The Wikipedia Review: A forum for discussion and criticism of Wikipedia
Wikipedia Review Op-Ed Pages

Welcome, Guest! ( Log In | Register )

17 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Advisory Council on Project Development
Cedric
post Fri 10th July 2009, 11:17pm
Post #21


General Gato
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,648
Joined: Sun 11th Mar 2007, 5:58pm
From: God's Ain Country
Member No.: 1,116

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



Image Well . . . you know.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
everyking
post Sat 11th July 2009, 12:34am
Post #22


Postmaster
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,368
Joined: Mon 27th Mar 2006, 7:24am
Member No.: 81



This is junk. An advisory council to the ArbCom? While I freely admit that the ArbCom needs advice--and lots of it!--a toothless body working under an incompetent and wrongheaded committee, with its membership decided through "invitations", is not progress. I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--a reforms committee elected by the community itself, which would formulate and present reforms to the community as referendums. Everyone who accepted an "invitation" should resign.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kelly Martin
post Sat 11th July 2009, 12:47am
Post #23


Bring back the guttersnipes!
********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
Joined: Sun 22nd Jun 2008, 4:41am
From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696



QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 10th July 2009, 7:34pm) *
This is junk. An advisory council to the ArbCom? While I freely admit that the ArbCom needs advice--and lots of it!--a toothless body working under an incompetent and wrongheaded committee, with its membership decided through "invitations", is not progress. I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--a reforms committee elected by the community itself, which would formulate and present reforms to the community as referendums. Everyone who accepted an "invitation" should resign.
Didn't get an invitation, did you?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
everyking
post Sat 11th July 2009, 12:56am
Post #24


Postmaster
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,368
Joined: Mon 27th Mar 2006, 7:24am
Member No.: 81



QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sat 11th July 2009, 1:47am) *

QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 10th July 2009, 7:34pm) *
This is junk. An advisory council to the ArbCom? While I freely admit that the ArbCom needs advice--and lots of it!--a toothless body working under an incompetent and wrongheaded committee, with its membership decided through "invitations", is not progress. I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--a reforms committee elected by the community itself, which would formulate and present reforms to the community as referendums. Everyone who accepted an "invitation" should resign.
Didn't get an invitation, did you?

Well, of course I wouldn't get one! I'm a Wikipedia felon, Kelly, as I'm sure you'll recall. With my record, it's a wonder I'm trusted to even fix a typo. laugh.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Sarcasticidealist
post Sat 11th July 2009, 1:01am
Post #25


Head exploded.
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,662
Joined: Tue 22nd Jan 2008, 1:54am
From: Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Member No.: 4,536

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 10th July 2009, 9:34pm) *
I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--a reforms committee elected by the community itself, which would formulate and present reforms to the community as referendums.
That is a better system, but it involves granting powers that do not currently exist (i.e. the power to force a referendum). How do you think Arb Comm's more vociferous critics -- such as, to select an example purely at random, you -- react to Arb Comm creating a committee and giving it powers that nobody else currently has? Do you think there's even the tiniest chance that you'd be running around shrieking about its power grab?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
everyking
post Sat 11th July 2009, 1:15am
Post #26


Postmaster
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,368
Joined: Mon 27th Mar 2006, 7:24am
Member No.: 81



QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Sat 11th July 2009, 2:01am) *

QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 10th July 2009, 9:34pm) *
I proposed a much superior alternative yesterday--a reforms committee elected by the community itself, which would formulate and present reforms to the community as referendums.
That is a better system, but it involves granting powers that do not currently exist (i.e. the power to force a referendum). How do you think Arb Comm's more vociferous critics -- such as, to select an example purely at random, you -- react to Arb Comm creating a committee and giving it powers that nobody else currently has? Do you think there's even the tiniest chance that you'd be running around shrieking about its power grab?


If the ArbCom created such a committee itself, decided its composition, and retained power over its decisions, yes, I suppose so. But if its power was derived from the community and its composition was decided by the community, no.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Cock-up-over-conspiracy
post Sat 11th July 2009, 2:15am
Post #27


Now censored by flckr.com and who else ... ???
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,693
Joined: Sat 6th Dec 2008, 6:08am
Member No.: 9,267



QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Fri 10th July 2009, 8:03pm) *
Surprised this hasn't already been mentioned here, especially since it seems to be composed of 75% WR members.

If this is true, is this just giving them the benefit of all the good thought going on here with none of the pain and embarrassment of reading some of the more funnier or more acutely critical stuff?

If it is an enfranchisement of the spirit of WR, why not recognize it and call it "The Wikipedia Review Council"?

A promotion sideways, like the appointment of a diplomat to some far off region, is always a great way of disarming critics whilst getting back to 'business as usual'.

"Look, we done something. We are never going to credit you. Now leave us alone".

I would underline the need for external - professional - appointments. There are plenty real people of integrity, using their own names, putting their own careers at stake, in the ombudsperson/mediation world. The only way forward would be a clean sweep of the 'Cult of Jimbo' cronies, including Queen Jimbo himself, and the appointment of truly independent, professional and liable parties.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post Sat 11th July 2009, 4:28am
Post #28


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined: Thu 1st Feb 2007, 10:21pm
Member No.: 911



QUOTE(Malleus @ Fri 10th July 2009, 5:06pm) *

QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Fri 10th July 2009, 5:50pm) *
FWIW, I think Kelly (or Greg, for that matter) would actually be quite good at this.

