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> Illustration of Muhammad, Censorship or respect for diversity?
SenseMaker
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From watching AN/I recently, probably many are aware of this petition which has now gardnered more than 18,000 signatures:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-o...-from-wikipedia

The issue is whether the painting of Muhammad should be included in Wikipedia's Muhammad's article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

It seems that there is significant unity of opinion among Muslims that the image should not be included because it is a taboo in Islam to show their prophet's face. Those arguing for include tend to be non-Muslims or, like Matt57, those who can be classified as anti-Muslims.

Some are claiming that this is an issue of censorship, but I can't believe it is that as the painting of Muhammad isn't a likeness but rather just non-realistic depiction. The argument around this image seems to be more about whether or not removing the image will set a precedent that will result in all depictions of Muhammad being removed from Wikipedia.

My opinion is that this particular image makes no significant contribution to the article, but that it does serve as a rallying point for a contrived conflict between anti-Muslim editors (who camouflage their incitement under the banner of "anti-censorship") and Muslim editors.

Although, I do think that the images of Muhammad should be kept in Wikipedia in general and especially with regards to the Danish cartoon controversy. To remove all images of Muhammad from Wikipedia is wrong but we should cover the topic with modicum of sensitivity. Thus I do strongly favor keeping this separate article and its images (and its name should be enough to warn any pious Muslim as to what he/she should expect):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

But keeping one solitary and non-depictive painting of Muhammad in the Muhammad article merely to aggrevate Muslims for the pleasure of anti-Muslim editors seems to be unnecessary, in fact, it seems to be purposely "trollish."

This post has been edited by SenseMaker:
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dtobias
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Why is it "socially responsible" to give in to pressure? Neutral Point of View requires that one not base editorial decisions on what any religion (majority or minority, persecuted or persecutor) thinks on an issue.
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GlassBeadGame
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Sat 29th December 2007, 4:47pm) *

Why is it "socially responsible" to give in to pressure? Neutral Point of View requires that one not base editorial decisions on what any religion (majority or minority, persecuted or persecutor) thinks on an issue.


Yes, look at the undo pressure these people are applying:

QUOTE


Dec 29, 2007, Anonymous , Pennsylvania
please,Islam means Peace.we want peace spreads everywhere. stop anything that can make any problems.

Dec 29, 2007, Jamil Al-Jabi , Canada
Hello, According to our beliefs as Muslims, it is totally unacceptable and insulting to produce or publish pictures/drawings of our prohpet Muhammad or any other prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all). so please remove this picture and we will be thankful for your understanding and cooperation

Dec 29, 2007, Luay Al Halaiqa , United Arab Emirates
Please respect our desire.

Dec 29, 2007, Eyad Musa , Saudi Arabia
please remove the picture of Prophet Moahhamed from your site.

Dec 29, 2007, Nehad El-Shammaa , Egypt
Please remove the picture of prophet Muhammad (prayers and peace of Allah be upon him)

--- excerpts from petitioners


Maybe WP should form another secret list to counter such abuse?
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Nathan
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 30th December 2007, 2:17am) *

Yes, look at the undo pressure these people are applying:

QUOTE

Dec 29, 2007, Jamil Al-Jabi , Canada
Hello, According to our beliefs as Muslims, it is totally unacceptable and insulting to produce or publish pictures/drawings of our prohpet Muhammad or any other prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all). so please remove this picture and we will be thankful for your understanding and cooperation
--- excerpts from petitioners


Maybe WP should form another secret list to counter such abuse?


OK, let me get this straight:

Muslims consider photographs of Muhammed (or any other prophet) to be "haram" (sinful), but there are pictures of Jesus all over the place (Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet) and they haven't complained about that.

That's hypocritical.
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Proabivouac
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In the interests of bringing this thread back on-topic, I'll not be responding to irrelevant posts, however disagreeable, and I urge others to do the same…okay, back to the depictions:

QUOTE(Nathan @ Sun 30th December 2007, 9:47pm) *

OK, let me get this straight:

Muslims consider photographs of Muhammed (or any other prophet) to be "haram" (sinful), but there are pictures of Jesus all over the place (Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet) and they haven't complained about that.

That's hypocritical.

