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Abd-William M. Connolley, The Cabal strikes back |
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Grep |
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Some of the more hilarious rhetoric, most but not all in the pot-kettle department WMC - "my attention was drawn to CF"
(we used to call it stalking) - admits to protecting a page version for amusement value
- "A often seemed confused about the terms of the ban"
(that would be "an indeterminate period of approximately a month" which "remains, to be reviewed in approximately another month" )
Enric Naval - "Abd believes that he knows better than other users"
(of course, it's Enric itself who knows best) - "Abd says that hoaxes should not be deleted, and hoaxers tolerated"
(Abd said that hoaxes should be blanked by any user instead of deleted by admins) - "Abd assumes the existance of bad-faith cabals"
(I wonder where he gets that idea from?) - "Abd performs experiments with democracy"
(outrageous) - "Abd sees no problem at all with his very long posts"
(subheading 25 out of 27 total in Enric's evidence)
Mathsci - "Abd has made unfounded statements about William M. Connolley" / "WMC is part of some covert off-wiki conspiracy." / "Since this case began he has written that WMC has been "coddling" me."
(Such as by blocking people who annoy Mathsci, whom WMC meets for drinks IRL) - "Abd claims to have scientific expertise"
(Mathsci claims to be a scientist but his expertise is in pure mathematics) - "Abd appears to be supported by a small tag team"
(Mathsci's being a little larger) - "My brief involvement on Talk:Cold fusion has been minimal and constructive"
(16 edits, including "Abd's contributions here seem to be extremely skewed." "In view of his poor namespace editing record, my advice to Abd is to attempt to edit a non-controversial article on science in order to get more experience in handling scientific sourcing in a completely neutral context. That might be a valuable eye-opener." "Abd is not the person to lead discussions here.")
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Mathsci |
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QUOTE(Grep @ Mon 27th July 2009, 4:14pm) I thought the gist of the case was WMC failing to handle the various CF issues adequately. I noticed you didn't address that point at all ...
I thought it was about Abd fatigue syndrome. He's got himself caught in a very tricky spot with his loony statements about a cabal. Perhaps "cabal" in this context is really an acronym for Crossdressing Antidisestablishmentarianist Bodyparts Assessment Lobby. That might get ol' Abd off the hook. What really got me though is that, after billing and cooing with the sweet and lovely Jonathan Hochman, Abd never showed up for the New York wiki conference. He is not on the list of attendees. I looked at the photos - he wasn't even sitting on Newyorkbrad's knee, feeding him grapes. As for Eric Barbour, is anybody interested in the ravings of a shameless self-publicist? They seem to be a little brainless. It is exactly these sad people whom the Crossdressing Antidisestablishmentarianist Bodyparts Assessment Lobby seeks to help. The medical editors of wikipedia usually give advice on cases involving neurological surgery although it has happened their help comes too late. There again, it's a voluntary organisation and accidents will happen. Membership is by initiation ritual (in my case voting for FT2 did the trick). This post has been edited by Mathsci:
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EricBarbour |
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blah
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QUOTE(Mathsci @ Tue 28th July 2009, 12:12am) As for Eric Barbour, is anybody interested in the ravings of a shameless self-publicist? They seem to be a little brainless. Is that the best you can do? Try again. Dweeb. QUOTE It is exactly these sad people whom the Crossdressing Antidisestablishmentarianist Bodyparts Assessment Lobby seeks to help. The medical editors of wikipedia usually give advice on cases involving neurological surgery although it has happened their help comes too late. There again, it's a voluntary organisation and accidents will happen. Membership is by initiation ritual (in my case voting for FT2 did the trick). You just condemned yourself. Now nobody on this forum will take you seriously, unless FT2 himself shows up. QUOTE I liked the group photo with the Mathsci team as the front row and the Cabal standing behind them. Linky?
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Mathsci |
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 28th July 2009, 8:44am) QUOTE It is exactly these sad people whom the Crossdressing Antidisestablishmentarianist Bodyparts Assessment Lobby seeks to help. The medical editors of wikipedia usually give advice on cases involving neurological surgery although it has happened their help comes too late. There again, it's a voluntary organisation and accidents will happen. Membership is by initiation ritual (in my case voting for FT2 did the trick). You just condemned yourself. Now nobody on this forum will take you seriously, unless FT2 himself shows up. These initiation ceremonies are not designed to be easy, that's the whole point. They often require great courage. I should add that at this present moment in time there are two things that CABAL cannot offer any assistance with: (a) baldness (b) being or appearing to be a native Californian. These have been the subject of long drawn out debates by the governing body of the CABAL, but all have been inconclusive. There is still a faint glimmer of hope that something can be done, but we're talking years, if not decades. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/idea.gif) This post has been edited by Mathsci:
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Abd |
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Warning. Serious discussion of meta-issues. Please cover your head with a bag so that, if it explodes, the mess is confined. Be considerate of those who would have to clean up. Do not read if vulnerable to Dog Vomit Slime Mold Syndrome, but ask someone who is immune or resistant to tell you about it. QUOTE(Mathsci @ Tue 28th July 2009, 9:09am) These initiation ceremonies are not designed to be easy, that's the whole point. They often require great courage.
