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> The Old Man Murray flap
taiwopanfob
post Fri 4th March 2011, 10:37pm
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QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 4th March 2011, 9:02pm) *
If these two piddlers are going to continue, can it go into the WP Annexe?


Better question: is Silver seren's purpose to convert every thread into a WP Annex candidate?
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thekohser
post Fri 4th March 2011, 10:41pm
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QUOTE(Silver seren @ Fri 4th March 2011, 1:50pm) *

...kinda taints...


It's all about the taint, isn't it?
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Silver seren
post Fri 4th March 2011, 11:10pm
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@Kohser: With me? Of course. tongue.gif
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EricBarbour
post Sat 5th March 2011, 12:55am
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QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 4th March 2011, 9:02pm) *
If these two piddlers are going to continue, can it go into the WP Annexe?

Why? Don't you love Seren, your fellow Wiki-luv-boy?

QUOTE(taiwopanfob @ Fri 4th March 2011, 2:37pm) *
Better question: is Silver seren's purpose to convert every thread into a WP Annex candidate?

This is why I post the really nasty stuff in the "seekrit" forum......so he won't be able to act on it.
The Ben Schumin thing is trivial bullshit, though it does demonstrate the profound corruption of WP's normal operations.
He plays politics very well, the only people who complain about him are minor editors or vandals.

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sat 5th March 2011, 12:56am
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Silver seren
post Sat 5th March 2011, 1:53am
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By the way, did any of you guy read this Rock, Paper, Shotgun article?

It says "If you saw Wednesday’s article about Old Man Murray’s temporary deletion from Wikipedia, you’ll know that it was originally deemed “not notable” due to a lack of references. That’s been fixed now, thanks to the very hard work of Wikipedia editors. (It’s probably wise not to dismiss one of the greatest works of humanity over a single, dodgy admin settling personal grudges. Compare and contrast with when we turned our attention to Fox News. Nothing changed. Wikipedia addresses the issue professionally within 24 hours.) And we want to help it stay that way."

So...Rock, Paper, Shotgun thinks Wikipedia is worthwhile.
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Sarcasticidealist
post Sat 5th March 2011, 1:57am
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QUOTE(Silver seren @ Fri 4th March 2011, 9:53pm) *
So...Rock, Paper, Shotgun thinks Wikipedia is worthwhile.
While always fallacious, appeals to authority are marginally less offensive when there is an actual authority involved.

This post has been edited by Sarcasticidealist: Sat 5th March 2011, 2:46am
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Silver seren
post Sat 5th March 2011, 2:02am
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tongue.gif

It was more in response to what Eric said before about a previous article that Rock, Paper, Shotgun put out that was negative toward Wikipedia (before the deletion review reversed the deletion).
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Somey
post Sat 5th March 2011, 7:36am
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QUOTE(Silver seren @ Fri 4th March 2011, 7:53pm) *
It says "If you saw Wednesday’s article about Old Man Murray’s temporary deletion from Wikipedia, you’ll know that it was originally deemed “not notable” due to a lack of references. That’s been fixed now, thanks to the very hard work of Wikipedia editors. (It’s probably wise not to dismiss one of the greatest works of humanity over a single, dodgy admin settling personal grudges. Compare and contrast with when we turned our attention to Fox News. Nothing changed. Wikipedia addresses the issue professionally within 24 hours.) And we want to help it stay that way."

So...Rock, Paper, Shotgun thinks Wikipedia is worthwhile.

That's not quite what they said though, is it? They said it's "one of the greatest works of humanity." You could say the same thing about, say, nuclear weapons, totalitarianism, or the Jimmy Buffett discography.

Nobody is denying that Wikipedia is impressively big, has lots of stuff going on with it all the time, and is viewed by lots and lots of people. We're simply pointing out that those are not necessarily good things.
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Zoloft
post Sat 5th March 2011, 7:46am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 4th March 2011, 11:36pm) *

QUOTE(Silver seren @ Fri 4th March 2011, 7:53pm) *
It says "If you saw Wednesday’s article about Old Man Murray’s temporary deletion from Wikipedia, you’ll know that it was originally deemed “not notable” due to a lack of references. That’s been fixed now, thanks to the very hard work of Wikipedia editors. (It’s probably wise not to dismiss one of the greatest works of humanity over a single, dodgy admin settling personal grudges. Compare and contrast with when we turned our attention to Fox News. Nothing changed. Wikipedia addresses the issue professionally within 24 hours.) And we want to help it stay that way."

So...Rock, Paper, Shotgun thinks Wikipedia is worthwhile.

That's not quite what they said though, is it? They said it's "one of the greatest works of humanity." You could say the same thing about, say, nuclear weapons, totalitarianism, or the Jimmy Buffett discography.

