Durova_and_Jehochman Arb-com case is opened!, ...the supersekret mailing list is part of the case..... Options

Pop that popcorn and take your seats!


Private Musings brings up the not-so-secret "secret mailing list" here....

Wikidiots are already trying to put out the flames...

Statement by uninvolved party Stephan Schulz (talk)

I would suggest to withdraw this request for now, or alternatively for the ArbCom to reject it without prejudice. There is a very active and productive RfC pertinent to this topic, and an action by ArbCom would be premature at this time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by uninvolved party Alecmconroy

I concur-- insofar as this Arbcom applies to Durova, it's entirely unnecessary. She's an "Administrators open to recall" whose set her limit at 5 users. The count that have requested recall/desysop now stands at I believe 20+, so a new RFA is a certainty.

To file an Arbcom case now, demanding a forcible desysop, is to Assume Bad Faith, in essence "expecting her to reneg on her recall promise". There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this-- she'll agree to a new RFA, and in all likelyhood she'll pass it too. I'd suggest withdrawing the RFAr, or at least withdrawing her from it. --Alecmconroy (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Now, I don't believe that they're going to accept this for a minute....but it could get, um, interesting even if they don't.....

I think that Greg needs to add "FREE DUROVA!" items to his shop!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Statement by uninvolved party Alecmconroy
I concur-- insofar as this Arbcom applies to Durova, it's entirely unnecessary. She's an "Administrators open to recall" whose set her limit at 5 users. The count that have requested recall/desysop now stands at I believe 20+, so a new RFA is a certainty.

To file an Arbcom case now, demanding a forcible desysop, is to Assume Bad Faith, in essence "expecting her to reneg on her recall promise". There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this-- she'll agree to a new RFA, and in all likelyhood she'll pass it too. I'd suggest withdrawing the RFAr, or at least withdrawing her from it. --Alecmconroy (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The Durova RFA will be her last attempt at becoming an admin. again. Without consensus, she will be back to being a troll, like the rest of us.
There is no granting her a "grandfather clause." She is finished as a sleuth. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/huh.gif)

Userhu12 weighs in on the question :

Statement by uninvolved party Hu12

I suggest either a voluntary withdrawal, or that ArbCom consider closing this case without prejudice in light of remedies already in progress. This really should serve as a last step in resolution, and having this case concurrent with the active RFC may be unproductive and possibly unnecessary.--Hu12 (talk) 14:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Uninvolved???? REALLY???

I can't wait for Jzg's statement...

Oh, wait, there it is!....He must have been reading this :

Statement by JzG

The list of parties is rather too small. Durova made an error, for which she apologised, unblocked the editor, and said she would learn from it and not do it again. The reason the dispute has run this long is that some people seem unwilling to accept anything less than harsh punitive action. Guy (Help!) 14:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

...Well, why don't they add JzG as a party then?

Already two three accepts :

* Accept. James F. (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
* Accept. There are several issues here which need looking into. Paul August ☎ 14:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
* Accept Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 14:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So, maybe they will take this case?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Has anyone else noticed that Jehochman has been distancing himself from Durova since it happened [to the extent that he joined in the criticism of her]? He knows what's going to happen, and doesn't want to get dragged down with her. It's so amusing to watch her little meatpuppet act like he didn't completely support her when it happened (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

btw the title is a bit misleading; it has not been 'opened'

This post has been edited by KamrynMatika:

Yes, I have noticed that. He's really squirming in his evidence here, saying basically "I knew nothing".....Hopefully he doesn't speak German....

Quotable quotes from Jehochman :

Perhaps we could add "Wikipedia is not a game of Clue" to WP:NOT.

Why didn't you think of that before?

Flonight accepts too...That's four So, I guess the show will be beginning shortly?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Four accepts already? Wow, I didn't even think they'd accept it, let alone so rapidly.

Yeah, I think that they want this case to take place...although I'm not sure exactly why....

