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Commons-hosted Muhammad Images |
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Wikitaka |
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For no reason, Xavexgoem protected the Muhammad RFC "to avoid SPIs", which is not a valid reason for semi-protection. What else does Xavexgoem have on his record?
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Tarc |
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Fat Cat
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 13th April 2012, 6:25pm) All you have to do is admit that it's the Islamic aspect of this issue that makes it impossible for WP to compromise, irrespective of your own feelings in the matter, and we'd be in complete agreement with no need for further jawing on it.
Y'know, whether they don't want to look at pictures of their prophet has never really been the issue. What puts the piss in my Cheerios is when they condemn the fact that the images are available period. That is what crosses into "tough shit" territory. QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Fri 13th April 2012, 7:40pm) Let's dub it "TOF".
I've been partial to the "Kohsocracy", since the splinter group thing was largely a product of his infantile ego. QUOTE(Emperor @ Fri 13th April 2012, 8:12pm) I'm kind of offended by Piss Christ. How do I get that taken off Wikipedia? Do you have any self-awareness of how much of a dumbass troll you are, or are we dealing with a bit of a Dunning–Kruger here, chief?
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HRIP7 |
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QUOTE(Tarc @ Sat 14th April 2012, 4:54am) Y'know, whether they don't want to look at pictures of their prophet has never really been the issue. What puts the piss in my Cheerios is when they condemn the fact that the images are available period. That is what crosses into "tough shit" territory.
You've never progressed beyond the reactionary position of wanting, nay, needing to be contrary.
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Somey |
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Can't actually moderate (or even post)
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QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Fri 13th April 2012, 11:43pm) QUOTE(Tarc @ Sat 14th April 2012, 4:54am) Y'know, whether they don't want to look at pictures of their prophet has never really been the issue. What puts the piss in my Cheerios is when they condemn the fact that the images are available period. That is what crosses into "tough shit" territory. You've never progressed beyond the reactionary position of wanting, nay, needing to be contrary. True, but in his defense (for once), he has a right to be angry about that - and frankly, it really is an extremely problematic demand, given the modern technological age we live in. I might even say that our problem here has been that we're actually talking about different issues altogether. He's saying the Western world should not be "held hostage" to old Muslim religious prohibitions, and he's absolutely correct to say that. But he either doesn't distinguish between Wikipedia and The Western World, which to me seems wrong almost to the point of irrationality, or (more likely) he believes that Wikipedia should be seen as a key battleground where culturally-progressive thinkers must "hold the line" against what he would probably characterize as backward, anti-progressive religious zealotry and extremism. And, presumably, he either rejects the idea that a prohibition on such imagery is actually more progressive in the larger sense than having Muslims not care how their foundational religious figures are depicted, or else (again, more likely) he rejects the notion that major religions should receive that kind of "special consideration" at all. And if it's the latter, you can hardly blame him; I'm sure there are lots of people who would love to have images removed from Wikipedia for all sorts of reasons, but can't, and are ultimately just forced to lump it, just like the Muslims are now. I guess we might never get Mr. Tarc to understand that Wikipedia is a terrible, terrible place for this "battle" to be fought - maybe the worst place on the internet - and that this is why many of us object to their carrying these images, far more than the mere fact that the images "exist." Having this conflict on Wikipedia solves nothing and can only exacerbate the problem and increase inter-cultural hostility, whereas if it occurred in a more controlled and civilized environment, ehhh, not so much. But I'll admit this is just speculation on my part... and either way, we'll probably never know now.
