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Anti-ID group (IDCAB) begins again?, Can't tell you how much I missed that friendly bunch. |
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Sxeptomaniac |
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Senior Member
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I had really hoped they'd keep themselves under control after FeloniousMonk's desysopping a while back, but they appear to be back at it again. Cla68 seems to have stirred them up by trying to add a "Scientific theories" category to the Intelligent Design article. Don't think it was a really good idea, but it doesn't justify the reaction. Now Hrafn has decided to tag various articles as being Creationism stubs, including James Tour, a guy who has specifically said that he's not an intelligent design supporter. He signed a petition, so therefore he's a creationist, even if he says otherwise, right? Never mind that he's done nothing else related to creationism, and all indicators are that he never will. Now Guettarda's gaming to try to keep the tag in (since when is the burden of evidence on the one removing material from a BLP?). I really did not want to get involved with these people again, but I'm not letting them go back to messing with BLPs like they did in the past. This post has been edited by Sxeptomaniac:
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Doc glasgow |
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Wikipedia:The Sump of All Human Knowledge
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Fri 21st January 2011, 11:11am) Back in the mid 80s I was the duty chemist in a chemical factory on the night shift. I had a young guy as an assistant which they used to call "Basher" as he could be found testifying in the shopping mall at the weekend and doing the same in the pubs in the evening. Nice enough kid and we sort of got on OK - until this one night when there was little to do, and he was bored and wanted something to read. Without thinking I gave him the latest issue of the " New Internationalist" to read, it was sponsored by Oxfam, Save The Children, and Christian Aid, amongst others. Anyway he took one look at it, put it down, walk out of the lab and I never saw him for the rest of the shift, also he didn't speak to me for a month. The reason was that particular issue had articles on dinosaurs and fossils. A long time ago a picked up a book on Creation Science - it sat unread on a bookcase among thousands of others. When studying in a liberal university, a friend was doing an essay on a related topic, and I offered to lend her the book for her interest. When I brought it in for her, I was seen with it in the common room. What happened next astounded me: liberal, broad-minded people, responded with scorn and anger to the very idea anyone would even read the book. It was book-burning anger. I am NOT (and never have been) a proponent of Creation Science, but it struck me that had I entered that same liberal common room with a copy of Mein Kampf people would have given me the benefit of the doubt, and perhaps even applauded a broad reading scope of even objectionable books. Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, new-age mantras, feng shui, and any other amount of unscientific mumbo-jumbo. Why is it that ID so causes their blood to boil? If they are so confident of the strength of the intellectual argument against it, why are they so bloody defensive? (Even here in the UK, where there is no history of interference with education.) Kelly is correct, if the anti-ID position is so strong, then gaming the article should be utterly unnecessary.
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Cyclopia |
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Abominable sociopath, kool-aid addict.
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Fri 21st January 2011, 11:27am) Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, new-age mantras, feng shui, and any other amount of unscientific mumbo-jumbo. Why is it that ID so causes their blood to boil? If they are so confident of the strength of the intellectual argument against it, why are they so bloody defensive? (Even here in the UK, where there is no history of interference with education.)
Kelly is correct, if the anti-ID position is so strong, then gaming the article should be utterly unnecessary.
Well, I personally do not tolerate horoscopes, Scientology, and almost all unscientific mumbo-jumbo. But you have a good point. The answer -at least for myself- is that while it is easy to show that horoscopes and Scientology are nonsensical BS, Creationism and ID instead dangerously disguise as science. And disproving their arguments, while easy for the scientifically educated person, is not so easy for an educated person but with a weak scientific background. They can look convincing. Often to disprove many of their apparently reasonable arguments you have to resort to very long explanation and introduce concepts which are not immediately trivial -and many people will prefer of course to listen to the easier,clearer (but deeply wrong) version.
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Kelly Martin |
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Bring back the guttersnipes!
