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Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk? |
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carbuncle |
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Fat Cat
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There are some strong accusations being thrown out about members of a certain closed mailing list. QUOTE Concentrated stalking and attacks against Russavia
Yesterday a member of a closed e-mail list named "Wikipediametric" forwarded me their archive asking me to do something about it. Out of the 3000+ emails more than a half is filled with discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia. Among the suggested methods were stalking Russavia edits, carefully crafted edit warring (making sure that no member of the group would make more than one or two reverts), low level personal attacks designed to engineer civility blocks for Russavia's responses, block shopping, attempts to out Russavia. "Friends of Russavia", particular User:PasswordUsername, User:Offliner, User:YMB29 as well as User:Anonimu were also under similar attack. The group was also discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering, etc. So far I have not found a single discussion or even kudos for creating noncontroversial wiki content but long series of joy on every block for the people listed as their enemies, particular Russavia. They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies. Among the most active members are User:Digwuren, User:Biophys, User:Piotrus, User:Molobo, User:Radeksz. The emails are almost certainly genuine. It looks like for at list half a year Russavia was a target of constant coordinated attacks by a group of active wikipedians quite skillful in the art of achieving victory by banning their opponents. I am not sure he was aware of this particular group but the editing history of articles touched by Russavia is quite telling by itself. I do not think it is in the project best interest to let them succeed.
I am not sure what to do about this archive. I will forward it to the Arbcom and I could provide it to any administrator I trust. I would not give it to nonadmins (including Russavia himself) or anybody else (unless the authors give me permissions) as it contain a significant amount of personal information that might be abused. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC) This post has been edited by carbuncle:
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Abd |
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Postmaster
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QUOTE(Mathsci @ Fri 4th December 2009, 10:34pm) Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? Voting stops on the 14th and his 3 month block started on September 14th. This issue could be critical for the whole future of ArbCom. I would imagine that the block is set to automatically expire at the same time it was set, on the same day of the month. If it were more fair, "one month" blocks would be 30 days exactly. Why should the length of the block depend on the month and day in which it's set? But surely nobody, including me, gives a hoot about a detail like this. The whole thing was utterly arbitrary in the first place. What, exactly, was the purpose of the block? I'll say it: It was to appease the cabal. Didn't work, by the way. The cabal still complained bitterly about WMC losing his admin bit. He's running for ArbComm. Now, that will be interesting. Maybe I should vote for him, on the theory that the worse it gets, the sooner it will fall. QUOTE And what's the news about his exploding jamjars? It would be a novel idea for a stocking filler.
I'll use this recommendation in the advertising. "Mathsci, noted Wikipedia editor, mathematician and expert on the inside of his bum: 'Novel idea for a stocking filler.'" Okay, not worded quite like that... Unfortunately, not this Christmas. Starting with nothing in my hands except a dual power supply, everything is now together to start assembly of cells, except the drill press I bought was missing a part, and they are s l o w to replace it. I have all the materials, including a kilogram of deuterium oxide, that was the hardest to get. U.S. company didn't want to sell to an individual, but the Canadians had no problem, so it cost me a couple of extra dollars for shipping, big deal. A kilogram is enough for forty deuterium cells, obviously I don't need it for light water controls. Palladium chloride, gold wire, and platinum wire are expensive, to be sure, but what's a few thousand dollars if you're in love? Besides, even if, in the quite unlikely event that this project is a flop, they hold their value. I can make a profit just selling them on eBay. So my inventory is money in the bank. I'll describe the experiment as the first prototype will be run, in the page here on the WR article, cold fusion. Perhaps Mathsci would care to predict the results? I'm betting on what is found in multiple peer-review-published reports and similar secondary sources: I'll find clear evidence of neutron emission from a gold cathode wire on which palladium and deuterium have been co-deposited through electrolysis. I may see other stuff, too, since my instrumentation approach is quite different, apparently, from what has been done (but the actual electrolysis is an exact replication, only scaled down by a factor of four to keep costs low and to simplify analysis of the spatial distribution of the radiation). Today I'm starting the first control exposures of polycarbonate sheets to alpha radiation, from an Am-241 alpha source. Most households have a smoke detector with a handy one in it. My apartment now has one less smoke detector. Reminds me to buy one, it would be courteous to the landlord (even though the one I hacked apart was broken already.) $6. This is much more fun than editing Wikipedia. And while I've had to invest a few thousand dollars in order to buy quantities such that I can sell the stuff at market for the small quantities in a kit, my customers will be able to run one of these experiments for as little as $95, if they have a power supply. Cutting edge science, $95? Local science-toy store owner, knows the industry well, was quite excited, says he'll connect me with a major manufacturer. I don't know if the market is large enough for that. I'm sure it's large enough for my tiny production. There is interest from a professor, a nuclear physicist, expert in the LENR field, who has grad students he'll assign the project, wants to buy a number of kits, and also wants to set up a distributor in India. And most of my costs have been covered already, by the way, by volunteered donations and loans. Seems there are some people who trust what I'm doing enough to put their money where their mouth is. However, for Mathsci, I could put together a special sealed cell in a Mason jar. With sealed cells and recombination in the cell, you can more directly measure excess heat, something I'm hardly even looking for in the initial kits (I'll log temperature, but that's about it). There is a tiny problem with sealed cells, even though that's what Morrison complained that Fleischmann should have been doing. If the recombiner temporarily stops working, an explosive mixture of deuterium gas and oxygen builds up in the cell, and if something sets it off, like the recombiner suddenly starts working again, well, the only fatality in the field was from that, and McKubre still has cell fragments in his body from it. I'll let Mathsci work with exploding jam jars if he likes. It's not my plan. There is a fuel cell kit in the toy store that does the electrolysis, then reverses it. The box notes that explosive gases are released. But the amounts are so small and ignition so unlikely that apparently the lawyers let the company sell this to kids. On the other hand, if you read in the news that a few blocks of Northampton, Massachusetts were mysteriously vaporized, you could guess that I discovered something new. Given that what I'm doing, in terms of the electrochemistry, has been done by quite a few researchers, with nothing remotely like an explosion, I rather doubt I'll become that famous. It's impossible, anyway, right, Mathsci? The fact is that I may actually see (with a nifty microscope I bought for amazingly little that can make VGA videos at 800x) tiny thermonuclear explosions, likely less than a micron across, but they will melt about a 10 micron region of palladium where they occur, based on prior SEM photos of palladium deuteride cathodes. Nobody has ever looked live at the cathode on that scale, an odd lacuna. I'll simultaneously be monitoring sound in the cell with a very high frequency response piezoelectric transducer, and looking for voltage anomalies that temporally coincide with them, with a digital storage oscilloscope that I also bought. I'm amazed at what sophisticated instrumentation can be bought now for peanuts. The 'scope is new, far better than equipment I used when I was working as an electronic designer, I'd have given my eye teeth for one of these, and it was only $400 including shipment from China. Dual-channel, color display, 50 MHz, 2G samples/sec, long memory, etc. I'll describe the neutron instrumentation in the CF article page. It's a heads-up for Wikipedia editors, because it's highly likely that this stuff will end up in reliable source. The grad student research would be done for publication under peer-review, for starters, plus I'll be writing about it, and I'll be collecting reports from customers. The kits are designed to be a standard cell, so that single variables can be studied by a wide range of researchers (including amateurs, but there are professionals interested). Nobody has ever done this before, even though the lack of such exact replications has been a major obstacle in overcoming the serious skepticism that was established twenty years ago. This is about science, not about "free energy," and I have no idea whether or not it will ever be practical to harness this for practical use. The specific approach I'm using may be intrinsically impractical, useful only for demonstrating the effects, not for scaling them up. There are other approaches, developed in Japan, that may prove to be more practical: gas-loading of nanoparticle palladium alloy, recently replicated independently. By the way, Wikipedia sucks. Nothing I'm doing is actually fringe or not established in peer-reviewed secondary source, at least in round outline, yet you will find no indication in the article of the solidity of this, and text based on reliable sources was roundly suppressed through revert warring, with one argument after another, invented as needed, and my very moderate response to the revert warring was what led to my ban, which ban interrupted a mediation which was being successful. (That a gold substrate optimizes for neutron emission is based on two published experiments by a single group, so that's not truly confirmed yet, but that there is radiation from these cells is amply and widely known; that low levels of neutrons are emitted has often been claimed, by many groups, but until recently the levels were tricky to distinguish from cosmic ray background. The U.S. Navy researchers whose work I'm replicating managed to move beyond that obstacle using solid state nuclear track detectors placed in the cell itself, confirming work that began in China in 1990, which is my approach, but I'm adding a sophistication that nobody has tried yet, as far as I know. Multiple detectors sandwiched.)
