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> Wikipedia promotes cruel, agonizing, inhumane method of "euthanasia" (annexed), which, in one out of five cases in the Netherlands, is actually MURDER
Anna
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Wikipedia claims that "Published studies indicate that "within the context of adequate palliative care, the refusal of food and fluids does not contribute to suffering among the terminally ill", and might actually contribute to a comfortable passage from life"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_illn...n_and_hydration

In fact, dehydration is a very cruel, agonizing, inhumane way to murder someone. According to Dr. David Stevens, who unlike some alleged "experts" has actually seen people die this way:
"Is dying of thirst and dehydration a painless death as some experts have asserted? Most so-called experts have never seen someone die in this manner. Unfortunately, having worked for 13 years in Africa, where the most common cause of death in children is dehydration from gastroenteritis, I have seen hundreds if not thousands of patients with dehydration and some of them so far gone, that despite resuscitation attempts, they died.

As dehydration begins, there is extreme thirst, dry mouth and thick saliva," Dr. Stevens explained. "The patient becomes dizzy, faint and unable to stand or sit; has severe cramping in the arms and legs as the sodium and potassium concentrations in the body go up as fluids go down. In misery, the patient tries to cry but there are no tears. The patient experiences severe abdominal cramps, nausea and dry-heaving as the stomach and intestines dry out.

By now the skin and lips are cracking and the tongue is swollen," Dr. Stevens continued. "The nose may bleed as the mucous membranes dry out and break down. The skin loses elasticity, thins and wrinkles. The hands and feet become cold as the remaining fluids in the circulatory system are shunted to the vital organs in an attempt to stay alive. The person stops urinating and has severe headaches as their brain shrinks from lack of fluids. The patient becomes anxious and gets progressively more lethargic.

Some patients have hallucinations and seizures as their body chemistry becomes even more imbalanced. This proceeds to coma before death occurs. The final event as the blood pressure becomes almost undetectable is a major heart arrhythmia that stops the heart from pumping.

Contrary to those that try to paint a picture of a gentle process, death by dehydration is a cruel, inhumane and often agonizing death."
http://www.life.org.nz/euthanasia/abouteut...of-euthanasia1/

Starvation is also a very painful way to go.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/l...05/aug/05081606

A man named Burke sought guarantee from the United Kingdom courts that he would not be murdered in this fashion, but was denied by a cruel, inhumane judge:
http://www.bcptl.org/euthanasia.htm#Burke2

In fact, "involuntary euthanasia" (READ: MURDER) is surprisingly common. In Holland, one in five cases of "euthanasia" occur without the explicit consent of the patient, and it is not unheard of in other countries, like the United Kingdom and Canada.
http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html
http://elderadvocates.ca/exploring-physici...sisted-suicide/

In one case in Canada, a court held that any Substitute Decision Maker who refused to consent to this cruel method of MURDER was incompetent to make decisions for the patient, who was a pastor.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2574608/posts
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Kelly Martin
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Anna, let's be clear here. We all know that Wikipedia's article are full of eels. It's not news, and we're really not that interested in hearing a polemic argument from someone who is just upset that Wikipedia's house point of view doesn't agree with theirs.

Rather, for most of us our main concern is in the broader trends that go wider than one, or a small number, of articles, in the dysfunctional social environment that underlies Wikipedia, in Wikipedia's recurrent use as a vehicle for defamation and for advocacy generally, and related such things.
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Angela Kennedy
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Mon 20th June 2011, 2:40pm) *

Anna, let's be clear here. We all know that Wikipedia's article are full of eels. It's not news, and we're really not that interested in hearing a polemic argument from someone who is just upset that Wikipedia's house point of view doesn't agree with theirs.

Rather, for most of us our main concern is in the broader trends that go wider than one, or a small number, of articles, in the dysfunctional social environment that underlies Wikipedia, in Wikipedia's recurrent use as a vehicle for defamation and for advocacy generally, and related such things.


But agenda pushing on Wikipedia and its real world effects do matter. The fact Wikipedia HAS a 'house point of view' is itself a problem.

Milt- you have to watch ALL of Logan's Run, you know, not just the first 15 minutes...
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Milton Roe
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QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Mon 20th June 2011, 2:06pm) *

Milt- you have to watch ALL of Logan's Run, you know, not just the first 15 minutes...

