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Advisory Council on Project Development |
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LaraLove |
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Wikipedia BLP advocate
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QUOTE(Obesity @ Mon 13th July 2009, 9:50am) QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 13th July 2009, 9:47am) Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia have any experience in running a company or a nonprofit organization? I have never seen such a tragically mismanaged entity as this site. I can understand that many of the people who rise to the top on Wikipedia are either kids who are still in school or slacker adults who are sneaking in edits when the boss isn't looking. But in the absence of genuine managers, we will always wind up with this kind of shit. The one reason Wikipedia is constantly imploding with tiresome drama like this is the thorough lack of individuals who have any hands-on experience in building and maintaining a working organization.
Jayjg is in his 40s and works "in management" I know an admin who was assistant manger of a Foot Locker once.... I work in restaurant management. Does that count? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 13th July 2009, 10:23am) Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?
I have no problem doing this. I think the whole controversy is ridiculous. People opposing a think-tank. It's just funny. Shit needs to change. It's been pounded for years, but nothing has changed... not for the better anyway. People are complaining endlessly, throwing out straw mans (see Prodego here), and for what? Some people hate ArbCom and think their a bunch of incompetent morons. Well, check the list of members of the think-tank. Are we all AC supporters? Hell no! Just a bunch of bad faith, sour grapes and typical whining. Nothing changes on this project because there is always a loud enough group to shut anything down. This situation is no exception. If we fold to the predictable mob, we're just back to being broken and without hope. Fuck that noise. At some point, the protesters have to be left to chanting and marching while whatever they oppose moves forward. Change isn't coming on its own. It has to be forced through. What's funny is that this group can't even force anything through. We can only suggest changes for the community to approve. Will they approve them? Almost certainly not. See previous paragraph. But it's worth a try. And I'll be damned if I give up on what I think is a brilliant idea because people are bitter, crying sour grapes or bitching about what they don't understand.
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everyking |
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Postmaster
Group: Regulars
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QUOTE(LaraLove @ Mon 13th July 2009, 5:34pm) QUOTE(Obesity @ Mon 13th July 2009, 9:50am) QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 13th July 2009, 9:47am) Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia have any experience in running a company or a nonprofit organization? I have never seen such a tragically mismanaged entity as this site. I can understand that many of the people who rise to the top on Wikipedia are either kids who are still in school or slacker adults who are sneaking in edits when the boss isn't looking. But in the absence of genuine managers, we will always wind up with this kind of shit. The one reason Wikipedia is constantly imploding with tiresome drama like this is the thorough lack of individuals who have any hands-on experience in building and maintaining a working organization.
Jayjg is in his 40s and works "in management" I know an admin who was assistant manger of a Foot Locker once.... I work in restaurant management. Does that count? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 13th July 2009, 10:23am) Surely the council is not going to just coolly proceed with business amidst the community outcry? The community has spoken and its voice is unambigious in its opposition. How can you justify ignoring that?
I have no problem doing this. I think the whole controversy is ridiculous. People opposing a think-tank. It's just funny. Shit needs to change. It's been pounded for years, but nothing has changed... not for the better anyway. People are complaining endlessly, throwing out straw mans (see Prodego here), and for what? Some people hate ArbCom and think their a bunch of incompetent morons. Well, check the list of members of the think-tank. Are we all AC supporters? Hell no! Just a bunch of bad faith, sour grapes and typical whining. Nothing changes on this project because there is always a loud enough group to shut anything down. This situation is no exception. If we fold to the predictable mob, we're just back to being broken and without hope. Fuck that noise. At some point, the protesters have to be left to chanting and marching while whatever they oppose moves forward. Change isn't coming on its own. It has to be forced through. What's funny is that this group can't even force anything through. We can only suggest changes for the community to approve. Will they approve them? Almost certainly not. See previous paragraph. But it's worth a try. And I'll be damned if I give up on what I think is a brilliant idea because people are bitter, crying sour grapes or bitching about what they don't understand. Fine, let the record show that you have sided against the community and in favor of the ArbCom. This whole controversy raises the issue: how does the community, when a consensus exists in opposition to an ArbCom decision, force the ArbCom to abrogate that decision?