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HRIP7 |
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 14th April 2012, 6:35am) QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Fri 13th April 2012, 11:43pm) QUOTE(Tarc @ Sat 14th April 2012, 4:54am) Y'know, whether they don't want to look at pictures of their prophet has never really been the issue. What puts the piss in my Cheerios is when they condemn the fact that the images are available period. That is what crosses into "tough shit" territory. You've never progressed beyond the reactionary position of wanting, nay, needing to be contrary. True, but in his defense (for once), he has a right to be angry about that - and frankly, it really is an extremely problematic demand, given the modern technological age we live in. I might even say that our problem here has been that we're actually talking about different issues altogether. He's saying the Western world should not be "held hostage" to old Muslim religious prohibitions, and he's absolutely correct to say that. But he either doesn't distinguish between Wikipedia and The Western World, which to me seems wrong almost to the point of irrationality, or (more likely) he believes that Wikipedia should be seen as a key battleground where culturally-progressive thinkers must "hold the line" against what he would probably characterize as backward, anti-progressive religious zealotry and extremism. And, presumably, he either rejects the idea that a prohibition on such imagery is actually more progressive in the larger sense than having Muslims not care how their foundational religious figures are depicted, or else (again, more likely) he rejects the notion that major religions should receive that kind of "special consideration" at all. And if it's the latter, you can hardly blame him; I'm sure there are lots of people who would love to have images removed from Wikipedia for all sorts of reasons, but can't, and are ultimately just forced to lump it, just like the Muslims are now. I guess we might never get Mr. Tarc to understand that Wikipedia is a terrible, terrible place for this "battle" to be fought - maybe the worst place on the internet - and that this is why many of us object to their carrying these images, far more than the mere fact that the images "exist." Having this conflict on Wikipedia solves nothing and can only exacerbate the problem and increase inter-cultural hostility, whereas if it occurred in a more controlled and civilized environment, ehhh, not so much. But I'll admit this is just speculation on my part... and either way, we'll probably never know now. The problem is that Wikipedia is cutting off its nose to spite its face. The argument goes, [some] Muslims don't like it that these images exist so we'll show LOTS OF THEM. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/obliterate.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/noooo.gif) That's stupid and childish. One of the most sensible Wikipedians around, Ken Arromdee (T-C-L-K-R-D)
, likened the Muhammad images to depictions of Jesus as a woman in the RfC. It's not a bad comparison, because Muhammad images occupy a similar sort of niche: http://jesusnotalone.blogspot.co.uk/2009/1...articulate.htmlNow, I'm sure there are Christians who consider that image sacrilege, and who think it oughtn't to exist. But that's not a good reason to stick half a dozen such images in the article on Jesus, under a banner that reads "We shall not give in to religious sentiment."
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Tarc |
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Fat Cat
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QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 14th April 2012, 8:37pm) One of the most sensible Wikipedians around, Ken Arromdee (T-C-L-K-R-D)
, likened the Muhammad images to depictions of Jesus as a woman in the RfC. It's not a bad comparison, because Muhammad images occupy a similar sort of niche: http://jesusnotalone.blogspot.co.uk/2009/1...articulate.htmlNow, I'm sure there are Christians who consider that image sacrilege, and who think it oughtn't to exist. But that's not a good reason to stick half a dozen such images in the article on Jesus, under a banner that reads "We shall not give in to religious sentiment." I know Arromdee from the Usenet days, he's a fat, video-game neckbeard without a whit of real-world common sense. Editors would protest its inclusion because "Jesus as a woman" is such a fringe concept as to be essentially non-existent within Christianity. With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or question about what he looked like or what gender, the objections don't stem from that, they come from a simple prohibition against depictions in general. Muslims don't question the existence, they just don't want to see them.
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jsalsman |
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QUOTE(Tarc @ Sun 15th April 2012, 12:01am) With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or question about what he looked like I thought we had established dozens of posts ago that nobody has the slightest clue what Muhammad may have looked like, along with Jesus, Cleopatra, Richard III, and most everyone prior to the fourteenth century except for some Greeks; and, therefore, it's probably not the best idea to include such guesswork depictions in any of their articles. This post has been edited by jsalsman:
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Tarc |
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Fat Cat
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QUOTE(jsalsman @ Sun 15th April 2012, 2:30am) QUOTE(Tarc @ Sun 15th April 2012, 12:01am) With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or question about what he looked like I thought we had established dozens of posts ago that nobody has the slightest clue what Muhammad may have looked like, along with Jesus, Cleopatra, Richard III, and most everyone prior to the fourteenth century except for some Greeks; and, therefore, it's probably not the best idea to include such guesswork depictions in any of their articles. I was aiming that point in the opposite direction, chief; it'd be pretty retarded to rid the Cleopatra, Richard III, etc...articles of images on this rationale. Keep up.
