Posted by: Ottava

This has been a problem I've seen brought up for many years. One of the things about FA is that they give certain people a wonderful defense. Two, Bishonen and Giano, have been going off of theirs for a very long time. When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1 current FAR is a latest example. Last time, they tried to destroy Mattisse for pointing out that the Emperor lacks clothes. Now, they just say "everything is good".

Just look, every paragraph has major problems:

Original research: "with the baseless suggestion sometimes made that he had been studying architecture in France (stated as fact in the Dictionary of National Biography)"

Essay: "Downes' example of one sugar baker's house in Liverpool, estimated to bring in Â£40,000 a year in trade from Barbados, throws a new light on Vanbrugh's social background, one rather different from the picture of a backstreet Chester sweetshop as painted by Leigh Hunt in 1840 and reflected in many later accounts."

Pure high school paper bs: "Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain, by inns, street names, a university college (York) and schools named in his honour, but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the ever present influence of his architecture."

Horribly unencyclopedic exaggerations: "With the completion of Castle Howard English baroque came into fashion overnight."

Wonderfully vague: "Vanbrugh's reputation still suffers from accusations of extravagance, impracticability and a bombastic imposition of his own will on his clients."

Unfounded generalizations: "As was common in the 18th century, personal comfort was sacrificed to perspective. Windows were to adorn the facades, as well as light the interior."

Inability to cite direct quotes properly (along with horrible unencyclopedic POV): "Unsurprisingly under these circumstances, Vanbrugh's management of the Queen's Theatre in Haymarket showed "numerous signs of confusion, inefficiency, missed opportunities, and bad judgment" (Milhous)"

Most of the sources (when used, which is almost never) are old and outdated, obscure, or not really credible.

Hell, there are five major sources that should be included just to have real scholarship: 1. Gerald Berkowitz Sir John Vanbrugh and the End of Restoration Comedy (1981) 2. Susan Owen A companion to Restoration drama (2001) 3. Arthur Huseboe Sir John Vanbrugh (1976) 4. Deborah Fisk Cambridge Companion to English Restoration Theatre (2000) 5. Bernard Harris Sir John Vanbrugh (1967)

Does anyone have the balls to call them on it? No. Mattisse was partly destroyed by them over her mentioning the obvious. Even when Sandy Georgia was emailed about some of the majorly obvious OR and pure bs in the Legacy section, she didn't correct her claim asking for specifics. It is obvious that people want to have FA standards no longer apply to a select privileged few.

Posted by: Ottava

Another winning entry: "The Duchess blamed Vanbrugh entirely for the growing extravagance of the palace, and its general design: that her husband and government had approved them, she discounted. (In fairness to her, it must be mentioned that the Duke of Marlborough had contributed Â£60,000 to the initial cost, which, supplemented by Parliament, should have built a monumental house.)"

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

Posted by: Theanima

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 30th April 2010, 12:06pm)

Another winning entry: "The Duchess blamed Vanbrugh entirely for the growing extravagance of the palace, and its general design: that her husband and government had approved them, she discounted. (In fairness to her, it must be mentioned that the Duke of Marlborough had contributed Â£60,000 to the initial cost, which, supplemented by Parliament, should have built a monumental house.)"

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

LOL, yes. It sounds as if Winston Churchill had written it.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(Theanima @ Fri 30th April 2010, 8:35pm)

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

If "nobody notices or checks", them how do you account for the fact that John Vanbrugh is undergoing a review of its FA status?

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Malleus @ Fri 30th April 2010, 9:07pm)

QUOTE(Theanima @ Fri 30th April 2010, 8:35pm)

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

If "nobody notices or checks", them how do you account for the fact that John Vanbrugh is undergoing a review of its FA status?

Ed17 was either stupid or had balls. However, you can see him being crushed (but not as badly as Mattisse was, but Mattisse definitely responded in the wrong way and Ed17 isn't that stupid).

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 30th April 2010, 2:06pm)

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

This has been in the article since October 2004, added by Giano himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Vanbrugh&diff=next&oldid=6580459

They had different standards back then, which is to say they had practically no standards, whereas now they merely have poor standards. Giano did, at least, remove this paragraph from an earlier version:

QUOTE

The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

So hey, at least there's that, I guess!

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE

The joyous courage with which... he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Sigh.

My side hurts. : (

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 30th April 2010, 10:46pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 30th April 2010, 2:06pm)

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

This has been in the article since October 2004, added by Giano himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Vanbrugh&diff=next&oldid=6580459

They had different standards back then, which is to say they had practically no standards, whereas now they merely have poor standards. Giano did, at least, remove this paragraph from an earlier version:

QUOTE

The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

So hey, at least there's that, I guess!

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 6:24pm)

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

Giacomo! Cite some of those damn quotes already! You know damn well that I would have jumped into that FAR and added cites if given the chance. I'm tired of all those chicken shits not willing to put any pressure on you to get off your lazy butt and do it! DO IT! It would take all of thirty minutes!

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:27pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 6:24pm)

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

Giacomo! Cite some of those damn quotes already! You know damn well that I would have jumped into that FAR and added cites if given the chance. I'm tired of all those chicken shits not willing to put any pressure on you to get off your lazy butt and do it! DO IT! It would take all of thirty minutes!

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 6:34pm)

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

I didn't post the diff. I don't know who is responsible for the current language or the rest. I only know that your name came up at FAR and everyone ran like cowardly dogs.

And Giacomo, I have many of the reference books but, as you know, I can't fix things even though I want to.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:47pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 6:34pm)

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

I didn't post the diff. I don't know who is responsible for the current language or the rest. I only know that your name came up at FAR and everyone ran like cowardly dogs.

And Giacomo, I have many of the reference books but, as you know, I can't fix things even though I want to.

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:38pm)

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

I reread all of my statements and I don't see where I target any of your writing. What I do say is along this line:

"When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify."

It is your -page-, but you never kept a handle on it. Then, when people do want to correct it you get too defensive and the pages aren't fixed. There is no claim that each specific problematic passage is yours, nor do I really care. But you want to have it connected to you and it needs fixing.

But yeah, the above statement by you is exactly why this particular page will probably not get fixed. Go! Fix the page!

P.S. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=29408&view=findpost&p=233820 provided a diff where someone added something, but no one else attributed any particular line to anyone. Giano, you were quoting Somey above and attributing it to me.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 9:03pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:38pm)

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

I reread all of my statements and I don't see where I target any of your writing. What I do say is along this line:

"When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify."

It is your -page-, but you never kept a handle on it. Then, when people do want to correct it you get too defensive and the pages aren't fixed. There is no claim that each specific problematic passage is yours, nor do I really care. But you want to have it connected to you and it needs fixing.

But yeah, the above statement by you is exactly why this particular page will probably not get fixed. Go! Fix the page!

P.S. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=29408&view=findpost&p=233820 provided a diff where someone added something, but no one else attributed any particular line to anyone. Giano, you were quoting Somey above and attributing it to me.

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 8:19pm)

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

I'm not going to sock and I'm trying to get people to fix it.

Your name is attached to it. You should think about your reputation. Look at some of the statements in there. Some of them are patently ridiculous. You want that to be your legacy? You can do far better than that.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 9:33pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 8:19pm)

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

I'm not going to sock and I'm trying to get people to fix it.

