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_ Bureaucracy _ Statement from Jimbo re. Bauder/Forrester

Posted by: C H

I recall Jimbo saying that any arbcom election process that failed to elect James Forrester or Fred Bauder was broken. It was around the time of the January 2006 election, where James and Fred had seemingly failed in their reelection bids. Shortly thereafter, Jimbo expanded the arbcom by 3 members, adding Forrester, Bauder and JayJG. Can anyone help me find the quote? It was either on-wiki or on the mailing list.

Posted by: CrazyGameOfPoker

Taking a look:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-January/038017.html

It's at the end, and it seems like it was on IRC, not on wikien-l or hidden away in the archives.

Some other Jimbo stuff I found amusing as I dug around...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=34534993

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Brian0918/Complaints_from_Tony_Sidaway&diff=prev&oldid=32529790

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2006&diff=prev&oldid=86542006

Posted by: Rootology

So, Jimbo created new seats to ensure Fred, James, and Jayjg were kept on the Arbcom, gaming the process to favor his friends.

Question, then: who has actually WON a legitimate re-election to the AC, if ever?

Posted by: CrazyGameOfPoker

Let me take a look. It's worth noting that at least up until the 2006 elections (I'll need to double check 2007 again), that the results weren't "official", just a guideline for Jimmy to choose. In that sense it's impossible to actually win an election, as the actual decision was not the community's to make.


EDIT:

Lets see:

Of former arbitrators that were successfully elected again without expansion:

Raul did, actually, though the standards were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2004 (The highest % was Theresa Knott with 51%). (He had won a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_July_2004)

UC won election in 2007...however it's debatable to say he was re-elected, as he was hand-picked for the original ArbCom.

Really shocking, I never actually thought about that.

Posted by: CrazyGameOfPoker

Some more notes:

July 2004:

A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_July_2004 in order to fill 2 empty spots left by UninvitedCompany and Erik Moeller. Raul and Jwrosenzweig are chosen. On a side note, it's funny to see that there's no mention of Moeller's original terms on the history chart Arbcom provides.

December 2004:

7 seats were available. 3 of the arbitrators (JamesF, Raul, and Cunctuator) ran for re-election (of the other 4, 1 had his term expire, and 3 stepped down). Of the 3, only 1 passed re-election (Raul). James F and Cunctuator finished 11th and 16th in voting respectively.

July 2005:


http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-July/026675.html where Jimbo starts going against the community consensus in the previous elections.


Delirium resigned and was replaced with Fennec. This follows in line, as Fennec had finished 8th in the voting. (This is a bit against Jimbo's email, but it works)

Ambi/Rebecca resigns, and is replaced with JamesF. I'm not too sure why the next 2 slots were skipped, as both were active editors.

Grunt resigned and was replaced by Jayjg. This is the first of the appointments that would be best described as "Gerald Ford"-ish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=20049210#Arb_Com_appointments Jimbo on these appointments (for those unaware Lir is not Lar). Everyking chimes in, and well...it's about as blunt as I've ever seen Jimmy.


September 2005:

Maveric149 resigned and replaced with Kat Walsh.

Nohat was resigned and replaced with Kelly Martin.

I can't seem to track down the announcements in any of the usual places...doesn't seem to be anything on wikien-l, and I can't seem to find anything on Jimbo's talkpage about it.

Late 2005/Early 2006:

In addition to those 5, Sannsae and Kelly Martin resigned, however no replacements were made until the January 2006 elections.

January 2006:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_January_2006 The three July replacement terms were expired, as well as Kat Walsh's. The terms of Fred Bauder and David Gerard ended, and there were the 2 vacant spots by Kelly Martin and Sannsae. Of the 6 possible arbitrators seeking reappointment, 5 do, with the exception of David Gerard. (In addition Kelly Martin runs)

Of those 5, 4 are re-selected to be Arbitrators. Fennec is unsucessful in his bid, however the 3 of the other arbitrators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mathbot/ArbCom_Election_January_2006 (JamesF is 9th, Bauder is 12th, and Jayjg is 15th) but are appointed. The lone success is Kat Walsh who finished 2nd. (One also wonders how jpgordon feels, as he was the first skip for the new slots)

February 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mackensen&diff=40485477&oldid=40314200. His position is not filled, despite occuring almost right after he was elected.