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Mathsci |
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QUOTE(Abd @ Sat 5th December 2009, 5:43pm) QUOTE(Mathsci @ Fri 4th December 2009, 10:34pm) Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? Voting stops on the 14th and his 3 month block started on September 14th. This issue could be critical for the whole future of ArbCom. I would imagine that the block is set to automatically expire at the same time it was set, on the same day of the month. If it were more fair, "one month" blocks would be 30 days exactly. Why should the length of the block depend on the month and day in which it's set? But surely nobody, including me, gives a hoot about a detail like this. The whole thing was utterly arbitrary in the first place. What, exactly, was the purpose of the block? I'll say it: It was to appease the cabal. Didn't work, by the way. The cabal still complained bitterly about WMC losing his admin bit. He's running for ArbComm. Now, that will be interesting. Maybe I should vote for him, on the theory that the worse it gets, the sooner it will fall. QUOTE And what's the news about his exploding jamjars? It would be a novel idea for a stocking filler.
I'll use this recommendation in the advertising. Abd has apparently joined the EEML.
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Deputy Cabal Ringleader |
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QUOTE(Mathsci @ Sun 6th December 2009, 12:29pm) As I believe he said here several times (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) We are not a closed group, applications are welcome (but are screened for trolls and idiots...). But before you you apply, please read Abd descriptions of what goes in here; I believe Horsie joined for a while, too.
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Abd |
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Postmaster
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QUOTE(Deputy Cabal Ringleader @ Sun 6th December 2009, 6:51pm) QUOTE(Mathsci @ Sun 6th December 2009, 12:29pm) As I believe he said here several times (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) We are not a closed group, applications are welcome (but are screened for trolls and idiots...). But before you you apply, please read Abd descriptions of what goes in here; I believe Horsie joined for a while, too. Once upon a time, Piotrus would not have written "idiots," his shift, born of frustration with the community and ArbComm, is part of the damage done by how ArbComm has handled this case. If you read what he -- a sociologist who is published on Wikipedia under peer-review -- has written, he was quite naive about the seamy underbelly of what happens. I don't blame him. It's quite easy to escape it and discount it, until it happens to you. In most of the disputes that arise, it's possible to see error on both sides, and unless you actually become intimately knowledgeable about the details of a case, to make assumptions that ArbComm is acting within reason. Most people assume, about conflict, that both parties are wrong and that both should be sanctioned, it's a kind of default position I've seen for years. It's an assumption that is the most dangerous because it's usually right! Horsie joined, but saw the traffic -- mostly boring if you aren't interested in EE news and comments -- and left immediately, before being able to see much of it. I've stayed on, but only read a little of the traffic. My interest, frankly, was Piotrus, as a sociologist, and I discovered as well that the founder of the list, Digwuren, is a quite insightful commentator on Wikipedia, unfortunately -- as are many such, we can see this on WR -- he's pretty cynical. Nevertheless, Wikipedia is losing, too often, its brightest and best. I recommended that the list be quite open, and there was positive response to that. That doesn't mean that it should tolerate disruption and tendentious argument on the list. Contrary to the "idiocy" of certain arbitrator comments on the list and how "cabal lists" function -- I too have lost my naive opinion about arbitrator qualifications -- the idea that list participants would assume a Wikipedia consensus from a list consensus is just plain silly. They aren't stupid! There is no harm in sympathetic editors discussing Wikipedia, and the speculative harm from "canvassing" is mostly illusory. If decisions are being made from a modest number of votes from participants learning about a discussion on a mailing list, that's the problem, not the fact that people discuss stuff. And the fact is that editors discuss stuff off-wiki all the time. Many times a discussion here has resulted in on-wiki action by an admin, or in participation in some other process. If that was a wrong decision, it will presumably be noticed and reviewed. Even the appearance of canvassing can backfire, it is often used as a reason to reconsider a decision, and it may even bias a decision in the opposite direction. However, if closing admins do their job and review the evidence instead of the numbers of votes, all that canvassing can do is to collect better evidence, at most. Repeated !votes with the same defective arguments can even irritate an admin into making an opposite decision. In my view, better WP process would involve more of what we call canvassing rather than less. I.e., why not get the opinions of those who might be involved in a topic and therefore who are more likely to be informed? Unfortunately, this is probably the reason for rules against canvassing: it reduces the power of what Jimbo called the "administrative cabal," and replaces that with a distributed power that is open to any editors who choose to cooperate with each other. I think that the idea of the great unwashed starting to talk to each other and cooperate scares the **** out of some of those who imagine they can control the beast, because they know how difficult it would be for the limited resources of the cabal to stand against it. Or at least that is what they fear. It is actually the ancient fear of democracy. And the assumption is that this distributed power would be stupid and unintelligent and mindlessly selfish. Maybe. If there is no guidance, no voice of real consensus. That's part of why good consensus process is so important. Consensus is powerful, and that power remains no matter what the scale, as long as the consensus is real and not fake, an illusion produced by exiling one side of a dispute.
