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> The Mike Handel Story
thekohser
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:13pm
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This was a fantastic display of not only Wikipedia's gullible trust in their fellow man, but in their trust that "the system works".

John, I'm curious to know if all of these edits were made from the same IP address, and what have been the consequences on any of the IPs used? Also, how much time and effort did this take you? I would like to see the "news clipping" forgery from the Oxford Times, too. Did you print it, then crumple it up, then smooth it out, then add a bit of sepia tone to the digital snapshot? Durova might be able to give a few pointers on how to make a fresh print-out look like it's from the "olden days".

laugh.gif

Really, this was excellent work -- but, the dismaying fact remains that if it doesn't get picked up by the mainstream press, it will go largely unnoticed. Have you contacted anyone in the media? I will ping my contacts today, on your behalf.

P.S. Looks like it was viewed 4,300 times. Stupendous.

This post has been edited by thekohser: Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:15pm
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bambi
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:18pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 1:32pm) *

QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:57am) *

We thought it might serve as a wakeup call.


You don't know them vewwy well, do you?

Please refer to previous advice about talking to cultists and fundamentalists.

To wit … or not … don't bother.

Jon dry.gif

Yeah, as soon as I posted that bit about the Google cache copy, which asked why Wikipedia doesn't use NOARCHIVE, I then asked myself, "Why do I keep posting extremely reasonable, well-considered suggestions about how Wikipedia handles the search engines? Haven't I learned over the last 4.5 years that it is totally pointless to do this? If I keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result, doesn't that mean that I'm insane?"
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John Limey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:39pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:13pm) *

This was a fantastic display of not only Wikipedia's gullible trust in their fellow man, but in their trust that "the system works".

John, I'm curious to know if all of these edits were made from the same IP address, and what have been the consequences on any of the IPs used? Also, how much time and effort did this take you? I would like to see the "news clipping" forgery from the Oxford Times, too. Did you print it, then crumple it up, then smooth it out, then add a bit of sepia tone to the digital snapshot? Durova might be able to give a few pointers on how to make a fresh print-out look like it's from the "olden days".

laugh.gif

Really, this was excellent work -- but, the dismaying fact remains that if it doesn't get picked up by the mainstream press, it will go largely unnoticed. Have you contacted anyone in the media? I will ping my contacts today, on your behalf.

P.S. Looks like it was viewed 4,300 times. Stupendous.


The forgery was not especially sophisticated. David handled it, and we were both pleased with the results. It's (at least temporarily) on WikiMedia Commons( here). I'm not quite sure what the techniques involved were, but I'll ask.

I tried getting in touch with a few media types, but I have no connections, and no nibbles thus far.

This post has been edited by John Limey: Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:40pm
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A Horse With No Name
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:07pm
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QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:39am) *

I tried getting in touch with a few media types, but I have no connections, and no nibbles thus far.


Not even Cade Metz? Maybe Cade is getting tired of WP -- even the Roger Davies plagiarism dust up didn't rouse Cade from napping.

But, then again, it is not a new story -- for years, articles on WP's unreliable infrastructure have circulated. This is another to add to the pile.

Also, other fraudulent DYKs have been identified before, so this is just an extravagant variation on a well-established trick.
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John Limey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:11pm
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:07pm) *

QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:39am) *

I tried getting in touch with a few media types, but I have no connections, and no nibbles thus far.


Not even Cade Metz? Maybe Cade is getting tired of WP -- even the Roger Davies plagiarism dust up didn't rouse Cade from napping.

But, then again, it is not a new story -- for years, articles on WP's unreliable infrastructure have circulated. This is another to add to the pile.

Also, other fraudulent DYKs have been identified before, so this is just an extravagant variation on a well-established trick.


Yes, there was nothing particularly new here. BLP disasters and fake DYKs are as old as Wikipedia, but this one was particularly bad. I think, in retrospect, that we might have done better at attracting media attention if we had found some reporter and tipped him off before we announced the hoax on the blog, thus allowing the reporter to have the exclusive scoop.
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A Horse With No Name
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:14pm
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QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:57am) *

We thought it might serve as a wakeup call. Judging by the reaction on Wikipedia, it did nothing like that, which is really, truly disappointing.


