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> Racism, On Wikipedia
radek
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 4:09am
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QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:05pm) *

Read the whole post instead of just skimming it then especially the bottom quote :| Unless you're missing the point entirely in which case I just give up unhappy.gif


I did read the whole post. Not seeing it.
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Malik Shabazz
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 6:09am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:12pm) *

QUOTE(radek @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:02pm) *

QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 8:58pm) *


I don't understand how that is relevant to anything.


If I chose to name my account, "David Duke", would it mean anything to you?

If you had been using the name David Duke longer than "David Zulu Duke", you'd be pissed off. I've been using the name Malik Shabazz in various online forums since the early 1990s.

QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:18pm) *

Malik why do you use the name Malcom X chose when he joined the racist Nation of Islam organisation, which he later denounced, and was murdered by, then?

First, Malik Shabazz isn't the name Malcolm X (spelling counts!) chose when he joined the Nation of Islam.

Second, I was under the impression until I read Manning Marable's 2011 biography, Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention, that Malcolm X adopted the name Malik Shabazz after he left the Nation of Islam and made his pilgrimage to Mecca. Marable says the name Malcolm Shabazz or Malik Shabazz was adopted during the 1950s.

Finally, do you really think you have to lecture me about Malcolm X? I wrote the Wikipedia (featured) article about him.

QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:43pm) *

They murdered him only two days later.

Two days after what?

He left the Nation of Islam on March 8, 1964, and was assassinated on February 21, 1965. By my count, that's 11, almost 12 months.

QUOTE(Malik Shabazz @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 1:19am) *

QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:43pm) *

They murdered him only two days later.

Two days after what?

He left the Nation of Islam on March 8, 1964, and was assassinated on February 21, 1965. By my count, that's 11, almost 12 months.

Sorry, now I see what you mean. Two days after his last conversation with Gordon Parks.

QUOTE(Selina @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 11:05pm) *

Read the whole post instead of just skimming it then especially the bottom quote :| Unless you're missing the point entirely in which case I just give up unhappy.gif

Selina, I'm afraid you have me confused with somebody else. I'm not a member of the Nation of Islam, nor am I sympathetic toward them -- I just think they deserve the benefit of Wikipedia rules like WP:V and WP:NPOV.

If a source says the Nation of Islam is a Black separatist movement, it can't be used to support a statement in the article that the NoI is a Black supremacist movement. Not because of what I think or you think, but because the source says A and the article says B. We can't wave our hands and say "racism is racism is racism" and pretend all the sources support all the evil things editors want to attribute to the Nation of Islam. If you want to say the NoI is a Black supremacist movement, you need sources that say it's a Black supremacist movement. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

(Mod note: Quadruple posting does not give you "word score", please click Quote on posts you want to quote before Add Reply'ing! - Selina)

This post has been edited by Selina: Thu 23rd February 2012, 1:12pm
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Wikifan
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:11am
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QUOTE
Selina, I'm afraid you have me confused with somebody else. I'm not a member of the Nation of Islam, nor am I sympathetic toward them -- I just think they deserve the benefit of Wikipedia rules like WP:V and WP:NPOV.


give me a break. you're biased just like every editor. nation of islam is a joke.

This post has been edited by Wikifan: Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:16am
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Mister Die
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:51am
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It shouldn't be too hard to find sources that note the NoI as an organization whose ideology, in the end, does promote racism and black supremacism. Their main story is, after all, that Jacob (Yakub) created white people as more or less inherently evil types. Their black separatism is basically identical with the white separatism of George Lincoln Rockwell and Co., in contrast with the view that the remnants of slavery (share-cropping) plus capitalism created an oppressed "black nation" in the south (as was the view of the Comintern and some black socialists in the 60's and 70's), whereas the NoI held the view that whites and blacks had inherently unequal relations between each other based on racist "theories" and that both "white nationalists" (Neo-Nazis) and "black natonalists" (NoI) must cooperate to secure the peaceful separation of both "races."

For what it's worth I have a few actual encyclopedia volumes, and in Grolier's Encyclopedia of Knowledge Vol. 3 it states on the Black Muslims (as the NoI are called), p. 163, that: "Preaching an antiintegrationist message, Elijah Muhammad frequently voiced warnings about 'the human beast the people or race known as the white.'" Then it notes their racial separatism. I think Wikipedia can manage to note both.