Not if understood correctly (and, actually, it's even worse: there's a depiction of God in the article God, which is far more unambiguously forbidden than a depiction of any prophet.) I asked about this on several occasions. The issue boils down to perceived communal ownership: the Jesus article belongs to Christians, thus Christian practices are followed even though Muslims don't agree with them. God, too, belongs to Christians, because the article isn't "Allah" (though of course it is, in direct translation.) Muhammad, on the other hand, is the communal property of Muslims, thus Islamic practices should be followed on this article.

If you read Talk:Muhammad, the same people who are complaining about the images also say that Christians and Jews (atheists, by this millet-logic, are varieties of Christians and Jews) have no business writing articles about Muhammad at all. And look at the sources cited: where non-Muslims see secular academic scholars, Muslims often see a list of Christians and Jews:

QUOTE

"why i only allow you people to edit this article and then say its a article about Islam but in reality its just represent bulk non Islamic views of Muhammad(PBUH)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=180199734

"Well , if you want to write about Islam and Muslims, its not you who should do so , you have no right to claim things about Islam and Muslims while you are not even a Muslim…"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=180625361

"But most of the articles releated to Islam are derived from Western, Non-Muslim sources while Christian and Jewish articles are written with Christian and Jewish perspective."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=179224376

"…Muhammed article should be re-written according to muslim scholars… after all Muslims do not learn about Muhammad's life according to the Oxford dictionary, Watt and or Richard Bell…This article needs to be completely re-written according to Islamic history by Islamic scholars…"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=170957998


The reaction to the images doesn't draw its power only from religious taboo, but the perception of communal humiliation.Here, Muhammad is portrayed as a disgraced relative:

QUOTE

"Mr. Bush is very popular, if he says Merzbow's sister looks like this when naked, will you justfy that he is the president of America so his imaginative naked picture about your sister should be cited everywhere? How will you feel? Enjoy?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=107092921

"Since there are no prohibitions , then i can make a page about someones father , with a draw that puts him on a dog body ??"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=180659639