Nah, that's my cabal, not Mathsci's. Mathsci's cabal is a Majority POV-pushing cabal. "Majority" doesn't mean "majority of all editors," it means that the members are pushing a content POV which they view as being that of the "majority of scientists," when it is usually, more accurately, an easy opinion of the most editors who take interest in a topic, but who don't rely on review of the overall body of reliable source; an MPOV-pushing cabal is dangerous because it can easily drag along other editors who don't review the sources in detail. That's why it's not "courageous." We all have difficulty distinguishing our own biases. That's why we need "fringe editors." Absolutely, they should not be allowed to control articles, but if we ban them for "Fringe POV-pushing," which often happens, we lose the ability to detect NPOV failure that favors a majority POV. For those who read carefully, these issues are coming out in the Workshop discussions, and, together with other evidence, it can be seen that the cabal doesn't trust the editorial community, it is opposed to determining NPOV by consensus. Instead, they believe, it's a job for administrators to enforce it. It's a rejected position, but there are enough editors holding this view, with enough administrators sticking to that position, that the cabal is very dangerous. There are solutions to the structural problems that allow cabals (fringe or majority or even single editors, sometimes) to control articles, and the cabal vigorously opposes them, because they are able, with the status quo, to effectively control articles of interest to them, like Global warming. I tried editing "Cold reading" to make it NPOV. Immediately, cabal reversion. What I was doing with Cold reading was what had been hammered out as a consensus at "Psychic", a much more heavily watched article. The cabal loses when it's confronted patiently. We win when we take the time, which can only happen sometimes. (I don't lose, in the end, because I don't pick conflicts that I'll lose on, though there is always a first time. Or, more accurately, I don't lose lately, I did have to test the limits, to see how far I could go with what I understand. And those early "losses," where I believe that the community simply wasn't ready yet, will lead to later work that will be successful. Am I arrogant? No, merely confident and assertive. I'm wrong, sometimes, and I drop those initiatives. Indeed, the fastest way to learn, I figured out long ago, was to be very publicly wrong, stick my foot in my mouth deeply enough that someone will actually drop the politeness and instead be truly helpful by pointing it out.) QUOTE I should add that at this present moment in time there are two things that CABAL cannot offer any assistance with:
(a) baldness Not my problem, not yet, anyway. As normal for may age, the front hairline has receded pretty far, but it's still on my forehead. Perhaps if they do solve that baldness problem, I'll consider asking the cabal for assistance, assuming that hair made that much difference to me. The cabal is likely to solve this problem because they get a lot of practice with bald reverts. In addition, they have Mathsci, who may be a bald revert. QUOTE (b) being or appearing to be a native Californian. And proud of it. I left California, though, because it had gotten completely insane (before, it was merely crazy), way too expensive to live there, and I moved to Western Massachusetts, which is the California of the East Coast; an open, tolerant, highly educated, beautiful area, with rich cultural resources, world-class, far more affordable. And snow and a five-month winter. I haven't figured out of that's the good news or the bad news, but to this native Californian, it's certainly beautiful. QUOTE These have been the subject of long drawn out debates by the governing body of the CABAL, but all have been inconclusive. There is still a faint glimmer of hope that something can be done, but we're talking years, if not decades. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/idea.gif) There is no governing body for the cabal, the collective intelligence of the cabal is the equivalent of slime mold. Its' dumber than its members. You could reduce the "long-drawn out debates" by adopting some of the principles I've been proposing, you know, the ones you knee-jerk reject because you have two knees and are a jerk, like not debating proposals that haven't been seconded. That's for when you are trying to make a decision, not for mere open discussion. Or delegating discussion to a committee, which, on Wikipedia, simply would mean that an unpopular proposal doesn't get attention until, at least, two editors support it, and this really works if one of those editors is a supporter of the status quo. That way there isn't extensive debate over maintaining the status quo when there is only one challenger: the challenger is asked to find one editor who was part of the original consensus (or even one who wasn't a part of it) before it starts to get serious attention. (And these are proposed in the RfAr as advice, not as regulation of behavior, which is what the cabal is trying to make out of it so that it will be rejected as obviously "not the way we do things." Damn straight it's not the way we do things, and we will never solve the existing problems if we are limited to "the way we do things." The cabal position is pretty much that the solution to existing problems is to ban those who cause them, not realizing that they are the cause of much, not all, of the existing problems. If we banned everyone whose behavior was a problem, we'd simply be left with a smaller set, among which some would then be the problem. It would be a collapsing fractal.) Because there is no way to channel debate like this, and when there is a status quo to be maintained, irritation at long posts is understandable. In fact, with good process, there would be no problem. A long wild-hair post will get moved to a subpage for discussion, quickly, and only those willing to discuss it will join that page; when there are at least two editors in agreement on something new, they might bring it back to the main article talk page and explain what they agreed upon, briefly, with reference to the full discussion. So time isn't wasted reviewing stuff that isn't ready, doesn't have adequate source, etc. This is, by the way, informal delegable proxy, the formal proposal, made in WP:PRX, which was just about a mechanism, not about how it would be used, simply sets up default, documented communications structures that allow natural caucuses to form rapidly in a more reliable way. (A natural caucus is like a cabal, but without the negative connotation; if a natural caucus functions to repress others, it's a true cabal.) The cabal editors want to make it appear that the charges are ridiculous and, as well, uncivil, when "cabal," by itself is little more than an assertion that there is a faction that, acting collectively -- and simply following their natural opinions and friendships -- is violating policy an damaging the project. The individuals may not appear to be violating policy, considered individually. For example, cabals can easily