Our Patron Saint (Saint Tobias) makes a very eloquent statement :

Guy's line about people being "unwilling to accept anything less than harsh punitive action" is amusing given that he is one of the more outspoken members of a faction that is all for "harsh punitive action" when it's aimed at those they see as The Enemy. To them, the main goal of our community is no longer to build an encyclopedia; it's to fight an open-ended War on Trolls, which is Wikipedia's answer to the outside society's War on Terror. Like in that other war, civil liberties should be considered a quaint old-fashioned notion that should be sacrificed to security (as defined and perceived by the rulers). If a few innocent people get harmed in the process, that's an acceptable loss; we must keep vigorously rooting out the evil conspiracy undermining Wikipedia, no matter how much conspiring and undermining we need to do in order to achieve that. Let's destroy the village in order to save it! *Dan T.* (talk) 15:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Has anyone else noticed that Jehochman has been distancing himself from Durova since it happened [to the extent that he joined in the criticism of her]? He knows what's going to happen, and doesn't want to get dragged down with her. It's so amusing to watch her little meatpuppet act like he didn't completely support her when it happened (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

btw the title is a bit misleading; it has not been 'opened'

Meatpuppet Jehochman is not going to wiggle out of this. Dmcdevit cites Jehochman's block of DreamGuy based on month old diffs.

...we drive them away with spurious blocks based on stale diffs dredged up by an edit warring adversary, I see. This is a bit ludicrous.

El_C chimes in
I agree with Dmcdevit. Jehochman uncommunicable conduct here has been truly bizarre, likely abusive.

It's so funny to watch Jehochman try to escape the sinking ship. Also, where's Durova's statement? It seems to me that she's trying to pull a Jayjg here.

The Arbcom's processing this case at a record rate. Four people accepted it, and Kiril hasn't even voted yet. Maybe they realized that the mob with the torches is coming to get Durova and they'll only get lynched themselves if they try to defend her.

Man, this is really getting funny. A quotable quote from Doc's statement :

Duvora has been a fool - and is a patently incompetent "sleuth". But it doesn't need an arbcom case to establish that - it is an undisputed fact.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Kirill accepts....The case was filed about four hours ago. They really want this to go forward..

Now, the next question: is it to vindicate Durova or is it to get rid of Gianno?

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

He's a smart one. He gave the snowball the gentle push it needed (remember, he was the first guy to imply that Durova had broken protocol/wikietiquette/common sense).


edit:

She has spoken!

Interrupting a short wikibreak to make a statement here. It surprises me that this was initiated just a few hours after the RFC on my conduct got certified. I have always welcomed the Committee's scrutiny and continue to welcome it. DurovaCharge! 16:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

She's no stranger to the Ways of the Arbcom, she's used the get-out-of-jail-via-wikibreak card.

This post has been edited by cyofee:

Durova on Wikibreak. Holiday weekend, y'know.

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

oh, AS-IF. When did talking in the ANI thread disqualify anyone?

That's code for "the Arbcom loves Durova, and I don't want to be on her deathwish list if or when she isn't booted from here to eternity"

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

oh, AS-IF. When did talking in the ANI thread disqualify anyone?

That's code for "the Arbcom loves Durova, and I don't want to be on her deathwish list if or when she isn't booted from here to eternity"

Well, she's still got fans, obviously Somebody posts this very nice message supporting her Arb-com Campaign with a link to the "official shop" and East718 blocks him for a week!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Clearly this case will not be "adjudicated" (if one can use such a word to refer to the kangaroo court of Arbcom) until after the elections. My prediction is that at that time, after Durova has been safely beaten (or withdrawn), there will be wrist-slaps all around. The cabal always ends up supporting its own, no matter how much hue and cry there is at the beginning.

Well, she's still got fans, obviously Somebody posts this very nice message supporting her Arb-com Campaign with a link to the "official shop" and East718 blocks him for a week!

Oh! Obviously this is a wikipediareview sock!

Its his MO, she's seen it for 100 years!

Here he is again, trying to make a buck!