December 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mindspillage&diff=prev&oldid=92922911 after being elected to the WMF Board of Trustees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2006 7 spots are for election. 4 involve sitting arbitrators (The Epopt, Jayjg, Theresa knott, and Sam Korn), 2 are for seats vacated by Kat Walsh and Mackensen. The last spot is for Filiocht who had been on indefinite leave for almost his entire term.

All of the sitting arbitrators do not seek re-election.

UninvitedCompany is elected and appointed, the first arbitrator emeritus to be reappointed by election.

February 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee&diff=prev&oldid=108129151. He is replaced by Mackensen. In the 2nd case of court packing, Essjay is http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-February/063809.html. He is sure to last until his term expires during the next election.

March 2007

Essjay resigns. His spot is not refilled. Ever.

December 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2007 5 spots were open all of them term expirations. There was no election to replace Essjay's spot. Of the 5 sitting arbitrators, 4 do not seek re-election(SimonP, Mackensen, Neutrality, and Fred Bauder). Of the 1 that does, Raul is not re-elected.

In addition a bit of trickery is played, as FloNight is shifted into Flcelloguy's old seat (who had been inactive for the majority of his term), and thebainer replaces her old slot.

Final tallies:

8 sitting arbitrators have run for re-appointment. Raul has done so twice.

Of the 8, 2 were never appointed again; 1 was re-appointed (and elected for the first time); 1 was re-elected and appointed; 1 was re-appointed by fiat; and the other 3 were chosen by fiat to fill new spots. In addition, Raul was also rejected during his 3rd election.

With the exception of the first half of 2005, James F has been on the Arbitration Committee since it's inception. It's also worth noting, that he has never won re-election, and has been appointed 3 times by Jimmy Wales by fiat.

Three arbitrators emeritus have attempted to seek re-appointment via election after their orignal terms ended. UninvitedCompany was the only successful one; twice Kelly Martin and Rebecca failed to be reappointed.

Posted by: maiawatatos

I think the main conclusion I end up drawing from this is that there are probably too many arbitrators, but the problem of inactivity precludes having a smaller arbcom.

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.

Posted by: Alex

QUOTE(CrazyGameOfPoker @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 7:35pm) *

Long history of arbcom............


That's very interesting reading. Thank you for that.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.

Let us hope it ends up in the same way.

Posted by: maiawatatos

Well, that was fairly implicit in what I was trying to say biggrin.gif

Posted by: Rootology

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

I think the main conclusion I end up drawing from this is that there are probably too many arbitrators, but the problem of inactivity precludes having a smaller arbcom.

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.


So honestly, what would happen if Jimmy did something Very Bad with or in regards to his en.wiki account, that led to someone processing a request against him? Would James F have to recuse, if he were still sitting? Would Jimmy be subject to sanction (not joking--I'm being serious)?

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:33pm) *

Well, that was fairly implicit in what I was trying to say biggrin.gif

Yeah, sorry. It's the child at the cocktail party syndrome. Strikes the best of us. biggrin.gif

Posted by: maiawatatos

QUOTE(Rootology @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:34pm) *

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

I think the main conclusion I end up drawing from this is that there are probably too many arbitrators, but the problem of inactivity precludes having a smaller arbcom.

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.


So honestly, what would happen if Jimmy did something Very Bad with or in regards to his en.wiki account, that led to someone processing a request against him? Would James F have to recuse, if he were still sitting? Would Jimmy be subject to sanction (not joking--I'm being serious)?