This post has been edited by Mister Die: Thu 23rd February 2012, 11:03am
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Web Fred
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 12:19pm
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Wed 22nd February 2012, 10:12pm) *



Just a reminder.


A great and thought provoking speech from my MP (who usually is a bit of a twat).
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Selina
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 1:22pm
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The sad thing is though that this thread was crap all to do with "zionism", just some people seem to take anything as an excuse to rant about jews... spectacularly inappropriate thread to start it in too :|

@Emperor: I'd say you're right, after having a look around, I'm 90% sure "nableezy" is a sockpuppet of EricBarbour who otherwise makes good points here most of the time. Disappointing, seriously. unhappy.gif



@Malik: "WP:V"? That's not the kind of "common sense" you were talking about before... I don't think asking any normal people outside Wikipedia would classify the BNP or "nation of islam" as "separatist movements" than racist organisations...
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lilburne
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 1:26pm
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QUOTE(Cunningly Linguistic @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 12:19pm) *

A great and thought provoking speech from my MP (who usually is a bit of a twat).



I thought you said you DIDN'T live in a Liverpudlian suburb.
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Malik Shabazz
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 6:46pm
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QUOTE(Selina @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 8:22am) *

@Malik: "WP:V"? That's not the kind of "common sense" you were talking about before... I don't think asking any normal people outside Wikipedia would classify the BNP or "nation of islam" as "separatist movements" than racist organisations...

Well then change Nation of Islam to describe the NoI as a racist religious movement instead of a Black supremacist religious movement. Then remove the sources that describe it as Black supremacist and find sources that describe it as racist. That shouldn't be hard.

Surely you don't need me to explain to you how to edit Wikipedia.
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Fusion
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 9:42pm
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QUOTE(Cunningly Linguistic @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 12:19pm) *

A great and thought provoking speech from my MP (who usually is a bit of a twat).

Yes indeed in this clip he sounds like one. Anyway, thanks for letting me learn a new word. biggrin.gif

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Herschelkrustofsky
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 9:51pm
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Mod's note: Selina has blocked Nableezy until the year 2028, on the grounds that he is Eric Barbour's sockpuppet. Meanwhile, at Wikipedia, Nableezy (T-C-L-K-R-D) and EricBarbour (T-C-L-K-R-D) are still regarded as two separate and distinct individuals.
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Fusion
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:01pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 9:51pm) *

Mod's note: Selina has blocked Nableezy until the year 2028, on the grounds that he is Eric Barbour's sockpuppet. Meanwhile, at Wikipedia, Nableezy (T-C-L-K-R-D) and EricBarbour (T-C-L-K-R-D) are still regarded as two separate and distinct individuals.

As Eric Barbour was blocked three years ago I doubt that anyone has been checking lately. Anyway, is not Wikipedia far from a reliable source? What it says proves nothing!
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Wikifan
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:07pm
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QUOTE
Well then change Nation of Islam to describe the NoI as a racist religious movement instead of a Black supremacist religious movement. Then remove the sources that describe it as Black supremacist and find sources that describe it as racist. That shouldn't be hard.


yeah, good luck with that. you've already set yourself as the protector of malcolm's x legacy and shown a very possessive view on the movement.

nation of islam is a just mutant religious cult. an unoriginal one too.

LF:

QUOTE
The international bankers have always wanted what they called a "balance of power in the world... The Warburgs, the Rothschilds who financed Hitler. German Jews financed Hitler right here in America.... International banks financed Hitler and poor Jews died while big Jews were at the root of what you call the Holocaust....Little Jews died while big Jews made money. Little Jews [were] being turned into soap while big Jews washed themselves with it...."We [blacks] didn't kill one Jew...We were not involved there...That was your white brother, Hitler...How in the hell can you call us anti-Semitic?" _ February 26, 1995: Saviour's Day speech in Chicago: "They [banks] would loan money to both sides in the conflict, `cause they really didn't care who won or who lost. I mean it's hurtful, but a Jew--Rothschild--loaned money to Adolf Hitler. A Jew. Rothschild. Goddamnit you better not open your mouth to call me no anti-Semite! Rothschild and Paul Warburg loaned money. Hitler killed little Jews while Rothschild and Warburg stayed in the finest hotels in Europe. But damn it, if you can't call Rothschild anti-Semitic and Warburg an anti-Semite, then you don't open your mouth against me..


sourced from ADL but quotes are available elsewhere.