tag-team revert, and that's how I first identified the cabal. (The cabal needs a specific name, so I'll name it after the original involved article, in the discovery, it's the Global warming cabal, and I think there might even be reliable source on this, WMC and Global warming have been discussed in the media. But it could also be named after ScienceApologist, consistently supported by the cabal, but I'd prefer to allow him to develop in peace, and naming it after an editor could allow us to imagine that if we simply control that editor, no more problem, which is how the cabal thinks, not me. Or the anti-Fringe cabal, but it's also anti-pseudoscience. Or the Holy Inquisition Cabal, because SA said that, if he were alive then, he'd be on their side, supporting majority point of view against heretics. That's telling, I think! (Is that still on his User page?) The Holy Inquisition wasn't supporting NPOV, it was supporting Official Point of View against that of a tiny fringe, heretics. HIC. Maybe. But I'm sure some cabal members would be horrified. They do support Global warming (i.e., believe it's real -- as do I), but would certainly not support SA's view, explicitly stated. Another reason why I like SA. You know, I think some here, when I say I like WMC or, now, SA, think I'm being sarcastic. I'm not. There is also the Keystone Cops Cabal, to reflect the fact that this cabal is not organized, which is obvious. They can act collectively, but only in a primitive and uncoordinated and unreliable way. Poor Woonpton cited the control of minor pseudoscience articles by fringe POV pushers as proof that there was no cabal. Nope. Not proof. Subtlety of thought is not a cabal trait, in general. If the cabal were organized, there would have been no confrontation at ArbComm. It would be too smart to allow that, and if it saw an initiative coming that would have brought it before ArbComm, it would have headed it off. Risking exposure just to get rid of Abd, not worth it. "Let him edit Cold fusion, the cabal doesn't care enough about it, and where it matters, all it needs is for Enric Naval to let us know he needs help, and one or two editors will show up. In fact, Enric will contact those editors or put up someting on a noticeboard, no need to use the SuperSekriCabal communications channels, and we don't trust Enric to give him that information anyway. He's been known to cooperate with Abd." Instead, because of how the cabal exists and functions, they are diving in and expressing undisciplined opinions that reveal exactly what the problem is. What's really amazing, because he's avoided it before, is how self-exposed Raul654 is. Does he really believe that ArbComm won't see what he's doing? He doesn't appear to be paying attention, he's provided evidence that is *blatantly* false, he's missed that there is already an unrecused arbitrator complaining about the Scibaby range blocks, so what does he do? Make a big fuss about a *single revert* of mine, restoring an edit, and legitimately, of an alleged Scibaby sock. And then he makes a big noise about it before ArbComm. It's like he's waving a big red flag, defying ArbComm to do something about it. I wasn't kidding about what happened at WikiConference New York. Raul654 is visible, but, when an editor is as deeply involved as Raul654 is, the project moves very, very slowly, and, in the meantime, the admin is burning out, becoming more and more likely to just do what he thinks with no consideration of consensus or policy, pure IAR. And highly biased IAR, which is the kind that if you are an ordinary editor, you are history almost immediately. I have no idea if ArbComm will take this on with anyone but WMC, but they might. If I have time, I'll be trying to make some simple proposals. It's not an easy problem, to be sure. I'm actually quite conservative about the wiki. What I'm supporting is pretty much the original vision, very much as expressed early on by Jimbo. It's reflected in the policies, where they represent the best thinking of a consensus, not necessarily where they merely reflect actual practice, which not uncommonly sucks where procedure sucks. This conflict between intent of the policies and actual practice is also an issue in this RfAr. There are a lot of issues there, for people who look. And, yes, it's getting very complex. That's what happens when a cabal is exercised to comment; the few editors involved on the other side are surrounded by comments from one source ("they are wrong"), developed by many writers, and this tends to trigger complex defensive responses. However, I have some tricks in mind. I get to redact everything I 've put up there, even if there has been response to it. I just hide it in collapse or even delete it, leaving a reference to history. No concealment, but, ... a change in appearance. They will complain, they already are complaining. They do not want me to be "concise and clear." They just want me to be sanctioned for not being concise and clear. Heh! Raul is concise and totally stupid. Is stupidity sanctionable? No. Loss of an admin bit is not a sanction, it does not punish an editor (if that's all it is, it shouldn't happen); however, a stupid admin is dangerous to the project, therefore should not ba allowed to continue. On the other hand, ArbComm could set up procedures, easily, which would allow WMC and Raul, for example, to keep their admin bits, and this would be a generic solution to a difficult problem: admin burnout and retirement. I am not about punishing WMC or Raul or anyone for what came before. I'm very exactly and precisely about protecting the project so that it can make decisions in a non-disruptive and neutral way, by consensus. Maximized consensus. Quite a trick, if we can pull it off. If we do, we will be the largest active consensus organization on the planet that makes organization-wide decisions directly, and that could, indeed, have some real-world implications. (Alcoholics Anonymous is huge, millions of active members, but .. it makes very few organization-wide decisions, and it does so very slowly, through a super-majority elected Conference, which works just fine for them. Working decisions at the local level are made in face-to-face meetings by members deciding what they will do, not anyone else, each meeting is a bit like a Wikipedia article, when WP process is working.) Along the way, I might be able to undo some of the damage WMC and other cabal admins have done. Maybe. Not easy. However, if others join in this, it could all be done. I can do very little alone. This post has been edited by Abd:
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Mathsci |
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QUOTE(Abd @ Fri 31st July 2009, 9:28pm) Warning. Serious discussion of meta-issues. Please cover your head with a bag so that, if it explodes, the mess is confined. Be considerate of those who would have to clean up. Do not read if vulnerable to Dog Vomit Slime Mold Syndrome, but ask someone who is immune or resistant to tell you about it. QUOTE(Mathsci @ Tue 28th July 2009, 9:09am) These initiation ceremonies are not designed to be easy, that's the whole point. They often require great courage.