The words 'constitutional' and 'crisis' spring to mind. I believe he specifically said he would defer to arbcom some time ago, but re-iterated recently that he has the power to dissolve arbcom.

To continue the parallel, this is exactly what Charles I did repeatedly, and theoretically the monarch of the UK still could (and does at the request of the PM before every election). I can't imagine what would happen if she ever did it off her own bat, but I think it would be safe to say that there would be no more monarch within a fairly short period of time.

Posted by: Taxwoman

QUOTE(Milton" Roe @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:29pm) *

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.

Let us hope it ends up in the same way.

No, let's hope it doesn't. Charles I, a fairly harmless God-king, was replaced by Oliver Cromwell, a brutal dictator. Does anyone seriously want say Dmcdevit as dictator?


Posted by: maiawatatos

QUOTE(Taxwoman @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:52pm) *

QUOTE(Milton" Roe @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:29pm) *

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.

Let us hope it ends up in the same way.

Charles I, a fairly harmless God-king


*Cough* star chamber *cough*

Neither of them were great, but for different reasons.

Posted by: CrazyGameOfPoker

Actually, can someone check something for me?

I can't for the life of me find the official announcement where Jimbo instates Kelly Martin and Kat Walsh as arbitrators.

I know Raul adds them to the ArbCom page on October 11th, 2005, but I can't actually find anything from Jimbo regarding it in his contribution history, or more traditionally on wikien-l. I can't recall an ArbCom appointment without some sort of Jimbo announcement, so there's something I'm missing.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Taxwoman @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:52pm) *

QUOTE(Milton" Roe @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:29pm) *

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 12:15pm) *

Also the fairly circular process whereby JW appoints arbcom and arbcom theoretically can sanction him. It's almost like the curious relationship Charles I had with parliament.

Let us hope it ends up in the same way.

No, let's hope it doesn't. Charles I, a fairly harmless God-king, was replaced by Oliver Cromwell, a brutal dictator. Does anyone seriously want say Dmcdevit as dictator?

Yes, in government it's certainly true to the point of being a truism that the danger of most revolutions is not in their failure, but in their success, since the power-vacuum which results quite often leads to a sorting-out period ruled by a brutal dictator or two at worst, or a clueless buffoon or two, at best. We tend to forget this in the US, since our own revolution was one of the few where that didn't happen.

In the case of WP, all this might actually be good for WP, speeding up the decay in the mechanism, which is necessary to cause it to collapse to the point that something better arises. Always remembering that the information in the articles is safe, no matter what happens. And given that this being true, there's limited damage a Jimbo-but-worse could do. I mean, he's not going to go up and invade Ireland or something. It's just an encyclopedia, and the content of it, is backed up.



Posted by: Kelly Martin

QUOTE(CrazyGameOfPoker @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 6:32pm) *
I can't for the life of me find the official announcement where Jimbo instates Kelly Martin and Kat Walsh as arbitrators.
I checked through my email and found my letter to Jimbo on October 4th asking him to indicate whether or not he was going to appoint me, since he had told me over a week before he was going to and it hadn't happened yet.

I don't have a reply from Jimbo that I can find; he probably found me on IRC or something. The http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-October/030386.html was a week later on wikien-l. Took me a while to find this. It was "announced" (more or less) on the wiki by http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee&diff=next&oldid=25217221.

Posted by: Pumpkin Muffins

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 6:12pm) *

QUOTE(CrazyGameOfPoker @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 6:32pm) *
I can't for the life of me find the official announcement where Jimbo instates Kelly Martin and Kat Walsh as arbitrators.
I checked through my email and found my letter to Jimbo on October 4th asking him to indicate whether or not he was going to appoint me, since he had told me over a week before he was going to and it hadn't happened yet.

I don't have a reply from Jimbo that I can find; he probably found me on IRC or something. The http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-October/030386.html was a week later on wikien-l. Took me a while to find this. It was "announced" (more or less) on the wiki by http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee&diff=next&oldid=25217221.


from that same email, Jimbo says;
QUOTE
I'm also appointing JamesF as the Chief Research Officer. He's fantabulous of course.