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/pinch.gif) Eh? You're going to suggest that my knowledge of SF, geriatrics and gerontology is deficient? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) You have no idea. The problem is more that I know too much about these, than too little.

If you want a scene better than the dippy English preppy York asking Peter Ustinov if his wrinkles hurt, I suggest you review the scene in Soylent Green where Edward G. Robinson makes very sure he gets his full 30 minutes of Fantasia-like production at the euthanasia center. Robinson knew he had cancer at the time (as the director did not), so this is the genuine article.
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Angela Kennedy
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 21st June 2011, 12:21am) *

QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Mon 20th June 2011, 2:06pm) *

Milt- you have to watch ALL of Logan's Run, you know, not just the first 15 minutes...

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/pinch.gif) Eh? You're going to suggest that my knowledge of SF, geriatrics and gerontology is deficient? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) You have no idea. The problem is more that I know too much about these, than too little.

If you want a scene better than the dippy English preppy York asking Peter Ustinov if his wrinkles hurt, I suggest you review the scene in Soylent Green where Edward G. Robinson makes very sure he gets his full 30 minutes of Fantasia-like production at the euthanasia center. Robinson knew he had cancer at the time (as the director did not), so this is the genuine article.


WELL! I have intricate first-hand knowledge of gerontology, geriatrics, terminal illness AND severe stigmatised disability in the young (that's actually all true). So I TRUMP you! SO THERE! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

But seriously, your particular position scares the bejabers out of me, yet Anna gets the rebuke, which also scares me.

My position - voluntary euthanasia has precedent of slipping easily into involuntary euthanasia: we've seen it at least twice, in Holland and in Nazi Germany. The evidence is there in those links Anna posted that no-one can be arsed to read, and Michael Burleigh documented the Nazi policies (and demonstrated how easily the slippery slope looms) in his book 'Death and Deliverance'.

I don't like any of that cos I want the freedom to live as long as life is available to me naturally, whatever my impairments, and I want the same for my daughter. Call me selfish. But I want it for everyone else as well. And I think those that want to deny that to the sick tend to use utilitarian health economic reasons- mm - irrationally, usually from a position of (temporary) health, and contempt for the unhealthy.

This is actually a huge issue which I can't do justice to here. I'm only speaking about it now because Anna's got mighty short shrift while Milty's waxed lyrical on this issue without rebuke, which has made the "we don't deal in specific issues Anna- you silly girl for bringing it to us" refrain somewhat inconsistent.

Anna's come here with a fair reason. She's aware of the real-world effects of wikipedia's 'house' POV on this issue. Her concerns are exemplary of key problems of wikipedia (the House POV, the agenda pushing), and she's shown good knowledge of that in her posts. I do think WR should be at the forefront of understanding that 'House' POV also- and how/why it's evolved. That should come under WR's remit.


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Herschelkrustofsky
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QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Tue 21st June 2011, 4:58am) *

Anna's come here with a fair reason. She's aware of the real-world effects of wikipedia's 'house' POV on this issue. Her concerns are exemplary of key problems of wikipedia (the House POV, the agenda pushing), and she's shown good knowledge of that in her posts. I do think WR should be at the forefront of understanding that 'House' POV also- and how/why it's evolved. That should come under WR's remit.
Personally, I agree with every word of this, although I know my views are not universally shared.

QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Tue 21st June 2011, 4:58am) *

My position - voluntary euthanasia has precedent of slipping easily into involuntary euthanasia: we've seen it at least twice, in Holland and in Nazi Germany.