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Deputy Cabal Ringleader |
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QUOTE(wjhonson @ Mon 7th December 2009, 5:22am) I have no problem with the existence of a mailing list whose participants are helping create or even delete articles. I do however have a problem with a mailing list on which the participants are coordinating their efforts to try to drive other editors off the project, or at least get those others worked up enough so that they get themselves blocked or banned.
Two quite different things.
Certainly, and I can assure you that there was no discussion on how to drive any editors away - although there was some discussion on how to deal, on wiki, via regular dispute resolution procedures, with some disruptive editors. Common discussions focused on pattern analysis, whether somebody is a sock, shares an account, and on how CIV-related policies are impossible to enforce, so whether we should bother with CIV-related evidence (as it is common for some editors to try to create poisonous atmosphere with CIV violations; and how complains about that are ignored; I have some mini-essays on that - see my sig). In almost all case such discussion didn't result in anything anyway, since most of us hate wikipolitics; I prefer to write articles rather than an AE/ANI post... finally, you will note than in the proposed FoF, there is not a single diff on on wiki action related to harassment or anything similar. I can, however, show you multiple examples of editors who left of limited their activity after becoming the target of harassment of editors "from the other side". Actually, so I am not accused of grandstanding without evidence, here's my favorite case study (while it represents a common trends, it is also the only one where the editor who left explained most of his reasons in multiple insightful public comments. I refer to Halibutt, once a very active editor of WikiProject Poland; he was active even before I joined it 5 years ago, and has written several FAs, and multiple lesser content. He left 3 years ago, and his contributions since then are much lower than they once were ( graph; note that despite not editing for 3 years he is still ranked as the 848th most active editor). So what happened? Well, being more active before my times, creating significant amount of content and policing it for NPOV, he became the target of certain editors way before myself. Here's the story Halibutt, in his own words: * he retires (read both sides of the diff)* he discusses the problems of Wikipedia (I find his culinary comparison of Wikipedia a true masterpiece) * he more comments on why he left* ending with that editor leaving a single comment in the EEML caseNeedless to say, most of the editors who chased Halibutt off the project are still here, creating little content, but active in edit warring, POV pushing, and throwing accusations. They succeeded in chasing many others, albeit till now, without any luck in any formal DR. The fact that this time they managed to subvert DR to their purposes, is the sign that over the years, they have grown much more experienced and organized. So, wjhonson, I think you are very right to worry about cabals out there who specialize in harassment and outing. But let me give you a final hint on which cabal you should be worried about: go to Encyclopedia Dramatica and see who is the target of real harassment, outing, and so on... (I am not going to link to that hate site, but just type EEML in their search engine).
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Guesswork Orange |
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QUOTE(Deputy Cabal Ringleader @ Mon 7th December 2009, 6:03am) QUOTE(wjhonson @ Mon 7th December 2009, 5:22am) I have no problem with the existence of a mailing list whose participants are helping create or even delete articles. I do however have a problem with a mailing list on which the participants are coordinating their efforts to try to drive other editors off the project, or at least get those others worked up enough so that they get themselves blocked or banned.
Two quite different things.
Certainly, and I can assure you that there was no discussion on how to drive any editors away - although there was some discussion on how to deal, on wiki, via regular dispute resolution procedures, with some disruptive editors. Common discussions focused on pattern analysis, whether somebody is a sock, shares an account, and on how CIV-related policies are impossible to enforce, so whether we should bother with CIV-related evidence (as it is common for some editors to try to create poisonous atmosphere with CIV violations; and how complains about that are ignored; I have some mini-essays on that - see my sig). In almost all case such discussion didn't result in anything anyway, since most of us hate wikipolitics; I prefer to write articles rather than an AE/ANI post... finally, you will note than in the proposed FoF, there is not a single diff on on wiki action related to harassment or anything similar. ... If you'd like to see a case of someone driven away by that gang, take a look at Irpen. He left immediately after the Eastern European disputes arbitration and never made a single edit ever again. Or in Radeksz' words: "Most of our opponents are inexperienced in relative terms to us, older folks like Ghirla and Irpen having been driven out." <20090621-1853> Irpen had specifically criticized Piotrus' collusive off-wiki behavior in that arbitration, but his complaints ended up completely ignored. This post has been edited by Guesswork Orange:
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radek |
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QUOTE(Guesswork Orange @ Mon 7th December 2009, 1:16am) QUOTE(Deputy Cabal Ringleader @ Mon 7th December 2009, 6:03am) QUOTE(wjhonson @ Mon 7th December 2009, 5:22am) I have no problem with the existence of a mailing list whose participants are helping create or even delete articles. I do however have a problem with a mailing list on which the participants are coordinating their efforts to try to drive other editors off the project, or at least get those others worked up enough so that they get themselves blocked or banned.