I am speechless.

Posted by: CrazyGameOfPoker

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 9:12pm) *


I don't have a reply from Jimbo that I can find; he probably found me on IRC or something. The http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-October/030386.html was a week later on wikien-l. Took me a while to find this. It was "announced" (more or less) on the wiki by http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee&diff=next&oldid=25217221.



Thanks. I knew I had been missing something obvious. I must've overlooked it when I was looking at it earlier.

Posted by: Rootology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Royal_Oak_bootstrap_meet.jpg
Image

More photos on Arkaday's site:

http://arkady.fotopic.net/c777773.html

Posted by: Alison

QUOTE(Rootology @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 11:32pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Royal_Oak_bootstrap_meet.jpg
Image

More photos on Arkaday's site:


{snip}

lollers - go Apple laugh.gif

But ewww - what a manky looking pint of beer blink.gif Looks like really flat Guinness

Posted by: everyking

QUOTE(CrazyGameOfPoker @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 7:35pm) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=20049210#Arb_Com_appointments Jimbo on these appointments (for those unaware Lir is not Lar). Everyking chimes in, and well...it's about as blunt as I've ever seen Jimmy.


Almost brings a tear to my eye--he was so nice to me back then!

Posted by: One

QUOTE(CrazyGameOfPoker @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 6:35pm) *

Lir is not Lar
Understatement.
QUOTE
With the exception of the first half of 2005, James F has been on the Arbitration Committee since it's inception. It's also worth noting, that he has never won re-election, and has been appointed 3 times by Jimmy Wales by fiat.

I have to say that this is one of the most useful posts I've ever seen composed for this site. I'm bookmarking it. Thank you very much.

It speaks volumes about what Jimmy thinks is important for Wikipedia. His top Wikijudge is the tyrant of a supposedly supplementary IRC chat, with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=1000&contribs=user&target=Jdforrester&namespace=0, most of which are automated. Meanwhile, someone like Cla68 who does the mundane work of actually writing the damn encyclopedia should be "shot on sight" for resisting a now-proved sockpuppeteer who had influential friends.

Posted by: everyking

I think it would be a good idea to have a community push for all the ArbCom seats to go up for election in December, and throw out the staggered election system. The community seems to be at or approaching the level of maturity necessary to get behind an initiative like that, and annual re-election of all arbitrators would be a simple and effective way to improve the system.

Posted by: ThurstonHowell3rd

QUOTE(everyking @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 12:57am) *

I think it would be a good idea to have a community push for all the ArbCom seats to go up for election in December, and throw out the staggered election system. The community seems to be at or approaching the level of maturity necessary to get behind an initiative like that, and annual re-election of all arbitrators would be a simple and effective way to improve the system.

So what exactly would be the problem with the community rewriting the policies associated with Arbcom elections? Jimbo would be free to ignore these policies, but then it would be clear that he is acting against the will of the community.


Posted by: Taxwoman

QUOTE(maiawatatos @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:58pm) *

QUOTE(Taxwoman @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 8:52pm) *

Charles I, a fairly harmless God-king


*Cough* star chamber *cough*

Neither of them were great, but for different reasons.

Oh, I'm not saying Charles I was a saint despite Royalist attempts to depict him as a blameless martyr. But he didn't go round smashing up churches and banning Christmas and the rest of it.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

QUOTE(One @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 2:25am) *
It speaks volumes about what Jimmy thinks is important for Wikipedia. His top Wikijudge is the tyrant of a supposedly supplementary IRC chat, with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=1000&contribs=user&target=Jdforrester&namespace=0, most of which are automated.
James is also one of the strongest advocates for Jimbo's monarchial status, and views himself as having a vested right to rule as one of Jimbo's lord high commanders. As Jimbo's vassal, he views his duty as being toward Jimbo as his liege lord, rather than toward the community, as one might more properly expect. James holds the community in deep disdain and is frankly uninterested in what the community might care for.