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Web Fred |
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Pervert & Swinger
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QUOTE(Tarc @ Mon 16th April 2012, 2:03pm) QUOTE(jsalsman @ Sun 15th April 2012, 2:30am) QUOTE(Tarc @ Sun 15th April 2012, 12:01am) With Muhammad, there isn't a debate or question about what he looked like I thought we had established dozens of posts ago that nobody has the slightest clue what Muhammad may have looked like, along with Jesus, Cleopatra, Richard III, and most everyone prior to the fourteenth century except for some Greeks; and, therefore, it's probably not the best idea to include such guesswork depictions in any of their articles. I was aiming that point in the opposite direction, chief; it'd be pretty retarded to rid the Cleopatra, Richard III, etc...articles of images on this rationale. Keep up. Part of the fun of being an agnostic is not having to follow stupid rules thought up by power-hungry controllers of stupid religions, but now it seems that thanks to the politically-correct we still have to follow those rules regardless of our own theological sensibilities.* Yes I know that's a very, very long unpunctuated sentence, but I'm just back from walking a rather large mastiff puppy who has wiped me out. So I can't be arsed.
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Posts in this topic
Wikitaka Commons-hosted Muhammad Images Web Fred
For no reason, Xavexgoem [url=http://en.wikipedia... Tarc
For no reason, Xavexgoem protected the Muhammad R... Web Fred
[quote name='Wikitaka' post='303524' date='Sun 25... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303529' date='Sun 25th M... Web Fred
The RfC is going pretty much as I expected it to... GlassBeadGame
The RfC is going pretty much as I expected it t... Wikitaka What concerns me most is that so many users want W... Web Fred
What concerns me most is that so many users want ... Tarc
The 500,000 strong petition,with a "Wikimani... Somey [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='303536' date='Su... GlassBeadGame
The 500,000 strong petition,with a "Wikiman... Proabivouac
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th M... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th M... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='Tarc' post='303567' date='Sun 25th ... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303587' date='Sun 25th M... GlassBeadGame
and their request was denied.
Yes, by a couple... Selina User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 96 #After SOPA, Muha... Selina Caling people racist in a discussion without any k... Selina (Mod note: Moved the steadily rolling GBGvTarc tra... Mister Die To me the problems arise when people aren't pu... Tarc
To me the problems arise when people aren't p... HRIP7
To me the problems arise when people aren't p... Web Fred
To me the problems arise when people aren't ... HRIP7
[quote name='HRIP7' post='303656' date='Mon 26th ... Wikitaka Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikipe... Mister Die
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikip... Fusion
"Not censored" doesn't mean "a... Web Fred
"Not censored" doesn't mean ... Mister Die I don't know about you, but I'm interested... Fusion
So the concept that we, as human beings, generall... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='303805' date='Thu 29... Fusion
It doesn't really matter what some people... Web Fred
It doesn't really matter what some people... Web Fred
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wikip... Wikitaka
Why not use the Muhammad cartoon? Remember, Wiki... Tarc The "images are included to purposefully offe... Web Fred
The "images are included to purposefully off... Ottava I think this is similar to Wikipedia hosting a pic... jsalsman I used to be for including images until I found ou... Proabivouac
I used to be for including images until I found o... Web Fred
I used to be for including images until I found o... Fusion
By all accounts the real Jesus was black.
That i... Web Fred
By all accounts the real Jesus was black.
That ... Bottled_Spider I used to be for including images until I found ou... Detective
the image of him in Western society and culture s... jsalsman You mean you actually thought there could be conte... Bottled_Spider You mean you actually thought there could be conte... Tarc
I used to be for including images until I found o... Somey So you used to be enlightened, but then became cor... Web Fred If you're a legitimate "encyclopedia,... Somey If moslems want to dictate terms then they should ... Web Fred
Mind you, I'm not a Muslim, in fact I don... Mister Die And no, I'm not anti-moslem, at least no more ... Web Fred
And no, I'm not anti-moslem, at least no more... Mister Die The other thing I can't get my head around is ... Web Fred
The other thing I can't get my head around is... HRIP7
[quote name='Somey' post='304006' date='Fri 6th A... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='303985' date='Thu 5th Ap... Somey Somey, you ignorant prat. I was targeted by the J... Tarc
Well, that's one way of defining "anti-M... Somey It is a shit argument borne of desperation.
So, yo... Emperor
So, the whole idea of iconoclasm (and the histori... Proabivouac
So, the whole idea of iconoclasm (and the histor... Somey Meaningful ideological reasons for the prohibition... Web Fred
Generally speaking, the early Muslims rejected m... jsalsman ... nobody ever really competed to see who could ... Tarc Anyway, long story short...
