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Commons-hosted Muhammad Images |
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Wikitaka |
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For no reason, Xavexgoem protected the Muhammad RFC "to avoid SPIs", which is not a valid reason for semi-protection. What else does Xavexgoem have on his record?
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jsalsman |
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I used to be for including images until I found out that no contemporary depictions of Muhammad even exist. It's not about aniconism vs. NOTCENSORED, it's that there aren't any actual images of Muhammad. They are all made up, cartoons of someone else. So don't put any in the main article. Anyone who sees an image in the main article will be misled into thinking Muhammad may have looked like that when he didn't. That's completely unencyclopedic. Make a separate [[Depictions of Muhammad]] article and put them all there with a clear statement that they are all bogus in the first sentence.
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Somey |
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QUOTE(Tarc @ Thu 5th April 2012, 11:39am) So you used to be enlightened, but then became corrupted by someone's ignorant argument. I realize you're just trying to show your anti-Muslim credentials here, but why would anyone think that argument was "ignorant"? And obviously it's someone else's argument - it's a common-enough position to take on the issue, since it is, in fact, true. Or are you saying that if he doesn't have a brand-spanking-new reason to oppose inclusion of these images, he should just shut up? If so, then I'd have to say that's not very nice. Speaking of which, the only reason anyone even bothers to bring up additional arguments in the first place is because Wikipedians have already rejected the sanest, most rational, and most logical argument there is, which is that including the images is inherently insulting to vast numbers of people, and insulting people is not nice. If you're a legitimate "encyclopedia," you take key cultural sensitivities into account when and if you can. Since there's no requirement that Wikipedia include these images in order to properly cover the subjects of Islam and Mohammed's life, they most certainly can in this case. Of course, they're not a legitimate encyclopedia, so they don't take those sensitivities into account, and people end up having to make these otherwise-unnecessary (but hardly "ignorant") arguments. And that's just how they like it, because hey, moar drama! More attention for us! Wheeeeee! It's the very definition of "internet trolling," and Wikipedia does it routinely.
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Web Fred |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 6th April 2012, 12:01am) If you're a legitimate "encyclopedia," you take key cultural sensitivities into account when and if you can.
No you don't, because sooner or later what was once 'an inch thick' soon becomes a pamphlet. To avoid this you put in what is encyclopaedic and show an even hand across the board. Pictures of Jesus goi in? Then pics of Mo go in too. After all people are notoriously fickle about what they deem to be sensitive. If moslems want to dictate terms then they should start their own Wiki, Qu'raniWiki perhaps?
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Somey |
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QUOTE(Web Fred @ Fri 6th April 2012, 4:06am) If moslems want to dictate terms then they should start their own Wiki, Qu'raniWiki perhaps? That's a bit short-sighted, isn't it? Why alienate a billion people when you don't have to? (Unless you're running the Wikipedia Review, in which case I guess you want to alienate as many people as possible.) Obviously there's no danger of Wikipedia turning into a "pamphlet," though it would probably be an improvement if it did, and as for images of Jesus or of any other religious figure whose adherents don't mind their existence (putting aside the whole "graven images" thing), what is it they say about "a foolish consistency" again...? Mind you, I'm not a Muslim, in fact I don't even know any Muslims near where I live these days. I'd just like to know why so many people seem hell-bent on pissing them off for no good reason.
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Web Fred |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 6th April 2012, 10:17am)
Mind you, I'm not a Muslim, in fact I don't even know any Muslims near where I live these days. I'd just like to know why so many people seem hell-bent on pissing them off for no good reason.
But apparently it's fine for them to piss us off ad infinitum? But no, it isn't my intention to piss them off, merely to demonstrate that they don't dictate their cultural ideals to us. For example should they start their own wiki then I wouldn't dream of dictating anything to them, so why should they dictate their POV on a western-centric (please don't quote NPOV, there's no way in hell it'll ever be NPOV) encyclopaedia. How about, for example, a team of moslem writers come to the 9/11 article and started entering information from the Islamic side of things? Other than MONGO having a meltdown of course, what do you think would happen to NPOV then. What if they demand that certain Islamic beliefs should be upheld in the article? And no, I'm not anti-moslem, at least no more than I am anti-christian. What I am against is stupidity. And to demand that archival imagery shouldn't be included in a Wikipedia article is, in my personal view, stupidity personified.