Two quite different things.
... If you'd like to see a case of someone driven away by that gang, take a look at Irpen. He left immediately after the Eastern European disputes arbitration and never made a single edit ever again. Or in Radeksz' words: "Most of our opponents are inexperienced in relative terms to us, older folks like Ghirla and Irpen having been driven out." <20090621-1853> Irpen had specifically criticized Piotrus' collusive off-wiki behavior in that arbitration, but his complaints ended up completely ignored. Actually both Ghirla and Irpen were before my time and I never had any kind of interaction with them whatsoever - I don't think I've even edited the same articles that they used to edit There was no way that I could've driven them out. BTW, this is actually one of the messages in the leaked archive that I believe was tampered with. I do remember noting that those two have left but not in those words. Even if not this was at worst an unfortunate choice of words - there's nothing I did here - which just underlies the stupidity of taking things out of context and the fact that you've really got no business reading people's private emails. There's various four letters words for the kind of people that do that you know. While we're on the subject, I think the one bad thing I did while on the list was trying to purposefully irritate Deacon. I actually feel pretty bad about that one and I apologized to him.
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Abd |
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QUOTE(radek @ Mon 7th December 2009, 4:16am) While we're on the subject, I think the one bad thing I did while on the list was trying to purposefully irritate Deacon. I actually feel pretty bad about that one and I apologized to him. Yes. Take a group of more or less congenial editors, let them converse with each other privately and , as they engage in the work of Wikipedia. Some of them will do Bad Things. Now, is the entire group to be held responsible for the actions of each individual? If so, we are all responsible for every Bad Thing that happens there, until and unless we resign from Wikipedia entirely, or are blocked, since the entire community does what I just described. In fact, we don't pay attention to everything. And even when we do, and take action, our actions aren't necessarily visible. Tymek offered to let others use his account to avoid 3RR violations, probably the most egregious offense uncovered by the revelation of the list archive. But ... nobody actually did it, apparently. It appears that Tymek was privately admonished for this. Yet that evidence was used to create an impression of general "cabal" misbehavior. A true cabal wouldn't even think of doing this, because an operating cabal would not need to do it, and it would risk checkuser identification as a sock puppet, pretty stupid. Tymek's account was apparently used to reveal the list material, but wasn't the source of the leak, as far as can be seen. It remains unknown, except to the perpetrator, who actually did it. Personally, I'd suspect Tymek himself, and would suspect the offer as trolling for someone to take the bait, and end up blocked, but the listfolks don't think so, knowing him. In a sane wiki, 3RR would be a mere procedural device. Revert thrice, go to jail for 24 hours while the smoke clears, with no presumption of blame. But the real problem is revert warring, and it matters not if it is two editors, one on each "side," or two to one, or five to one. It's the lack of seeking of consensus, resulting in content see-sawing, that's the difficulty. And it matters not if the cabal on one side is secretly colluding or not. It's the same problem if it is mere watchlist oversight of an article. The global warming cabal doesn't need to secretly collude, because it can work its serious wiki-mischief without it. I saw it again and again. And, by the way, my POV on global warming is generally aligned with theirs, the problem is that they unfairly repress reliably sourced material on the other side, using tag-team revert warring and highly selective blocks of editors on one side. And the evidence provided in my case showed that, actually. ArbComm simply disregarded it, there was no response at all to the claim on the part of ArbComm, even though this is a problem that has been documented in major media. WMC was desysopped for behavior that was completely predictable from past behavior, that was actually well-known. He did great damage to the wiki with this behavior. Scibaby was created by WMC, and the response to Scibaby, largely by Raul654, involved constant effort and vast range blocks over a long period of time. All because the global warming cabal didn't want to allow real dispute resolution to take place with skeptical editors, they wanted to get rid of them, and they were usually successful in that. Except that Wikipedia can't actually eliminate editors, it can merely play whack-a-mole with them. ArbComm had an opportunity with my case to examine real cabal behavior. I did not invent the term "cabal" for this specific constellation of editors; it was not only common here on WR, but was in major media about WMC and his friends. Compared to that configuration, the EEML cabal, such as it was, was truly minor and with little impact. By insisting on "cabal" as requiring, in its definition, proof of secret collaboration, ArbComm almost entirely avoided facing the real issue, and instead blamed me for raising a claim of reprehensible behavior that I actually did not raise. I did not claim that there was anything reprehensible about "belonging" to a cabal. I only claimed that editors so involved were mutually involved, not neutral, in disputes where they would pile in on one side In fact, when there were discussions about, say, a bad block on the part of WMC, the cabal would pile in, leading the overall "vote" to be roughly 50-50. And then the cabal would claim that WMC had been vindicated, that the "community" agreed with WMC's block. All this was brought out in evidence and ignored. I raised the cabal issue because these editors, more generally aligned on an anti-pseudoscience position, had piled in to my case