Nah, that's my cabal, not Mathsci's. Mathsci's cabal is a Majority POV-pushing cabal. "Majority" doesn't mean "majority of all editors," it means that the members are pushing a content POV which they view as being that of the "majority of scientists," when it is usually, more accurately, an easy opinion of the most editors who take interest in a topic, but who don't rely on review of the overall body of reliable source; an MPOV-pushing cabal is dangerous because it can easily drag along other editors who don't review the sources in detail. That's why it's not "courageous." We all have difficulty distinguishing our own biases. That's why we need "fringe editors." Absolutely, they should not be allowed to control articles, but if we ban them for "Fringe POV-pushing," which often happens, we lose the ability to detect NPOV failure that favors a majority POV. For those who read carefully, these issues are coming out in the Workshop discussions, and, together with other evidence, it can be seen that the cabal doesn't trust the editorial community, it is opposed to determining NPOV by consensus. Instead, they believe, it's a job for administrators to enforce it. It's a rejected position, but there are enough editors holding this view, with enough administrators sticking to that position, that the cabal is very dangerous. There are solutions to the structural problems that allow cabals (fringe or majority or even single editors, sometimes) to control articles, and the cabal vigorously opposes them, because they are able, with the status quo, to effectively control articles of interest to them, like Global warming. I tried editing "Cold reading" to make it NPOV. Immediately, cabal reversion. What I was doing with Cold reading was what had been hammered out as a consensus at "Psychic", a much more heavily watched article. The cabal loses when it's confronted patiently. We win when we take the time, which can only happen sometimes. (I don't lose, in the end, because I don't pick conflicts that I'll lose on, though there is always a first time. Or, more accurately, I don't lose lately, I did have to test the limits, to see how far I could go with what I understand. And those early "losses," where I believe that the community simply wasn't ready yet, will lead to later work that will be successful. Am I arrogant? No, merely confident and assertive. I'm wrong, sometimes, and I drop those initiatives. Indeed, the fastest way to learn, I figured out long ago, was to be very publicly wrong, stick my foot in my mouth deeply enough that someone will actually drop the politeness and instead be truly helpful by pointing it out.) QUOTE I should add that at this present moment in time there are two things that CABAL cannot offer any assistance with:
(a) baldness Not my problem, not yet, anyway. As normal for may age, the front hairline has receded pretty far, but it's still on my forehead. Perhaps if they do solve that baldness problem, I'll consider asking the cabal for assistance, assuming that hair made that much difference to me. The cabal is likely to solve this problem because they get a lot of practice with bald reverts. In addition, they have Mathsci, who may be a bald revert. QUOTE (b) being or appearing to be a native Californian. And proud of it. I left California, though, because it had gotten completely insane (before, it was merely crazy), way too expensive to live there, and I moved to Western Massachusetts, which is the California of the East Coast; an open, tolerant, highly educated, beautiful area, with rich cultural resources, world-class, far more affordable. And snow and a five-month winter. I haven't figured out of that's the good news or the bad news, but to this native Californian, it's certainly beautiful. QUOTE These have been the subject of long drawn out debates by the governing body of the CABAL, but all have been inconclusive. There is still a faint glimmer of hope that something can be done, but we're talking years, if not decades. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/idea.gif) There is no governing body for the cabal, the collective intelligence of the cabal is the equivalent of slime mold. Its' dumber than its members. You could reduce the "long-drawn out debates" by adopting some of the principles I've been proposing, you know, the ones you knee-jerk reject because you have two knees and are a jerk, like not debating proposals that haven't been seconded. That's for when you are trying to make a decision, not for mere open discussion. Or delegating discussion to a committee, which, on Wikipedia, simply would mean that an unpopular proposal doesn't get attention until, at least, two editors support it, and this really works if one of those editors is a supporter of the status quo. That way there isn't extensive debate over maintaining the status quo when there is only one challenger: the challenger is asked to find one editor who was part of the original consensus (or even one who wasn't a part of it) before it starts to get serious attention. (And these are proposed in the RfAr as advice, not as regulation of behavior, which is what the cabal is trying to make out of it so that it will be rejected as obviously "not the way we do things." Damn straight it's not the way we do things, and we will never solve the existing problems if we are limited to "the way we do things." The cabal position is pretty much that the solution to existing problems is to ban those who cause them, not realizing that they are the cause of much, not all, of the existing problems. If we banned everyone whose behavior was a problem, we'd simply be left with a smaller set, among which some would then be the problem. It would be a collapsing fractal.) Because there is no way to channel debate like this, and