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Mister Die |
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QUOTE(Web Fred @ Fri 6th April 2012, 9:55am) And no, I'm not anti-moslem, at least no more than I am anti-christian. What I am against is stupidity. And to demand that archival imagery shouldn't be included in a Wikipedia article is, in my personal view, stupidity personified.
You're an internet atheist with Aspergers who rants against religion. I don't recall any book encyclopedias having portraits of Muhammad, because there's simply no strong reason to have it. Again, you either wind up with "here's a medieval portrayal by Christians of Muhammad burning in hell" or something, or "here's an Islamic depiction of Muhammad with his face veiled." Since there's apparently no portrayal of Muhammad based on what his contemporaries actually described his facial features and such as (although there would probably be people willing to make half-assed svg images to get around that), the best bet you could go for would be the aforementioned veiled images. But then that isn't supposed to happen because that means we give in to the dreaded Islamofascists or whatever (most of whom at any rate would prefer no portrayals whatsoever), so instead the article has random portrayals of Muhammad which tend to exist solely for the benefit of showing how "not censored" (read: "TAKE THAT TOTALITARIAN MOSLEM SWINE") Wikipedia is. With Jesus there's an overwhelming portrayal in the world of him as a "WASP" character (to the extent that modern derivative portrayals outside of Europe tend to just be "him" with a slightly darker skin color), no matter the portrait. This post has been edited by Mister Die:
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Web Fred |
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QUOTE(Mister Die @ Fri 6th April 2012, 2:47pm) QUOTE(Web Fred @ Fri 6th April 2012, 9:55am) And no, I'm not anti-moslem, at least no more than I am anti-christian. What I am against is stupidity. And to demand that archival imagery shouldn't be included in a Wikipedia article is, in my personal view, stupidity personified.
You're an internet atheist with Aspergers who rants against religion. I don't recall any book encyclopedias having portraits of Muhammad, because there's simply no strong reason to have it. Again, you either wind up with "here's a medieval portrayal by Christians of Muhammad burning in hell" or something, or "here's an Islamic depiction of Muhammad with his face veiled." Since there's apparently no portrayal of Muhammad based on what his contemporaries actually described his facial features and such as (although there would probably be people willing to make half-assed svg images to get around that), the best bet you could go for would be the aforementioned veiled images. But then that isn't supposed to happen because that means we give in to the dreaded Islamofascists or whatever (most of whom at any rate would prefer no portrayals whatsoever), so instead the article has random portrayals of Muhammad which tend to exist solely for the benefit of showing how "not censored" (read: "TAKE THAT TOTALITARIAN MOSLEM SWINE") Wikipedia is. With Jesus there's an overwhelming portrayal in the world of him as a "WASP" character (to the extent that modern derivative portrayals outside of Europe tend to just be "him" with a slightly darker skin color), no matter the portrait. I'm not sure what my Asperger's has to do with it, and I certainly wasn't ranting, merely stating an opinion. Your diatribe appeared to be much more a rant than mine. You were right about me being anti-religion (but not anti-personal-belief). And living one's life to the dictates from a work of fiction, whether it be the Qu'ran or the bible, is simply something I can't get my head around. It's akin to being lead by the beliefs and values of JK Rowling. The other thing I can't get my head around is the argument that none of these pictures are a true likeness of Mo. If that's the case, then why is the argument there that they don't won't pics of Mo appearing, when everyone says they aren't actually Mo. You'll be telling me next that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead.
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Mister Die |
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QUOTE(Web Fred @ Fri 6th April 2012, 2:51pm) The other thing I can't get my head around is the argument that none of these pictures are a true likeness of Mo. If that's the case, then why is the argument there that they don't won't pics of Mo appearing, when everyone says they aren't actually Mo. Because they're in an article about "Mo" and they're listed as portrayals of Muhammad?