Your name is attached to it. You should think about your reputation. Look at some of the statements in there. Some of them are patently ridiculous. You want that to be your legacy? You can do far better than that.

Ottava, there is little there to concern me; it seems to concern you more. I'm sure my reputation will survive an attack by you and a few gormless Wikipedians who probably know even less on the subject than you. You need to get over yourself and find a new project, you obviously take Wikipedia far too seriously. You played their game and you lost. Now, I am not going to stay here arguing with you.

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 8:48pm)

Ottava, there is little there to concern me; it seems to concern you more. I'm sure my reputation will survive an attack by you and a few gormless Wikipedians who probably know even less on the subject than you. You need to get over yourself and find a new project, you obviously take Wikipedia far too seriously. You played their game and you lost. Now, I am not going to stay here arguing with you.

Giacomo

Know less on the subject than me? That would be most people in the world. Giacomo, I know these writers. The last time one of the Restoration pages came up I listed many major, reliable sources that were ignored and that it didn't reflect the criticism. I already listed five important sources. At least two would be essential to having real coverage.

You can look at my pages. Compare Samuel Johnson to the page. There is a clear different between the two, and one is currently academic quality and the other is not.

Posted by: Eva Destruction

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:34pm)

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giano, that wasn't you; that disgraceful example of writing which has no place in a so-called "encyclopaedia" was brought to you by (drumroll) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Vanbrugh&action=historysubmit&diff=5035770&oldid=5019400.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 10:39pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 7:34pm)

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giano, that wasn't you; that disgraceful example of writing which has no place in a so-called "encyclopaedia" was brought to you by (drumroll) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Vanbrugh&action=historysubmit&diff=5035770&oldid=5019400.

Oh god, add that to my list of reasons why I despise Britannica.

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Giano @ Sun 2nd May 2010, 3:48pm)

Now, I am not going to stay here arguing with you.

That's probably for the best. After all, the post that started this argument stated (clearly?) that you at least managed to remove the aforementioned lugubriously overwritten material, not that you wrote it yourself... you've got to read these things more carefully. No wonder there's so much needless bickering on WP!

Posted by: EricBarbour

Uhhhhh. Head hurt.

Posted by: chrisoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#WP:POINT_violation_at_Featured_Article_page WP:POINT violation at Featured Article page

So childish.

"Personally, I'm minded to block Giano for the first edit summary, which is abusive and not calculated to help us keep editors to help build the project. However, not minded to deal with the shitstorm which would follow, which is the usual way Giano gets away with it."

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:04am)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#WP:POINT_violation_at_Featured_Article_page WP:POINT violation at Featured Article page

So childish.

"Personally, I'm minded to block Giano for the first edit summary, which is abusive and not calculated to help us keep editors to help build the project. However, not minded to deal with the shitstorm which would follow, which is the usual way Giano gets away with it."

He had his rollback rights removed for it, I believe. Or was that previous use?

By the way, Giano spent four days sending me emails claiming he was a better writer than me and I kept demanding him to prove it by fixing his page. He hasn't bothered to do so.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 1:34am)

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:04am)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#WP:POINT_violation_at_Featured_Article_page WP:POINT violation at Featured Article page

So childish.

"Personally, I'm minded to block Giano for the first edit summary, which is abusive and not calculated to help us keep editors to help build the project. However, not minded to deal with the shitstorm which would follow, which is the usual way Giano gets away with it."

He had his rollback rights removed for it, I believe. Or was that previous use?

By the way, Giano spent four days sending me emails claiming he was a better writer than me and I kept demanding him to prove it by fixing his page. He hasn't bothered to do so.

Rollback is a curious bauble. It's completely useless, but it gives administrators a sense of power and authority over lesser mortals ... maybe that's its real purpose?

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:38am)

Rollback is a curious bauble. It's completely useless, but it gives administrators a sense of power and authority over lesser mortals ... maybe that's its real purpose?

Not really. It just allows you to make faster reverts for vandalism. It is only supposed to be used in Recent Changes patrolling and other instances where you have to mass revert. People tend to instead have it because they want it as a bauble, but Giano clearly does not do vandalism patrolling so he should never had had it to begin with.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 2:07am)

QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:38am)

Rollback is a curious bauble. It's completely useless, but it gives administrators a sense of power and authority over lesser mortals ... maybe that's its real purpose?

Not really. It just allows you to make faster reverts for vandalism. It is only supposed to be used in Recent Changes patrolling and other instances where you have to mass revert. People tend to instead have it because they want it as a bauble, but Giano clearly does not do vandalism patrolling so he should never had had it to begin with.

No, just more server-side efficient reverts for vandalism. Twinkle is much more user-friendly, and it doesn't need a papal decree before you're allowed to use it.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 1:34am)

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:04am)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#WP:POINT_violation_at_Featured_Article_page WP:POINT violation at Featured Article page

So childish.

"Personally, I'm minded to block Giano for the first edit summary, which is abusive and not calculated to help us keep editors to help build the project. However, not minded to deal with the shitstorm which would follow, which is the usual way Giano gets away with it."

He had his rollback rights removed for it, I believe. Or was that previous use?

By the way, Giano spent four days sending me emails claiming he was a better writer than me and I kept demanding him to prove it by fixing his page. He hasn't bothered to do so.

Realy Ottava, is that true? As I recall it, it was numerous emails from you telling me that you were not a mere youth, but a grown man who was greatly admired by your professors and my prose, spelling and grammar was awful, which it probably is. That seems to be a current theme at the moment on Wikipedia - how will I survive such accusations?

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Thu 6th May 2010, 10:23pm)

Realy Ottava, is that true? As I recall it, it was numerous emails from you telling me that you were not a mere youth, but a grown man who was greatly admired by your professors and my prose, spelling and grammar was awful, which it probably is. That seems to be a current theme at the moment on Wikipedia - how will I survive such accusations?

Giacomo

If you want, I can post them so everyone can see your whining, crying, threatening, and dodging the fact that you still refuse to prove that you are worth anything.

Simply put, your writing is absolutely terrible and when this is pointed out you don't even bother to fix it. That is pathetic. There is no other word for it.

Fix your page already and stop your whining.

Posted by: radek

QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 5th May 2010, 8:07pm)

QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 6th May 2010, 12:38am)

Rollback is a curious bauble. It's completely useless, but it gives administrators a sense of power and authority over lesser mortals ... maybe that's its real purpose?

Not really. It just allows you to make faster reverts for vandalism. It is only supposed to be used in Recent Changes patrolling and other instances where you have to mass revert. People tend to instead have it because they want it as a bauble, but Giano clearly does not do vandalism patrolling so he should never had had it to begin with.

During Jimbo's last flagged revision poll there was some talk that the proper folks of Wikipedia who were to be trusted with editing were going to be only those with at least rollback rights. I scurried off and got the damned thing even though I totally despise it. It also puts me in constant danger of accidentally violating my topic ban just by looking at articles covered by the ban. I wish you could have rollback rights without having to have rollback button. Completely useless tool for completely useless editors.