*More seriously, I think the woman is going to regret having been such a busybody, certainly in the case of Greg, whom she never had any reason to attack, other than to make more drama, as usual..

also, East718 just joined WR.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

also, East718 just joined WR.

Maybe we can interest him in a "Durova for Arb-com" button?

Maybe we can interest him in a "Durova for Arb-com" button?

No, I think he's more neutral. Blocking that entry to her talk page wasn't unexpected.

Also, he didn't indef it, as most would have.

A mug or doggie t-shirt might be in order.

If he's not bought them already.

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

Well, using the Poetlister theory, (Poetlister, RachelBrown, Taxwoman and Runcorn were all banned on proof of being the same person, by some youthful editor who commented they were all "living in England, in a similar way".

So for Durova and RdCitroulles to be the same person, you could say they were evidently the same person as they were "writing in French, or about French topics, in a very similar way"


Therefore (in another quote about some other indictment) "You appear similar to (X person) therefore in the eyes of Wikipedia, you are (X person)"

Both qualify, anyday, for an immediate indef ban, if not a secret evidence Arbcom case.

GO DUROVA. Ban your fan! Take no prisoners!

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

It isn't true. I was involved in his initial blocking; it was for vehemently attacking everyone who wanted any article deleted, along with copypasting an argument against deletion to every single open AfD. People who do that usually never come back into the Wikipedia fold, and they never go back into serious meta-content disputes. I don't know why he is this supportive of Durova, but he's almost certainly not telling the truth.

This post has been edited by Amarkov:

Comment from Kelly Martin

Durova's "wikisleuthing" is inherently contradictory to Wikipedia's core principles (especially the assumption of good faith) and the necessity to have a collegial environment in order to foster collaboration, and must cease immediately and permanently. This business of seeking "Wikipedia Review spies" behind every edit is contrary to the open environment that Wikipedia is supposedly founded upon, is toxic, and will slowly poison the project (if it has not already). If someone from Wikipedia Review wants to edit the encyclopedia productively, let them. If Greg Kohser wants to edit Wikipedia productively, let him, too -- even if he does get paid for it. These petty vendettas are dumb, and Durova has made a career of pursing them far beyond the point where they benefit Wikipedia in any recognizable manner. The solution to bad speech is more speech; the solution to a bad edit is to improve it into a good edit, not to ban, expose, and humiliate the editor. Kelly Martin 20:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think she has it exactly right.

Kelly Martin is pretty awesome when she's not in a pissy mood and trying to ban people for enjoying the site.

It's unfortunate that she's hated by the "inner crowd" and the "anti-'inner crowd' crowd". If more people listened to her there'd be less hysteria. Arbcom would benefit from heeding her words, but I doubt that FloNight will allow that to happen.

FloNight is the worst.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Right at the start of this debacle I suggested that this whole thing might have been an elaborate plot to provoke Giano into a reaction hoping that this would put people off voting for him. Durova may have made her evidence so patently stupid that she knew if would provoke a strong reaction against her, amounting to something of a lynchmob. People would then recoil from this and cast Giano et al as the aggressors and Durova as the wronged victim who was just trying to do what is "right" by Wikipedia. I am sure Mr. Wales and others close to him don't want Giano on the Arbcom.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Right at the start of this debacle I suggested that this whole thing might have been an elaborate plot to provoke Giano into a reaction hoping that this would put people off voting for him. Durova may have made her evidence so patently stupid that she knew if would provoke a strong reaction against her, amounting to something of a lynchmob. People would then recoil from this and cast Giano et al as the aggressors and Durova as the wronged victim who was just trying to do what is "right" by Wikipedia. I am sure Mr. Wales and others close to him don't want Giano on the Arbcom.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

But if a majority wanted Giano on the Arbcom and then Wales went against that that would be yet more fodder pointing to corruption and a power clique controllling Wikipedia which would be bad news for Mr Wales and the clique (if it exists).

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

I disagree. Newyorkbrad is one of the more decent admins, and there's more than one seat open. Giano was good friends with !!, I think.