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Posts in this topic
Wikitaka Commons-hosted Muhammad Images Web Fred
For no reason, Xavexgoem [url=http://en.wikipedia... Tarc
For no reason, Xavexgoem protected the Muhammad R... Web Fred
[quote name='Wikitaka' post='303524' date='Sun 25... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303529' date='Sun 25th M... Web Fred
The RfC is going pretty much as I expected it to... GlassBeadGame
The RfC is going pretty much as I expected it t... Wikitaka What concerns me most is that so many users want W... Web Fred
What concerns me most is that so many users want ... Tarc
The 500,000 strong petition,with a "Wikimani... Somey [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='303536' date='Su... GlassBeadGame
The 500,000 strong petition,with a "Wikiman... Proabivouac
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th M... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th M... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th ... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303587' date='Sun 25th M... GlassBeadGame
and their request was denied.
Yes, by a couple... Selina User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 96 #After SOPA, Muha... Selina Caling people racist in a discussion without any k... Selina (Mod note: Moved the steadily rolling GBGvTarc tra... Mister Die To me the problems arise when people aren't pu... Tarc
To me the problems arise when people aren't p... HRIP7
To me the problems arise when people aren't p... Web Fred
To me the problems arise when people aren't ... HRIP7
[quote name='HRIP7' post='303656' date='Mon 26th ... Wikitaka Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikipe... Mister Die
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikip... Fusion
"Not censored" doesn't mean "a... Web Fred
"Not censored" doesn't mean ... Mister Die I don't know about you, but I'm interested... Fusion
So the concept that we, as human beings, generall... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='303805' date='Thu 29... Fusion
It doesn't really matter what some people... Web Fred
It doesn't really matter what some people... Web Fred
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikip... Wikitaka
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wiki... Tarc The "images are included to purposefully offe... Web Fred
The "images are included to purposefully off... Ottava I think this is similar to Wikipedia hosting a pic... Proabivouac
I used to be for including images until I found o... Web Fred
I used to be for including images until I found o... Fusion
By all accounts the real Jesus was black.
That i... Web Fred
By all accounts the real Jesus was black.
That ... Bottled_Spider I used to be for including images until I found ou... Detective
the image of him in Western society and culture s... jsalsman You mean you actually thought there could be conte... Bottled_Spider You mean you actually thought there could be conte... HRIP7
[quote name='Somey' post='304006' date='Fri 6th A... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303985' date='Thu 5th Ap... Somey Somey, you ignorant prat. I was targeted by the J... Tarc
Well, that's one way of defining "anti-M... Somey It is a shit argument borne of desperation.
So, yo... Emperor
So, the whole idea of iconoclasm (and the histori... Proabivouac
So, the whole idea of iconoclasm (and the histor... Somey Meaningful ideological reasons for the prohibition... Web Fred
Generally speaking, the early Muslims rejected m... jsalsman ... nobody ever really competed to see who could ... Tarc Anyway, long story short...
Rule 11, Somey. Rul... Somey The way you want this situation to resolve simply ... Tarc
You misunderstand - I don't [i]want this situ... Somey Don't word-parse m'boy, it isn't your ... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304127' date='Tue 10th A... Web Fred
People don't have a right to be free of offen... Somey Perhaps if that person had actually made a logical... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304145' date='Wed 11th A... Fusion
But no, you presume that people insist on keeping... Somey But no, you presume that people insist on keeping ... Bottled_Spider I'd ask "how can you not see this," ... Tarc
But no, you presume that people insist on keeping... Proabivouac
I believe that an encyclopedia is crippled if it ... HRIP7
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that as... Somey I believe that an encyclopedia is crippled if it d... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304174' date='Thu 12th A... Somey I have been making that argument for years, not my... Web Fred
I do agree that endlessly talking about this is ... powercorrupts
[quote name='Somey' post='304192' date='Fri 13th ... Web Fred
[quote name='Somey' post='304192' date='Fri 13th... powercorrupts
[quote name='powercorrupts' post='304209' date='S... Web Fred I've not crossed your path before though, at ... powercorrupts
I've not crossed your path before though, at... Bottled_Spider
And just what do you think is "going on... Zoloft
[quote name='Tarc' post='304174' date='Thu 12th ... Somey I just stuck it on ice. You want I should shove it... powercorrupts
[quote name='Tarc' post='304184' date='Fri 13th A... Fusion
I don't claim to be good at herding cats.