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EricBarbour |
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blah
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QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 13th July 2009, 2:02pm) Fine, let the record show that you have sided against the community and in favor of the ArbCom. This whole controversy raises the issue: how does the community, when a consensus exists in opposition to an ArbCom decision, force the ArbCom to abrogate that decision? Community? I don't see a "community" in this RFC, I see a gang of SlimVirgin and Durova buttsnorkels, plus a motley gang of assorted malcontents, opposing for assorted reasons (some valid, some not), plus some of WP's worst admins (Will Beback, Aitias, Sandstein etc.) opposing because Arbcom might make it more difficult for them to engage in their favorite on-wiki ass-munching.... 69 malcontents, passersby and cranks is not the "community", sir. Get 200-300 people in there. Get more ordinary editors, and fewer of the reliable drama-generators. Then I'll call it a "community".This post has been edited by EricBarbour:
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everyking |
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Postmaster
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Mon 13th July 2009, 10:23pm) QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 13th July 2009, 2:02pm) Fine, let the record show that you have sided against the community and in favor of the ArbCom. This whole controversy raises the issue: how does the community, when a consensus exists in opposition to an ArbCom decision, force the ArbCom to abrogate that decision? Community? I don't see a "community" in this RFC, I see a gang of SlimVirgin and Durova buttsnorkels, plus a motley gang of assorted malcontents, opposing for assorted reasons (some valid, some not), plus some of WP's worst admins (Will Beback, Aitias, Sandstein etc.) opposing because Arbcom might make it more difficult for them to engage in their favorite on-wiki ass-munching.... 69 malcontents, passersby and cranks is not the "community", sir. Get 200-300 people in there. Get more ordinary editors, and fewer of the reliable drama-generators. Then I'll call it a "community".Oh, is this a "silent majority" kind of thing? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)
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EricBarbour |
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blah
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Mon 13th July 2009, 3:31pm) The majority of the community doesn't give a shit. Well, ok, that depends on how you define "community". Wikipedia has a lot of editors who edit away merrily on their pet topics, completely ignorant of all the idiotic wikipolitics. Are these people part of the "community"? They almost never vote or express an opinion on any of the usual drama pages. And that's another longstanding problem with the present setup. If MediaWiki was modified, so that logging in takes you to a voting section automatically, there would be far more participation by ordinary editors. I really don't think it would be onerous to make such an arrangement, and it would be FAR more democratic than the present mess. So far, the powermongers (like, say, the Virgin) have practiced the old security-through-obscurity game to preserve what little "power" they have. And have gotten away with it. I posted my comment in the RFC, if nothing else some people will have a giggle. (oops, the bitch deleted it. Ha ha ha. Such a sensitive little flower. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) ) This post has been edited by EricBarbour:
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gomi |
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Member
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Mon 13th July 2009, 3:54pm) I posted my comment in the RFC, if nothing else some people will have a giggle. (oops, the bitch deleted it. Ha ha ha. Such a sensitive little flower. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) ) For those of us who like these things preserved, here is Eric's comment as a whole (Lar restored the first para only): QUOTE This advisory committee may be a good idea. It may not be a good idea. I can't say for certain, and it really ought to be under more community scrutiny than it received when first proposed. Arbcom may or may not do good for Wikipedia with added control over governance. There still is no effective or reliable method of resolving disputes over content, and pointless, wasteful arguments continue to occur every day. However........I can say one thing with reasonable certainty. The original proposer of this RFC, SlimVirgin, has been a disaster for Wikipedia. She is a notorious manipulator, sock operator, and canvasser, and would naturally oppose anything that gives Arbcom more control over this wiki---and takes away any control she has. (Please remember, she was recently banned for six months. This RFC has the faint whiff of a revenge campaign against the Arbcommers who voted to ban her.) I have similar feelings about Durova, who has engaged in roughly similar edit-wars and manipulation, and been upbraided for it by Arbcom in the past. If people continue to vote the SV/Durova way, rather than according to their own opinions and consciences, there will be no valid discussion, just rubberstamping. They are long-time, jealous, aggressive pursuers of control on-wiki, and have left a trail of destruction in many disputes they have been heavily involved in. Anyone who doesn't think this is valid is invited to examine the many discussions about, and criticisms of, them on Wikipedia Review: 1 2I feel that both SV and Durova should have no say in an actual, official-looking community vote on the existence of this advisory committee, because they have repeatedly proven themselves to be untrustworthy and high-handed. They have already made their opinions clear, and the canvassing going on here is toxic. I feel that if those two continue on their current path, they will cause further damage to Wikipedia's public image. Further, their most reliable and well-known supporters, such as Crum375 and Ironholds, also ought to be restricted from any such vote. Amusing, to say the least. It lasted for all of three minutes before "the bitch deleted it".
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Posts in this topic
Eva Destruction Advisory Council on Project Development Nerd
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbit... Sarcasticidealist 1. The state of governance on Wikipedia is such th... Nerd
1. The state of governance on Wikipedia is such t... Sarcasticidealist I don't follow that logic.That's because i... Nerd
This is just a front anyway.