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Fri 21st January 2011, 9:02pm) That is part of the problem with the IDCab. They seem to believe that most of Wikipedia's readers are idiots and wouldn't be able to decide for themselves that ID is silly unless the article assuredly tells them that it is. It would be nice if we could, in fact, assume that Wikipedia readers are not idiots. I would like to believe that the people who go to Wikipedia are the sort who want to learn something, enough that they'll read closely and completely and think about what they read. Unfortunately, I think that actually holding that belief would be profoundly delusional. Certainly it's not true of far too many of Wikipedia's editors, and in general I think most of the people looking at Wikipedia at any given time are simply trying to get enough information to answer their homework assignment, or to win a bar bet; they're not going to be doing a complex critical analysis of everything they read. The simple fact is that most people are idiots, or at least willing to act as if they're one unless specifically prodded not to. Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous; they uncritically assume that what they read on Wikipedia is true. If they didn't, they wouldn't be reading Wikipedia at all.
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Kelly Martin |
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Bring back the guttersnipes!
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QUOTE(Gruntled @ Sun 23rd January 2011, 4:58am) QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sat 22nd January 2011, 2:31pm) Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous; they uncritically assume that what they read on Wikipedia is true. If they didn't, they wouldn't be reading Wikipedia at all.
I agree at least 95% of the time with Kelly, but I think she's gone just a tad far here. Yes, there are many people who uncriticallly accept everything they find on the Internet. It's not a problem peculiar to Wikipedia. Equally, there are people who go to Wikipedia to find photos and links. If anything, Wikipedia compounds the general problem of idiocy on the internet by shellacking its essentially random content with a thin coating of encyclopedic respectability. Encyclopedias, as everyone knows, are edited by knowledgeable people and reviewed closely by people who would know to make sure they're correct. It's a lot easier to believe Wikipedia, which claims to be, after all, an "encyclopedia", than it is to believe Joe's Blog About Cars, especially since the latter has pictures of Joe's puppies prominently displayed just above his very-well researched article about the 1962 Corvette. The reader isn't going to realize that Joe is quite likely more knowledgeable on that topic than Wikipedia, unless (as is quite likely the case) the Wikipedia article was written by Joe. The simply truth is that most people don't critically evaluate what they hear, no matter where they hear it. ("The Daily Show: Where more people get their news than probably should.") But they're even less likely to do so if they hear it from someone who says it under color of respectability, and Wikipedia has long tried to engender a false aura of respectability, when in reality it's just a gigantic graffiti wall. To bring this back to topic, this is essentially the same strategy being used by ID proponents: they are taking a religious belief and dipping it in a thin coating of scientific shellac to make it appear to be a scientific theory, to take advantage of the fact that many people (especially those who grew up in the third quarter of the last century) have been enculturated to trust scientists pretty much without question. Scientists don't lie, after all. They're just not capable of it!
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Posts in this topic
Sxeptomaniac Anti-ID group (IDCAB) begins again? Cla68
I had really hoped they'd keep themselves und... NuclearWarfare Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent design... Doc glasgow
Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent desig... Sarcasticidealist It is a theory, and it relates to science. Define ... taiwopanfob In the interests of clarity and in having words me... RMHED
In the interests of clarity and in having words ... Sarcasticidealist Why not also allow the clergy to define what is re... RMHED
But comparing the clergy to scientists is also s... Doc glasgow
In the interests of clarity and in having words... Sarcasticidealist It is worse than that. Scientists defining what is... Doc glasgow
It is worse than that. Scientists defining what i... Sarcasticidealist That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Design... radek
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... RMHED
Btw, one strong argument in favor evolution over... radek
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th ... radek
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th... Sarcasticidealist While we're on the topic I also think that His... RMHED
[quote name='radek' post='266169' date='Thu 20th... Sarcasticidealist Evolution can be tested via inferential statistics... RMHED
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='266150' dat... Sarcasticidealist Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... RMHED