From this perspective, Muslims are obliged to defend their communal honor. The point of contention is real in itself, but schematically is as arbitrary as the proverbial chip on the shoulder.
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Posts in this topic
SenseMaker   Illustration of Muhammad  
Aloft   From watching AN/I recently, probably many are aw...  
Miltopia   Not really. To me it seems more informative, wher...  
SenseMaker   Not really. To me it seems more informative, wher...  
dtobias   Under NPOV, the views of a particular religious gr...  
GlassBeadGame   Under NPOV, the views of a particular religious g...  
Moulton   The inability to engage in voluntary restraint is ...  
One   Voluntarily refraining from publishing images off...  
SenseMaker   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='70304' date='Fr...  
One   [quote name='One' post='70318' date='Fri 28th Dec...  
Miltopia   You can't really "troll" an entire r...  
wikiwhistle   You can't really "troll" an entire ...  
SenseMaker   You can't really "troll" an entire...  
wikiwhistle   Instead of the term "trolling", it may...  
SenseMaker   Instead of the term "trolling", it may b...  
UseOnceAndDestroy   You can't really "troll" an entire...  
Derktar   [quote name='wikiwhistle' post='70312' date='Fri ...  
UseOnceAndDestroy   Ah UseOnceAndDestroy, you finally speak, welcome ...  
wikiwhistle   The argument around this image seems to be more a...  
Proabivouac   The underlying problem is that most Muslims aren...  
SenseMaker   The underlying problem is that most Muslims aren...  
LamontStormstar   There are some websites that go and try to display...  
GlassBeadGame   There are some websites that go and try to displa...  
LamontStormstar   There are some websites that go and try to displ...  
SenseMaker   [quote name='GlarseBeadGame' post='70342' date='Fr...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='GlarseBeadGame' post='70342' date='F...  
SenseMaker   [quote name='LamontStormstar' post='70345' date='F...  
Proabivouac   There are some websites that go and try to displ...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='70342' date='Sa...  
LamontStormstar   This is more insulting http://en.wikipedia.org/wi...  
Proabivouac   This is more insulting http://en.wikipedia.org/w...  
SenseMaker   [quote name='LamontStormstar' post='70351' date='S...  
LamontStormstar   [quote name='LamontStormstar' post='70351' date='...  
msharma   [quote name='LamontStormstar' post='70351' date='...  
LamontStormstar   Wikipedia also says Muhammed was polygamous like t...  
GlassBeadGame   Wikipedia also says Muhammed was polygamous like ...  
everyking   Just hide the images behind links. That's the ...  
Amarkov   I don't understand why this is a problem. The ...  
SenseMaker   I don't understand why this is a problem. The...  
Amarkov   I don't understand why this is a problem. Th...  
Miltopia   If depictions of Muhammad come down, Piss Christ h...  
Poetlister   Given that Moslems revere Jesus as a prophet, what...  
GlassBeadGame   Given that Moslems revere Jesus as a prophet, wha...  
LamontStormstar   Given that Moslems revere Jesus as a prophet, wha...  
Proabivouac   From watching AN/I recently, probably many are aw...  
SenseMaker   has been blocked indefinitely: http://en.wikipedi...  
jorge   I haven't followed Farazilu extensively, but ...  
Proabivouac   "Not certain myself how these tie together...  
guy   Bad move. Now he can tell the World that he was b...  
Moulton   I think the word you are looking for is sensibilit...  
guy   I think the word you are looking for is [i]sensib...  
jorge   Why is it "socially responsible" to giv...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Why is it "socially responsible" to giv...  
GlassBeadGame   For Wikipedia's sake, it was best to take t...  
Disillusioned Lackey   More importantly for the future of collaborative ...  
Proabivouac   They have made the values and prejudices of their...  
Disillusioned Lackey   They have made the values and prejudices of thei...  
SenseMaker   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='70536' date='Sat...  
SenseMaker   I don't have issue with freedom of expression....  
Yehudi   I find many pictures on WP offensive, the pornogra...  
cyofee   Everything about cheese is offensive to me. If Wik...  
dtobias   Everything about cheese is offensive to me. If Wi...  
cyofee   Everything about cheese is offensive to me. If W...  
dtobias   I don't care about your opinion. I'm just...  
thekohser   I don't care about your opinion. I'm jus...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I don't care about your opinion. I'm just ...  
Moulton   Then there are the martyrs who bear witness to the...  
The Joy   When I took a world religions class in college, I ...  
Moulton   The World Book Encyclopedia does not have a pictur...  
Moulton   I'll take "Or Else" for twenty Quatl...  
GlassBeadGame   The Petition now has 21,734 signatures.  
GlassBeadGame   The petition is currently at 22,750 signature. Th...  
jorge   Hmm I guess is we don't get a lot of read...  
GlassBeadGame   Hmm I guess is we don't get a lot of rea...  
Proabivouac   This Farazilu sounds a little fake to me - the mi...  
jorge   [quote name='jorge' post='71277' date='Tue 1st Ja...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='jorge' post='71277' date='Tue 1st J...  
