Its just plagiarism, pure and simple. I bet those ... Limey FWIW. This is being discussed on Commons here: htt... dtobias Legally, the gallery might be right, at least in t... Jon Awbrey
Legally, the gallery might be right, at least in ... thekohser
All the ↑2d8 Libertaters have moved on to ... dogbiscuit
Legally, the gallery might be right, at least in ... Kato
In the UK, institutions like the National Portrai... sbrown Theres the point that aparently theyd gone to the ... Kato Here's the National Portrait Gallery's sta... No one of consequence
Good on them, but...
So, if I am affluent enough... Kato And do you think that people who stage Oscar Wild... Push the button
And do you think that people who stage Oscar Wil... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='183085' date='Sat 11th J... Push the button
But many of the same moral ambiguities can be app... taiwopanfob NPG's reproductions, no matter how technically... Kato
But many of the same moral ambiguities can be ap... Cla68 I remember a few years ago I was dismayed to find ... No one of consequence
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='183081'... LessHorrid vanU
And do you think that people who stage Oscar Wil... Push the button
The Gallery's image licensing department rai... Peter Damian 'Wanker' Gerard chimes in
http://davidger... dtobias Interesting how to oppose a "right-wing corpo... LessHorrid vanU Thinking about this - and following a comment made... Grep Well this would all be extremely hilarious if it w... taiwopanfob Does Dcoetzee really think WMF will pay for his le... Push the button
Another good question: if Dcoetzee decides he do... MZMcBride Everybody agrees that the original images are in t... taiwopanfob The part I find amusing is that the NPG is deliber... MZMcBride
[quote name='MZMcBride' post='183132' date='Sat 1... taiwopanfob It's a public service. Maybe this is the crux ... Kato
I agree that the National Portrait Gallery should... dtobias Nobody has any business agreeing to things, in a s... Grep
Nobody has any business agreeing to things, in a ... dtobias In the U.S., anything produced by federal governme... tarantino All the NPG images on Commons have been tagged wit... GlassBeadGame
All the NPG images on Commons have been tagged wi... dogbiscuit It strikes me that the fundamental issue that the ... SB_Johnny I'm not sure what I think about this case, but... tarantino
I'm not sure what I think about this case, bu... thekohser
That is too funny. Once again, the Foundation l... zvook
[quote name='SB_Johnny' post='183228' date='Sun 1... The Wales Hunter The bypassing technical measures to obtain the ima... tarantino Lar has removed Dcoetzee's administrator right... taiwopanfob Lar has removed Dcoetzee's administrator right... dogbiscuit
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[url=http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=... GlassBeadGame
[url=http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title... One
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I doubt that avoid... Lar
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='183352' date='S... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='183352' date='... Lar
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The last requirement is perhaps the most bizarre ... Supine
[quote name='Supine' post='183401' date='Sun 12th... taiwopanfob The demand in the letter to "c) permanently d... Supine
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[quote name='Supine' post='183401' date='Sun 12th... GlassBeadGame
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Of course to you the lawyers at Farrer & Co ... MZMcBride
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Jeez, this is a civil matter. No one is going to... One
The last requirement is perhaps the most bizarre ... Supine
[quote name='Supine' post='183401' date='Sun 12th... One
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Ridiculous.
This emphasises precisely why Wikip... dogbiscuit
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[quote name='dogbiscuit' post='183446' date='Mon ... thekohser
I'm going to take a wild guess here that the ... Kato
"we will fulfil your order"
That's... thekohser
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[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='183584' date=... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='183599' date='M... taiwopanfob Gmaxwell sayeth:
Well, no: Dcoetzee is being h... dtobias There are cases where a U.S. court has refused to ... GlassBeadGame
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Coincidence??? YOU D... Cedric Just in case any of you thought that I had already... Supine Oh you're referring to the settlement terms bi... Supine A Foundation-L mailing list post mentions the Apri... dcoetzee Hi all, I took a look over the thread, and althoug... Cedric
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Hi all, I took a look over the thread, and althou... Somey ...these images were in fact obtained from the NPG... Milton Roe
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Per your signature, are you still an Administrato... Adambro Hopefully this can get resolved without legal acti... Floydsvoid
I'm inclined to disagree with the NPG on this... Kato In light of this business, the National Portrait G... GlassBeadGame
In light of this business, the National Portrait ... No one of consequence
[quote name='Kato' post='183743' date='Mon 13th J... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Kato' post='183743' date='Mon 13th ... Nerd
In light of this business, the National Portrait... dogbiscuit Having read the earlier letter, I was struck by th... thekohser
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Link to this "mention", please? Dcoetz... thekohser
[quote name='thekohser' post='183796' date='Tue 1... Milton Roe
ZOMG! They won't allow our hare-brained ... Giano
Having read the earlier letter, I was struck by t... Mathsci
[quote name='dogbiscuit' post='183790' date='Tue ... GlassBeadGame
Having read the [url=http://commons.wikimedia.org... thekohser
The article has its share of inaccuracies (WMF on... Gandoman One thing that has previously been mentioned over ... Cedric The MSM is finally on the story.
EDIT: "A s... Kato
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[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki... Random832 ...offers free access to all visitors.
Yes, for o... thekohser
...offers free access to all visitors.
Yes, for ... dtobias But you've got to admit that the attitude in t... GlassBeadGame
But you've got to admit that the attitude in ... thekohser
...Durova is a bit of a weather vain...
Pun int... GlassBeadGame
...Durova is a bit of a weather vain...
Pun in... dtobias
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='183994' date='T... Peter Damian Although major newpapers like the Guardian are cov... MBisanz
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[quote name='Peter Damian' post='184083' date='We... MBisanz
[quote name='MBisanz' post='184084' date='Wed 15t... Peter Damian
Not sure I agree with exactly how that is worded,... MBisanz
Not sure I agree with exactly how that is worded... No one of consequence I wonder if anyone has actually read the [url=http...
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