QUOTE
To the whites and `white Jews' in the audience, I say: It's gonna be a rough ride, buddy....Buckle your seat belts...because I didn't come to pin the tail on the donkey, I came to pin the tail on the honkey...bring me your rabbis and I'll strip your butts naked


yeah, totally not racist at all.

This post has been edited by Wikifan: Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:08pm
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Ego Trippin' (Part Two)
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:44pm
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 5:07pm) *

QUOTE
The international bankers have always wanted what they called a "balance of power in the world... The Warburgs, the Rothschilds who financed Hitler. German Jews financed Hitler right here in America.... International banks financed Hitler and poor Jews died while big Jews were at the root of what you call the Holocaust....Little Jews died while big Jews made money. Little Jews [were] being turned into soap while big Jews washed themselves with it...."We [blacks] didn't kill one Jew...We were not involved there...That was your white brother, Hitler...How in the hell can you call us anti-Semitic?" _ February 26, 1995: Saviour's Day speech in Chicago: "They [banks] would loan money to both sides in the conflict, `cause they really didn't care who won or who lost. I mean it's hurtful, but a Jew--Rothschild--loaned money to Adolf Hitler. A Jew. Rothschild. Goddamnit you better not open your mouth to call me no anti-Semite! Rothschild and Paul Warburg loaned money. Hitler killed little Jews while Rothschild and Warburg stayed in the finest hotels in Europe. But damn it, if you can't call Rothschild anti-Semitic and Warburg an anti-Semite, then you don't open your mouth against me..


sourced from ADL but quotes are available elsewhere.


What are you implying by bolding that particular sentence?
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The Joy
post Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:54pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 4:51pm) *

Mod's note: Selina has blocked Nableezy until the year 2028, on the grounds that he is Eric Barbour's sockpuppet. Meanwhile, at Wikipedia, Nableezy (T-C-L-K-R-D) and EricBarbour (T-C-L-K-R-D) are still regarded as two separate and distinct individuals.


That makes no sense, whatsoever. hrmph.gif
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Wikifan
post Fri 24th February 2012, 1:22am
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QUOTE(Ego Trippin' (Part Two) @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:44pm) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 5:07pm) *

QUOTE
The international bankers have always wanted what they called a "balance of power in the world... The Warburgs, the Rothschilds who financed Hitler. German Jews financed Hitler right here in America.... International banks financed Hitler and poor Jews died while big Jews were at the root of what you call the Holocaust....Little Jews died while big Jews made money. Little Jews [were] being turned into soap while big Jews washed themselves with it...."We [blacks] didn't kill one Jew...We were not involved there...That was your white brother, Hitler...How in the hell can you call us anti-Semitic?" _ February 26, 1995: Saviour's Day speech in Chicago: "They [banks] would loan money to both sides in the conflict, `cause they really didn't care who won or who lost. I mean it's hurtful, but a Jew--Rothschild--loaned money to Adolf Hitler. A Jew. Rothschild. Goddamnit you better not open your mouth to call me no anti-Semite! Rothschild and Paul Warburg loaned money. Hitler killed little Jews while Rothschild and Warburg stayed in the finest hotels in Europe. But damn it, if you can't call Rothschild anti-Semitic and Warburg an anti-Semite, then you don't open your mouth against me..


sourced from ADL but quotes are available elsewhere.


What are you implying by bolding that particular sentence?


just pointing out the fact that the jews financed hitler. NOI says so so it MUST be true.

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Ego Trippin' (Part Two)
post Fri 24th February 2012, 3:20am
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 8:22pm) *

QUOTE(Ego Trippin' (Part Two) @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:44pm) *

What are you implying by bolding that particular sentence?


just pointing out the fact that the jews financed hitler. NOI says so so it MUST be true.


