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Anti-ID group (IDCAB) begins again?, Can't tell you how much I missed that friendly bunch. |
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Sxeptomaniac |
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I had really hoped they'd keep themselves under control after FeloniousMonk's desysopping a while back, but they appear to be back at it again. Cla68 seems to have stirred them up by trying to add a "Scientific theories" category to the Intelligent Design article. Don't think it was a really good idea, but it doesn't justify the reaction. Now Hrafn has decided to tag various articles as being Creationism stubs, including James Tour, a guy who has specifically said that he's not an intelligent design supporter. He signed a petition, so therefore he's a creationist, even if he says otherwise, right? Never mind that he's done nothing else related to creationism, and all indicators are that he never will. Now Guettarda's gaming to try to keep the tag in (since when is the burden of evidence on the one removing material from a BLP?). I really did not want to get involved with these people again, but I'm not letting them go back to messing with BLPs like they did in the past. This post has been edited by Sxeptomaniac:
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Doc glasgow |
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Wikipedia:The Sump of All Human Knowledge
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Fri 21st January 2011, 11:11am) Back in the mid 80s I was the duty chemist in a chemical factory on the night shift. I had a young guy as an assistant which they used to call "Basher" as he could be found testifying in the shopping mall at the weekend and doing the same in the pubs in the evening. Nice enough kid and we sort of got on OK - until this one night when there was little to do, and he was bored and wanted something to read. Without thinking I gave him the latest issue of the " New Internationalist" to read, it was sponsored by Oxfam, Save The Children, and Christian Aid, amongst others. Anyway he took one look at it, put it down, walk out of the lab and I never saw him for the rest of the shift, also he didn't speak to me for a month. The reason was that particular issue had articles on dinosaurs and fossils. A long time ago a picked up a book on Creation Science - it sat unread on a bookcase among thousands of others. When studying in a liberal university, a friend was doing an essay on a related topic, and I offered to lend her the book for her interest. When I brought it in for her, I was seen with it in the common room. What happened next astounded me: liberal, broad-minded people, responded with scorn and anger to the very idea anyone would even read the book. It was book-burning anger. I am NOT (and never have been) a proponent of Creation Science, but it struck me that had I entered that same liberal common room with a copy of Mein Kampf people would have given me the benefit of the doubt, and perhaps even applauded a broad reading scope of even objectionable books. Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, new-age mantras, feng shui, and any other amount of unscientific mumbo-jumbo. Why is it that ID so causes their blood to boil? If they are so confident of the strength of the intellectual argument against it, why are they so bloody defensive? (Even here in the UK, where there is no history of interference with education.) Kelly is correct, if the anti-ID position is so strong, then gaming the article should be utterly unnecessary.
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Cyclopia |
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Abominable sociopath, kool-aid addict.
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Fri 21st January 2011, 11:27am) Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, new-age mantras, feng shui, and any other amount of unscientific mumbo-jumbo. Why is it that ID so causes their blood to boil? If they are so confident of the strength of the intellectual argument against it, why are they so bloody defensive? (Even here in the UK, where there is no history of interference with education.)
Kelly is correct, if the anti-ID position is so strong, then gaming the article should be utterly unnecessary.
Well, I personally do not tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, and almost all unscientific mumbo-jumbo. But you have a good point. The answer -at least for myself- is that while it is easy to show that horoscopes and Scientology are nonsensical BS, Creationism and ID instead dangerously disguise as science. And disproving their arguments, while easy for the scientifically educated person, is not so easy for an educated person but with a weak scientific background. They can look convincing. Often to disprove many of their apparently reasonable arguments you have to resort to very long explanation and introduce concepts which are not immediately trivial -and many people will prefer of course to listen to the easier,clearer (but deeply wrong) version.
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Jagärdu |
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QUOTE(Cyclopia @ Fri 21st January 2011, 1:14pm) QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Fri 21st January 2011, 11:27am) Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, new-age mantras, feng shui, and any other amount of unscientific mumbo-jumbo. Why is it that ID so causes their blood to boil? If they are so confident of the strength of the intellectual argument against it, why are they so bloody defensive? (Even here in the UK, where there is no history of interference with education.)
Kelly is correct, if the anti-ID position is so strong, then gaming the article should be utterly unnecessary.
