Everybody Draw Mohammed Day, I'm shocked, shocked to find drama on Wikipedia Options

[Eva Destruction]

Three-to-one-on that this argument results in (1) someone being blocked, (2) someone saying "do you know who I am?", (3) someone whining on Jimmy Wales's talkpage and/or (4) a mention in the Register. You heard it here first.

[Ottava]

For laughs, I hope people merely take older (PD) images (hopefully very famous) and merely claim them as a depiction of Mohammad. The less likely the better. By technicality, the Muslims who get angry over it should still be angry as merely labeling someone as the prophet would be enough since we don't actually know what he looks like (and could look like Henry VIII in full royal gown).

By the way, Gatoclass would probably only whine and is not likely to go to Jimbo.

[Eva Destruction]

By technicality, the Muslims who get angry over it should still be angry as merely labeling someone as the prophet would be enough since we don't actually know what he looks like (and could look like Henry VIII in full royal gown).

Uh - we know exactly what he looked like, since his son-in-law helpfully left a description:

[Muhammad] is neither too short nor too tall. His hair is neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long hair growing from neck to navel. He has long eye-lashes, close eye-brows, smooth and shining fore-head and a long space between his shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him

[Ottava]

* [Muhammad] is neither too short nor too tall. - Rather vague.
* His hair is neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. - Also vague and veriable
* He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. -Any black and white image should accommodate this (and large skull? whatever that means)
* His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. - He has some weight to him, perfect for Henry VIII
* He has long hair growing from neck to navel. - Why would his nephew describe his bare chest? Creeepppyyy.
* He has long eye-lashes, close eye-brows, smooth and shining fore-head and a long space between his shoulders. - Whatever this means.
* When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him - I doubt we'd depict him walking.


See, not too hard to apply to others.

[Moulton]

Well, at least he doesn't look like a sheeple, a salmon, a centaur, or a killer pooch.

[Ottava]

Well, at least he doesn't look like a sheeple, a salmon, a centaur, or a killer pooch.

Sheeples are adorable!

[HRIP7]

Three-to-one-on that this argument results in (1) someone being blocked, (2) someone saying "do you know who I am?", (3) someone whining on Jimmy Wales's talkpage and/or (4) a mention in the Register. You heard it here first.

You're probably right. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) There is also a fair chance the word "wiki-hounding" might be used at some point in the future, in reference to anyone that disagrees more than once with Cirt. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/evilgrin.gif)

That aside, is it a good hook/article for the main page?

[GlassBeadGame]

For laughs, I hope people merely take older (PD) images (hopefully very famous) and merely claim them as a depiction of Mohammad. The less likely the better. By technicality, the Muslims who get angry over it should still be angry as merely labeling someone as the prophet would be enough since we don't actually know what he looks like (and could look like Henry VIII in full royal gown).

By the way, Gatoclass would probably only whine and is not likely to go to Jimbo.

For laughs you want to use Free Kulture to give offense, spread ill will and intolerance. Sounds about right both for you and Free Kulture.

[Eva Destruction]

That aside, is it a good hook/article for the main page?

No; quite aside from the recentism problem—in six weeks time, nobody will care about this event—it's just plain boring. A "did you know" section ought to at least pay lip service to the idea of "wow, I didn't know that!", not "of course I didn't know that because nobody except those directly involved gives two fucks".

[Web Fred]

Sounds to me that in reality the big M is in a witness protection program.

[HRIP7]

Ah, the obsequious thanks. I guess that's how you make friends and allies in Wikiland.

Let's see if this will develop into full-fledged persecution of Gatoclass. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif)

[gomi]

Uh - we know exactly what he looked like, since his son-in-law helpfully left a description:

[Muhammad] is neither too short nor too tall. His hair is neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long hair growing from neck to navel. He has long eye-lashes, close eye-brows, smooth and shining fore-head and a long space between his shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him

That sounds just like this guy:
(IMG:http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7461/mrnaturaljustpassinthru.jpg)

[Ottava]

Uh - we know exactly what he looked like, since his son-in-law helpfully left a description:

[Muhammad] is neither too short nor too tall. His hair is neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long hair growing from neck to navel. He has long eye-lashes, close eye-brows, smooth and shining fore-head and a long space between his shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him

That sounds just like this guy:

OMG! Infidel!

[HRIP7]

Three-to-one-on that this argument results in (1) someone being blocked, (2) someone saying "do you know who I am?", (3) someone whining on Jimmy Wales's talkpage and/or (4) a mention in the Register. You heard it here first.

You're probably right. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) There is also a fair chance the word "wiki-hounding" might be used at some point in the future, in reference to anyone that disagrees more than once with Cirt. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/evilgrin.gif)

Bingo.

[anthony]

For laughs, I hope people merely take older (PD) images (hopefully very famous) and merely claim them as a depiction of Mohammad.

Muhammad, at age 12, naked:

(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Stick_Figure.svg/200px-Stick_Figure.svg.png)

Oh shit. Now Larry Sanger's going to report me to the FBI!

[Ottava]

Oh shit. Now Larry Sanger's going to report me to the FBI!

Oh! Two for the price of one. Nice. : D Quick, upload it to Commons!

This post has been edited by Ottava:

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Sheeples are adorable!

Not as adorable as peepshi.

[Ottava]

Sheeples are adorable!

Not as adorable as peepshi.

OMG. That needs to have an article page.

[dtobias]

All religion is superstitious nonsense.

If an individual wants to believe it, it's his/her own business; however, when people try to censor or restrict others on the grounds of their particular brand of superstition, they become oppressors.

[Moulton]

I would go farther than Dan, to point out that religions are not the only variety of belief systems that people adopt on faith, without regard for the diligent epistemology that would confirm or refute the scientific accuracy of the beliefs in question.