Th... Zoloft
I don't claim to be good at herding cats.
T... Web Fred
Perhaps if that person had actually made a logica... Fusion
Why is it automatically assumed that the minority... Web Fred
And it's not as if the Muslims are that much... Fusion
Practising Christians compared to practising Musl... Web Fred
Practising Christians compared to practising Mus... dtobias
That's some solid binary thinking there, Mr. ... Web Fred
[quote name='Somey' post='304150' date='Wed 11th ... Detective
I was targeted by the Jayjg Cabal and held up as ... HRIP7
So you used to be enlightened, but then became co... Mister Die Jesus is given the "WASP" treatment beca... Web Fred
Jesus is given the "WASP" treatment bec... Bottled_Spider Why don't they just dig up Muhammed's skul... Emperor Having images of some dude hanging all over every ... Mister Die Well the portrait for King Richard III (at least t... Bottled_Spider After giving this most difficult of subjects consi... Emperor "blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? Wh... Tarc
"blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? W... powercorrupts
"blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? ... Emperor
zoloft tar-pitted (or whatever their equivalent i... Michaeldsuarez
the other forum.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmw... Emperor I'm kind of offended by Piss Christ. How do I... Tarc All you have to do is admit that it's the Isla... HRIP7
Y'know, whether [i]they don't want to loo... Somey [quote name='Tarc' post='304199' date='Sat 14th Ap... HRIP7
[quote name='HRIP7' post='304200' date='Fri 13th ... Tarc One of the most sensible Wikipedians around, [wpus... jsalsman With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or questio... Tarc
With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or questi... Web Fred
[quote name='jsalsman' post='304237' date='Sun 15... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304199' date='Sat 14th A... HRIP7
[quote name='HRIP7' post='304200' date='Sat 14th ... Proabivouac
No one argued that there shouldn't be [i]any ... Tarc
The problem is with people who come to the articl... HRIP7
This ignores the reality that Muslims who are o... Tarc
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]O... The Joy
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]... Web Fred
That's a very close-minded view. We all make... The Joy
[quote name='The Joy' post='304490' date='Sun 22n... Sololol
[quote name='The Joy' post='304490' date='Sun 22... Tarc Are the images to actually educate or say "sc... nableezy All of the images in the article relate to the tex... Tarc
All of the images in the article relate to the te... nableezy Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included wi... Web Fred
Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included w... Tarc
Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included w... The Joy
[quote name='nableezy' post='304746' date='Wed 2n... nableezy
Can I have an English translation for this fuckw... Tarc Isn't that putting the cart before the horse, ... nableezy
[quote name='nableezy' post='304785' date='Sat 5t... Tarc
...
Seriously Nab, go be a nigger somewhere els... Somey (And as my racial makeup is best described as ... Web Fred
(And as my racial makeup is best described as ... Somey Moderators are over-rated anyway.
You'd rather... Web Fred
Moderators are over-rated anyway.
You'd rathe... Somey The sort of person I am is one who supports free s... Web Fred
The sort of person I am is one who supports free ... Web Fred
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6t... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304805' date='Mon 7th Ma... nableezy
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So I am, paraphrasing my man, the one hangin... Web Fred
Also, FYI, an Oreo is white on the inside.
And... Eppur si muove
Also, FYI, an Oreo is white on the inside.
An... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='304831' date='Wed 9t... Somey There's no such thing as "good suppressio... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='304855' date='Thu 10... Somey Errr, could you point out where I left a racist co... Web Fred
Errr, could you point out where I left a racist c... Emperor
And unlike the person(s) doing the bird-flipping,... Tarc And unlike the person(s) doing the bird-flipping, ... Eppur si muove
It depends on who's preventing the expressi... Tarc
when you can't actually respond to the points... Web Fred
I'm generally supportive of efforts to rid t... Somey Let me know when you actually get around to making... Tarc And of course, you're not even denying this.