That is no surprise. The only time there is any stirring is if some lunatic is yelling his head off. Content is not king -- it's all about slapstick and melodrama.


QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:11am) *
BLP disasters and fake DYKs are as old as Wikipedia, but this one was particularly bad. I think, in retrospect, that we might have done better at attracting media attention if we had found some reporter and tipped him off before we announced the hoax on the blog, thus allowing the reporter to have the exclusive scoop.


Seigenthaler was worse because it was a real person. A phony BLP that wins a worthless award is not news, sorry.
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Jon Awbrey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:15pm
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:07am) *

QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:39am) *

I tried getting in touch with a few media types, but I have no connections, and no nibbles thus far.


Not even Cade Metz? Maybe Cade is getting tired of WP — even the Roger Davies plagiarism dust up didn't rouse Cade from napping.

But, then again, it is not a new story — for years, articles on WP's unreliable infrastructure have circulated. This is another to add to the pile.

Also, other fraudulent DYKs have been identified before, so this is just an extravagant variation on a well-established trick.


Not sexy enough for either the Main scream.gif or the BotBoy media —

Carbuncle and Milton's link from Mike Handel to lesbians?

Close, but no cigar …

Jon tongue.gif
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John Limey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:24pm
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Jimmy Wales has now weighed in about this on his talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jim...P_hoax_made_DYK. Some of the things he said were, in my opinion, perfect.

QUOTE

But while this case points to some easy fixes to policy, there's also a deeper and more philosophical question relating to "inclusionism and deletionism" and one reason why as Wikipedia has grown larger and larger, I have become more deletionist. This incident confirms, more clearly than any other that I have seen, something I have been saying for awhile that it is absolutely not possible for us to responsibly have BLPs on marginally notable people. I strongly support that we look at notability policy and tighten it quite severely, especially for BLPs. If a subject isn't notable enough to have reliable sources that are easily checked, then we shouldn't have an article about that person at all. And we absolutely cannot accept negative BLP statements from reliable sources that can't be easily checked.
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Jon Awbrey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:29pm
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QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:24am) *

Jimmy Wales has now weighed in about this on his talk page: User talk:Jimbo Wales#Oh, Look, Radar, Another BLP. Some of the things he said were, in my opinion, perfect.


Woids, Boids.
Cheep, Cheep.

Jon tongue.gif
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John Limey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:39pm
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:14pm) *

QUOTE(John Limey @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:11am) *
BLP disasters and fake DYKs are as old as Wikipedia, but this one was particularly bad. I think, in retrospect, that we might have done better at attracting media attention if we had found some reporter and tipped him off before we announced the hoax on the blog, thus allowing the reporter to have the exclusive scoop.


Seigenthaler was worse because it was a real person. A phony BLP that wins a worthless award is not news, sorry.


To be sure, Seigenthaler was much more significant in that he was real. However, quantity of news coverage generated is not at all proportional to the severity of the BLP incident. The Akcam incident was FAR worse than what happened to Seigenthaler but didn't make it into nearly as many papers. Why? Well perhaps because Seigenthaler was first, but I think it's more likely that it's because Seigenthaler is extremely well-connected in media circles.

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Doc glasgow
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:41pm
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This was a case of "no real animals were hurt in this experiment" - which is good.


But it is only a matter of time before a directly libellous hoax makes DYK. That will hit the press.

Naturally, I don't recommend that breaching experiment to anyone, unless they've got low morals, deep pockets, and good lawyers.

This post has been edited by Doc glasgow: Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:41pm
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A Horse With No Name
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:46pm
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:41am) *

This was a case of "no real animals were hurt in this experiment" - which is good.


But it is only a matter of time before a directly libellous hoax makes DYK. That will hit the press.

Naturally, I don't recommend that breaching experiment to anyone, unless they've got low morals, deep pockets, and good lawyers.