to argue for my being banned, it was quite striking, these were the same editors who had been arguing the position -- one which the community does not generally support when there is a wide enough discussion -- in prior cases, before I ever had contact with them. The administrators supporting WMC's clearly involved blocks of me were the same ones who had been arguing and defending involved blocks previously, and who continued to argue, and who continue to argue, that there is nothing wrong with blocking while involved in the topic, that it is necessary, and that recusal policy is the problem, being used by "wikilawyers" to attack fine, upstanding administrators. I.e., them. All that "cabal" meant was a group of involved editors who mutually support each other, preferentially. And that's not actually reprehensible except as the individual actions are reprehensible, and for those actions, the individuals are responsible, not their friends who may or may not have been aware of them. I asked for no sanctions against "cabal members." The evidence was blanked, which is pretty unusual, because one editor had complained up and down about being "accused" of being a participant. But she had participated in a position, over enough discussions that the affiliation implied was reasonable. Given how much seriously offensive assumptions of bad faith routinely stand -- and she had been asserting bad faith, over and over -- it was amazing to me that ArbComm allowed the blanking. But not surprising, I'm sure, to those who believe that ArbComm is just a front for the real cabal, the truly powerful one. I don't actually believe that. Rather, the problem is much more banal.
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Posts in this topic
carbuncle Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk? LaraLove And the plot thickens. Some Wikipedians are droppi... MBisanz It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is at... TungstenCarbide
It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is a... One
It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ... MBisanz
It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ... don fugazi
Regardless of why he was added (I don't know ... Nja247 I say let there be full disclosure and then let th... LaraLove
I say let there be full disclosure and then let t... No one of consequence
I say let there be full disclosure and then let ... LaraLove
If there really are 3000 emails it would be prett... carbuncle
Releasing partially redacted info would certainl... carbuncle
I say let there be full disclosure and then let ... thekohser Here is the full disclosure:
Wikipedia is a multi... Somey So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the unde... Cla68
So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und... Moulton The Russia vs Poland vs Serbia vs Georgia vs Chech... Cock-up-over-conspiracy The Russia vs Poland vs ... vs ... vs ... vs ...... Cla68 MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onli... Mathsci
MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onl... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st ... No one of consequence
Thank you Mathsci, that did it. If those emails ... MBisanz
Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their ... No one of consequence
Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their... MBisanz
[quote name='MBisanz' post='195236' date='Mon 21s... No one of consequence
Well specifically I allege I had a conversation w... One
I got it now. I don't think the overall accu... TungstenCarbide Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her technique... Cedric
Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her techniqu... Abd But of course. What wiki-scandal can be complete ... One
I have complete confidence that Durova would atte... No one of consequence
Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks ... One
Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks... No one of consequence
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='195323'... One
Yes, but at this point they could easily leave o... Digwuren the Grey
I thought this would have been an obvious respons... Appleby
I have complete confidence that Durova would atte... EricBarbour No, I recommend that Durova's offer should be ... Abd [quote name='No one of consequence' post='195241' ... One
Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number wi... Cla68
Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number w... Milton Roe
:huh: :hmmm:
Since Kato has been adamantly ... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Durova has never worked for any orgazation more ne... Random832 I got it now. I don't think the overall accur... No one of consequence
I got it now. I don't think the overall accu... TungstenCarbide They certainly have been desperate the keep the ar... Kelly Martin There seems to be people who like to do this. Case... MBisanz
There seems to be people who like to do this. Cas... TungstenCarbide
There seems to be people who like to do this. Ca... InkBlot
[quote name='MBisanz' post='195353' date='Tue 22n... carbuncle
MBisanz says that the emails have been [url=http:... EricBarbour [quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st S... Abd (It was moved yesterday anyway. Warning, 10 megab... Backslashforwardslash
So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und... Nevo
So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und... MBisanz
So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und... Abd This is one of the long running trends I have seen... Kelly Martin This is one of the long running trends I have seen... One
How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg... Cla68 I would imagine 90% of the people in this forum ar... Moulton I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intellig... Lar
I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intelli... Moulton [quote name='Moulton' post='194940' date='Sat 19th... LaraLove
The Russia vs Poland vs Serbia vs Georgia vs Chec... Cla68 A case has been opened. GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Moulton' post='194744' date='Thu 17t... Jim
See, that's true wisdom.