when there is a status quo to be maintained, irritation at long posts is understandable. In fact, with good process, there would be no problem. A long wild-hair post will get moved to a subpage for discussion, quickly, and only those willing to discuss it will join that page; when there are at least two editors in agreement on something new, they might bring it back to the main article talk page and explain what they agreed upon, briefly, with reference to the full discussion. So time isn't wasted reviewing stuff that isn't ready, doesn't have adequate source, etc. This is, by the way, informal delegable proxy, the formal proposal, made in WP:PRX, which was just about a mechanism, not about how it would be used, simply sets up default, documented communications structures that allow natural caucuses to form rapidly in a more reliable way. (A natural caucus is like a cabal, but without the negative connotation; if a natural caucus functions to repress others, it's a true cabal.) The cabal editors want to make it appear that the charges are ridiculous and, as well, uncivil, when "cabal," by itself is little more than an assertion that there is a faction that, acting collectively -- and simply following their natural opinions and friendships -- is violating policy an damaging the project. The individuals may not appear to be violating policy, considered individually. For example, cabals can easily tag-team revert, and that's how I first identified the cabal. (The cabal needs a specific name, so I'll name it after the original involved article, in the discovery, it's the Global warming cabal, and I think there might even be reliable source on this, WMC and Global warming have been discussed in the media. But it could also be named after ScienceApologist, consistently supported by the cabal, but I'd prefer to allow him to develop in peace, and naming it after an editor could allow us to imagine that if we simply control that editor, no more problem, which is how the cabal thinks, not me. Or the anti-Fringe cabal, but it's also anti-pseudoscience. Or the Holy Inquisition Cabal, because SA said that, if he were alive then, he'd be on their side, supporting majority point of view against heretics. That's telling, I think! (Is that still on his User page?) The Holy Inquisition wasn't supporting NPOV, it was supporting Official Point of View against that of a tiny fringe, heretics. HIC. Maybe. But I'm sure some cabal members would be horrified. They do support Global warming (i.e., believe it's real -- as do I), but would certainly not support SA's view, explicitly stated. Another reason why I like SA. You know, I think some here, when I say I like WMC or, now, SA, think I'm being sarcastic. I'm not. There is also the Keystone Cops Cabal, to reflect the fact that this cabal is not organized, which is obvious. They can act collectively, but only in a primitive and uncoordinated and unreliable way. Poor Woonpton cited the control of minor pseudoscience articles by fringe POV pushers as proof that there was no cabal. Nope. Not proof. Subtlety of thought is not a cabal trait, in general. If the cabal were organized, there would have been no confrontation at ArbComm. It would be too smart to allow that, and if it saw an initiative coming that would have brought it before ArbComm, it would have headed it off. Risking exposure just to get rid of Abd, not worth it. "Let him edit Cold fusion, the cabal doesn't care enough about it, and where it matters, all it needs is for Enric Naval to let us know he needs help, and one or two editors will show up. In fact, Enric will contact those editors or put up someting on a noticeboard, no need to use the SuperSekriCabal communications channels, and we don't trust Enric to give him that information anyway. He's been known to cooperate with Abd." Instead, because of how the cabal exists and functions, they are diving in and expressing undisciplined opinions that reveal exactly what the problem is. What's really amazing, because he's avoided it before, is how self-exposed Raul654 is. Does he really believe that ArbComm won't see what he's doing? He doesn't appear to be paying attention, he's provided evidence that is *blatantly* false, he's missed that there is already an unrecused arbitrator complaining about the Scibaby range blocks, so what does he do? Make a big fuss about a *single revert* of mine, restoring an edit, and legitimately, of an alleged Scibaby sock. And then he makes a big noise about it before ArbComm. It's like he's waving a big red flag, defying ArbComm to do something about it. I wasn't kidding about what happened at WikiConference New York. Raul654 is visible, but, when an editor is as deeply involved as Raul654 is, the project moves very, very slowly, and, in the meantime, the admin is burning out, becoming more and more likely to just do what he thinks with no consideration of consensus or policy, pure IAR. And highly biased IAR, which is the kind that if you are an ordinary editor, you are history almost immediately. I have no idea if ArbComm will take this on with anyone but WMC, but they might. If I have time, I'll be trying to make some simple proposals. It's not an easy problem, to be sure. I'm actually quite conservative about the wiki. What I'm supporting is pretty much the original vision, very much as expressed early on by Jimbo. It's reflected in the policies, where they represent the best thinking of a consensus, not necessarily where they merely reflect actual practice, which not uncommonly sucks where procedure sucks. This conflict between intent of the policies and actual practice is also an issue in this RfAr. There are a lot of issues there, for people who look. And, yes, it's getting very complex. That's what happens when a cabal is