Nobody is denying that Wikipedia is impressively big, has lots of stuff going on with it all the time, and is viewed by lots and lots of people. We're simply pointing out that those are not necessarily good things.


*sings off-key, waving a salt-encrusted glass*
"Your time is... wasted again in Wikipediaville..."
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Somey
post Sat 5th March 2011, 8:07am
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Sat 5th March 2011, 1:46am) *
"Your time is... wasted again in Wikipediaville..."

Indeed. But having said what I said above, I should also hasten to point out that my own sympathies are mostly with Mr. Schumin in this instance. It appears to be true that he's pathetic, but that could be said of lots of people, including myself (depending on what day of the week it is).

Anyway, simply put, his reaction to a long-running series of personal insults from the Old Man Murray forums (whether or not they were justified) was to try to get information about the offending parties deleted from the internet. It would be completely hypocritical for me to suggest that this sort of reaction is inherently wrong, since after all, my own reaction to a comparatively short series of insults from a small number of Wikipedians was, at least initially, to call for Wikipedia to be deleted from the internet.

Of course, the difference is that I knew that even with dogged persistence and a non-negligible amount of behind-the-scenes influence, I had (and still have) no real chance of success, despite how much better off the world would be if I succeeded. Whereas Mr. Schumin, with a much smaller (and now increasingly moribund) target, came very close to succeeding in this instance - and given that the world would barely notice either way, there's no real guarantee that he won't have better luck next time.
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Somey
post Sat 5th March 2011, 8:22am
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And if you'll indulge me just a wee bit further, this incident could actually be very ominous for Wikipedia as a whole, despite how trivial it seems. Gamers have always been one of Wikipedia's core constituencies, and that hasn't changed since the early days of the site's existence. Time and again, we've seen how websites suffer when they get a little too full of themselves and start doing things that alienate one or more of their core constituencies. It's like when you ban people - they don't simply go away; they get pissed off, start bad-mouthing you in public, plot revenge, launch competitors, and so on. But unlike banning people, which usually only produces one or two pissed-off people at a time, alienating gamers would create a vast group of organized, technically-adept, highly motivated, and in many cases extremely clever individuals lined up against WP and its administrators.

So as I often do, I'd have to agree with Mr. Barbour - keeping Mr. Schumin in the Wikipedia admin ranks is a really, really bad idea, at least for Wikipedia. Of course, that's exactly why they'll keep him; they're all big fans of the Really Bad Idea.
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EricBarbour
post Sat 5th March 2011, 8:21pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 5th March 2011, 12:22am) *

And if you'll indulge me just a wee bit further, this incident could actually be very ominous for Wikipedia as a whole, despite how trivial it seems. Gamers have always been one of Wikipedia's core constituencies, and that hasn't changed since the early days of the site's existence. Time and again, we've seen how websites suffer when they get a little too full of themselves and start doing things that alienate one or more of their core constituencies. It's like when you ban people - they don't simply go away; they get pissed off, start bad-mouthing you in public, plot revenge, launch competitors, and so on. But unlike banning people, which usually only produces one or two pissed-off people at a time, alienating gamers would create a vast group of organized, technically-adept, highly motivated, and in many cases extremely clever individuals lined up against WP and its administrators.

So as I often do, I'd have to agree with Mr. Barbour - keeping Mr. Schumin in the Wikipedia admin ranks is a really, really bad idea, at least for Wikipedia. Of course, that's exactly why they'll keep him; they're all big fans of the Really Bad Idea.

Thank you. Now, how to change Seren's mind.
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Kelly Martin
post Sat 5th March 2011, 8:28pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 5th March 2011, 2:21pm) *
Thank you. Now, how to change Seren's mind.
First you'll have to find it.
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Milton Roe
post Sat 5th March 2011, 10:30pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 5th March 2011, 1:22am) *

And if you'll indulge me just a wee bit further, this incident could actually be very ominous for Wikipedia as a whole, despite how trivial it seems. Gamers have always been one of Wikipedia's core constituencies, and that hasn't changed since the early days of the site's existence. Time and again, we've seen how websites suffer when they get a little too full of themselves and start doing things that alienate one or more of their core constituencies. It's like when you ban people - they don't simply go away; they get pissed off, start bad-mouthing you in public, plot revenge, launch competitors, and so on. But unlike banning people, which usually only produces one or two pissed-off people at a time, alienating gamers would create a vast group of organized, technically-adept, highly motivated, and in many cases extremely clever individuals lined up against WP and its administrators.