Disillusioned Lackey   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='71322' date='Wed ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='71275' date='Tu...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I don't think that simple Wikipedians realiz...  
jorge   This [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I was saying the language that Farazilu used seem...  
jorge   Revealing your lack of focus on the topic.... th...  
Proabivouac   "The good will and patience demonstrated by ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Nota bene: I have taken a considerable number of p...  
Moulton   I can has arbitration?  
Moulton   Some movements require leadership -- at least at f...  
GlassBeadGame   The petition now has more than 25,000 signature (...  
Selina   Are we going to be getting a count every few thous...  
GlassBeadGame   Are we going to be getting a count every few thou...  
Selina   Are we going to be getting a count every few tho...  
Proabivouac   Selina, I don't have a problem with you includ...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='msharma' post='71735' date='Fri 4th ...  
guy   This reminds me of when the Church Times ran a pol...  
Proabivouac   Hey guys, look at this: http://fa.wikipedia.org/w...  
msharma   Hey guys, look at this: http://fa.wikipedia.org/...  
Selina   fine I removed it, I was just trying to help - the...  
Proabivouac   fine I removed it, I was just trying to help - th...  
Moulton   I think he is just saying that an editor's not...  
jorge   The reason a depiction is included in the Farsi wi...  
Yehudi   You have to appreciate that in Islam, followers of...  
GlassBeadGame   You have to appreciate that in Islam, followers o...  
guy   You have to appreciate that in Islam, followers ...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='72348' date='Mo...  
cyofee   Mainstream scholars are afraid of their life, an...  
GlassBeadGame   Mainstream scholars are afraid of their life, a...  
cyofee   If you want me to, I could write a bot that will g...  
GlassBeadGame   If you want me to, I could write a bot that will ...  
cyofee   Touché. You've caught me on this one, but...  
GlassBeadGame   Touché. You've caught me on this one, bu...  
Sxeptomaniac   Here's an issue, though: both the images in th...  
GlassBeadGame   Here's an issue, though: both the images in t...  
Amarkov   The thing is, their being offended isn't a big...  
GlassBeadGame   The thing is, their being offended isn't a bi...  
Amarkov   I agree with the general principle that there exis...  
ala101   That's coz there are Arabs who cannot express...  
Amarkov   That's coz there are Arabs who cannot expres...  
dtobias   Stop framing it as "one side wants to respec...  
Kato   [quote name='Amarkov' post='73340' date='Sat 12th...  
Proabivouac   That's coz there are Arabs who cannot expres...  
Moulton   The desire for honor, dignity, and respect is a co...  
Yehudi   Don't you understand the way Wikipedia works? ...  
Moulton   Wikipedia politics works just like meatspace polit...  
Yehudi   In real life, while there is an offence of conspir...  
Moulton   Indeed. The age of Crusades, Genocides, and Ethni...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Indeed. The age of Crusades, Genocides, and Ethn...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Genocide is in the past? Hmroo? [img]http://www....  
Disillusioned Lackey   What the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTU...  
Moulton   Meanwhile, today on NPR's This American Life, ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Meanwhile, today on NPR's This American Life,...  
Moulton   What?!? You mean I'm mistaken?!? Do y...  
Moulton   Are you perplexed?  
jorge   Are you perplexed? Anyone that thought that Moul...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Are you perplexed? Completely lost in the wilde...  
Moulton   Don't be silly.  
jorge   Don't be silly. OK, a little stubbing of toe...  
GlassBeadGame   I think the SCOTUS incident is on point and comple...  
Moulton   Let's not stub our silly toes tripping over th...  
Moulton   It's a great adventure, eh?  
GlassBeadGame   The petition now exceeds 40,000 signatures.  
Ben   The images say "This is what Muhammad actuall...  
Proabivouac   The way the images are included now the writers m...  
Ben   One is the earliest known image of the subject of ...  
Kato   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='74617' date='Mon ...  
Ben   I'm being serious here, Kato. Maybe you can jo...  
LamontStormstar   Yes. The earliest known photograph of Mohammad wa...  
Proabivouac   One is the earliest known image of the subject of...  
Ben   Are you asking a rhetorical question?  
msharma   [quote name='Ben' post='74614' date='Mon 21st Jan...  
Proabivouac   Utter nonsense. Cite each of those things. Mentio...  
msharma   Utter nonsense. Cite each of those things. Menti...  
Proabivouac   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='74807' date='Tue ...  
GlassBeadGame   The only honest argument is that forwarded by Gl...  
Disillusioned Lackey   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='75126' date='Thu ...  
Proabivouac   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='75126' date='Thu ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   What do you think of the French National Library...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='75247' date='Thu ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   44,083 are waiting to talk about Wikipedia, a la...  