BTW, I can think of at least one specific instance where an admin used the issue of rollback rights to brow beat and try and humiliate an editor he was in dispute with but for certain reasons, I'm not gonna go into it.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 7th May 2010, 5:20am)

QUOTE(Giano @ Thu 6th May 2010, 10:23pm)

Realy Ottava, is that true? As I recall it, it was numerous emails from you telling me that you were not a mere youth, but a grown man who was greatly admired by your professors and my prose, spelling and grammar was awful, which it probably is. That seems to be a current theme at the moment on Wikipedia - how will I survive such accusations?

Giacomo

If you want, I can post them so everyone can see your whining, crying, threatening, and dodging the fact that you still refuse to prove that you are worth anything.

Simply put, your writing is absolutely terrible and when this is pointed out you don't even bother to fix it. That is pathetic. There is no other word for it.

Fix your page already and stop your whining.

Oh Ottava, and I loved you so much, what happened, how can you say these cruel things to me - I'm distraught. You were my hero, but you are wasted here; you should be on the stage - as you said you were termed the "King of Content." Oh the ingrates, but at least you have the consolation of the admiration and respect of your numerous professors. For that, I am happy - now we must watch wikipedia crumble without you - Oh the horror!

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Fri 7th May 2010, 8:28pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 7th May 2010, 5:20am)

QUOTE(Giano @ Thu 6th May 2010, 10:23pm)

Realy Ottava, is that true? As I recall it, it was numerous emails from you telling me that you were not a mere youth, but a grown man who was greatly admired by your professors and my prose, spelling and grammar was awful, which it probably is. That seems to be a current theme at the moment on Wikipedia - how will I survive such accusations?

Giacomo

If you want, I can post them so everyone can see your whining, crying, threatening, and dodging the fact that you still refuse to prove that you are worth anything.

Simply put, your writing is absolutely terrible and when this is pointed out you don't even bother to fix it. That is pathetic. There is no other word for it.

Fix your page already and stop your whining.

Oh Ottava, and I loved you so much, what happened, how can you say these cruel things to me - I'm distraught. You were my hero, but you are wasted here; you should be on the stage - as you said you were termed the "King of Content." Oh the ingrates, but at least you have the consolation of the admiration and respect of your numerous professors. For that, I am happy - now we must watch wikipedia crumble without you - Oh the horror!

Giacomo

Wikipedia isn't without me, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard published after my demise.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 7th May 2010, 9:46pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Fri 7th May 2010, 8:28pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 7th May 2010, 5:20am)

QUOTE(Giano @ Thu 6th May 2010, 10:23pm)

Realy Ottava, is that true? As I recall it, it was numerous emails from you telling me that you were not a mere youth, but a grown man who was greatly admired by your professors and my prose, spelling and grammar was awful, which it probably is. That seems to be a current theme at the moment on Wikipedia - how will I survive such accusations?

Giacomo

If you want, I can post them so everyone can see your whining, crying, threatening, and dodging the fact that you still refuse to prove that you are worth anything.

Simply put, your writing is absolutely terrible and when this is pointed out you don't even bother to fix it. That is pathetic. There is no other word for it.

Fix your page already and stop your whining.

Oh Ottava, and I loved you so much, what happened, how can you say these cruel things to me - I'm distraught. You were my hero, but you are wasted here; you should be on the stage - as you said you were termed the "King of Content." Oh the ingrates, but at least you have the consolation of the admiration and respect of your numerous professors. For that, I am happy - now we must watch wikipedia crumble without you - Oh the horror!

Giacomo

Wikipedia isn't without me, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard published after my demise.

Yep, most fitting - written in a graveyard. One of Wikipedia's living dead; people like you keep castles in Transylvania solvent.

Giacomo

Posted by: Somey

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 7th May 2010, 3:01pm)

That's Ottava there on the left, there, swinging the bit of lumber at an Undead Poets Society meeting. I think he gets shot in the forehead, right at the end of the film. "That's another one for the fire." Bummer.

"Brains!!"

"Why do you want brains?"

"It helps the pain!"

"What pain?"

"The pain of being .... banned..."

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 7th May 2010, 10:20pm)

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 7th May 2010, 3:01pm)

That's Ottava there on the left, there, swinging the bit of lumber at an Undead Poets Society meeting. I think he gets shot in the forehead, right at the end of the film. "That's another one for the fire." Bummer.

"Brains!!"

"Why do you want brains?"

"It helps the pain!"

"What pain?"

"The pain of being .... banned..."

O.M.F.G. That is hilarious.

Posted by: Ottava

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369181983&oldid=369181796 would be able to recognize that a page with such ridiculous original research, utterly bs claims as pointed out in the early posts here, and other such problems is shameful and shouldn't be kept as an FA even if there are worse problems after the FAR.

How can she be trusted to even know what a FA is when there are absolutely bogus statements like this in it: "with the baseless suggestion sometimes made that he had been studying architecture in France (stated as fact in the Dictionary of National Biography)."

Basically, what Giano or Bishonen did was say that the Dictionary of National Biography was wrong because they -wish- it was. Did they publish on the matter? No. Do they have any legitimate expertise? No. They aren't like William M Connolly who could make the (ridiculous) statement "I saw it for myself so it must be true!"

Sandy knows that those problems exist.

She knows that this ridiculous statement was in the original and is still there: "but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the influence of his architecture".

Hell, the page should be delisted solely on that statement. It is a perfect representative of what not to do when trying to write something encyclopedic.

Shameful.

Posted by: Moulton

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:10am)

Shameful.

There is scant evidence to support the notion that Wikipedians are shamable.

Posted by: chrisoff

SandyGeorgia's a Bish/Giano supporter. Hang the vaunted FAR standards! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369180117&oldid=369180011

Bish's been unhealthy since April or so. And it's her article, so no choice but to close the FAR as a "Keep", is there?

Posted by: Peter Damian

"and jarred conservative opinions on the subject." Right there in the introduction: 'to jar' used in the sense of disagree or clash, is not a transitive verb.

Some of Ottava's criticisms are reasonable. (It pains me to say that).

Posted by: Ottava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vanbrugh#cite_note-53 , that lovely bit of OR at the end ("but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the influence of his architecture") is so unbelievably made up that they had to fake the reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=iK7ld8-oYswC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Modern+Architectural+Theory&hl=en&ei=1o0eTNH-BcaAlAe1w7S7Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vanbrugh&f=false with a source not even really talking about Vanbrugh and actually provides people who did influence the architecture that wasn't him.

His importance was almost nil when it came to buildings. Disgusting.

Oh, and Sandy, a non FAR delegate is trying to help her buddy Bishonen out by claiming it is now closed. Not only are they defending a page with shitty writing, blatantly OR, and blatantly wrong claims, but they are trying to get around the process to do so.

Where are the blocks?

Posted by: Moulton

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 6:02pm)

Where are the blocks?

Had you been there to indict them, you'd have been blocked.

The reason there are no blocks is because you are not there to blow the whistle.

Posted by: chrisoff

SandyGeorgia has been put in her place. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369249286&oldid=369248525 (She didn't like it that she can't close FARs, poor soul.)

Repairing the damage http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Blurpeace&diff=prev&oldid=369251381 She realized she overstepped as one of the "overheated editors", the primary one, IMO.

