SlimVirgin knows The True Policy Options

[EternalIdealist]

Original research talk page

I wonder how convincing the sekret evidence will be that Dhaluza, Vassyana and FullStop are sockpuppet-stalker-rapist-vandal-trolls. They have opposed the mighty Linda Sarah and all the evil truth personal attacks must end! What I find really intriguing is SlimVirgin's Usual Toadies throwing up their hands and refusing to take sides. Perhaps her Evil Claw of Wikipedia Control is running low on batteries?

[dogbiscuit]

Original research talk page

I wonder how convincing the sekret evidence will be that Dhaluza, Vassyana and FullStop are sockpuppet-stalker-rapist-vandal-trolls. They have opposed the mighty Linda Sarah and all the evil truth personal attacks must end! What I find really intriguing is SlimVirgin's Usual Toadies throwing up their hands and refusing to take sides. Perhaps her Evil Claw of Wikipedia Control is running low on batteries?

It is even better because originally, if I recall correctly, Vassyana was on the other side. He was persuaded that source typing, as defined, was nonsensical. I think he has had his Wipiphany.

Slim is back to full strength now: the accusation of personal attacks when calling other people dishonest, the blind repeating over and over again of the "obvious" that you must be idiotic not to understand, the avoidance of question answering by asking other questions that she has no interest in, and the unilateral editing of the policy page (because she is right) while demanding consensus (i.e. unanimity in the Slim dictionary) for any other changes that she disagrees with.

All over something that really is not important if you really go with the fundamental concept of NOR: "don't make stuff up."

This post has been edited by dogbiscuit:

[EternalIdealist]

Original research talk page

I wonder how convincing the sekret evidence will be that Dhaluza, Vassyana and FullStop are sockpuppet-stalker-rapist-vandal-trolls. They have opposed the mighty Linda Sarah and all the evil truth personal attacks must end! What I find really intriguing is SlimVirgin's Usual Toadies throwing up their hands and refusing to take sides. Perhaps her Evil Claw of Wikipedia Control is running low on batteries?

It is even better because originally, if I recall correctly, Vassyana was on the other side. He was persuaded that source typing, as defined, was nonsensical. I think he has had his Wipiphany.

Slim is back to full strength now: the accusation of personal attacks when calling other people dishonest, the blind repeating over and over again of the "obvious" that you must be idiotic not to understand, the avoidance of question answering by asking other questions that she has no interest in, and the unilateral editing of the policy page (because she is right) while demanding consensus (i.e. unanimity in the Slim dictionary) for any other changes that she disagrees with.

All over something that really is not important if you really go with the fundamental concept of NOR: "don't make stuff up."

I am trying to catch up on all the original research chatter but wow is there a lot to sort through. Cogden's RFC seems to be of some interest to the general topic.Cogden's RFC

[Moulton]

Dollars to donuts this dispute revolves around the issue of whether WP has a functional guideline for accuracy, excellence and ethics in crafting encyclopedic articles worthy of a responsible publication.

[Derktar]

Original research talk page

I wonder how convincing the sekret evidence will be that Dhaluza, Vassyana and FullStop are sockpuppet-stalker-rapist-vandal-trolls. They have opposed the mighty Linda Sarah and all the evil truth personal attacks must end! What I find really intriguing is SlimVirgin's Usual Toadies throwing up their hands and refusing to take sides. Perhaps her Evil Claw of Wikipedia Control is running low on batteries?

Welcome to the Review EternalIdealist!

As for the OR "policy" page, It's probably changed so much since I last looked at it months ago I could probably barely recognize it.

[Jonny Cache]

Diagnostic Pre-Test —

Q1. What is the biggest piece of Original Research in the (W)hole of Wikipedia?

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

[EternalIdealist]

Crum375 admits that The Cabal dictates policy because they know better than stupid peons. Admission there IS a Cabal. Has anyone run in to other open admissions about The Cabal? How common is it for them to be so open about that kind of control?

SlimVirgin is going to great lengths to demonize Vassyana so the current shit on the original research talk page seems like a good example of her public harassment tactics.

I looked over the history of original research policy and it is a nasty mess. It seems like every decent soul interested in finding middle ground or better terms or clarifying the language used in that whole primary secondary tertiary mess is eventually driven away by the actions of a select few. Those few like SlimVirgin seem to have a good understanding of when and how to interrupt the page to most effectively derail anything they dislike. They intimately know certain aspects of psychology and social engineering on top of their obvious command of quirks in Wikipedia social interactions.

This is curious and makes me wonder if Vassyana was privately intimidated into giving up. Vassyana gives up on policy. I wonder how long it will be before he is hounded off the entire thing. Opposing SlimVirgin so plainly is sure to have marked Dhaluza and Vassyana as trolls that need to be removed from the site unless I completely missed something.