You can't crit... Friday
[quote name='Moulton' post='194744' date='Thu 17... Moulton There are any number of people who attempt critici... Friday
There are any number of people who attempt critic... Cedric
[quote name='Moulton' post='194818' date='Fri 18t... EricBarbour FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponent... victim of censorship
FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen... tarantino
FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen... carbuncle
FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's oppone... Apathetic What a sordid mess LaraLove
[quote name='LaraLove' post='194751' date='Thu 17... Jim
I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GBG... LaraLove
I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GB... Jim
[quote name='Jim' post='194814' date='Fri 18th Se... Casliber
How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg... tarantino Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list... A Horse With No Name
Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis... TungstenCarbide
Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing li... tarantino
I don't know how you define "gonzo... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='196446' ... A Horse With No Name
Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older I... Kelly Martin Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ... GlassBeadGame
Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ... carbuncle
Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis... No one of consequence
I've skimmed the first few pages, but haven... MBisanz
[quote name='carbuncle' post='196470' date='Mon 2... Abd Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list... Cock-up-over-conspiracy Wikipedia is phenomenally inefficient ...
My point... Casliber
Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older ... trenton What's the outrage here? Isn't it common f... Silverman
If a bank leaves money out in the open, unguarded... Abd Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, pe... A Horse With No Name
Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, p... CharlotteWebb
Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely use... MBisanz
Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely us... Apathetic PD posted, FYI Abd They did just go through the WMC-Abd case where it... Digwuren the Grey
I've argued that ArbComm should immediately s... thekohser
In other words, you learnt about the topic. In W... Kelly Martin This would seem to be in conflict, at least on an ... Kelly Martin And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ... Abd And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ... CharlotteWebb The most egregious finding of fact I see so far is... Abd Some specifics. Coren has drafted findings of fact... CharlotteWebb
The citations to the mailing list are supposed to... Abd
I understand he is French-Canadian eh so you migh... Malleus I find small town America really scary. God knows,... CharlotteWebb
[quote name='CharlotteWebb' post='199290' date='M... A Horse With No Name In regard to this proposal:
"Piotrus topic ... Abd In regard to this proposal:
"Piotrus topic ... Malleus
I find small town America really scary. God knows... Eva Destruction
[quote name='Abd' post='199302' date='Mon 12th Oc... A Horse With No Name Dragging the thread back on topic, this is one of... Abd I hated small-town America for exactly this reason... YellowMonkey These gimmick cases of POV disputes clouded by sen... EricBarbour Well, so far, it doesn't look good for Coren.
... Sarcasticidealist Well, so far, it doesn't look good for Coren.H... dogbiscuit Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce... Kelly Martin Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce... dogbiscuit
Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proc... Abd Fundamentally, in any system where the rules do no... SB_Johnny Heh, took a bit to find where the thread on this w... Abd Continuing the analysis of evidence re Piotrus, pr... Deacon
The list "cabal" is a majority-POV-pus... Abd
The list members are all highly nationalistic, an... Deacon
The list members are all highly nationalistic, a... Abd I've been dealing with this stuff for years, h... Deacon
Actually, I wasn't talking to you, except for... EricBarbour Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint Ea... A Horse With No Name
Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint E... Abd Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint Ea... A Horse With No Name Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation de... Abd
Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation d... Milton Roe
Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint ... Achromatic
I'm subscribed to the list now, and, suffice ... Abd [quote name='Abd' post='199889' date='Thu 15th Oct... Digwuren the Grey
:lol:
Ever considered a career in comedy?
[...... Trick cyclist
What language would these people call their own?