Rule 11, Somey. Rul... Somey The way you want this situation to resolve simply ... Tarc
You misunderstand - I don't [i]want this situ... Somey Don't word-parse m'boy, it isn't your ... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304127' date='Tue 10th A... Web Fred
People don't have a right to be free of offen... Somey Perhaps if that person had actually made a logical... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304145' date='Wed 11th A... Fusion
But no, you presume that people insist on keeping... Somey But no, you presume that people insist on keeping ... Bottled_Spider I'd ask "how can you not see this," ... Tarc
But no, you presume that people insist on keeping... Proabivouac
I believe that an encyclopedia is crippled if it ... HRIP7
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that as... Somey I believe that an encyclopedia is crippled if it d... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304174' date='Thu 12th A... Somey I have been making that argument for years, not my... Web Fred
I do agree that endlessly talking about this is ... powercorrupts
[quote name='Somey' post='304192' date='Fri 13th ... Web Fred
[quote name='Somey' post='304192' date='Fri 13th... powercorrupts
[quote name='powercorrupts' post='304209' date='S... Web Fred I've not crossed your path before though, at ... powercorrupts
I've not crossed your path before though, at... Bottled_Spider
And just what do you think is "going on... Zoloft
[quote name='Tarc' post='304174' date='Thu 12th ... Somey I just stuck it on ice. You want I should shove it... powercorrupts
[quote name='Tarc' post='304184' date='Fri 13th A... Fusion
I don't claim to be good at herding cats.
Th... Zoloft
I don't claim to be good at herding cats.
T... Web Fred
Perhaps if that person had actually made a logica... Fusion
Why is it automatically assumed that the minority... Web Fred
And it's not as if the Muslims are that much... Fusion
Practising Christians compared to practising Musl... Web Fred
Practising Christians compared to practising Mus... dtobias
That's some solid binary thinking there, Mr. ... Web Fred
[quote name='Somey' post='304150' date='Wed 11th ... Detective
I was targeted by the Jayjg Cabal and held up as ... HRIP7
So you used to be enlightened, but then became co... Mister Die Jesus is given the "WASP" treatment beca... Web Fred
Jesus is given the "WASP" treatment bec... Bottled_Spider Why don't they just dig up Muhammed's skul... Emperor Having images of some dude hanging all over every ... Mister Die Well the portrait for King Richard III (at least t... Bottled_Spider After giving this most difficult of subjects consi... Emperor "blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? Wh... Tarc
"blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? W... powercorrupts
"blitzed our burgeoning discussion"? ... Emperor
zoloft tar-pitted (or whatever their equivalent i... Michaeldsuarez
the other forum.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmw... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304199' date='Sat 14th A... HRIP7
[quote name='HRIP7' post='304200' date='Sat 14th ... Proabivouac
No one argued that there shouldn't be [i]any ... Tarc
The problem is with people who come to the articl... HRIP7
This ignores the reality that Muslims who are o... Tarc
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]O... The Joy
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]... Web Fred
That's a very close-minded view. We all make... The Joy
[quote name='The Joy' post='304490' date='Sun 22n... Sololol
[quote name='The Joy' post='304490' date='Sun 22... Tarc Are the images to actually educate or say "sc... nableezy All of the images in the article relate to the tex... Tarc
All of the images in the article relate to the te... nableezy Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included wi... Web Fred
Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included w... Tarc
Um, no, it doesn't. The image was included w... The Joy
[quote name='nableezy' post='304746' date='Wed 2n... nableezy
Can I have an English translation for this fuckw... Tarc Isn't that putting the cart before the horse, ... nableezy
[quote name='nableezy' post='304785' date='Sat 5t... Tarc
...
Seriously Nab, go be a nigger somewhere els... Somey (And as my racial makeup is best described as ... Web Fred
(And as my racial makeup is best described as ... Somey Moderators are over-rated anyway.
You'd rather... Web Fred
Moderators are over-rated anyway.
You'd rathe... Somey The sort of person I am is one who supports free s... Web Fred
The sort of person I am is one who supports free ... Web Fred
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6t... Tarc
[quote name='Tarc' post='304805' date='Mon 7th Ma... nableezy
...
So I am, paraphrasing my man, the one hangin... Web Fred
Also, FYI, an Oreo is white on the inside.
And... Eppur si muove
Also, FYI, an Oreo is white on the inside.
An... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='304831' date='Wed 9t... Somey There's no such thing as "good suppressio... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='304855' date='Thu 10... Somey Errr, could you point out where I left a racist co... Web Fred
Errr, could you point out where I left a racist c... Emperor
And unlike the person(s) doing the bird-flipping,... Tarc And unlike the person(s) doing the bird-flipping, ... Eppur si muove
It depends on who's preventing the expressi... Tarc
when you can't actually respond to the points... Web Fred
I'm generally supportive of efforts to rid t... Somey Let me know when you actually get around to making... Tarc And of course, you're not even denying this.