For what? The Troj... Sarcasticidealist It's a pretence that arbcom actually care abou... GlassBeadGame
I don't follow that logic.That's because ... Kelly Martin If this group plans to conduct its business somewh... Sarcasticidealist I'd consider volunteering except that they... Kelly Martin Also, why would you consider volunteering? To acc... Eva Destruction FWIW, I think Kelly (or Greg, for that matter) wou... Sarcasticidealist FWIW, I think Kelly (or Greg, for that matter) wou... Malleus FWIW, I think Kelly (or Greg, for that matter) wou... thekohser
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='182965' date=... MZMcBride
Believe me -- in the short term, I'm delighte... thekohser
Until Wikipedia's usefulness can be replaced ... Nerd
Until Wikipedia's usefulness can be replaced... Malleus
Until Wikipedia's usefulness can be replaced... Malleus
She's not 10. But, no... you haven't ups... Kelly Martin But I believe that Kelly has a self-admitted histo... Sarcasticidealist I've always acted in good faith with respect t... GlassBeadGame
I've always acted in good faith with respect ... Kelly Martin I thought you'd characterized your motivations... Guido den Broeder It's a move in the wrong direction, a futile a... Cla68 Obviously, a council such as this one, without any... Cedric http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc358/WRCedric/... Milton Roe
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc358/WRCedric... NuclearWarfare For those who haven't seen it yet, there is no... Kelly Martin
For those who haven't seen it yet, there is n... everyking This is junk. An advisory council to the ArbCom? W... Kelly Martin This is junk. An advisory council to the ArbCom? W... everyking
[quote name='everyking' post='183003' date='Fri 1... Sarcasticidealist I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--... everyking
I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday-... sbrown
If the ArbCom created such a committee itself, de... Sarcasticidealist If the ArbCom created such a committee itself, dec... Cock-up-over-conspiracy [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitr... Somey [quote name='Eva Destruction' post='182947' date='... Kelly Martin The whole thing is too vague anyway. If they'r... Eva Destruction
The whole thing is too vague anyway. If they... toddy Am I the only one who finds the fact that this ... LaraLove I'm to the point that I want to see change any... Eva Destruction
I'm to the point that I want to see change an... Somey Well, you can't please everyone, particularly ... Eva Destruction
The [i]last thing you'd want to do is have th... Kelly Martin I did not see this coming.
Protest resignation? K... Cla68
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183176' date=... LessHorrid vanU
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183176' date... Nerd Heh. Let's hope they all quit.
[quote name='... everyking
Heh. Let's hope they all quit.
[quote name=... Kelly Martin How about the remaining arbitrators acknowledge th... thekohser
Looking back at the events so far, I'd say th... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='183237' date='Sa... Nerd
Then we would watch Wikipedia quickly unravel.
... thekohser
Then we would watch Wikipedia quickly unravel.
... everyking
How about the remaining arbitrators acknowledge t... Kelly Martin On the contrary, I think the idea of reforming Wik... No one of consequence
On the contrary, I think the idea of reforming Wi... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Has there ever been a truly independent, external ... Somey ...People either think Wikipedia needs genuine ref... Orderinchaos
Glad to see them go. How about the remaining arbi... LessHorrid vanU
Glad to see them go. How about the remaining arb... Orderinchaos
My eyes simply glazed over as soon as I read your... Sarcasticidealist Another one bites the dust.
Heh. Let's hope t... Nerd
[quote name='Nerd' post='183185' date='Sat 11th J... GlassBeadGame Why any group would want an "advisory council... Kelly Martin The whole point of an advisory council is to provi... Somey Surely there are online communities with expertise... Somey I don't think it's all that surprising tha... taiwopanfob Matisse bitterly complains that Kirill is acting i... Kelly Martin Curiously, he then goes to Kirill, post-resignatio... LaraLove
I'm to the point that I want to see change a... Peter Damian Will it surprise everyone here when I say I am bro... GlassBeadGame
Will it surprise everyone here when I say I am br... Kelly Martin ArbCom's disappearance would probably have som... Tony1 The Advisory Council is unconstitutional, because ... taiwopanfob
The Advisory Council is unconstitutional, because... Kelly Martin
The Advisory Council is unconstitutional, because... Sarcasticidealist The ArbCom, like everyone else in Wikipedia, may d... trenton Meh, the typical wikipedia clusterfuck.