I'm no advocate of giving the community everything they want, but at the same time James' attitude sometimes make Marie Antoinette seem like a social activist.

Posted by: Viridae

QUOTE(Rootology @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 4:32pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Royal_Oak_bootstrap_meet.jpg
Image

More photos on Arkaday's site:

http://arkady.fotopic.net/c777773.html


Just noticed the anti Scientology tshirt on the left.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

QUOTE(Viridae @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 6:08am) *
Just noticed the anti Scientology tshirt on the left.
Well, of course. That's a significant aspect of David Gerard's identity.

Posted by: sarcasticidealist

QUOTE(Rootology @ Tue 2nd September 2008, 1:34pm) *
Would Jimmy be subject to sanction (not joking--I'm being serious)?
It's entirely unclear, which is part of why I tried to create some sort of on-wiki policy about Jimmy's on-wiki authority (after first trying to get an answer from somebody at the Foundation about whether this authority was a Foundation matter or a community one). It wasn't an especially fruitful effort.

I'm a little slack on my British history, I'm afraid, which is hampering my enjoyment of this thread. But now I'm going to try real hard to see how the King-Byng crisis relates to Wikipedia.

Posted by: Cedric

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 6:10am) *

QUOTE(Viridae @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 6:08am) *
Just noticed the anti Scientology tshirt on the left.
Well, of course. That's a significant aspect of David Gerard's identity.

Hmmm. I noticed that WP does gets cited a lot over at http://www.xenu.net/. I seriously wonder if Andreas Heldal-Lund (who has his own http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Heldal-Lund, incidently) has any idea of all of the uncomfortable parallels between CO$ and WP. Not that wikipediots are quite as vicious as what scientos can be (yet).

Posted by: One

Oh they know about Wikipedia. They cite it because they wrote much of it.

I think that "Xenu," an article primarily written by anti-Scientologists with a COI, is possibly the most influential featured articles ever selected. The term got much more coverage after the article was written, and now average people know it and read about it on Wikipedia when they use Google. I recall some concerned members of other sects (Mormons, Moonies) opposed the nomination thinking that they might be the next target.. Nope. No largeish religious group is as reviled in the west.

NPOV is Popular POV on a good day, and so anti-Scientologists write lauded articles on Scientology.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

QUOTE(Cedric @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 2:01pm) *
Hmmm. I noticed that WP does gets cited a lot over at http://www.xenu.net/. I seriously wonder if Andreas Heldal-Lund (who has his own http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Heldal-Lund, incidently) has any idea of all of the uncomfortable parallels between CO$ and WP. Not that wikipediots are quite as vicious as what scientos can be (yet).
Since the same people who maintain Operation Clambake also wrote (and actively "own") virtually all of Wikipedia's content about Scientology, the frequent citation is not surprising. One of David Gerard's ongoing duties at Wikipedia is to ensure that anybody he identifies as a Scientologist is stalked and harassed off of the site with all deliberate haste.

It has long been observed that the anti-Scientologists are nearly as cultish as the Scientologists they oppose. This is probably, in part, because many of them are ex-Scientologists, and while they've been cured of Scientology specifically, they are not cured of their susceptibility to cultishness in general, and so readily succumb to the next cult they wander into, be it AntiScientologism, or Wikipedia.

Posted by: Rootology

The Xenu article's opening paragraph:

QUOTE
Xenu (also Xemu) (pronounced /ˈziːnuː/ or /ˈziːmuː/), according to Scientology founder (and speculative fiction writer) L. Ron Hubbard, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions[1] of his people to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs. Scientology holds that the essences of these many people remained, and that they form around people in modern times, causing them spiritual harm.[2][3] Members of the Church of Scientology widely deny or try to hide the Xenu story.