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... SB_Johnny
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... RMHED
Anthropogenic global warming is the 21st Century... Milton Roe
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... Cla68
[quote name='Doc glasgow' post='266158' date='Wed... EricBarbour Anyway, you all are making good points about what ... CharlotteWebb
That's circular. To my mind Intelligent Desig... Cla68 I believe this and this threads show that, at leas... lilburne
I don't know how one would begin to be neut... Cla68
[quote name='Cla68' post='266196' date='Thu 20th ... Sxeptomaniac
ID proponents do strike me as nutjobs if they tru... Cla68
[quote name='Sarcasticidealist' post='266138' dat... Milton Roe
[quote name='NuclearWarfare' post='266134' date='... RMHED
And yes, sciences are predictive. Even in the br... Milton Roe
And yes, sciences are predictive. Even in the b... Lar
Cla, do you honestly think that intelligent desig... lilburne
But some people seem to, and if there are enough ... Milton Roe
But some people seem to, and if there are enough... lilburne
As with proponents of ID: they poison the min... Cla68
But some people seem to, and if there are enough... lilburne
[quote name='lilburne' post='266239' date='Thu 20... Kelly Martin I think that part of the problem is that a fair an... lilburne ID: A religious hoax, masquerading as science, tha... lonza leggiera
... See Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District ... Doc glasgow The Creation Science article contains, not to put ... Milton Roe
The Creation Science article contains, not to put... Cyclopia
The Creation Science article contains, not to put... Kelly Martin The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed ideo... Doc glasgow
The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed ide... Milton Roe
The ID/anti-ID fight is one between committed id... taiwopanfob So, what jobs are left? Do we need god to make hum... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='266270' date='Fri ... Kelly Martin Looks to me like a lot of it is a fight between pe... Doc glasgow
The "neutral point of view" is that int... lilburne
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='266274' date='Fr... Lar
Looks to me like a lot of it is a fight between p... Kelly Martin I call BS. As with the CC fiasco, some participant... Lar
I call BS. As with the CC fiasco, some participan... Sxeptomaniac
The sad thing is that the argument for intelligen... EricBarbour And that's it. The anti-ID group likes to mak... lilburne
Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Sciento... Jagärdu
Intelligent liberals tolerate horoscopes, Scient... Cyclopia
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 21... Jagärdu
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 2... CharlotteWebb
ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as har... Kelly Martin ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as harm... Milton Roe
ID is utter nonesense, but it is also just as har... Sxeptomaniac
The answer is much simpler, and entirely politica... lilburne
[The thing many anti-ID people don't understa... Doc glasgow
[The thing many anti-ID people don't underst... lilburne
[quote name='lilburne' post='266326' date='Fri 21... CharlotteWebb http://i51.tinypic.com/2r2xaix.jpg Milton Roe
http://i51.tinypic.com/2r2xaix.jpg
You know, met... Sxeptomaniac
Any animal that couldn't get underground or u... Jagärdu
The answer is much simpler, and entirely politic... Sxeptomaniac
Bingo. That's why I don't get all worked... lilburne
If I say on the ID talk page, "Present the a... Cla68
If I say on the ID talk page, "Present the ... lilburne
So, you're scared that someone might accident... taiwopanfob
So, you're scared that someone might acciden... Milton Roe
[quote name='Cla68' post='266386' date='Sat 22nd ... Cedric
Wikipedia's readers are generally credulous;... Cyclopia
[quote name='Cyclopia' post='266305' date='Fri 21... taiwopanfob The point is that if you don't say that ID has... Cla68 I think it was Doc Glasgow who said in relation to... Kelly Martin There are portions of the evolutionary model that ... Doc glasgow Whilst I didn't agree with all of it, I can he... Cyclopia
Whilst I didn't agree with all of it, I can h... lilburne +10 Very cute.
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.c... CharlotteWebb
DAw-nkD8G2Q
[size=3][i]It seemed so plausible... Milton Roe
+10 Very cute.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albu... SB_Johnny
+10 Very cute.
http://i288.photobucket.com/alb... lonza leggiera
... Elohim (the gods) really should be plural in ... SB_Johnny A contribution from the wilderness from somebody w... lilburne Don't know who Hrafn is but this was an enjoya... Cla68
Don't know who [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w... Sxeptomaniac
Don't know who [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/... Kwork
Don't know who Hrafn is but this was an enjoy... lilburne
For my pains I watched the debate Berlinski ha... EricBarbour [quote name='lilburne' post='267381' date='Thu 3rd... EricBarbour Just got a reminder that Moulton repeatedly outed ...
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