[dogbiscuit]

Crum375 admits that The Cabal dictates policy because they know better than stupid peons. Admission there IS a Cabal. Has anyone run in to other open admissions about The Cabal? How common is it for them to be so open about that kind of control?

SlimVirgin is going to great lengths to demonize Vassyana so the current shit on the original research talk page seems like a good example of her public harassment tactics.

I looked over the history of original research policy and it is a nasty mess. It seems like every decent soul interested in finding middle ground or better terms or clarifying the language used in that whole primary secondary tertiary mess is eventually driven away by the actions of a select few. Those few like SlimVirgin seem to have a good understanding of when and how to interrupt the page to most effectively derail anything they dislike. They intimately know certain aspects of psychology and social engineering on top of their obvious command of quirks in Wikipedia social interactions.

This is curious and makes me wonder if Vassyana was privately intimidated into giving up. Vassyana gives up on policy. I wonder how long it will be before he is hounded off the entire thing. Opposing SlimVirgin so plainly is sure to have marked Dhaluza and Vassyana as trolls that need to be removed from the site unless I completely missed something.

I think your interpretation of Crum's statement slightly dramatises what he says, which is deliberately ambiguous (a typical Crum technique to which his response would be "I don't see how you could interpret it that way, stupid boy"), though I do not disagree. I thought the original statement of Slim was far more worrying:

This is a core content policy, not an article, and the presumption is in favor of stability, not change. From now on, unless I actively agree with one of your changes, please take my silence to mean that I disagree, and my revert to mean that I disagree strongly. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 18:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, I am a special user with veto over these pages. Absolutely atrocious behaviour... and absolutely typical that meatpuppet Crum is straight in there with the backup plan to give the illusion of consensus. It is a technique she has used before (for example on Factory Farming), to paraphrase: "You are arguing with me, I am right, therefore I refuse to continue to discuss this on the talk page with you; saying I am wrong is a personal attack and therefore I no longer have to abide by any rules as I see fit."

The most sensible thing is to bail out of the NOR debate, refuse to acknowledge that NOR has any consensus and edit under IAR to one's own reasonable interpretation of sound policy.

[Moulton]

She'll find a way to block or silence her adversaries, no matter what tactic they use.

Keep in mind that WP operates like a character-driven drama, where some characters behave like Agent Smith.

(IMG:http://www.andy.mallett.net/asylum/neo_interrogation.jpg)
Neo, in the Interrogation Room in Matrix, in the
scene where Agent Smith stitches Neo's mouth shut.

[EternalIdealist]

I think your interpretation of Crum's statement slightly dramatises what he says, which is deliberately ambiguous (a typical Crum technique to which his response would be "I don't see how you could interpret it that way, stupid boy"), though I do not disagree. I thought the original statement of Slim was far more worrying:

This is a core content policy, not an article, and the presumption is in favor of stability, not change. From now on, unless I actively agree with one of your changes, please take my silence to mean that I disagree, and my revert to mean that I disagree strongly. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 18:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, I am a special user with veto over these pages. Absolutely atrocious behaviour... and absolutely typical that meatpuppet Crum is straight in there with the backup plan to give the illusion of consensus. It is a technique she has used before (for example on Factory Farming), to paraphrase: "You are arguing with me, I am right, therefore I refuse to continue to discuss this on the talk page with you; saying I am wrong is a personal attack and therefore I no longer have to abide by any rules as I see fit."

The most sensible thing is to bail out of the NOR debate, refuse to acknowledge that NOR has any consensus and edit under IAR to one's own reasonable interpretation of sound policy.

It was the "Consensus is achieved by getting the editors who have historically contributed to a given policy to indicate their approval in an active manner. If such an editor reverts, it is a clear sign of no consensus." that lead me to think of The Cabal. It read to me that a small handful of clique insiders have the final word on policies everyone else be damned.

I totally missed that comment by SlimVirgin. Crum375 is a meatpuppet for SlimVirgin or is he just another devoted suckup?

If Dhaluza, Fullstop or any of the other people opposing SlimVirgin just back out and go on their merry way ain't it likely that SlimVirgin's posse will wikistalk those people and hound the hell out of them when they edit "counter to policy"? From what I have read that would be a common tactic of theirs.

She'll find a way to block or silence her adversaries, no matter what tactic they use.

Keep in mind that WP operates like a character-driven drama, where some characters behave like Agent Smith.

Is this a broader problem in Wikipedia or is it limited to a small handful of influential characters?

[dogbiscuit]

I totally missed that comment by SlimVirgin. Crum375 is a meatpuppet for SlimVirgin or is he just another devoted suckup?