Not to mention that she's outrageous, but you already know that.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

But if a majority wanted Giano on the Arbcom and then Wales went against that that would be yet more fodder pointing to corruption and a power clique controllling Wikipedia which would be bad news for Mr Wales and the clique (if it exists).

Ah, Jimbo can invoke "soopersekrit" evidence...

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/ValeriePlame_JoeWilson.jpg)

Political Scandal?

I don't get it. Someone was blocked because of secret magical evidence that nobody knows about, the evidence turns out to be faulty... and nobody cares? I mean, that's happened before, certainly, but never quite so blatantly...

Well, the one person who made a big issue of it in the New York Times got his wife outted as a spy, and...

OH. OOPS. You mean Durova and !! I thought you were talking about the war in Iraq, and Yellowcake in Niger, and WMD. Because if our country can ignore that, ignoring Durova's false accusations is fairly minor (however similar).

Our dynamic duo is the grassroots version of a political scandal. But the politics are no different.

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/DurovaPlame_JonathanWilson.jpg)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Krimpet has finally made the correct statement :

The first is Jehochman and Durova's potential conflict of interest with their SEO activity - it's disturbing to have people with stakes in search engine optimization self-proclaiming themselves as "sleuths" trying to hunt for others with conflict of interest. Kohs was banned for having such a conflict of interest - probably justifiably so - but why do we seem to tolerate Jehochman and Durova doing the same thing? We need a clear consensus, somehow, on how these conflicts of interest should be handled, and apply it equally.

Add this into this the idea that user Hu12, who is at least a Durova meatpuppet has a Chicago Stock Exchange connected COI issue
(not to mention Jimbo's own Chicago Stock exchange connections) and you get a huge COI mess here. This stinks....

The vote is 6/0/0/0. I think that this is going to be a definite "go"...

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

She has spoken!

Interrupting a short wikibreak to make a statement here. It surprises me that this was initiated just a few hours after the RFC on my conduct got certified. I have always welcomed the Committee's scrutiny and continue to welcome it. DurovaCharge! 16:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

She's no stranger to the Ways of the Arbcom, she's used the get-out-of-jail-via-wikibreak card.

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her? Take away her adminship, fine. But to have to go through a public arb com free-for-all; that's probably the worst punishment possible.

Jimbo did a horrible thing when he created Wikipedia's arbitration committee. And apparently it was intentional, because he hasn't even tried to get rid of it.

Jimbo did a horrible thing when he created Wikipedia's arbitration committee. And apparently it was intentional, because he hasn't even tried to get rid of it.

Jimbo doesn't care about such things whatsoever. He knows, he's aware and he doesn't care.

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her? Take away her adminship, fine. But to have to go through a public arb com free-for-all; that's probably the worst punishment possible.

No, to go through what Poetlister and others have gone through on Durova's say-so is worse. At least Durova has done something to deserve it.

No, to go through what Poetlister and others have gone through on Durova's say-so is worse. A

Exactly. Durova has a gang of people who will defend her until the end. And if the end happens, she'll depart Wikipedia, though that is not at all evident.

Right now she's set. Go on a Wikibreak and it will all blow over. Not a feather ruffled.

At least Durova has done something to deserve it.

Exactly. That's not how she sees it though. She feels harassed, victimized and threatened. As if this came from nowhere. As she would say, "that's her MO" (modus operandi).

I expect that Jimbo Wales has his ears ringing from Durova's telling him how he should be protecting her, etc. etc. What she doesn't understand is that she is NOT indispensible. She's gambled on that with this recreant, reckless behavior, and she may well lose.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

It's now been formally opened. Yay.

I think they all need a musical break.

Concerto?

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her?

The game of Pin the Stigma on the Donkey has been playing on Wikipedia for so long, who among us cannot feel a pang of hurt for the Donkey du Jour?

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her?

The game of Pin the Stigma on the Donkey has been playing on Wikipedia for so long, who among us cannot feel a pang of hurt for the Donkey du Jour?

That would be me.

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)