We have been over this issue before, in our marathon debate about Obamacare. My position -- the most vocal advocates of euthanasia are motivated not by compassionate or humanitarian concerns, but rather by the proverbial bottom line: insurance companies and HMOs, whose profit goes up as the level of care delivered goes down. And, the definitive statement on the "slippery slope" comes from Dr. Leo Alexander at the Nuremberg trials:
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Whatever proportions these crimes finally assumed, it became evident to all who investigated them that they had started from small beginnings. The beginnings at first were merely a subtle shift in emphasis in basic attitude, basic in the euthanasia movement, that there is such a thing as a life not worthy to be lived.
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Posts in this topic
Anna   Wikipedia promotes cruel, agonizing, inhumane method of "euthanasia" (annexed)  
Milton Roe   Wikipedia claims that "Published studies ind...  
Anna   [quote name='Anna' post='277194' date='Sat 18th J...  
Milton Roe   That would hardly prevent the most serious sympto...  
Anna   That would hardly prevent the most serious sympt...  
Milton Roe   Pain is often not apparent on the face. I have kn...  
Anna   [quote name='Anna' post='277198' ...  
It's the blimp, Frank   The chronic US argument is that acceptance of thi...  
Milton Roe   The chronic US argument is that acceptance of th...  
It's the blimp, Frank   I myself happen to support voluntary euthanasia l...  
Anna   [quote name='Milton Roe' post='277196' date='Sun ...  
Milton Roe   In the Netherlands, apparently 4 out of 5 euthana...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Milton Roe' post='277196' date='Sun ...  
Anna   [quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='277...  
Milton Roe   That sort of thing really ought to go in writing,...  
Sololol   The source looks policy compliant. Why not find a ...  
Anna   The source looks policy compliant. Why not find a...  
EricBarbour   Nevertheless, putting such horribly wrong informa...  
Anna   Nevertheless, putting such horribly wrong inform...  
Kevin   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused:  
Anna   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused: I...  
Zoloft   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused: ...  
A Horse With No Name   If you're too lazy to read, perhaps you shoul...  
Abd   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused:What...  
Anna   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused:What...  
RMHED   And you completely missed the part about the liv...  
Milton Roe   And you completely missed the part about the li...  
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='277224' date='Sun 19th Jun...  
Anna   [quote name='Abd' post='277224' date='Sun 19th Ju...  
melloden   No one cares about old people on Wikipedia. Unless...  
Milton Roe   No one cares about old people on Wikipedia. Unles...  
Kevin   Can we get Abd to summarize this? :confused:What...  
NuclearWarfare   Not going to lie, a lot of your post was tl;dr. Bu...  
Anna   Not going to lie, a lot of your post was tl;dr. ...  
NuclearWarfare   Not going to lie, a lot of your post was tl;dr. ...  
Anna   [quote name='Anna' post='277227' date='Sun 19th J...  
Kelly Martin   What does all of this have to do with Wikipedia?  
Milton Roe   What does all of this have to do with Wikipedia? ...  
Anna   What does all of this have to do with Wikipedia? ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Mod's note: I'm of two minds on the subjec...  
SB_Johnny   Mod's note: I'm of two minds on the subje...  
EricBarbour   This thread clearly belongs in the support group f...  
Milton Roe   This thread clearly belongs in the support group ...  
Abd   Anna is already in the tarpit of uneven quote hell...  
gomi   [Modnote: Annexed.]  
Anna   Gomi wrote, "Modnote: Annexed." Hmmm......  
It's the blimp, Frank   I think that's a good description of the ...  
thekohser   Anna, it's hard to take you very seriously whe...  
Kelly Martin   But agenda pushing on Wikipedia and its real world...  
Abd   But agenda pushing on Wikipedia and its real world...  
Herschelkrustofsky   But agenda pushing on Wikipedia and its real worl...  
Anna   [quote name='Kelly Martin' post='277311' date='Mo...  
Milton Roe   Well, falsely labeling a topic as something ...  
radek   But agenda pushing on Wikipedia and its real worl...  
Angela Kennedy   Anna's come here with a fair reason. She...  
Kelly Martin   It does appear as if a 'House Point of View...  
Angela Kennedy   It does appear as if a 'House Point of View...  
Anna   Insulting someone's wife certainly is low. The...  
Anna   Disabled people, and family, friends, and other al...  
Anna   Top o' the morning to ya, Herschelkrustofsky...  
It's the blimp, Frank   Hey Milton -- is this guy related to you?  
Milton Roe   Hey Milton -- is this guy related to you? Which ...  
LessHorrid vanU   [quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='277...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='27...  
Detective   I'm comparing applies to applies, fair and sq...  
LessHorrid vanU   [quote name='LessHorrid vanU' post='277393' date=...  
Angela Kennedy   [quote name='It's the blimp, Frank' post='277...  
Milton Roe   But Switzerland only allows freely chosen assiste...  
Kelly Martin   A significant part of high medical costs in the US...  
Milton Roe   A significant part of high medical costs in the U...  


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