Well, I personally do not tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, and almost all unscientific mumbo-jumbo. But you have a good point. The answer -at least for myself- is that while it is easy to show that horoscopes and Scientology are nonsensical BS, Creationism and ID instead dangerously disguise as science. And disproving their arguments, while easy for the scientifically educated person, is not so easy for an educated person but with a weak scientific background. They can look convincing. Often to disprove many of their apparently reasonable arguments you have to resort to very long explanation and introduce concepts which are not immediately trivial -and many people will prefer of course to listen to the easier,clearer (but deeply wrong) version. The answer is much simpler, and entirely political (at least in the United States). I'm a liberal myself, but I detest all the culture wars nonsense that gets pandered about by both liberal and conservative politicians and talking heads to rile up their constituents/consumers. A couple of years ago I recall arguing with a friend who was convinced that George Bush's "No Child Left Behind" forced schools to teach ID in order to get funding. Say what? The history of this "debate" in the United States is a political history. The only reason it appears in the conscious of the 90% of the population who aren't fanatical nutjubs on either side, is strictly politics. ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as harmless as the tooth fairy. But liberals are made to fear conservatives and their ideas (and vice versa), especially the ideas that are less important when push comes to shove, because that's how you play the political game here. This post has been edited by Jagärdu:
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Sxeptomaniac |
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QUOTE(Jagärdu @ Fri 21st January 2011, 6:28am) The answer is much simpler, and entirely political (at least in the United States). I'm a liberal myself, but I detest all the culture wars nonsense that gets pandered about by both liberal and conservative politicians and talking heads to rile up their constituents/consumers. A couple of years ago I recall arguing with a friend who was convinced that George Bush's "No Child Left Behind" forced schools to teach ID in order to get funding. Say what? The history of this "debate" in the United States is a political history. The only reason it appears in the conscious of the 90% of the population who aren't fanatical nutjubs on either side, is strictly politics. ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as harmless as the tooth fairy. But liberals are made to fear conservatives and their ideas (and vice versa), especially the ideas that are less important when push comes to shove, because that's how you play the political game here.
This is true. Each end of the political spectrum here fear each other, and have various pundits perfectly happy to stoke that fear further. In the case of ID, the anti-ID zealots often combine that fear with condescension and hate, while thinking of themselves as the elite saviors of science. The thing many anti-ID people don't understand is that their hate feeds ID proponents as much as anything. It gives them the opportunity to play martyr. A dispassionate argument is far more likely to be effective, if anything could be. The displays of loathing simply allow the ID supporter to remake themselves into a victim.
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Jagärdu |
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QUOTE(Sxeptomaniac @ Fri 21st January 2011, 3:59pm) QUOTE(Jagärdu @ Fri 21st January 2011, 6:28am) The answer is much simpler, and entirely political (at least in the United States). I'm a liberal myself, but I detest all the culture wars nonsense that gets pandered about by both liberal and conservative politicians and talking heads to rile up their constituents/consumers. A couple of years ago I recall arguing with a friend who was convinced that George Bush's "No Child Left Behind" forced schools to teach ID in order to get funding. Say what? The history of this "debate" in the United States is a political history. The only reason it appears in the conscious of the 90% of the population who aren't fanatical nutjubs on either side, is strictly politics. ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as harmless as the tooth fairy. But liberals are made to fear conservatives and their ideas (and vice versa), especially the ideas that are less important when push comes to shove, because that's how you play the political game here.
This is true. Each end of the political spectrum here fear each other, and have various pundits perfectly happy to stoke that fear further. In the case of ID, the anti-ID zealots often combine that fear with condescension and hate, while thinking of themselves as the elite saviors of science. The thing many anti-ID people don't understand is that their hate feeds ID proponents as much as anything. It gives them the opportunity to play martyr. A dispassionate argument is far more likely to be effective, if anything could be. The displays of loathing simply allow the ID supporter to remake themselves into a victim. Bingo. That's why I don't get all worked into a frenzy over this all the time like some people do. ID is not a "scientific theory", and the category would never stick on Wikipedia and it hasn't. End of story. No big deal.