...and IPs that cannot be traced. evilgrin.gif
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SB_Johnny
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:18pm
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I actually think it's interesting that his name account isn't blocked "on principle", which is either (1) a positive sign that some lessons were learned from Greg's breach, (2) a sign that Durova doesn't have a personal grudge against him yet (since he's not Greg), or (3) they haven't gotten around to it yet.

Especially interesting because they seem rather block-happy the past week or two otherwise.
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Milton Roe
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:07pm
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QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:30am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:38am) *

QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 9:09pm) *

Excellent work, but I would have given you extra points if you had titled your blog posting "Burning Mike Handel at both ends"...

pinch.gif

It sheds a lovely light! biggrin.gif

Hoo!

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/20233

Good thing you dont edit on WQ, Prof. Roe! Or do you?

And Jon Awbrey gave this link and he didnt notice either.

I'm thinking about editing on WQ as "Quillercastingcouch." My main function being to audition Baxter socks, who are easily detectable by their predilection to correct poetry quotes. The purpose being to see if they can play WR regulars, without screwing up. So far, not doing so well, but then you never know when you'll run across a gem.

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Jon Awbrey
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:20pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 1:07pm) *

QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:30am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:38am) *

QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 9:09pm) *

Excellent work, but I would have given you extra points if you had titled your blog posting "Burning Mike Handel at both ends" &hellip;


pinch.gif

It sheds a lovely light! biggrin.gif


Hoo!

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/20233

Good thing you dont edit on WQ, Prof. Roe! Or do you?

And Jon Awbrey gave this link and he didnt notice either.


I'm thinking about editing on WQ as "Quillercastingcouch". My main function being to audition Baxter socks, who are easily detectable by their predilection to correct poetry quotes. The purpose being to see if they can play WR regulars, without screwing up. So far, not doing so well, but then you never know when you'll run across a gem.


Any more of this wiki-pettiness and I'll revoke both of yer poet's' liscencseseses.

Jon tongue.gif
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Apathetic
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:55pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 12:18pm) *

(2) a sign that Durova doesn't have a personal grudge against him yet (since he's not Greg)


you know that Durova isn't an admin anymore, right?
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SB_Johnny
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:56pm
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QUOTE(Apathetic @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 1:55pm) *

QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 12:18pm) *

(2) a sign that Durova doesn't have a personal grudge against him yet (since he's not Greg)

you know that Durova isn't an admin anymore, right?

Strings to pull are often as effective as buttons to push. rolleyes.gif
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NuclearWarfare
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 7:51pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:18pm) *

I actually think it's interesting that his name account isn't blocked "on principle", which is either (1) a positive sign that some lessons were learned from Greg's breach, (2) a sign that Durova doesn't have a personal grudge against him yet (since he's not Greg), or (3) they haven't gotten around to it yet.

Especially interesting because they seem rather block-happy the past week or two otherwise.


I don't know if David is technically banned or not, but I really don't care. And I think (hope?) most administrators are intelligent enough to know that a block would not accomplish anything here.
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Apathetic
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 8:03pm
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QUOTE(NuclearWarfare @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 2:51pm) *

QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:18pm) *

I actually think it's interesting that his name account isn't blocked "on principle", which is either (1) a positive sign that some lessons were learned from Greg's breach, (2) a sign that Durova doesn't have a personal grudge against him yet (since he's not Greg), or (3) they haven't gotten around to it yet.

Especially interesting because they seem rather block-happy the past week or two otherwise.


I don't know if David is technically banned or not, but I really don't care. And I think (hope?) most administrators are intelligent enough to know that a block would not accomplish anything here.


I blocked UTYVB8 as another cookie cutter sock, but I figured the named account could remain. Also as he assured there would be no more hoaxes...
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Trick cyclist
post Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:52pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:07pm) *

I'm thinking about editing on WQ as "Quillercastingcouch." ... The purpose being to see if they can play WR regulars, without screwing up.

A fascinating technique that I must copy. When youre caught with your pants (in the US sense and still more the British sense) down use lots of irrelevances and smoke and mirrors to hide the fact. Milton of course plays the part of the WR regular to perfection. Without screwing up? If he did that he wouldn't be such a convincing WR regular.
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