That's a pretty accurate and neutral summary of the religion. That literally IS the core of the religion, akin to the stories of Jesus in relative scale. Compare to the first paragraph of Jesus:

QUOTE
Jesus of Nazareth (7–2 BC/BCE—26–36 AD/CE),[2][3] also known as Jesus Christ, is the central figure of Christianity and is revered by most Christian churches as the Son of God and the incarnation of God. Islam considers Jesus a prophet, and several other religions also consider him an important figure.


Lose the last line about the COS trying to deny or hide the Xenu story (which they DO do) and it's apples and oranges. If it sounds POV and negative because it sounds like a bad episode of classic Star Trek, that's not anyone at Wikipedia's fault. Its "This is what this religious figure is," according to the internal Church canon. It's not Wikipedia's fault that Xenu is a step removed from a Gorn.

Image

Posted by: One

QUOTE(Rootology @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 8:37pm) *
That's a pretty accurate and neutral summary of the religion. That literally IS the core of the religion, akin to the stories of Jesus in relative scale. Compare to the first paragraph of Jesus:
...
Lose the last line about the COS trying to deny or hide the Xenu story (which they DO do) and it's apples and oranges. If it sounds POV and negative because it sounds like a bad episode of classic Star Trek, that's not anyone at Wikipedia's fault. Its "This is what this religious figure is," according to the internal Church canon. It's not Wikipedia's fault that Xenu is a step removed from a Gorn.

Jesus has fewer OR images generated on the computers of anti-Christians. It could, if it were a comparable article, feature a photoshopped Jesus walking on the water in the most ludicrous manner possible. The article for Jesus also doesn't quote Judas talking about how Jesus was on a steady diet of drugs and wine. For that matter, it isn't composed almost entirely from anti-Christian sources. But then, [[Jesus]] wasn't written by career anti-Christians.

Scientology is so hated that it all sounds perfectly neutral to many. In any other context such COI articles would look foolish. For example, I'm sure that Ralph Nader could write a facially neutral-sounding article on General Motors. He could probably create a very detailed article. Like anti-Scientologists, Nader has a deep memory of the organization and its flaws. But if we knew Nader was the author, I think we would look at it skeptically. I would, at least. I would be skeptical even though (as with Scientology) I would be much more sympathetic to the biased writer than the subject. I'm not sure why this doesn't skepticism apply to anti-Scientologists' work. Wikipedians just shrug or even blame the religion's weirdness for enabling such tawdry articles.

Don't get me wrong--they have exceptionally weird beliefs--but an impartial account by a comparative religion scholar would not resemble the sensationalistic articles on Wikipedia. But then, that's probably true for many subjects.

Milton Roe pointed out in another thread that there are articles for Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Mormonism, Islamophobia, and so forth, but no such article as Anti-Scientology.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

I have no love for Scientology, but I think Wikipedia's coverage of Scientology is embarrassing. There is no hope of altering this, though, because the Scientology topics are closely monitored by a tightly-knit group of editors, and they have David Gerard covering their backs. David routinely checkusers anyone editing a Scientology article who steps away from the anti-Scientology line, and typically accuses him or her of being a sockpuppet of one of the identified Scientology "shills" from alt.religion.scientology. It's a great example of Wikipedia's inability to actually achieve "neutrality" on a contentious topic because advocates for one side of the topic have successfully infiltrated Wikipedia's community structure. Other topics that have been compromised in this manner include animal "rights", anything related to evolution, anything related to astrology or other "paranormal" topics, or anything about GLBT issues.

Posted by: thebainer

QUOTE(Rootology @ Wed 3rd September 2008, 6:34am) *

So honestly, what would happen if Jimmy did something Very Bad with or in regards to his en.wiki account, that led to someone processing a request against him? Would James F have to recuse, if he were still sitting? Would Jimmy be subject to sanction (not joking--I'm being serious)?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerr_(Governor-General)