Special a... Eight So Kirill and Coren have both resigned. Anyone els... Eva Destruction
So Kirill and Coren have both resigned. Anyone el... Eight
So Kirill and Coren have both resigned. Anyone e... everyking The most revealing aspect of the RfC, in my view, ... Cla68 Like I said before, if the ArbCom really wants to ... EricBarbour People seem to be missing the between-the-lines pa... Peter Damian
Peter Damian or Greg Kohs will not destroy Wikipe... Cla68
People seem to be missing the between-the-lines p... Eva Destruction
People seem to be missing the between-the-lines p... Cla68
[quote name='EricBarbour' post='183468' date='Mon... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183478' date=... Cla68 As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is rig... everyking
As I've said on Wikipedia, I think Slim is ri... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='183521' date='Mon 13th ... everyking
[quote name='Cla68' post='183521' date='Mon 13th... GlassBeadGame
Surely the council is not going to just coolly ... thekohser
The community has spoken and its voice is unambig... A Horse With No Name Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia ha... Obesity
Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia h... A Horse With No Name
Jayjg is in his 40s and works "in managemen... Obesity
Jayjg is in his 40s and works "in manageme... A Horse With No Name
[quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='183509' ... Obesity
[quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='183509'... A Horse With No Name
Go away, Ottava. I hate you.
Oh, but I like yo... Kelly Martin Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia ha... Sarcasticidealist Just a point of order: does anyone on Wikipedia ha... trenton These grapes, they are so sour, I wouldn't eat... Kato
These [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti... Moulton Things fall apart; the center cannot hold.
It... Sarcasticidealist It's become increasingly apparent to sober obs... Moulton I've said the same things many times before.
... trenton I find this little comment from King Jimbeau quite... Moulton Yes. I think it's a good idea. It's an adv... A Horse With No Name I work in restaurant management. Does that count? ... Obesity
Only if you're on the menu! :wub:
Horsey... LaraLove
Only if you're on the menu! :wub:
Horse... Mackan I think the heart of the problem is that the Counc... A Horse With No Name
Fine, let the record show that you have sided ag... trenton
(oops, the bitch deleted it. Ha ha ha. Such a sen... EricBarbour [quote name='EricBarbour' post='183697' date='Mon ... A Horse With No Name
[quote name='EricBarbour' post='183697' date='Mon... Milton Roe
[quote name='EricBarbour' post='183697' date='Mon... A Horse With No Name
Amusing, to say the least. It lasted for all of ... Kato
The majority of the community is wrong.The majori... everyking
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='183694' date='Mo... endallbeall
The majority of the community is wrong.The majori... Sarcasticidealist For what it's worth, I don't believe that ... thekohser
For what it's worth, I don't believe that... One
You do know that the WR mods have determined it i... Cla68
I do. In my experience, companies and nonprofits... EricBarbour In fact, I'm tempted to add a statement of my ... everyking
In fact, I'm tempted to add a statement of my... EricBarbour OK, so if we exclude SV and Durova for no good rea... Sarcasticidealist What do you think should happen if you're righ... EricBarbour This is Wikipedia: nobody prevails.
Beg to differ,... Moulton ArbCom is well aware that it receives conduct case... Kelly Martin What I find really interesting in reading the comm... everyking
What I find really interesting in reading the com... Kelly Martin Kelly, I hear the ArbCom is now considering applic... Cla68 Hmmm. SV, while you're in the mood for ... Kelly Martin I think you have some more productive things to do... TungstenCarbide
Kelly, I hear the ArbCom is now considering appli... Kelly Martin
I just tried to email Casliber about it, but he l... A Horse With No Name Well, in NYB's case I'm sure he thinks tha... jayvdb
[quote name='everyking' post='183702' date='Mon 1... Kelly Martin Self-nominations are better sent to arbcom-l unles... jayvdb
I don't send things to arbcom-l because in th... Kelly Martin I think that you should back up your assertions ab... Sarcasticidealist I'd settle for courtesy blanking of the variou... MBisanz
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='184104' date='We... Sarcasticidealist :noooo: Steve, when you blank an RFx you need to ... Kelly Martin :noooo: Steve, when you blank an RFx you need to r... EricBarbour :noooo: Steve, when you blank an RFx you need to ... Tennis expert
I've courtesy blanked the RFCs.
Interesting.... MZMcBride
I've courtesy blanked the RFCs.