exercised to comment; the few editors involved on the other side are surrounded by comments from one source ("they are wrong"), developed by many writers, and this tends to trigger complex defensive responses. However, I have some tricks in mind. I get to redact everything I 've put up there, even if there has been response to it. I just hide it in collapse or even delete it, leaving a reference to history. No concealment, but, ... a change in appearance. They will complain, they already are complaining. They do not want me to be "concise and clear." They just want me to be sanctioned for not being concise and clear. Heh! Raul is concise and totally stupid. Is stupidity sanctionable? No. Loss of an admin bit is not a sanction, it does not punish an editor (if that's all it is, it shouldn't happen); however, a stupid admin is dangerous to the project, therefore should not ba allowed to continue. On the other hand, ArbComm could set up procedures, easily, which would allow WMC and Raul, for example, to keep their admin bits, and this would be a generic solution to a difficult problem: admin burnout and retirement. I am not about punishing WMC or Raul or anyone for what came before. I'm very exactly and precisely about protecting the project so that it can make decisions in a non-disruptive and neutral way, by consensus. Maximized consensus. Quite a trick, if we can pull it off. If we do, we will be the largest active consensus organization on the planet that makes organization-wide decisions directly, and that could, indeed, have some real-world implications. (Alcoholics Anonymous is huge, millions of active members, but .. it makes very few organization-wide decisions, and it does so very slowly, through a super-majority elected Conference, which works just fine for them. Working decisions at the local level are made in face-to-face meetings by members deciding what they will do, not anyone else, each meeting is a bit like a Wikipedia article, when WP process is working.) Along the way, I might be able to undo some of the damage WMC and other cabal admins have done. Maybe. Not easy. However, if others join in this, it could all be done. I can do very little alone. Goodness, all this verbal diarrhea. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif) I thought I was responding to my friend Eric "Scrotum Smasher" Barbour, not old Grumpie-Jaws, who seems to have gone off the deep end here I recommend Andrews Liver Salts - they might provide a new direction for all of this stuff (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/2470155487_3b6eeb0be1_b.jpg) This post has been edited by Mathsci:
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Posts in this topic
Grep Abd-William M. Connolley Mathsci
Mathsci
"Abd has made unfounded statements... Cla68 Mathsci, do you think that William M. Connolley is... Mathsci
Mathsci, do you think that William M. Connolley i... Mathsci Well one wildy protesting sock - Arkady Renkov - h... Grep
Well one wildy protesting sock - Arkady Renkov - ... Mathsci
Well one wildy protesting sock - Arkady Renkov -... The Adversary
We already made a wax doll of Grep in the early h... Mathsci
We already made a wax doll of Grep in the early ... The Adversary
He he he.
That reminds me - I still have to go t... Mathsci
Eh, but what is "git"? (They didn´t... The Adversary
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(British_sl... A Horse With No Name
Going totally off-topic here (Sorry, Somey!) ... The Adversary
Don't apologize -- I tend to think of it as ... A Horse With No Name
Ah, but whenever I see any of horseys post, my ... The Adversary
What are you talking about? I am calm and well-be... A Horse With No Name
[quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='185026' ... The Adversary
Ha ha...not. But that's why this Horsey like... A Horse With No Name
You forgot a tiny issue (for you): those guys hav... Malleus
Ha ha...not. But that's why this Horsey lik... Herschelkrustofsky
I should also add that I forgot William's bir... Mathsci
I should also add that I forgot William's bi... dtobias Is WMC anything like the WMDs they didn't find... A Horse With No Name
Is WMC anything like the WMDs they didn't fin... dtobias Perhaps there could be a rather ruder version of t... Abd How incredibly boring, I come here looking for som... Somey How incredibly boring, I come here looking for som... The Adversary
[i]Low interest? About 75 percent of this thread ... GlassBeadGame
[i]Low interest? About 75 percent of this thread... The Adversary
Mr. Horse seems to make a good number of comment... Lar
Oh, I don´t want you to ban him, I just would ... tarantino
[quote name='The Adversary' post='185087' date='M... Lar
Horsey is a [url=http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-... Milton Roe
Horsey is a [url=http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is... A Horse With No Name
I think you're selling him a bit short. What ... A Horse With No Name Oh, I don´t want you to ban him, I just would l... sbrown
Mr. Horse seems to make a good number of comments... Cla68
How incredibly boring, I come here looking for so... Mathsci
If you want WMC's behavior to be corrected, y... Abd
Isn't the case a little more restricted than ... Mathsci
It might give you some clue, something which you ... EricBarbour Grandad, I never left university, you silly oid co... Mathsci
Keep talking, asshole. Keep making snark about yo... Abd
Grandad, I never left university, you silly oid c... Mathsci
In any case, if any of you are familiar with th... Abd
OMG, Grandad, not another lecture on your crackp... Mathsci
Thanks for the link, Mathsci, I haven't seen ... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='185101' date='Tue 21st ... Abd Okay, finally, something to chew on.