I agree with that too, even though I've clearly upset Greg's 10-year-old daughter by putting a naughty word on the main page. I'm content to sit back and see whether this new initiative can make a difference. I hope that it can.


She's not 10. But, no... you haven't upset her, you silly twit. You've upset me, in that you feel you are a better judge of what is okay for her to be reading about on a tax-advantaged website in a publicly-funded school, than I do.

Believe me -- in the short term, I'm delighted that this crap (humorous as it may be for us adults) is pushed to the front page of Wikipedia, while Jimbo jets around saying that Wikipedia is rightfully used in schools. I hope the Jenna Jameson article is in the queue. Then smotherbox, too. It presents, then, a clear example of how unaware of social mores that Wikipedia's "free culture" leadership is, which then makes it more vulnerable to attack.

At that point, it will be a piece of cake getting a national school policy movement going, to ban Wikipedia outright from public schools.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
sbrown
post Sat 11th July 2009, 5:36am
Post #29


Senior Member
****

Group: Inactive
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu 21st May 2009, 9:14am
Member No.: 11,840



QUOTE(everyking @ Sat 11th July 2009, 2:15am) *

If the ArbCom created such a committee itself, decided its composition, and retained power over its decisions, yes, I suppose so. But if its power was derived from the community and its composition was decided by the community, no.

Im really looking forward to the elections. Theyll make the Arbcom elections look sensible. biggrin.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
MZMcBride
post Sat 11th July 2009, 7:07am
Post #30


Über Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed 25th Mar 2009, 5:02am
Member No.: 10,962

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 11th July 2009, 12:28am) *

Believe me -- in the short term, I'm delighted that this crap (humorous as it may be for us adults) is pushed to the front page of Wikipedia, while Jimbo jets around saying that Wikipedia is rightfully used in schools. I hope the Jenna Jameson article is in the queue. Then smotherbox, too. It presents, then, a clear example of how unaware of social mores that Wikipedia's "free culture" leadership is, which then makes it more vulnerable to attack.

At that point, it will be a piece of cake getting a national school policy movement going, to ban Wikipedia outright from public schools.

You realize they'll just use their phones, right? smile.gif Or use a proxy or ... whatever. This is, of course, if you can even get an encyclopedia banned. Until Wikipedia's usefulness can be replaced by a comparable site, it will continue to dominate, with or without permission from a school board.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Malleus
post Sat 11th July 2009, 1:45pm
Post #31


Fat Cat
******

Group: Contributors
Posts: 1,682
Joined: Mon 27th Oct 2008, 3:48pm
From: United Kingdom
Member No.: 8,716

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 11th July 2009, 5:28am) *

She's not 10. But, no... you haven't upset her, you silly twit. You've upset me, in that you feel you are a better judge of what is okay for her to be reading about on a tax-advantaged website in a publicly-funded school, than I do.

I don't know why you're so surprised you silly twit. I feel that I'm a better judge of many things than you are.

This post has been edited by Malleus: Sat 11th July 2009, 1:45pm
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
toddy
post Sat 11th July 2009, 2:43pm
Post #32


Neophyte


Group: Contributors
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 30th Aug 2008, 12:33am
Member No.: 7,990



Am I the only one who finds the fact that this "Advisory council" is made up of two members of Arbcom? Surely the ony way such a group could be of any use is if it was actually independent? But then, Arbcom wouldn't be able to manipulate the consensus to ensure that nothing that they don't like actually gets recommended, could they?

Another excellent play from Kirill here, using his Arbcom vote to approve a council on which he will serve... frankly I wonder if any of the people in this Politburo have even heard the word "integrity" - although it is clear that it's not change they are after, it's legitimisation from a few outspoken critics of the system. Nice work.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Somey
post Sat 11th July 2009, 3:22pm
Post #33


Can't actually moderate (or even post)
*********

Group: Moderators
Posts: 11,815
Joined: Sat 17th Jun 2006, 7:47pm
From: Dreamland
Member No.: 275



QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Fri 10th July 2009, 9:15pm) *
QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Fri 10th July 2009, 8:03pm) *
url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Advisory_Council_on_Project_Development_convened]Surprised this hasn't already been mentioned here[/url], especially since it seems to be composed of 75% WR members.

If this is true, is this just giving them the benefit of all the good thought going on here with none of the pain and embarrassment of reading some of the more funnier or more acutely critical stuff?

It's really more like 33 percent, not 75 percent, based on the list I'm seeing now. I've never even heard of four of them... Moreover, of the six who have been participating WR members, only Giano and (ex-member) Rootology have ever spent a significant amount of time being blocked or banned. Jennavecia (Lara) probably has the largest WR post count, but she's been known to disagree with the majority here on more than one occasion... hmmm.gif

I doubt anything like this could really going to do much good unless the members can help make technical decisions, i.e., drive the implementation of new software features, changes to the wording of disclaimers and templates, maybe even the UI itself - things of that nature. And it's clearly stated that this group isn't going to have any actual authority.