Interesting... Kevin
[quote name='Tennis expert' post='184288' date='T... jayvdb [quote name='jayvdb' post='184098' date='Wed 15th ... Kelly Martin You have taken the liberty to say what Casliber be... One
My discussions with NYB were in private IRC chat,... Cedric
Oh, and in addendum I see that Slimmy is going af... One
What I find really interesting in reading the com... Milton Roe
There are two problems with "consensus... A Horse With No Name
Y'know, the main reason I voted in favor of ... Cla68 Rootology just asked SV to come clean about all of... Kelly Martin Anyway, I think the heat and drama are starting to... Sarcasticidealist The only people resisting this idea are the people... Cla68
The only people resisting this idea are the peopl... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='183771' dat... Sarcasticidealist While some of you will disagree, I'd put Durov... A Horse With No Name I probably should have specified that I don't ... LaraLove
I probably should have specified that I don't... Somey ...I don't know enough about Durova's and ... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='183827' dat... A Horse With No Name
You've missed out my motivation for opposing ... Kelly Martin makes it pretty clear that he intends this group t... Cla68 You've missed out my motivation for opposing i... Orderinchaos
The only people resisting this idea are the peopl... A Horse With No Name
I really don't either - I neither have ... Orderinchaos
I really don't either - I neither have ... Kato
My proposal is : bring in experts (as in real one... Cock-up-over-conspiracy My proposal is : bring in experts (as in real ones... A Horse With No Name
Sadly, even if there was some legal-financial cri... Cla68
LOL... I'm not wishy washy on my opposition t... A Horse With No Name
By the way, excellent work on this essay.
Does ... Orderinchaos
By the way, excellent work on this essay.
Thank... Kelly Martin
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='183770' date='Tu... A Horse With No Name Hey, I just want to see you idiots fix your hate-s... Milton Roe
Hey, I just want to see you idiots fix your hate-... A Horse With No Name
You're thinking of CB. Ham is hard. You can ... Kelly Martin No, I am thinking ham -- I know the difference. I... A Horse With No Name
No, I am thinking ham -- I know the difference. ... Milton Roe
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='183909' date='Tu... Cla68 I think the objection from the parties named above... EricBarbour She doesn't want to see ArbCom enlarge their r... Kelly Martin The problem is not her, the problem is the long li... everyking
I think the objection from the parties named abov... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='183953' date='Tue 14th ... everyking
[quote name='Cla68' post='183953' date='Tue 14th... Kelly Martin It's about the ArbCom's unilateral decisio... gelugor It's interesting how no non-member has yet pos... gomi [i]blah, blah, blah failure to heed the community... Kato What exactly are you afraid of?
...becoming irrel... One blah, blah, blah failure to heed the community... LaraLove
[quote name='everyking' post='184012' date='Tue 1... everyking
[quote name='everyking' post='184012' date='Tue 1... Kelly Martin It's incorrect to say the community rejected m... Casliber
Kelly, I hear the ArbCom is now considering appli... LaraLove
"Turbulent tyrants"? The ArbCom announc... LaraLove
You've missed out my motivation for opposing ... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Eva Destruction' post='183881' date=... LaraLove
You don't need to convince me of that (hell, ... EricBarbour Of course, no way on earth this will happen.
Thank... A Horse With No Name
That system is broken, because it's dominated... Eva Destruction
Of course, no way on earth this will happen.
Than... A Horse With No Name
I've been there and already said my piece on ... Eva Destruction
I've been there and already said my piece on... Nerd
[quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='183954' ... Milton Roe
This is how the community damns itself. Regardles... Moulton Wikipedia is too far gone to be able to evolve int... LaraLove
Jimbo did put his foot in this mouth with his ... EricBarbour EK: either you're totally delusional, or SV is... everyking They can't even agree on what to discuss! ... Cla68
They can't even agree on what to discuss... everyking
[quote name='everyking' post='184248' date='Thu 1... Cla68
[quote name='everyking' post='184248' date='Thu ... everyking
[quote name='everyking' post='184251' date='Thu 1... Kelly Martin By the way, jayvdb, I just noticed that I'm on... jayvdb
By the way, jayvdb, I just noticed that I'm o... trenton All that's left for this drama-fest to be comp... Apathetic
All that's left for this drama-fest to be com... MBisanz
All that's left for this drama-fest to be com... Giano
[quote name='trenton' post='184396' date='Thu 16t... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='trenton' post='184396' date='Thu 16... Nerd
[quote name='trenton' post='184396' date='Thu 16t... everyking
[quote name='trenton' post='184396' date='Thu 16t... trenton I like how Durova makes a big deal about not makin... Kelly Martin
I like how Durova makes a big deal about not maki... Cla68
I like how Durova makes a big deal about not mak... LaraLove
I like how Durova makes a big deal about not maki... Kelly Martin I don't see the point of refactoring. It's... Casliber Right then - my eyes have gotten bleary from catch...
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