Posted by: HRIP7

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:02pm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vanbrugh#cite_note-53 , that lovely bit of OR at the end ("but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the influence of his architecture") is so unbelievably made up that they had to fake the reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=iK7ld8-oYswC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Modern+Architectural+Theory&hl=en&ei=1o0eTNH-BcaAlAe1w7S7Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vanbrugh&f=false with a source not even really talking about Vanbrugh and actually provides people who did influence the architecture that wasn't him.

His importance was almost nil when it came to buildings. Disgusting.

I think that's just good writing, of the sort most people in WP don't attempt, because they don't know their subjects well enough to write anything but close paraphrases of their sources.

Sources attesting to Vanbrugh's influence as an architect are easy to find: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OfWdt-CzuqsC&pg=PA246&dq=vanbrugh+%22influential+architect%22&hl=en&ei=1qMeTNaZM9ON4gbC2sH0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanbrugh%20%22influential%20architect%22&f=false for example, or http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=%22Sir+John+Vanbrugh%22,+architect+of+Castle+Howard+and+Blenheim+Palace,+and+Nicholas+Hawksmoor+%22were+the+most+influential+architects.%22&btnG=Search&cts=1277077361786&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=, or http://www.parksandgardens.ac.uk/component/option,com_parksandgardens/task,person/id,1414/Itemid,292/. Care to reconsider?

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 7:34pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:02pm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vanbrugh#cite_note-53 , that lovely bit of OR at the end ("but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the influence of his architecture") is so unbelievably made up that they had to fake the reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=iK7ld8-oYswC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Modern+Architectural+Theory&hl=en&ei=1o0eTNH-BcaAlAe1w7S7Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vanbrugh&f=false with a source not even really talking about Vanbrugh and actually provides people who did influence the architecture that wasn't him.

His importance was almost nil when it came to buildings. Disgusting.

I think that's just good writing, of the sort most people in WP don't attempt, because they don't know their subjects well enough to write anything but close paraphrases of their sources.

Sources attesting to Vanbrugh's influence as an architect are easy to find: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OfWdt-CzuqsC&pg=PA246&dq=vanbrugh+%22influential+architect%22&hl=en&ei=1qMeTNaZM9ON4gbC2sH0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanbrugh%20%22influential%20architect%22&f=false for example, or http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=%22Sir+John+Vanbrugh%22,+architect+of+Castle+Howard+and+Blenheim+Palace,+and+Nicholas+Hawksmoor+%22were+the+most+influential+architects.%22&btnG=Search&cts=1277077361786&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=, or http://www.parksandgardens.ac.uk/component/option,com_parksandgardens/task,person/id,1414/Itemid,292/. Care to reconsider?

A real encyclopedia doesn't use the word "one" nor would it say "one only has to wander". That is something found in elementary school book reports or bad debate speeches.

On Vanbrugh's architecture reputation (from the source I posted above):

p. 61 "Perhaps its most interesting aspect is Price's effort to resurrect the reputation of John Vanbrugh"

p. 65 "the resurrection of this formerly disdained baroque architect is now complete" and "Vanbrugh's apotheosis is symbolic of Soane's eclectic viewpoint."

These were fringe views put forth by nut jobs trying to get attention. That doesn't mean he had actual influence. It means that he had admirers like Giano who wanted to fudge details later on. He was mostly despised for 250 years. You don't see that in the article! And the books you cite are very crappy sources.

As a note, I can't edit my previous post to say that Sandy was indeed not closing the FAR. That was a mistake propagated by Bishonen, so I am sorry for attacking her over it.

Posted by: HRIP7

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 1:07am)

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 7:34pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:02pm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vanbrugh#cite_note-53 , that lovely bit of OR at the end ("but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the influence of his architecture") is so unbelievably made up that they had to fake the reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=iK7ld8-oYswC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Modern+Architectural+Theory&hl=en&ei=1o0eTNH-BcaAlAe1w7S7Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vanbrugh&f=false with a source not even really talking about Vanbrugh and actually provides people who did influence the architecture that wasn't him.

His importance was almost nil when it came to buildings. Disgusting.

I think that's just good writing, of the sort most people in WP don't attempt, because they don't know their subjects well enough to write anything but close paraphrases of their sources.

Sources attesting to Vanbrugh's influence as an architect are easy to find: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OfWdt-CzuqsC&pg=PA246&dq=vanbrugh+%22influential+architect%22&hl=en&ei=1qMeTNaZM9ON4gbC2sH0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanbrugh%20%22influential%20architect%22&f=false for example, or http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=%22Sir+John+Vanbrugh%22,+architect+of+Castle+Howard+and+Blenheim+Palace,+and+Nicholas+Hawksmoor+%22were+the+most+influential+architects.%22&btnG=Search&cts=1277077361786&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=, or http://www.parksandgardens.ac.uk/component/option,com_parksandgardens/task,person/id,1414/Itemid,292/. Care to reconsider?

A real encyclopedia doesn't use the word "one" nor would it say "one only has to wander". That is something found in elementary school book reports or bad debate speeches.

On Vanbrugh's architecture reputation (from the source I posted above):

p. 61 "Perhaps its most interesting aspect is Price's effort to resurrect the reputation of John Vanbrugh"

p. 65 "the resurrection of this formerly disdained baroque architect is now complete" and "Vanbrugh's apotheosis is symbolic of Soane's eclectic viewpoint."

These were fringe views put forth by nut jobs trying to get attention. That doesn't mean he had actual influence. It means that he had admirers like Giano who wanted to fudge details later on. He was mostly despised for 250 years. You don't see that in the article! And the books you cite are very crappy sources.

As a note, I can't edit my previous post to say that Sandy was indeed not closing the FAR. That was a mistake propagated by Bishonen, so I am sorry for attacking her over it.

The first source I cited is Cambridge University Press, not generally regarded as crappy; the second is Simon and Schuster (likewise). The third is a partnership between the Association of Gardens Trusts and the University of York.

What it does say on the cited page of the Mallgrave book is that Vanbrugh and Hawksmoor, "collectively and apart", "define the first great line of British architectural development in the eighteenth century, an approach clearly eclectic in its methods."

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 8:14pm)

The first source I cited is Cambridge University Press, not generally regarded as crappy; the second is Simon and Schuster (likewise). The third is a partnership between the Association of Gardens Trusts and the University of York.

What it does say on the cited page of the Mallgrave book is that Vanbrugh and Hawksmoor, "collectively and apart", "define the first great line of British architectural development in the eighteenth century, an approach clearly eclectic in its methods."

You apparently don't understand sources.

Your "Cambridge" source was a generic summary by someone without an expertise in the topic at hand with an off hand attribution. As you can see from my sources, the claim about Vanbrugh being a great architect defies hundreds of years of opinion and is a fringe notion established recently by a handful of people.

The other source was just as unreliable. Your ignorance of sourcing is pitiful, almost as bad as the essayish language within the article that is far from being encyclopedic.

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 20th June 2010, 10:28pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 6:02pm)

Where are the blocks?

Had you been there to indict them, you'd have been blocked.

The reason there are no blocks is because you are not there to blow the whistle.

Wonderful life, ain't it?

Posted by: HRIP7

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 3:18am)

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 8:14pm)

The first source I cited is Cambridge University Press, not generally regarded as crappy; the second is Simon and Schuster (likewise). The third is a partnership between the Association of Gardens Trusts and the University of York.