Crum's modus operandi is well established. Some say s/he might be a sock, but it is clear there is at least off-wiki communication to elicit support - no sign for ages, then an argument blows up and backup arrives within minutes. Well versed in 3RR-avoiding tag teaming.

If Dhaluza, Fullstop or any of the other people opposing SlimVirgin just back out and go on their merry way ain't it likely that SlimVirgin's posse will wikistalk those people and hound the hell out of them when they edit "counter to policy"? From what I have read that would be a common tactic of theirs.

I'm not sure they have the time, they don't tend to stalk explicitly, unlike Guy who gets a zeal for investigating edits to prove his point.

Is this a broader problem in Wikipedia or is it limited to a small handful of influential characters?

There are little mini-series in various areas of interest where you start to recognise the main players: its a bit like various editions of Star Trek where the plot is similar as are the characters.

However, Slim has a special history with regards to policy, and there are a relatively few people who patrol policy to ensure their perception of consensus stays put. As an example, take a look at the response when someone on-side makes a change to policy: no stability queries, its all "what a good change", "go, go". The current change being mooted on synthesis has been pointed out many a time as a useful change, but if your face does not fit, simply proposing change will get you hounded out, even if the suggestion is uncontroversial.

This post has been edited by dogbiscuit:

[Moulton]

Totem and Taboo

She'll find a way to block or silence her adversaries, no matter what tactic they use.

Keep in mind that WP operates like a character-driven drama, where some characters behave like Agent Smith.

Is this a broader problem in Wikipedia or is it limited to a small handful of influential characters?

I saw the same tactic being widely used, trickle down, to subordinate sub-cabals in the WP dominance hierarchy.

[jorge]

Crum's modus operandi is well established. Some say s/he might be a sock, but it is clear there is at least off-wiki communication to elicit support - no sign for ages, then an argument blows up and backup arrives within minutes. Well versed in 3RR-avoiding tag teaming.

My and Wordbomb's analysis suggest it is extremely unlikely that the Crum and SlimVirgin accounts are being operated from separate computers.

[Jonny Cache]

Crum375 admits that The Cabal dictates policy because they know better than stupid peons. Admission there IS a Cabal. Has anyone run in to other open admissions about The Cabal? How common is it for them to be so open about that kind of control?

SlimVirgin is going to great lengths to demonize Vassyana so the current shit on the original research talk page seems like a good example of her public harassment tactics.

I looked over the history of original research policy and it is a nasty mess. It seems like every decent soul interested in finding middle ground or better terms or clarifying the language used in that whole primary secondary tertiary mess is eventually driven away by the actions of a select few. Those few like SlimVirgin seem to have a good understanding of when and how to interrupt the page to most effectively derail anything they dislike. They intimately know certain aspects of psychology and social engineering on top of their obvious command of quirks in Wikipedia social interactions.

This is curious and makes me wonder if Vassyana was privately intimidated into giving up. Vassyana gives up on policy. I wonder how long it will be before he is hounded off the entire thing. Opposing SlimVirgin so plainly is sure to have marked Dhaluza and Vassyana as trolls that need to be removed from the site unless I completely missed something.

There's a well-known email post by Jimbo that amounts to a Declaration of Insouciance (WP:We Don't Give A Damn — We Don't Have To) for the Wikipedia Cabal. It's probably the last time that Jimbo ever told the truth about anything of substance related to Wikipedia. I'm sure that there are at least a couple of copies of it around here somewhere.

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

[Amarkov]

So SlimVirgin has declared that she's special and gets to dictate what the true policy is. Is that surprising?

[SenseMaker]

I looked over the history of original research policy and it is a nasty mess. It seems like every decent soul interested in finding middle ground or better terms or clarifying the language used in that whole primary secondary tertiary mess is eventually driven away by the actions of a select few. Those few like SlimVirgin seem to have a good understanding of when and how to interrupt the page to most effectively derail anything they dislike. They intimately know certain aspects of psychology and social engineering on top of their obvious command of quirks in Wikipedia social interactions.

This is curious and makes me wonder if Vassyana was privately intimidated into giving up. Vassyana gives up on policy. I wonder how long it will be before he is hounded off the entire thing. Opposing SlimVirgin so plainly is sure to have marked Dhaluza and Vassyana as trolls that need to be removed from the site unless I completely missed something.

You display a very good understanding of the dynamics around SlimVirgin. I understand SlimVirgin almost exactly the way you appear to. I can also add that SlimVirgin doesn't act out of malice on her part, but rather I believe that she is what one would calls a "borderling personality" (look it up.) She has "control issues" and gets a lot of psychological satisfaction by being in "control" of things she believes are important on Wikipedia. Of course she does have some political positions, but you can analyse these separately from her "control" issues. If you can figure out a way to let SlimVirgin feel in control and that you highly respect her and you ask her for permission, you can then make the changes you desire. It should be completely unnecessary to pander towards a borderline character like SlimVirgin, but she has established a domain of "control" on Wikipedia and thus that is what you have to do.