ABD, what ... Mathsci
How incredibly boring, I come here looking for so... Grep
On-WP, you are dense with incivility, here, you a... Mathsci
On-WP, you are dense with incivility, here, you ... Milton Roe
The other is far more serious and worrying - it ... Viridae WR members are usually interested in this sort of ... Cla68
WR members are usually interested in this sort of... Mathsci
Mathsci, do you think that WMC was correct in rem... Cla68
Mathsci, do you think that WMC was correct in re... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='185218' date='Tue 21s... Cla68
Are you not, Sir, the most pretentious, snivelli... EricBarbour a) this thread belongs in the tarpit;
b) it's ... Mathsci Wasn't there somebody in this thread asking wh... Somey Look, folks, I've been trying to be nice about... Abd I can tell before I write this that it's going... Grep There are certainly a number of serious issues her... Abd
There are certainly a number of serious issues he... Milton Roe
First of all, I'm convinced that low-energy n... Abd
I figured that with a modest investment of about... Somey I guess I should be more careful what I ask for, e... Mathsci The problem is that Abd is wasting everybody's... Somey Meanwhile, Somey, why would anybody discuss this c... EricBarbour In most cases like this, the controlling forces ev... Abd
These boys are
enjoying typing at each other too ... EricBarbour Compromise was tried. With JzG, I tried for about ... Abd
Sorry, but I have looked at various WP pages and ... Abd
In most cases like this, the controlling forces e... Grep
The problem is that Abd is wasting everybody... Milton Roe
Maybe, maybe not. Wikipedia Review isn't the... Grep
The Wikipedia isn't the place to decide ANY i... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='185574' date='Thu ... Abd
Yes, and all could have been avoided if somebody ... Abd
I guess I should be more careful what I ask for, ... Robert Roberts
As a "witness" my eyes glaze over ever... Abd
As a "witness" my eyes glaze over eve... Mathsci
Mathsi is an arrogant asshole.
Act I, Scene V... Abd
[quote name='Abd' post='185495' date='Thu 23rd Ju... Mathsci
Mathsci, care to let us know more about your rea... EricBarbour
My favourite colour is blue.
My operating system ... A Horse With No Name Abd, can you believe that we are soon arriving at ... Abd
Abd, can you believe that we are soon arriving at... A Horse With No Name
Yes, next month. Some little known facts about th... Herschelkrustofsky This saga seems to encapsulate all of the worst an... Enric_Naval Reading this thread in its enterity ranges among t... Grep
Reading this thread in its enterity ranges among ... Enric_Naval
Reading this thread in its enterity ranges among... Mathsci What team? Milton Roe
What team?
The Bourbaki Mathsci team. We're ... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='185678' date='Fri 24t... A Horse With No Name
* I have a problem with WR becoming a place to ex... Milton Roe
* I have a problem with WR becoming a place to e... Grep To be honest, the hilarity value is certainly on t... Enric_Naval So, back to reviewing wikipedia. Is there really a... Grep
Abd never showed up for the New York wiki confere... Grep
Linky?
It's a post-modern sort of thing: a... RMHED
Warning. Serious discussion of meta-issues. Pleas... Abd
[quote name='Abd' post='186822' date='Fri 31st Ju... Mathsci
Like Mathsci later, RHMED quoted my entire essay... Abd [quote name='Abd' post='186984' date='Sat 1st Augu... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='186992' date='Sat 1st... RMHED
[quote name='Abd' post='186984' date='Sat 1st Aug... Abd
[quote name='Abd' post='187000' date='Sun 2nd Aug... Milton Roe
Warning. Serious discussion of meta-issues. Plea... Abd [quote name='Abd' post='186822' date='Fri 31st Jul... Grep I mentioned earlier that Hersfold seemed to be get... Mathsci
Meanwhile "uninvolved" [wpuser]TotientD... Grep
The user contributions of TotientDragooned had a... Mathsci
You must be looking at a wikipedia in a paralle... Grep
In my universe Abd seems to be the only person th... Mathsci
In my universe Abd seems to be the only person t... Grep
But didn't you say somewhere else that there ... Abd
In my universe Abd seems to be the only person t... Abd
In my universe Abd seems to be the only person t... Mathsci
No, that's too much to write. Tl;dr is a lot... Sarcasticidealist Tl;dr is a lot faster, isn't it? It's a si... Abd
Tl;dr is a lot faster, isn't it? It's a s... Mathsci
I'd rather be editing an article. Very little... Peter Damian
So: I was banned by WMC
From my very limited r... Mathsci
[quote name='Abd' post='186647' date='Fri 31st Ju... Grep
You seem like a very intelligent person, and very... Mathsci
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='187102' date='Su... The Adversary
For me WR is for loonie conduct <snip>
We... Mathsci
For me WR is for loonie conduct <snip>
W... Abd
So: I was banned by WMC [..]
From my very limi... Abd Long again! If anyone reads this and thinks an... Kelly Martin The stupid level in this thread is beginning to en... Abd
The stupid level in this thread is beginning to e... EricBarbour http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/metasonix... Tennis expert Abd, you are completely naive if you believe for a... Abd
Abd, you are completely naive if you believe for ... Lifebaka Abd, I assume you wrote down your proposed delegab... Sarcasticidealist Abd, I assume you wrote down your proposed delegab... Abd
[quote name='Lifebaka' post='186854' date='Fri 31... EricBarbour I nominate this thread for the official title of: ... Abd
I nominate this thread for the official title of:... jayvdb
[quote name='EricBarbour' post='187218' date='Sun... Grep
I nominate this thread for the official title of:... GoRight I'm insulted! You guys are having a party... Milton Roe
I'm insulted! You guys are having a part... GoRight
Hey, Mel. If you're looking for the dystopian... Mathsci
Perhaps that is why I subconsciously chose this ... GoRight
No, no, no, no, the dastardly duo looks more like... GoRight The Plot Thickens:
Having seen the hero in our li... Somey Having seen the hero in our little drama, Hipocrit... Kelly Martin I could be wrong, though - Mr. Sidaway has a way o... GoRight
Tony is drawn to drama, enjoys being involved in ... GoRight True to form, our new player seems to have stuck h... Moulton We need an emoticon for eating popcorn
I agree. :... GoRight I note that one of the director's favorite act... Abd
I note that one of the director's favorite ac... Mathsci
Unless ArbComm decides to block the whole lot of ... GoRight Reading through some of the earlier posts, one of ... Milton Roe
Reading through some of the earlier posts, one of... Mathsci Poor old grandad must have forgotten to take his ... Milton Roe
Poor old grandad must have forgotten to take his... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='188483' date='Sun 9th... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='188538' date='Sun ... Abd
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='188538' date='Sun ... Mathsci
Oh, it will be mentioned and linked.