You appear to have leapt to a conclusion based not on historical knowledge but on your gut reactions to antisemitic rhetoric. In the '30s, Wall Street financiers liked Hitler not because of their opinions one way or another about his demagoguery, but because the German economy began to show signs of revival after he rose to power. Wall Street was also financing Japanese empire-building during this time period, over the objections of the U.S. government.

These are the kinds of things you learn in college. Speaking of which, if memory serves, you're about 17, right? How's your college application process going?

This post has been edited by Ego Trippin' (Part Two): Fri 24th February 2012, 3:22am
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Emperor
post Fri 24th February 2012, 4:01am
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QUOTE(Ego Trippin' (Part Two) @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:20pm) *

These are the kinds of things you learn in college. Speaking of which, if memory serves, you're about 17, right? How's your college application process going?


Oh the "my education is bigger than your education" argument. Always persuasive.
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Wikifan
post Fri 24th February 2012, 4:31am
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QUOTE
You appear to have leapt to a conclusion based not on historical knowledge but on your gut reactions to antisemitic rhetoric. In the '30s, Wall Street financiers liked Hitler not because of their opinions one way or another about his demagoguery, but because the German economy began to show signs of revival after he rose to power. Wall Street was also financing Japanese empire-building during this time period, over the objections of the U.S. government.


so wall street financiers=jews? LF and other noi trolls are notorious for their rabid antisemitism and fascination with jewish conspiracies. when anyone engages in that kind of verbal diarrhea they lose all credibility.




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Ego Trippin' (Part Two)
post Fri 24th February 2012, 5:03am
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 11:31pm) *

QUOTE
You appear to have leapt to a conclusion based not on historical knowledge but on your gut reactions to antisemitic rhetoric. In the '30s, Wall Street financiers liked Hitler not because of their opinions one way or another about his demagoguery, but because the German economy began to show signs of revival after he rose to power. Wall Street was also financing Japanese empire-building during this time period, over the objections of the U.S. government.


so wall street financiers=jews? LF and other noi trolls are notorious for their rabid antisemitism and fascination with jewish conspiracies. when anyone engages in that kind of verbal diarrhea they lose all credibility.


Not all of them were Jews, of course, but some were. The fundamentally antisemitic premise adopted by the NOI, apparently, is that Jews controlled all of international banking in the 1930s and were able to use that control for their own sinister purposes. We can reject that premise without denying, as I think you did, that some American Jews were involved in financing Nazi Germany. The same goes for Japan, although naturally most people wouldn't find Jewish involvement with that curious, because the Japanese weren't behind the genocide of millions of Jews.

I'm not saying that the NOI has any credibility, but I am saying that there was a kernel of truth to the sentence you bolded. That sentence obviously twisted the truth for its own antisemitic ends.

QUOTE(Emperor @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 11:01pm) *

QUOTE(Ego Trippin' (Part Two) @ Thu 23rd February 2012, 10:20pm) *

These are the kinds of things you learn in college. Speaking of which, if memory serves, you're about 17, right? How's your college application process going?


Oh the "my education is bigger than your education" argument. Always persuasive.


You're right; my first three sentences stood on their own, and that fourth was unnecessarily nasty. My shitty mood brought out my mean streak. I apologize for the dig, Wikifan.

This post has been edited by Ego Trippin' (Part Two): Fri 24th February 2012, 5:05am
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Wikifan
post Fri 24th February 2012, 7:16am
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QUOTE
Not all of them were Jews, of course, but some were. The fundamentally antisemitic premise adopted by the NOI, apparently, is that Jews controlled all of international banking in the 1930s and were able to use that control for their own sinister purposes. We can reject that premise without denying, as I think you did, that some American Jews were involved in financing Nazi Germany. The same goes for Japan, although naturally most people wouldn't find Jewish involvement with that curious, because the Japanese weren't behind the genocide of millions of Jews.


so then what's your beef?

the need to explain all the world's problems and issues are the fault of some mafia-pack of wild jews out making $$$ at our expense is just lazy thinking man. it's not even worth debating.

so NOI has that awesomepossom jew-hatred anthem, in addition to the weird cult worship of louis farrakhan. i dont understand why this appeals to malik.



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