So as I often do, I'd have to agree with Mr. Barbour - keeping Mr. Schumin in the Wikipedia admin ranks is a really, really bad idea, at least for Wikipedia. Of course, that's exactly why they'll keep him; they're all big fans of the Really Bad Idea.

But in the case of alienating gamers, what's bad for Wikipedia is explicitly GOOD for Wikia. Long ago Jimbo Wales set up WP rules in such a way as to encourage gaming and 'cruft crap to go to someplace where he personally could make AdSense money from it. By now, the habit is so ingrained that not even people who own no Wikia shares question it. It's not as though Wikia is publically traded-- most people who help Jimbo by sweeping 'cruft off WP hardly know what they're doing. They haven't thought about it. Since WP is NOTPAPER, they really have no reason except a vague notion of habit.

I've sometimes thought that a lot of clarification of WP:NOT could be done, if it were simply rewritten as WP:NOTWIKIA, explaining all this in terms that even a Neckbeard (thanks for that) might understand.

After all, can you think of any reason except ethical and financial reasons, why WP should NOT be anything you can think of, that is hyperlinkable? I can't. And there's no sign at all that the people who own Wikia have any ethics. From BLP we can see that WP doesn't.
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Silver seren
post Sun 6th March 2011, 5:55am
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Hmmmmmmm.

Why am I not surprised?
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EricBarbour
post Mon 14th March 2011, 4:54am
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Yet another Slashdot post about the OMM business.

This time, the squabble has moved to the Signpost. Also.
Yes, that tie-dyed blimp Schumin is still up to no good. Why hasn't anyone RFCed him?

Look at the talkpage archives. There's only one, from 2006-2007.
Yet there was a very long argument on there back around March 4, when the AFD battle was ongoing.
I suspect some admin has been erasing and oversighting the talkpage. Something suspicious.

Also being proposed as a subject for the Signpost. Twenty bucks sez it'll never be mentioned again.

And now, "meatpuppet" is an insult.. Do tell. hrmph.gif

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Mon 14th March 2011, 5:01am
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Somey
post Mon 14th March 2011, 6:18am
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What a strange, strange person... This is one of those guys who basically documents his whole life on the web, with his own highly extensive Youtube channel, a large personal website that appears to be devoted to total, utter banality, and videos like this that go on for 20 minutes about literally nothing whatsoever:



No sane person could watch this for more than 90 seconds, and even an insane person would be hard-pressed to get past 3 minutes.

This guy is clearly a full-blown narcissist, and probably OCD too, though he appears mostly harmless - I doubt he's a sociopath or some other sort of weirdo. He does seem to have an almost completely infantile mentality. It's good to know that he can hold down a job, and doesn't seem to have any serious medical problems, other than being overweight.

FWIW, I hate to say things like this about people I've never met in person, but when there's this much documentary evidence it's hard not to reach those conclusions. I mean, it was obvious enough with people like Phil Sandifer and Shankers, and they weren't even video-bloggers. I can see now why the Old Man Murphy forum users reacted to Schumin the way they did, and frankly, his insistence on trying to get that article deleted is dangerously close to Streisand Effect territory for him, if it isn't already there.

Again, I'm not going to say that what he's doing is wrong - after all, if I were a Wikipedian myself, I'd probably be voting "Delete" in every AfD I could get my hands on. But if he really wants that deletion to happen, he'd better come up with a few "meat puppets" of his own, ASAP.
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Jon Awbrey
post Mon 14th March 2011, 6:28am
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τὰ δέ μοι παθήματα μαθήματα γέγονε
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I made it through 16 seconds, but that was with the audio turned off.

So I must be sane after all …

Jon dizzy.gif
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Somey
post Mon 14th March 2011, 6:32am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 14th March 2011, 1:28am) *
I made it through 16 seconds, but that was with the audio turned off.

So I must be sane after all …

Who would have guessed? smile.gif

The thing is, about 75 seconds in, he turns on this really loud fire-drill sound effect, and if you've still got the audio on at that point, there's no way you're going to want to keep it on for another 2 seconds, much less another 20 minutes. I mean, how can anyone do this? It's mind-boggling, it really is.
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melloden
post Mon 14th March 2011, 7:01am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Mon 14th March 2011, 6:32am) *

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 14th March 2011, 1:28am) *
I made it through 16 seconds, but that was with the audio turned off.

So I must be sane after all …

Who would have guessed? smile.gif

The thing is, about 75 seconds in, he turns on this really loud fire-drill sound effect, and if you've still got the audio on at that point, there's no way you're going to want to keep it on for another 2 seconds, much less another 20 minutes. I mean, how can anyone do this? It's mind-boggling, it really is.


This is why I can't stand listening to gay-ish male voices for very long.
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