... Digwuren the Grey
[quote name='Digwuren%20the%20Grey' post='209382'... The Joy Why is the ArbCom reluctant to indefinitely ban ev... EricBarbour Coren started posting his "remedies" bac... Sarcasticidealist Coren started posting his "remedies" bac... Abd [quote name='EricBarbour' post='199536' date='Wed ... Abd Coren's agenda. , two proposed remedies which ... A Horse With No Name Is this case still dragging on? Someone let me kn... Abd Coren continued
The problem is that this happens o... A Horse With No Name
In this case, I think it's just one administ... Milton Roe
And for that matter, let's make an effort to ... YellowMonkey
The only way we can enact serious change on WP ... Abd In this case, I think it's just one administra... Milton Roe
We also have to acknowledge an ugly fact that Pio... A Horse With No Name :hmmm: That is just shocking if true. We've n... Abd Very nice, perhaps, and I have evidence for that, ... radek [quote name='A Horse With No Name' date=... Deputy Cabal Ringleader Radek, learn how to quote properly :) Hint: you ne... A Horse With No Name
While I'm here I also wanted to respond to th... A Horse With No Name For those who got distracted by Mr. Miller and his... A Horse With No Name Overlooked in recent days is another BLP AfD, this... A Horse With No Name Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward ... The Joy
Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward... A Horse With No Name
Not so fast, Horsey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi... The Joy
[quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd... Cedric
[quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd... A Horse With No Name Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/i... Abd I I like how Manning rewrites history: "For t... Guesswork Orange I think Piotrus resigned because he wasn't usi... radek All you've done there is just list everytime t... Digwuren the Grey
Off-wiki communication is what could dethrone the... Digwuren the Grey
Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/... thekohser
It may not be *the* standard procedure, but it su... Digwuren the Grey
You have to love a community/system/tribunal that... MBisanz According to new, now oversighted evidence that I ... radek
According to new, now oversighted evidence that I... MBisanz
According to new, now oversighted evidence that ... radek
[quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th D... radek
[quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ... MBisanz
[quote name='radek' post='208152' date='Thu 3rd D... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom... Somey Behold the words of evil and hate, and tremble:
... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
[quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20820... radek
[quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='2082... radek And here is my "official" statement I se... MBisanz
And here is my "official" statement I s... radek
I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom... MBisanz
""I would be interested in a translat... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w... TungstenCarbide EDIT: I just found what made Radek so angry. I am ... carbuncle Just so it's not all "take", here... Abd Just so it's not all "take", here... Milton Roe
(If we don't make decisions by vote, please e... Abd [quote name='Abd' post='208288' date='Fri 4th Dece... Somey It's both. I'm still not as negative as yo... Kelly Martin The "system," such as it is, is brillian... Random832
[quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th D... Kelly Martin [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th De... radek
[quote name='Random832' post='208545' date='Sat 5... radek
I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
There ain't crap in there and you know it.
... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
[quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ... everyking I find the ArbCom's own mailing list to be a m... Sarcasticidealist Welcome to WR, Piotrus. Guesswork Orange Even so this thread is strategically spammed by th... A Horse With No Name
I recognized my mistakes and now we are only beat... Deputy Cabal Ringleader Interesting... Somey [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wik... radek
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wi... Milton Roe
Yes and this was a "voting bloc" that r... Abd Can people whose names start with A please stop po... Guesswork Orange
We are not a closed group, applications are welco... wjhonson But Halibutt is not gone.
See this link
Or did y... radek
It's a matter of perspective. Take a look at... radek
But Halibutt is not gone.
See this link
Or did ... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
But Halibutt is not gone.
[url=http://en.wikiped... Guesswork Orange The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy... Somey
The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy... Deputy Cabal Ringleader
[quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date... Guesswork Orange
[quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th D... radek
[quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th ... Deputy Cabal Ringleader Radek, why are you bothering with a SPA who doesn... radek
The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy... Somey My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I... Wiki Witch of the West
My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I... radek
[quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sat 5th D... MBisanz
[quote name='Somey' post='208537' date='Sat 5th D... radek
Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more ... MBisanz
Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more... radek
See what I posted at the arb com Evidence page. ... Deputy Cabal Ringleader Radek, give it a rest. I already told you that it ... Guesswork Orange Anyway - I posted all the email headers at the ca... radek
[quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sun 6th D... Abd For example, the biggest email thread contains 46 ... MBisanz
[quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date... JohnA Somey:
I'll struggle to find a better synop... Sarcasticidealist I confess that, based solely on what's been pr...
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