... Retrospect
I am a nigg[b][i]a. Nableezy is acting like a ni... The Joy
So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? ... GlassBeadGame
I'm channeling GBG.
I no longer need to ... The Joy
I'm channeling GBG.
I no longer need to... Emperor
[quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='304609' date='T... dtobias
The range of opinion here spans from somewhat rac... Somey What the fuck does any opinion regarding religious... Fusion
Because Muslims are overwhelmingly Middle-Eastern... Tarc The range of opinion here spans from somewhat raci... dtobias
I haven't lost a thing, especially to an igno... Tarc
I haven't lost a thing, especially to an ign... Somey ...wringing their hands over something that has no... Web Fred
...wringing their hands over something that has n... Fusion
In your opinion, is this image racist?
If I may ... Web Fred
GBG, serious question. In your opinion, is this... Ottava
The range of opinion here spans from somewhat rac... Tarc
That's a very close-minded view. We all make... Somey The "because we can" argument has been t... Tarc
The "because we can" argument has been ... Proabivouac
Caterwauling from a distance when you refuse to p... Somey Caterwauling from a distance when you refuse to pa... Detective
The "because we can" argument has been ... Tarc
[quote name='Somey' post='304520' date='Mon 23rd ... HRIP7
[font=Britannic Bold][size=27][i][color=#CC0000]... Zoloft My admittedly ignorant opinion-Wikipedia should al... powercorrupts
My admittedly ignorant opinion-Wikipedia should a... Web Fred
Oh and I no longer herd cats. I crate them. It... Text
==Islam in video games==
==Islam in anime==
==Is... The Joy Couldn't the images be "collapsible... powercorrupts
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... The Joy
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... Text
Couldn't the images be "collapsible... dtobias Amnesty International is criticizing Egypt for sen... dtobias I think all religion is supertitious nonsense, wit... Text
Glass probably doesn't get that most of this... Somey I think all religion is supertitious nonsense, wit... dtobias GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over an... Somey GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over an... Emperor
GlassBeadGame has a one-note tune he plays over a... GlassBeadGame Overall, your collective responses have been benea... GlassBeadGame Delete please, if anyone still can. I quoted mys... dtobias
Overall, your collective responses have been bene... Web Fred
Overall, your collective responses have been bene... dtobias You know, you sound just like homophobes do when t... The Joy I've only meet one Muslim and that was while I... Mister Die Does anyone have access to Britannica, World Book,... HRIP7
I've only meet one Muslim and that was while ... Web Fred Can anyone tell me WHY the Islamic belief structur... Emperor Ah the classic "you're dumber than cat po... Emperor I'm uncomfortable with anyone using that word,... dtobias Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressing ... Web Fred
Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressing... Eppur si muove
Racism being bad doesn't mean that expressin... GlassBeadGame So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? Go... RMHED
So Selina, see why its time to pull the plug? G... Emperor WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted h... The Joy
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted ... Alison
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted ... Fusion
Selina needs to pull the plug. It's like watc... Web Fred
Selina needs to pull the plug. It's like wat... The Joy
WR shouldn't go down. Too much stuff posted... The Joy F67JhKT5bxU
YzRbC7lQ-EQ&feature=related EricBarbour Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. Th... Web Fred
Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. T... The Joy
Tarc, Somey, etc, you're wasting your time. T... dtobias
Edit: Wha....? Wiki-pediocracy without the hyphe... Somey I'd argue the opposite, that Muslim civilizati... dtobias
I guess if I had to come up with an analogy, it w... The Joy I feel like people are tip-toeing around this, but... Emperor
It's a dark and morbid hypothetical, but one ... Tarc
I feel like people are tip-toeing around this, bu... Michaeldsuarez
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6t... Web Fred
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6... The Joy
[quote name='Tarc' post='304805' date='Mon 7th Ma... Emperor
Have you explained to Fae that, in March 2012, th... Web Fred
I'm pretty sure Selina doesn't think you... Retrospect
I'm pretty sure Selina doesn't think you... TungstenCarbide
... a Wild West environment (the British equivale... Tarc
[quote name='nableezy' post='304795' date='Sun 6... Fusion
Oh, has all of this taken place here? It seems t...
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