I will repeat: swallow your ego when dealing with SlimVirgin and be sure to constantly compliment her and only make suggestions and try to convince her that the changes in question are her idea.

Of course, just me saying this on this board will fuck with SlimVirgin as she will often respond by making it even harder to figure her out. Just remember that SlimVirgin wants to be in control, her ego and self-worth depends on it. She is a very fragile women who overcompensates.

[Moulton]

Does it feel as if one is "walking on eggshells" when dealing with her?

[Jonny Cache]

«We are all frail»

But don't be fooled by her studied act —

SlimVirgin is about as fragile as a Mack Truck.

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:

[SenseMaker]

«We are all frail»

But don't be fooled by her studied act —

SlimVirgin is about as fragile as a Mack Truck.

I would put money on that you are wrong. I think that I understand her much better than you.

SlimVirgin is very fragile. Let me explain myself better...

I don't mean "fragile" in the stereotypical female sense that she will break down and cry but rather she has a tendency to exhibit unstable behavior under stress and that she gets stressed when she thinks she is losing control over arbitrary Wikipedia topics that she apparently values. SlimVirgin, when she feels that she is losing control, stops acting rationally. She loses it and starts being more aggressive and resorting to transparent but effective manipulation tactics. Pushed farther she starts to exhibit manic / pseudo-psychotic features such as not requiring any sleep (i.e. mania), and reactionary paranoid thinking (i.e. psychosis.)

As an observer or victim of SlimVirgin, this can appear to be extreme manipulation by someone with super human endurance bent on evil, but I am positive that SlimVirgin believes the paranoid theories that she doles out (at least when she is in the moment), and acts this way not because any logical reason but rather because of her dysfunctional psychological make-up. Once the moment of stress passes and SlimVirgin regains the control that she needs, she regains her composure (i.e. the paranoia and mania receeds.) Although she remembers the paranoia and believes it even when she isn't in an immediate stress situation and spends a lot of energy to build up her power to deal with those who threaten her control (i.e. mental well-being).

SlimVirgin also has a low degree of self-worth. This is why she can't often admit to being wrong, especially in directly confrontational situations, because her self-esteem is fragile and easily threatened. If SlimVirgin only cared about making significant contributions to Wikipedia or biasing its coverage, she could have gone about it much more effectively but it wouldn't have met as effectively her unique psychological needs. It is because of her long-term editing strategy (or lack there of) that I don't think that is evil, rather she is fragile/damaged.

Make no mistake, the above description is of someone who is very fragile. I am a strong advocate of the position that SlimVirgin is not well and is as a result quite fragile. Everything about SlimVirgin that I have read supports an interpretation that she is unstable and has control issues.

I do pitty SlimVirgin as a person. She obviously uses Wikipedia as an escape from reality where she can maintain a sense of the control and peer respect for her talents that she so obviously craves. SlimVirgin's borderline personality is also less apparent through the online medium thus on Wikipedia this doesn't hurt her as much as it probably has in her previous face-to-face relationships.

This post has been edited by SenseMaker:

[jorge]

«We are all frail»

But don't be fooled by her studied act —

SlimVirgin is about as fragile as a Mack Truck.

I would put money on that you are wrong. I think that I understand her much better than you.

SlimVirgin is very fragile. Let me explain myself better...

I don't mean "fragile" in the stereotypical female sense that she will break down and cry but rather she has a tendency to exhibit unstable behavior under stress and that she gets stressed when she thinks she is losing control over arbitrary Wikipedia topics that she apparently values. SlimVirgin, when she feels that she is losing control, stops acting rationally. She loses it and starts being more aggressive and resorting to transparent but effective manipulation tactics. Pushed farther she starts to exhibit manic / pseudo-psychotic features such as not requiring any sleep (i.e. mania), and reactionary paranoid thinking (i.e. psychosis.)

As an observer or victim of SlimVirgin, this can appear to be extreme manipulation by someone with super human endurance bent on evil, but I am positive that SlimVirgin believes the paranoid theories that she doles out (at least when she is in the moment), and acts this way not because any logical reason but rather because of her dysfunctional psychological make-up. Once the moment of stress passes and SlimVirgin regains the control that she needs, she regains her composure (i.e. the paranoia and mania receeds.)

Make no mistake, the above description is of someone who is very fragile. I am a strong advocate of the position that SlimVirgin is not well and is as a result quite fragile. Everything about SlimVirgin that I have read supports an interpretation that she is unstable and has control issues.

I bet she's having a good laugh at this post.