... Retrospect
I am a nigg[b][i]a. Nableezy is acting like a ni... The Joy
So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? ... GlassBeadGame
I'm channeling GBG.
I no longer need to ... The Joy
I'm channeling GBG.
I no longer need to... Emperor
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='304609' date='T... dtobias
The range of opinion here spans from somewhat rac... Somey What the fuck does any opinion regarding religious... Fusion
Because Muslims are overwhelmingly Middle-Eastern... Tarc The range of opinion here spans from somewhat raci... dtobias
I haven't lost a thing, especially to an igno... Tarc
I haven't lost a thing, especially to an ign... Somey ...wringing their hands over something that has no... Web Fred
...wringing their hands over something that has n... Fusion
In your opinion, is this image racist?
If I may ... Web Fred
GBG, serious question. In your opinion, is this... Ottava
The range of opinion here spans from somewhat rac... Tarc
That's a very close-minded view. We all make... Somey The "because we can" argument has been t... Tarc
The "because we can" argument has been ... Proabivouac
Caterwauling from a distance when you refuse to p... Somey Caterwauling from a distance when you refuse to pa... Detective
The "because we can" argument has been ... Tarc
[quote name='Somey' post='304520' date='Mon 23rd ... HRIP7
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]... Zoloft My admittedly ignorant opinion-Wikipedia should al... powercorrupts
My admittedly ignorant opinion-Wikipedia should a... Web Fred
Oh and I no longer herd cats. I crate them. It... Text
==Islam in video games==
==Islam in anime==
==Is... The Joy Couldn't the images be "collapsible... powercorrupts
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... The Joy
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... Text
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... dtobias Amnesty International is criticizing Egypt for sen... dtobias I think all religion is supertitious nonsense, wit... Text
Glass probably doesn't get that most of this... Somey I think all religion is supertitious nonsense, wit... dtobias GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over an... Somey GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over an... Emperor
GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over a... GlassBeadGame Overall, your collective responses have been benea... GlassBeadGame Delete please, if anyone still can. I quoted mys... dtobias
Overall, your collective responses have been bene... Web Fred
Overall, your collective responses have been bene... dtobias You know, you sound just like homophobes do when t... The Joy I've only meet one Muslim and that was while I... Mister Die Does anyone have access to Britannica, World Book,... HRIP7
I've only meet one Muslim and that was while ... Web Fred Can anyone tell me WHY the Islamic belief structur... Emperor Ah the classic "you're dumber than cat po... Emperor I'm uncomfortable with anyone using that word,... dtobias Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressing ... Web Fred
Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressing... Eppur si muove
Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressin... GlassBeadGame So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? Go... RMHED
So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? G... Emperor WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted h... The Joy
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted ... Alison
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted ... Fusion
Selina needs to pull the plug. It's like watc... Web Fred
Selina needs to pull the plug. It's like wat... The Joy
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted... The Joy F67JhKT5bxU
YzRbC7lQ-EQ&feature=related EricBarbour Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. Th... Web Fred
Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. T... The Joy
Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. T... dtobias
Edit: Wha....? Wiki-pediocracy without the hyphe... Somey I'd argue the opposite, that Muslim civilizati... dtobias
I guess if I had to come up with an analogy, it w... The Joy I feel like people are tip-toeing around this, but... Emperor
It's a dark and morbid hypothetical, but one ... Tarc
I feel like people are tip-toeing around this, bu... Michaeldsuarez
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6t... Web Fred
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6... The Joy
[quote name='Tarc' post='304805' date='Mon 7th Ma... Emperor
Have you explained to Fae that, in March 2012, th... Web Fred
I'm pretty sure Selina doesn't think you... Retrospect
I'm pretty sure Selina doesn't think you... TungstenCarbide
... a Wild West environment (the British equivale... Tarc
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6... Fusion
Oh, has all of this taken place here? It seems t...
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