The whole thing is too vague anyway. If they're just looking to improve the way WP handles disputes, that's fine, but at the risk of sounding overly cynical, I've always believed that the two goals of "editor retention" and "better encyclopedia" are incompatible with each other on Wikipedia, and if they're hoping to change that they're going to need a specific mandate, and yes, outside expertise as well.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kelly Martin
post Sat 11th July 2009, 3:43pm
Post #34


Bring back the guttersnipes!
********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
Joined: Sun 22nd Jun 2008, 4:41am
From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696



QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 11th July 2009, 10:22am) *
The whole thing is too vague anyway. If they're just looking to improve the way WP handles disputes, that's fine, but at the risk of sounding overly cynical, I've always believed that the two goals of "editor retention" and "better encyclopedia" are incompatible with each other on Wikipedia, and if they're hoping to change that they're going to need a specific mandate, and yes, outside expertise as well.
"Editor retention" is vague, and depends on them recognizing that not all Wikipedia "users" are "editors". I don't think they've made this realization yet.

Wikipedia needs to get rid of, or at least restrict the privileges of, many of its users, if it wants to improve either editor retention or encyclopedic quality. I doubt there is any will to do this, however.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Eva Destruction
post Sat 11th July 2009, 4:43pm
Post #35


Fat Cat
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,735
Joined: Sun 30th Sep 2007, 7:22pm
Member No.: 3,301

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sat 11th July 2009, 4:43pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 11th July 2009, 10:22am) *
The whole thing is too vague anyway. If they're just looking to improve the way WP handles disputes, that's fine, but at the risk of sounding overly cynical, I've always believed that the two goals of "editor retention" and "better encyclopedia" are incompatible with each other on Wikipedia, and if they're hoping to change that they're going to need a specific mandate, and yes, outside expertise as well.
"Editor retention" is vague, and depends on them recognizing that not all Wikipedia "users" are "editors". I don't think they've made this realization yet.

Wikipedia needs to get rid of, or at least restrict the privileges of, many of its users, if it wants to improve either editor retention or encyclopedic quality. I doubt there is any will to do this, however.

Amen. "Everyone can edit" and "Best possible information" are both worthy goals, but they're incompatiable. Personally, I think Greg's idea of separate namespaces (a neutral-and-well-written mainspace, and a separate crapspace for all the pet theories, spammers and obscure bands) is a good one if it could ever be made workable.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Sarcasticidealist
post Sat 11th July 2009, 4:48pm
Post #36


Head exploded.
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,662
Joined: Tue 22nd Jan 2008, 1:54am
From: Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Member No.: 4,536

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 10th July 2009, 10:15pm) *
If the ArbCom created such a committee itself, decided its composition, and retained power over its decisions, yes, I suppose so. But if its power was derived from the community and its composition was decided by the community, no.
Well, clearly that's not possible. What if Arb Comm created it itself, decided it's initial composition, but then released it into the wild to have elections and make its own decisions? Because it seems to me that that's about the best you can hope for.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
LaraLove
post Sat 11th July 2009, 7:31pm
Post #37


Wikipedia BLP advocate
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,741
Joined: Mon 28th Jan 2008, 7:53pm
Member No.: 4,627

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



I'm to the point that I want to see change any way it can be brought. So I'm going to give this my best shot. I've put up BLP as the suggested starting topic. Shocker, I know.

I don't know everyone on the list either. Jooperscoopers is a name I haven't seen since my RFA, wherein he fabricated some reasons to oppose me then prophesied that I was, at best, the next Kelly Martin.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Milton Roe
post Sat 11th July 2009, 7:36pm
Post #38


Known alias of J. Random Troll
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined: Thu 28th Feb 2008, 1:03am
Member No.: 5,156

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(Cedric @ Fri 10th July 2009, 4:17pm) *

Image Well . . . you know.

For those of you who missed the joke, those are deck chairs on the Titanic. Had no idea there was a photo of them. Wonderful!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Eva Destruction
post Sat 11th July 2009, 7:56pm
Post #39


Fat Cat
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,735
Joined: Sun 30th Sep 2007, 7:22pm
Member No.: 3,301

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(LaraLove @ Sat 11th July 2009, 8:31pm) *

I'm to the point that I want to see change any way it can be brought. So I'm going to give this my best shot. I've put up BLP as the suggested starting topic. Shocker, I know.

I don't know everyone on the list either. Jooperscoopers is a name I haven't seen since my RFA, wherein he fabricated some reasons to oppose me then prophesied that I was, at best, the next Kelly Martin.

I'm quite taken by your Gallant Defender's reply, though. If "you remind me of Kelly Martin" is really the worst insult he's ever heard, I pray for his sake that he never sets foot in any military or police building.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
NuclearWarfare
post Sat 11th July 2009, 7:56pm
Post #40


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue 23rd Dec 2008, 10:24pm
Member No.: 9,506

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



For those who haven't seen it yet, there is now a RfC up on the group.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

17 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

-   Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st 10 14, 1:32pm