What it does say on the cited page of the Mallgrave book is that Vanbrugh and Hawksmoor, "collectively and apart", "define the first great line of British architectural development in the eighteenth century, an approach clearly eclectic in its methods."

You apparently don't understand sources.

Your "Cambridge" source was a generic summary by someone without an expertise in the topic at hand with an off hand attribution. As you can see from my sources, the claim about Vanbrugh being a great architect defies hundreds of years of opinion and is a fringe notion established recently by a handful of people.

The other source was just as unreliable. Your ignorance of sourcing is pitiful, almost as bad as the essayish language within the article that is far from being encyclopedic.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says that Vanbrugh "brought the English Baroque style to its culmination"; their bio of him ends with the words, "He was much liked; in the words of Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift, he was 'a man of wit and honour'".

Okay, perhaps his style fell out of favour for a while (the Encyclopaedia Britannica article mentions that his style was often called "heavy", but sees fit to defend this "heaviness" as being "in the service of the dramatic").

Given the vagaries of fashion, falling out of favour happens to anyone and anything. Remember flared trousers?

The Encyclopedia Britannica also mentions that "The increased use of stone and marble began with Sir John Vanbrugh ..."; and there is a word, http://www.google.co.uk/search?tbs=bks:1&tbo=p&q=vanbrughian&num=100, referring to the style he inspired, which seems to have been applied to a considerable number of buildings in Britain.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 10:47pm)

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says blah blah blah

The EB is done by people without expertise in a specific part of a topic (only some sort of publication in the generalized field, loosely established) with a bare use of references and mostly relying on personal memory. They have heavy amounts of original research and statements that make you go "wtf?"

Now, your reading: "style to its culmination" does not mean he was notable or influential. It just means he was the last in a type.

Then you quote a rather ridiculous claim: "The increased use of stone and marble began with Sir John Vanbrugh ..."

Or, maybe it began with the Romans? How about the Greeks? They both used lots of stone and marble. See how ridiculous and poorly worded that sentence is? Even the British Medieval time period used stone and marble, so he wasn't even special within British history.

The EB sucks. If it didn't people wouldn't bother trying to make their own encyclopedia.

Posted by: HRIP7

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 5:25am)

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sun 20th June 2010, 10:47pm)

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says blah blah blah

The EB is done by people without expertise in a specific part of a topic (only some sort of publication in the generalized field, loosely established) with a bare use of references and mostly relying on personal memory. They have heavy amounts of original research and statements that make you go "wtf?"

Now, your reading: "style to its culmination" does not mean he was notable or influential. It just means he was the last in a type.

Still, there are enough "Vanbrughian" buildings around for someone to have invented the word, and for others to apply it.

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 5:25am)

Then you quote a rather ridiculous claim: "The increased use of stone and marble began with Sir John Vanbrugh ..."

Or, maybe it began with the Romans? How about the Greeks? They both used lots of stone and marble. See how ridiculous and poorly worded that sentence is? Even the British Medieval time period used stone and marble, so he wasn't even special within British history.

Well, it does make rather more sense in context. They're talking about interior design there. Staircases and such, and how wood came to be replaced by stone, walls were left as unadorned stone, etc.

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 5:25am)

The EB sucks. If it didn't people wouldn't bother trying to make their own encyclopedia.

There is also the fact that it is expensive. Mind you, if I had gotten paid at an hourly rate for wiki-ing, I could by now probably have bought another copy of the EB with the money. You, too, eh?

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Mon 21st June 2010, 12:46am)

Still, there are enough "Vanbrughian" buildings around for someone to have invented the word, and for others to apply it.

Or, people just like to take names and modify them for overapplication. That would happen with -any- famous person you could attribute something to, whether real or fictional.

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Mon 21st June 2010, 12:46am)

Well, it does make rather more sense in context. They're talking about interior design there. Staircases and such, and how wood came to be replaced by stone, walls were left as unadorned stone, etc.

As I said before, Romans and Greeks used stone. He wasn't special. It was a toss away line by a hack wrier.

Posted by: chrisoff

Her's another view provided by Risker:

"Featured article status does not equate to being an informative, useful, interesting, encyclopedic article; it just means it meets certain arcane rules. Many editors who formerly participated in the FA process have stepped away as they have watched the emphasis change to footnotes and en-dashes instead of brilliant, well-informed and concise writing. While there are indeed exceptions, and some featured articles from the last few years have indeed been outstanding (or at least interesting), more and more of them in recent years have tended to be formulaic and distinctly uninteresting; all the references in the world aren't going to turn them into much more than a term paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them aren't just that.

I think we need to seriously consider a "fast delist" process here for articles that everyone acknowledges don't meet the 2010 standards, and allow these articles the dignity of being relatively intact. More and more editors (and readers, too) are realising that it's better to have a well-written article than it is to have a bronze star on it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369369876&oldid=369365553

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Mon 21st June 2010, 9:46am)

Her's another view provided by Risker:

"Featured article status does not equate to being an informative, useful, interesting, encyclopedic article; it just means it meets certain arcane rules. Many editors who formerly participated in the FA process have stepped away as they have watched the emphasis change to footnotes and en-dashes instead of brilliant, well-informed and concise writing. While there are indeed exceptions, and some featured articles from the last few years have indeed been outstanding (or at least interesting), more and more of them in recent years have tended to be formulaic and distinctly uninteresting; all the references in the world aren't going to turn them into much more than a term paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them aren't just that.

I think we need to seriously consider a "fast delist" process here for articles that everyone acknowledges don't meet the 2010 standards, and allow these articles the dignity of being relatively intact. More and more editors (and readers, too) are realising that it's better to have a well-written article than it is to have a bronze star on it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369369876&oldid=369365553

What the hell is Risker saying, except to attempt to redefine wp:IDONTLIKEIT as wp:IDONTFINDITINTERESTING?

She certainly has the disease of most literary critics, who think that their personal tastes are somehow written into the fabric of the universe.

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 1:20pm)

She certainly has the disease of most literary critics, who think that their personal tastes are somehow written into the fabric of the universe.

Actually, literary critics have the ability to write in a clear, concise manner. This old broad has repeatedly shown herself to be incapable of producing anything that even vaguely resembles coherent thought.

The earlier quote also included this weird statement by Nurse Anne: "The fundamental problem here is that, because of the very drastic change in FA standards, articles which absolutely met the standards at the time they received their FA status don't meet the current standards. Instead of simply saying "nope, doesn't meet the criteria anymore, time to retire the bronze star", recognising that some articles require a complete reworking to meet current standards, we tear these articles down and, frankly, make them less useful to a reader than they were before. In other words, we take a perfectly lovely square peg, and turn it into an ugly round one, just to fit a new hole."

Of course, none of this babble makes any sense. Wikipedia's credibility problems with the real world (a.k.a. people who don't play games on Wikipedia) are not enhanced by having such nutty statements by incompetent people.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Mon 21st June 2010, 9:46am)

Her's another view provided by Risker:

"Featured article status does not equate to being an informative, useful, interesting, encyclopedic article; it just means it meets certain arcane rules. Many editors who formerly participated in the FA process have stepped away as they have watched the emphasis change to footnotes and en-dashes instead of brilliant, well-informed and concise writing. While there are indeed exceptions, and some featured articles from the last few years have indeed been outstanding (or at least interesting), more and more of them in recent years have tended to be formulaic and distinctly uninteresting; all the references in the world aren't going to turn them into much more than a term paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them aren't just that.