The link ... privatemusings
On Mondays I can be clean shaven, on Tuesdays ha... Moulton If someone wants to understand what is actually go... Abd
Poor old grandad must have forgotten to take his... Grep So WMC thinks it a good idea to block Abd while th... Mathsci
So WMC thinks it a good idea to block Abd while t... Grep
Who's the mad hatter?
mathsci = misc hat One ... GoRight Yesterday's episode was action filled and full... Kelly Martin Tony is known to live in the UK and has in the pas... Milton Roe
Tony is known to live in the UK and has in the pa... One Wow, TS. Tony sez: "In what sense is William... GoRight
Uh, well, these two users have had a significant ... One
Well perhaps you can understand why I found the q... Kelly Martin I understand. Many people know both of these indiv... Milton Roe
For what it's worth, Raul's style is more... Mathsci
The voice of reason.
These kind and thoughtfu... Grep Interesting to see that Mathsci have apparently wi... Mathsci
Interesting to see that Mathsci have apparently w... Grep It seems to have confused the clerks as well -- I... Mathsci
It seems to have confused the clerks as well -- I... Grep An interesting contribution from BozMo here. In t... Abd
In the section where Mathsci try to have the evid... Mathsci
[quote name='Grep' post='189148' date='Wed 12th A... TungstenCarbide
An interesting contribution from [wpuser]BozMo he... Grep
Ikip puts on a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind... Mathsci
[quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='189242' date=... Kato
The clerk suggested that I add evidence about wha... Grep
Mathsci, if you are a professional mathematician ... Mathsci
Mathsci, if you are a professional mathematician... Grep
[quote name='Grep' post='189455' date='Fri 14th A... Mathsci
[quote name='Grep' post='189455' date='Fri 14th ... Moulton Ah yes. Rings, Fields, Groups, and Cabals.
All p... Grep I did a rough edit count for the various pages for... Abd
I did a rough edit count for the various pages fo... Moulton Wikipedia is harder on my sanity than was having f... Cedric
In any event, it's a crazy-making culture bec... Abd
Wikipedia is harder on my sanity than was having ... Grep Meanwhile, back at the case, I note the inspired p... GoRight
Meanwhile, back at the case, I note the inspired ... Mathsci
Meanwhile, back at the case, I note the inspired... Grep
GoRight has just been blockedfor 48 hours for tro... GoRight
GoRight has just been blockedfor 48 hours for tro... Cla68
GoRight has just been blockedfor 48 hours for tr... Mathsci
Congratulations, I think all of you are turning t... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='189804' date='Tue 18th ... Kato
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ta... Cla68
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=T... Abd
What they need to do for Global Warming articles... TungstenCarbide Wow, Ikip really knows how to put a case together,... Abd
Wow, Ikip[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe... Herschelkrustofsky
I've been arguing that ArbComm should suspend... Abd I've been arguing that ArbComm should suspend ... Herschelkrustofsky
Wow, Ikip[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe... Abd Darn it, if Connelley gets de-sysopped, it will s... Mathsci
Darn it, if Connelley gets de-sysopped, it will ... Mathsci
Not one of Cla68's greatest moments on wikip... Mathsci Cla68 , the wikipedia troll, seems to have lost hi... One
Cla68 , the wikipedia troll, seems to have lost h... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='191816' date='Fri 28t... Guido den Broeder
Cla68 , the wikipedia troll, seems to have lost h... Lar
Cla68 , the wikipedia troll, seems to have lost h... Mathsci
[quote name='Mathsci' post='191816' date='Fri 28t... Cla68
Not one of Cla68's greatest moments on wiki... Herschelkrustofsky
The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lawren... Cla68
The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lawre... Jay
If a notable scientist like [url=http://en.wikipe... CharlotteWebb
Wow, Ikip really knows how to put a case together... Mathsci
[quote name='Cla68' post='189804' date='Tue 18th... Cla68
Good gracious, March 2006! And you've b... Apathetic Proposed decision is up for voting now Grep
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbit... Moulton [quote name='Moulton' post='189543' date='Sat 15th... Abd
GoRight has just been blockedfor 48 hours for tr... Grep Poor old Hersfold doesn't seem to be doing too... InkBlot I don't know why, but seeing comments on Hersf... Moulton Boredom is the name of an emotion, and thus charac... Moulton For reasons that I am at a loss to understand or e...
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