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Posts in this topic
Sxeptomaniac Anti-ID group (IDCAB) begins again? Cla68
I had really hoped they'd keep themselves und... NuclearWarfare Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent design... Doc glasgow
Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent desig... Sarcasticidealist It is a theory, and it relates to science. Define ... taiwopanfob In the interests of clarity and in having words me... RMHED
In the interests of clarity and in having words ... Sarcasticidealist Why not also allow the clergy to define what is re... RMHED
But comparing the clergy to scientists is also s... Doc glasgow
In the interests of clarity and in having words... Sarcasticidealist It is worse than that. Scientists defining what is... Doc glasgow
It is worse than that. Scientists defining what i... Sarcasticidealist That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Design... radek
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... RMHED
Btw, one strong argument in favor evolution over... radek
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th ... radek
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th... Sarcasticidealist While we're on the topic I also think that His... RMHED
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th... Sarcasticidealist Evolution can be tested via inferential statistics... RMHED
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='266150' dat... Sarcasticidealist Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... RMHED
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... SB_Johnny
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... RMHED
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... Milton Roe
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... Cla68
[quote name='Doc glasgow' post='266158' date='Wed... EricBarbour Anyway, you all are making good points about what ... CharlotteWebb
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... Cla68 I believe this and this threads show that, at leas... lilburne
I don't know how one would begin to be neut... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='266196' date='Thu 20th ... Sxeptomaniac
ID proponents do strike me as nutjobs if they tru... Cla68
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='266138' dat... Milton Roe
[quote name='NuclearWarfare' post='266134' date='... RMHED
And yes, sciences are predictive. Even in the br... Milton Roe
And yes, sciences are predictive. Even in the b... Lar
Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent desig... lilburne
But some people seem to, and if there are enough ... Milton Roe
But some people seem to, and if there are enough... lilburne
As with proponents of ID: they poison the min... Cla68
But some people seem to, and if there are enough... lilburne
[quote name='lilburne' post='266239' date='Thu 20... Kelly Martin I think that part of the problem is that a fair an... lilburne ID: A religious hoax, masquerading as science, tha... lonza leggiera
... See Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District ... Doc glasgow The Creation Science article contains, not to put ... Milton Roe
The Creation Science article contains, not to put... Cyclopia
The Creation Science article contains, not to put... Kelly Martin The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed ideo... Doc glasgow
The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed ide... Milton Roe
The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed id... taiwopanfob So, what jobs are left? Do we need god to make hum... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='266270' date='Fri ... Kelly Martin Looks to me like a lot of it is a fight between pe... Doc glasgow
The "neutral point of view" is that int... lilburne
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='266274' date='Fr... Lar
Looks to me like a lot of it is a fight between p... Kelly Martin I call BS. As with the CC fiasco, some participant... Lar
I call BS. As with the CC fiasco, some participan... Sxeptomaniac
The sad thing is that the argument for intelligen... EricBarbour And that's it. The anti-ID group likes to mak... lilburne
Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Sciento... Cyclopia
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 21... Jagärdu
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 2... CharlotteWebb
ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as har... Kelly Martin ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as harm... Milton Roe
ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as har... lilburne
[The thing many anti-ID people don't understa... Doc glasgow
[The thing many anti-ID people don't underst... lilburne
[quote name='lilburne' post='266326' date='Fri 21... CharlotteWebb http://i51.tinypic.com/2r2xaix.jpg Milton Roe
http://i51.tinypic.com/2r2xaix.jpg
You know, met... Sxeptomaniac
Any animal that couldn't get underground or u... Cla68 The answer -at least for myself- is that while it ... lilburne
If I say on the ID talk page, "Present the a... Cla68
If I say on the ID talk page, "Present the ... lilburne
So, you're scared that someone might accident... taiwopanfob
So, you're scared that someone might acciden... Milton Roe
[quote name='Cla68' post='266386' date='Sat 22nd ... Kelly Martin That is part of the problem with the IDCab. They ... Gruntled
Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous; ... Cedric
Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous;... Kelly Martin
Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous;... Cyclopia
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 21... taiwopanfob The point is that if you don't say that ID has... Cla68 I think it was Doc Glasgow who said in relation to... Kelly Martin There are portions of the evolutionary model that ... Doc glasgow Whilst I didn't agree with all of it, I can he... Cyclopia
Whilst I didn't agree with all of it, I can h... lilburne +10 Very cute.
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.c... CharlotteWebb
DAw-nkD8G2Q
[size=3][i]It seemed so plausible... Milton Roe
+10 Very cute.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albu... SB_Johnny
+10 Very cute.
http://i288.photobucket.com/alb... lonza leggiera
... Elohim (the gods) really should be plural in ... SB_Johnny A contribution from the wilderness from somebody w... lilburne Don't know who Hrafn is but this was an enjoya... Cla68
Don't know who [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w... Sxeptomaniac
Don't know who [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/... Kwork
Don't know who Hrafn is but this was an enjoy... lilburne
For my pains I watched the debate Berlinski ha... EricBarbour [quote name='lilburne' post='267381' date='Thu 3rd... EricBarbour Just got a reminder that Moulton repeatedly outed ...
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