I think we need to seriously consider a "fast delist" process here for articles that everyone acknowledges don't meet the 2010 standards, and allow these articles the dignity of being relatively intact. More and more editors (and readers, too) are realising that it's better to have a well-written article than it is to have a bronze star on it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369369876&oldid=369365553

Looking back, there was no legitimate way that the page met the FA standards back when it was first listed. Only through help of friends, as the FAR shows is readily available, did it pass. Not through any "objective standard". It was an awful page then, and it is an awful page now, and those trying to defend the page only verify that they probably shouldn't have anything to do with articles in general. The grammar is atrocious. The statements look like a 5th grader's book reports, the level of research is horribly pitiful, and it isn't even an honest attempt at an encyclopedic page.

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 1:20pm)

What the hell is Risker saying, except to attempt to redefine wp:IDONTLIKEIT as wp:IDONTFINDITINTERESTING?

She certainly has the disease of most literary critics, who think that their personal tastes are somehow written into the fabric of the universe.

She implied that the article had "brilliant, well-informed and concise writing" but that is like saying that a McDonald's hamburger is a "divine specimen of cooking meat" or that BP is "the best company when it comes to preventing and cleaning up oil spills". It is so laughably wrong that the person saying it cannot hide behind subjectivity - it is flat out lunacy or lying. I already pointed out two statements that shouldn't be anywhere close to an article with that has "decent prose", let alone "well-informed".

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 12:13pm)

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Mon 21st June 2010, 9:46am)

Her's another view provided by Risker:

"Featured article status does not equate to being an informative, useful, interesting, encyclopedic article; it just means it meets certain arcane rules. Many editors who formerly participated in the FA process have stepped away as they have watched the emphasis change to footnotes and en-dashes instead of brilliant, well-informed and concise writing. While there are indeed exceptions, and some featured articles from the last few years have indeed been outstanding (or at least interesting), more and more of them in recent years have tended to be formulaic and distinctly uninteresting; all the references in the world aren't going to turn them into much more than a term paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them aren't just that.

I think we need to seriously consider a "fast delist" process here for articles that everyone acknowledges don't meet the 2010 standards, and allow these articles the dignity of being relatively intact. More and more editors (and readers, too) are realising that it's better to have a well-written article than it is to have a bronze star on it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369369876&oldid=369365553

Looking back, there was no legitimate way that the page met the FA standards back when it was first listed. Only through help of friends, as the FAR shows is readily available, did it pass. Not through any "objective standard". It was an awful page then, and it is an awful page now, and those trying to defend the page only verify that they probably shouldn't have anything to do with articles in general. The grammar is atrocious. The statements look like a 5th grader's book reports, the level of research is horribly pitiful, and it isn't even an honest attempt at an encyclopedic page.

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 1:20pm)

What the hell is Risker saying, except to attempt to redefine wp:IDONTLIKEIT as wp:IDONTFINDITINTERESTING?

She certainly has the disease of most literary critics, who think that their personal tastes are somehow written into the fabric of the universe.

She implied that the article had "brilliant, well-informed and concise writing" but that is like saying that a McDonald's hamburger is a "divine specimen of cooking meat" or that BP is "the best company when it comes to preventing and cleaning up oil spills". It is so laughably wrong that the person saying it cannot hide behind subjectivity - it is flat out lunacy or lying. I already pointed out two statements that shouldn't be anywhere close to an article with that has "decent prose", let alone "well-informed".

Funny but for a minute there I'd swear you had a flash of insight into the nature of Wikipedia. High Level Content Creators (so-called) usually demonstrate a complete lack of understanding in how the nature of wiki software, atomized content generation, free licenses and an anti-expert, radically egalitarian community makes good writing an impossibility. So you know you're sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide? Wait, wait you're banned too. Make that sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide, backwards in high heels.

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 2:13pm)

She implied that the article had "brilliant, well-informed and concise writing" but that is like saying that a McDonald's hamburger is a "divine specimen of cooking meat" or that BP is "the best company when it comes to preventing and cleaning up oil spills". It is so laughably wrong that the person saying it cannot hide behind subjectivity - it is flat out lunacy or lying.

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 21st June 2010, 2:53pm)

Funny but for a minute there I'd swear you had a flash of insight into the nature of Wikipedia. High Level Content Creators (so-called) usually demonstrate a complete lack of understand in how the nature of wiki software, atomized content generation, free licenses and an anti-expert, radically egalitarian community makes good writing an impossibility. So you know you're sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide? Wait, wait you're banned too. Make that sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide, backwards in high heels.

I shall continue to build my sand castles as a defiance against the sea.

Posted by: Zoloft

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 9:05pm)

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 21st June 2010, 2:53pm)

Funny but for a minute there I'd swear you had a flash of insight into the nature of Wikipedia. High Level Content Creators (so-called) usually demonstrate a complete lack of understand in how the nature of wiki software, atomized content generation, free licenses and an anti-expert, radically egalitarian community makes good writing an impossibility. So you know you're sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide? Wait, wait you're banned too. Make that sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide, backwards in high heels.

I shall continue to build my sand castles as a defiance against the sea.

You are your own Sancho Panza.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 21st June 2010, 3:07pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 21st June 2010, 9:05pm)

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 21st June 2010, 2:53pm)

Funny but for a minute there I'd swear you had a flash of insight into the nature of Wikipedia. High Level Content Creators (so-called) usually demonstrate a complete lack of understand in how the nature of wiki software, atomized content generation, free licenses and an anti-expert, radically egalitarian community makes good writing an impossibility. So you know you're sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide? Wait, wait you're banned too. Make that sand painting with an etch-a-sketch, inside a sand castle at low tide, backwards in high heels.

I shall continue to build my sand castles as a defiance against the sea.

You are your own Sancho Panza.

Sometimes he's his own Dulcinea.

Posted by: ulsterman

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 11:50pm)

Sometimes he's his own Dulcinea.

But fortunately he doesn't have to be his own Rocinante. We already have one. He's been right here under our noses. We've at long last found the name of our good friend Horse without a name.

Posted by: Moulton

The name, Rocinante, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocinante#Etymology which (alas) cannot yet be said of Ottava.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:28pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 20th June 2010, 6:02pm)

Where are the blocks?

Had you been there to indict them, you'd have been blocked.

The reason there are no blocks is because you are not there to blow the whistle.

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Sun 20th June 2010, 11:42pm)

SandyGeorgia has been put in her place. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/John_Vanbrugh/archive1&curid=27074539&diff=369249286&oldid=369248525 (She didn't like it that she can't close FARs, poor soul.)

Repairing the damage http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Blurpeace&diff=prev&oldid=369251381 She realized she overstepped as one of the "overheated editors", the primary one, IMO.

Chrisoff?... Why Mattisse darling, I had no idea you had returned to us. How are the grandchildren - still editing away? Pity poor Granny cannot - Never mind at least you can try to settle old scores here. Perhaps you and Ottava could start a romance - let's face it, no one else is going to swallow either of your venom - so you may as well turn it to good use. Sweet dreams.