Ben   Newsflash: It is obvious--to everyone except thos...  
Proabivouac   Newsflash: It is obvious--to everyone except tho...  
Ben   In your opinion, is that the only reason why non-...  
Proabivouac   [quote name='Proabivouac' post='75339' date='Thu ...  
Ben   You need me to spell out the fact that a museum p...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Newsflash: It is obvious--to everyone except tho...  
Ben   It is my opinion of what people in general would...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I'd agree it's hypocrisy, but I also did ...  
dogbiscuit   If the goal is to avoid controversy and hurt fee...  
Proabivouac   It seems the only reason they have contemplated t...  
dogbiscuit   It seems the only reason they have contemplated ...  
Proabivouac   I mean, what harm does it do if someone does not ...  
dogbiscuit   So in part, the question is, what is Wikipedia, a...  
Proabivouac   If it were a genuine scholarly work then I would ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Can we not distinguish between real harm (reputat...  
msharma   No, I asked you to back up what you've said o...  
Proabivouac   You're right, that is absurd. Also irreleva...  
msharma   You're right, that is absurd. Also irrelev...  
Proabivouac   No, its a single culture at a single moment in ti...  
Disillusioned Lackey   This is really tiresome. It is a debating society...  
msharma   No, it merely implies that this is how he was rep...  
Proabivouac   Listen, its clear to me and to absolutely everyon...  
msharma   Listen, its clear to me and to absolutely everyo...  
Proabivouac   Robert Spencer and his under-educated ilk do not...  
Disillusioned Lackey   The images say "This is what Muhammad actual...  
Proabivouac   Oh, wait, I get it, you're objecting to my cho...  
Moulton   I'd rather see the Supreme Court honor James G...  
GlassBeadGame   I don't think any 'cult of the amateur...  
Ben   "This is the earliest known image of Thor, th...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I don't think any 'cult of the amateur...  
Proabivouac   I don't think any 'cult of the amateur...  
Disillusioned Lackey   I don't think of it as a game. It's a ve...  
Moulton   WP doesn't not provide a functional process fo...  
GlassBeadGame   Neither did the Spanish Inquisition. Cue 15 yea...  
Moulton   The Klingon Ethic (Death Before Dishonor) is not e...  
LamontStormstar   The Klingon Ethic (Death Before Dishonor) is not ...  
Moulton   The first written appearance of the proverb ...  
Moulton   I prefer the Mel Brooks song and dance number cele...  
Cedric   I prefer the Mel Brooks song and dance number cel...  
Moulton   Wikipedia is not in business to not upset people. ...  
Amarkov   It's not that sinister, I don't think. Wik...  
Proabivouac   They certainly have a right to have the images up...  
Amarkov   When you're a small site, you can afford to do...  
Moulton   As far as theories of mind go, I imagine it's ...  
Kato   There is quite a thoughtful blog post about this h...  
GlassBeadGame   There is quite a thoughtful blog post about this ...  
Proabivouac   There is quite a thoughtful blog post about this ...  
Proabivouac   Why was Rodinson's book banned? Because, as a...  
Disillusioned Lackey   The key point.......A neutral treatment of Muhamm...  
Proabivouac   much less secular treatments of Muhammad and Isl...  
Disillusioned Lackey   [quote name='Disillusioned Lackey' post='77017' d...  
Proabivouac   But why not give the pictures a rest. The U.S. S...  
Disillusioned Lackey   But why not give the pictures a rest. The U.S. ...  
Proabivouac   There's a reason why the Islamic world isn...  
Moulton   Compare how Muslims feel about pictures of the Pro...  
Kato   Compare how Muslims feel about pictures of the Pr...  
GlassBeadGame   Compare how Muslims feel about pictures of the Pr...  
Proabivouac   In a politicized culture, those in power can outl...  
Moulton   Actually, it was both. Greg decided he didn't ...  
guy   Actually, it was both. Greg decided he didn't...  
Amarkov   Illustrations of Muhammad are not, at all, analago...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Illustrations of Muhammad are not, at all, analag...  
Amarkov   [quote name='Amarkov' post='77056' date='Sun 3rd ...  
Kato   You ignored my point. Christians don't get to...  
GlassBeadGame   Illustrations of Muhammad are not, at [i]all, ana...  
Proabivouac   Moulton was talking about how the depiction made ...  
Disillusioned Lackey   [quote name='GlassBeadGame' post='77108' date='Mo...  
Moulton   The feelings to compare are not those of the explo...  
Amarkov   Okay, Christians shouldn't get the power to ba...  
Kato   Okay, Christians [i]shouldn't get the power t...  
Sxeptomaniac   Okay, Christians [i]shouldn't get the power ...  
Kato   Wiki-apologist Ben Yates comments on this on his b...  
wikipediablog   Wiki-apologist Ben Yates comments on this on his ...  
Kato   Presumably I'm doing something right. Welcom...  
Moulton   Notice how so much of the liminal social drama rev...  
Moulton   Children don't learn from teachers they don...  
Disillusioned Lackey   Children don't learn from teachers they don...  
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