Giacomo

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 6:32pm)

Chrisoff?... Why Mattisse darling, I had no idea you had returned to us. How are the grandchildren - still editing away? Pity poor Granny cannot - Never mind at least you can try to settle old scores here. Perhaps you and Ottava could start a romance - let's face it, no one else is going to swallow either of your venom - so you may as well turn it to good use. Sweet dreams.

Giacomo

Giano, the only venom there is by your buddies. The same venom that forced it through FAC without an honest review to begin with. It literally has 5th grade book report language. You still didn't remove the shitty use of "one". You don't address the reader in an encyclopedic page!!! How do you not understand that?

Furthermore, the attack on the DNB without -any- honest source is disgusting. You took fringe views, ignored more than 50% of the scholarship on the matter, and put in childish phrasing.

Fix your damn page and stop abusing honest reviewers! You are making yourself look shameful and ignorant as you continue to not fix that page. It is shit. Go fix it.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 11:55pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 6:32pm)

Chrisoff?... Why Mattisse darling, I had no idea you had returned to us. How are the grandchildren - still editing away? Pity poor Granny cannot - Never mind at least you can try to settle old scores here. Perhaps you and Ottava could start a romance - let's face it, no one else is going to swallow either of your venom - so you may as well turn it to good use. Sweet dreams.

Giacomo

Giano, the only venom there is by your buddies. The same venom that forced it through FAC without an honest review to begin with. It literally has 5th grade book report language. You still didn't remove the shitty use of "one". You don't address the reader in an encyclopedic page!!! How do you not understand that?

Furthermore, the attack on the DNB without -any- honest source is disgusting. You took fringe views, ignored more than 50% of the scholarship on the matter, and put in childish phrasing.

Fix your damn page and stop abusing honest reviewers! You are making yourself look shameful and ignorant as you continue to not fix that page. It is shit. Go fix it.

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit. I sympathise, but you and Mattisse (unlike many of the others here) really have no one to blame but yourselves for your sad predicament. Neither of you were victims of admin abuse or even general hatred - people just became sick and tired of the pair of you banging on thinking that you were both better and cleverer than all the others - that really does get up people's noses far more than arguing on policy pages etc. You both might like to consider that if you are ever permitted to return.

Giacomo

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 4:55pm)

It is shit. Go fix it.

Feeble content provider conceit.

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(ulsterman @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 6:43am)

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 11:50pm)

Sometimes he's his own Dulcinea.

But fortunately he doesn't have to be his own Rocinante. We already have one. He's been right here under our noses. We've at long last found the name of our good friend Horse without a name.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit.

Giacomo

Is that so?

I guess you didn't see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode%3A_Intimations_of_Immortality.

That is in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard.

3 hefty and extremely important pages.

But Giano, I do thank you for removing one of the most atrocious lines from that page. It wasn't that hard, was it?

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:18pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit.

Giacomo

Is that so?

I guess you didn't see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode%3A_Intimations_of_Immortality.

That is in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard.

3 hefty and extremely important pages.

But Giano, I do thank you for removing one of the most atrocious lines from that page. It wasn't that hard, was it?

Why do I sense some really horrendous parenting lurking behind all this "kick me out but I'll show you I'm worthy?"

Posted by: Jon Awbrey

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 9:34pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:18pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit.

Giacomo

Is that so?

I guess you didn't see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode%3A_Intimations_of_Immortality.

That is in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard.

3 hefty and extremely important pages.

But Giano, I do thank you for removing one of the most atrocious lines from that page. It wasn't that hard, was it?

Why do I sense some really horrendous parenting lurking behind all this "kick me out but I'll show you I'm worthy?"

No, the other Khan â€¦

Jon

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 6:34pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:18pm)

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit.

Giacomo

Is that so?

I guess you didn't see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode%3A_Intimations_of_Immortality.

That is in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard.

3 hefty and extremely important pages.

But Giano, I do thank you for removing one of the most atrocious lines from that page. It wasn't that hard, was it?

Why do I sense some really horrendous parenting lurking behind all this "kick me out but I'll show you I'm worthy?"

It's an old tale. I figure James Dean for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_of_Eden_(film) here.

Posted by: Giano

QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 2:18am)

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 7:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit.

Giacomo

Is that so?

I guess you didn't see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode%3A_Intimations_of_Immortality.

That is in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard.

3 hefty and extremely important pages.

But Giano, I do thank you for removing one of the most atrocious lines from that page. It wasn't that hard, was it?

Yes Ottava I have seem your self proclaimed "3 hefty and extremely important pages" You ram them down our throats so often - could one miss them? I am not going to comment on their "extremely important " content; I'll leave writing a critique of your work for others.

But, I'm glad you like the removal of the offending line, I thought you would. I replaced a fact with some pretentious, but fully referenced, meaningless claptrap - just for you ("His architectural works have been described as "the architectural equivalent of the heroic play, theatrical, grandiose, a dramatic grouping of restless masses with little reference to function"). You see Ottava, there is a little more to writing an educational page for people of all intelects than just regurgitating the personal (and often frankly odd) opinions of frequently contraversial authors and "experts." Anyway we will leave the "claptrap" there, for the time being, as a lesson in common sense for you and I shall laugh everytime I think of you approving of it.

Giacomo

Posted by: EricBarbour

Isn't Wikipedia wonderful?

It brings out the incompetent literary critic in everyone.

Posted by: Moulton

Someday I'll have to look up the etymology of "claptrap".

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(Giano @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 6:37pm)

Oh Ottava, you really are a ranting prat! You are just sick and green because you cannot edit. I sympathise, but you and Mattisse (unlike many of the others here) really have no one to blame but yourselves for your sad predicament.

I am not one for outing people, but...I am under the impression that Giano is really Bruno from "Dancing with the Stars." I mean, really, listen to the way Giano talks here and see Bruno in action in this video:

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Tue 22nd June 2010, 8:54pm)

No, the other Khan â€¦

The original hot chili mama herself:

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Giano @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 3:27am)

But, I'm glad you like the removal of the offending line, I thought you would. I replaced a fact ...

Giano, you really thought that "one need only look around to see that this article is 100% right" is somehow academic or encyclopedic? Come on. The tone alone would suggest a sort of worry about people believing your statements of his notability. That is like saying "chocolate is delicious, one need only taste it yourself to see that". Then there is the idea that looking around to see places named after him is misleading, as infamous people have places dedicated to them (so, that would make him look bad).

You also do very little regarding his plays, even though some of them were on the stage for 100 years. That is rather impressive, you know. It should probably make its way into the article.

QUOTE

than just regurgitating the personal (and often frankly odd) opinions of frequently contraversial authors and "experts."

As I stated before, I summarize facts that are held in multiple sources, and quote opinion. The opinion is kept to one specific area, which is part of a long tradition of analyzing critical reception (hence works like the "Critical Heritage" and such). I always use the major sources and the respected critics. Hell, I got into trouble at ArbCom for I de-emphasizing John Beer (because his reputation fell after he joined Britannica). I have always been a snob when it comes to sources.

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 21st June 2010, 5:20pm)

What the hell is Risker saying, except to attempt to redefine wp:IDONTLIKEIT as wp:IDONTFINDITINTERESTING?

Surely one category was already a sub-set of the other. Unless you mean she's implying that any other reasons for NOTLIKINGIT should be taken seriously now.

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 21st June 2010, 7:44pm)

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

"Bob's Big Boy" definitely.

Posted by: EricBarbour

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 5:54pm)

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 21st June 2010, 7:44pm)

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

"Bob's Big Boy" definitely.

Ugh. Stop patronizing chains.
Support locally-owned bistros (no matter how http://mollybrennans.com/ they might be

)

Weren't we supposed to be abusing Giano here? Not fun anymore?

Posted by: Zoloft

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 25th June 2010, 5:43am)

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 5:54pm)

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 21st June 2010, 7:44pm)

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

"Bob's Big Boy" definitely.

Ugh. Stop patronizing chains.
Support locally-owned bistros (no matter how http://mollybrennans.com/ they might be

)

Weren't we supposed to be abusing Giano here? Not fun anymore?

I can unify both these themes:
Giano is like the burger at your local bar and grill joint on the corner - half a pound of hand-pattied beef, cooked decently, kinda juicy and hearty, but unfortunately you have to listen to the barkeep/owner's rancid political prattle as you chow it down.

Posted by: Subtle Bee

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 25th June 2010, 12:28am)

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 25th June 2010, 5:43am)

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 5:54pm)

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 21st June 2010, 7:44pm)

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

"Bob's Big Boy" definitely.

Ugh. Stop patronizing chains.
Support locally-owned bistros (no matter how http://mollybrennans.com/ they might be

)

Weren't we supposed to be abusing Giano here? Not fun anymore?

I can unify both these themes:
Giano is like the burger at your local bar and grill joint on the corner - half a pound of hand-pattied beef, cooked decently, kinda juicy and hearty, but unfortunately you have to listen to the barkeep/owner's rancid political prattle as you chow it down.

So, wait... Giano's the burger, but he's also the barkeep?
No, wait... the beef is juicy, but the prattle is rancid?
No, no, wait... you fantasized about chowing down on a half-pound of hand-pattied Giano-beef, knowing full well that Horsey would be along to see it?

I don't get it.

Posted by: Zoloft

QUOTE(Subtle Bee @ Fri 25th June 2010, 8:04am)

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 25th June 2010, 12:28am)

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 25th June 2010, 5:43am)

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 23rd June 2010, 5:54pm)

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 21st June 2010, 7:44pm)

Hey, I happen to like McDonald's a lot. If you want to dis burger joints, you can dump on White Castle.

"Bob's Big Boy" definitely.

Ugh. Stop patronizing chains.
Support locally-owned bistros (no matter how http://mollybrennans.com/ they might be

)

Weren't we supposed to be abusing Giano here? Not fun anymore?

I can unify both these themes:
Giano is like the burger at your local bar and grill joint on the corner - half a pound of hand-pattied beef, cooked decently, kinda juicy and hearty, but unfortunately you have to listen to the barkeep/owner's rancid political prattle as you chow it down.

So, wait... Giano's the burger, but he's also the barkeep?
No, wait... the beef is juicy, but the prattle is rancid?
No, no, wait... you fantasized about chowing down on a half-pound of hand-pattied Giano-beef, knowing full well that Horsey would be along to see it?

I don't get it.

Oh, wait. You wanted it to make sense?

That wasn't in the project requirements.

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 25th June 2010, 3:28am)

I can unify both these themes:
Giano is like the burger at your local bar and grill joint on the corner - half a pound of hand-pattied beef, cooked decently, kinda juicy and hearty, but unfortunately you have to listen to the barkeep/owner's rancid political prattle as you chow it down.

I would think this would be more apt:

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

Posted by: Mike R

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th June 2010, 9:01am)

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

The fat's what makes it good.

Posted by: Zoloft

QUOTE(Mike R @ Fri 25th June 2010, 2:06pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th June 2010, 9:01am)

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

The fat's what makes it good.

Drama == Bacon

Mmmm... sweet, salty bacon...

Posted by: Ottava

QUOTE(Mike R @ Fri 25th June 2010, 10:06am)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th June 2010, 9:01am)

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

The fat's what makes it good.

I hate when people say that. One only need to try unsalted butter to find out that the above is a lie. Salt is what makes it taste good, not fat. Fat tastes greasy and bland.

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 25th June 2010, 10:41am)

QUOTE(Mike R @ Fri 25th June 2010, 2:06pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th June 2010, 9:01am)

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

The fat's what makes it good.

Drama == Bacon

Mmmm... sweet, salty bacon...

Now, this is how entrepreneurial endeavors get created. We've just put together the next great food retail experience: Giano Burgers. Throw in a heaping side order of Ottava Fries and a frothy Malleus Malted, and we can make more money than Jimbo.

Posted by: Zoloft

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Fri 25th June 2010, 4:58pm)

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 25th June 2010, 10:41am)

QUOTE(Mike R @ Fri 25th June 2010, 2:06pm)

QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th June 2010, 9:01am)

Giano is that 1/2 burger, but it is 1/2 pound because 1/4 pound of it is pure fat, and that excess fat makes the sandwich too awful for you to actually be able to swallow any of it. If he could trim it off and stick with just what people want, then it could be a decent sandwich.

The fat's what makes it good.

Drama == Bacon

Mmmm... sweet, salty bacon...

Now, this is how entrepreneurial endeavors get created. We've just put together the next great food retail experience: Giano Burgers. Throw in a heaping side order of Ottava Fries and a frothy Malleus Malted, and we can make more money than Jimbo.

Don't forget the http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/Arbys-Horsey-Sauce-266284 on the Giano Burger.

Posted by: radek

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Sun 20th June 2010, 5:42pm)

(She didn't like it that she can't close FARs, poor soul.)

Since when can't she close FARs? She just closedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Treaty_of_Ciudad_JuÃ¡rez/archive1 after an unbelievably short period of time, afterhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mm40 showed up and opposed because the article didn't include some references which s/he found on google scholar but didn't bother to read before insisting on them (if s/he had, it'd be mind numbingly obvious that these references are totally irrelevant to the article).

Not to mention style suggestions which displayed the suggester's cluelessness as to proper writing.

Now Sandy's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SandyGeorgia#umm.2C_what_happened.3F with some ridiculous "we have a backlog" excuse which is completely beside the point.

(in fairness I lemme add that Ucucha and Brianboulton made useful suggestion)

Posted by: chrisoff

You've hear of the [[Madonnaâ€“whore complex]]? With Sandy, everyone is all good or all bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Alternative_text_for_images&curid=243414&diff=370504450&oldid=370486469

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Mon 28th June 2010, 12:42am)

You've hear of the [[Madonnaâ€“whore complex]]? With Sandy, everyone is all good or all bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Alternative_text_for_images&curid=243414&diff=370504450&oldid=370486469

What a very fauvist thing to say...

Posted by: Subtle Bee

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sun 27th June 2010, 8:49pm)

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Mon 28th June 2010, 12:42am)

You've hear of the [[Madonnaâ€“whore complex]]? With Sandy, everyone is all good or all bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Alternative_text_for_images&curid=243414&diff=370504450&oldid=370486469

What a very fauvist thing to say...

This is one of those times I'm really glad I looked something up!

Noice!

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_ The Wikipedia Annex _ Bishonen and Giano FARs

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