It is often noted, for example, that Wikipedia is a cult which is not exactly a religion, but neither is it a well-grounded system of beliefs (or philosophical principles) and associated derivative practices.

The anachronistic and dysfunctional governance model of Wikipedia is a notable example of a failed system of beliefs and derivative practices.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

I would go farther than Dan, to point out that religions are not the only variety of belief systems that people adopt on faith, without regard for the diligent epistemology that would confirm or refute the scientific accuracy of the beliefs in question.

{{fact}}

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

[Kwork]

Ah, the obsequious thanks. I guess that's how you make friends and allies in Wikiland.

Let's see if this will develop into full-fledged persecution of Gatoclass. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif)

I think that I am fairly familiar with Wikipedia and its problems, but the point of this discussion is lost on me. Could someone explain what it is that makes Cirt any worse than any other administrator (Gatoclass for example), or why Pieter Kuiper is any better than any other user who is involved on one side in Wikipedia's I/P disputes?

[thekohser]

All religion is superstitious nonsense.

I understand your perspective, Dan. But I, for one, subscribe to the values of learning, understanding, and applying the wisdom of religious teachings to our daily lives.

When it comes to Wikipediots, I really suck at it. But... in other areas, it is a help to me.

[Moulton]

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

Indeed I am not. But could you say more about his role in promoting diligent epistemology of arbitrary beliefs systems (including scientific beliefs, religious beliefs, secular political beliefs, and popular cultural beliefs)?

[GlassBeadGame]

OK here it comes...

Obviously the point of this "protest" (imagine rich white people protesting the beliefs of a hard pressed and often maligned minority in the heart of the rich white peoples very own society) is to mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad. The use of images that could not possibly be Mohammad is suppose to disarm Muslim concerns. Maybe it does. But what remains is the insensitivity that motivated the campaign. Muslims don't deserve yet another slap in the face.

Once again Wikipedia, the Wikipedians on WR and even some WRers who cannot fairly be called Wikipedians join in the mockery. Once again the most import value is our own self expression. Once again someone else has to bare the burden of our entitlement.

Speak Truth to Power.
Speak Trash to the Powerless.

[Ottava]

OK here it comes...

Obviously the point of this "protest" (imagine rich white people protesting the beliefs of a hard pressed and often maligned minority in the heart of the rich white peoples very own society) is to mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad. The use of images that could not possibly be Mohammad is suppose to disarm Muslim concerns. Maybe it does. But what remains is the insensitivity that motivated the campaign. Muslims don't deserve yet another slap in the face.

Once again Wikipedia, the Wikipedians on WR and even some WRers who cannot fairly be called Wikipedians join in the mockery. Once again the most import value is our own self expression. Once again someone else has to bare the burden of our entitlement.

Speak Truth to Power.
Speak Trash to the Powerless.

I don't really think a group of over 1 billion people are a "minority" or that people who have the ability to wage war all over the Middle East and fly three planes into US buildings are powerless.

But thanks for trolling.

[GlassBeadGame]

OK here it comes...

Obviously the point of this "protest" (imagine rich white people protesting the beliefs of a hard pressed and often maligned minority in the heart of the rich white peoples very own society) is to mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad. The use of images that could not possibly be Mohammad is suppose to disarm Muslim concerns. Maybe it does. But what remains is the insensitivity that motivated the campaign. Muslims don't deserve yet another slap in the face.

Once again Wikipedia, the Wikipedians on WR and even some WRers who cannot fairly be called Wikipedians join in the mockery. Once again the most import value is our own self expression. Once again someone else has to bare the burden of our entitlement.

Speak Truth to Power.
Speak Trash to the Powerless.

I don't really think a group of over 1 billion people are a "minority" or that people who have the ability to wage war all over the Middle East and fly three planes into US buildings are powerless.

But thanks for trolling.

Well if your so brave go into the slums of Cairo with your "protest."

[anthony]

Obviously the point of this "protest"...is to mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad.

Well, yeah, obviously.

[Moulton]

Obviously the point of this "protest"...is to mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad.

Well, yeah, obviously.

But is it trolling?

[Ottava]

I don't really think a group of over 1 billion people are a "minority" or that people who have the ability to wage war all over the Middle East and fly three planes into US buildings are powerless.

But thanks for trolling.

Well if your so brave go into the slums of Cairo with your "protest."

And now you just proved that they do have power across the world and would seek violence against me, verifying that your previous comments were trolling.

[GlassBeadGame]

I don't really think a group of over 1 billion people are a "minority" or that people who have the ability to wage war all over the Middle East and fly three planes into US buildings are powerless.

But thanks for trolling.

Well if your so brave go into the slums of Cairo with your "protest."

And now you just proved that they do have power across the world and would seek violence against me, verifying that your previous comments were trolling.

What an asshole you are to invoke 9/11.

[thekohser]

I don't really think a group of over 1 billion people are a "minority" or that people who have the ability to wage war all over the Middle East and fly three planes into US buildings are powerless.

I've always thought that projecting the actions of an Al Qaeda extremist group onto the lot of a billion believers would be similar to saying that a Ku Klux Klan rally represents the beliefs of all Christians.

Way to go, Ottava.

[Kwork]

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

Indeed I am not. But could you say more about his role in promoting diligent epistemology of arbitrary beliefs systems (including scientific beliefs, religious beliefs, secular political beliefs, and popular cultural beliefs)?

Islam may be the world's largest religion, and is certainly one of the largest. Apparently1.3-1.5 billion according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Some of Islamic countries are very wealthy also. Why do you think that is "Speaking Trash to the Powerless"?

[GlassBeadGame]

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

Indeed I am not. But could you say more about his role in promoting diligent epistemology of arbitrary beliefs systems (including scientific beliefs, religious beliefs, secular political beliefs, and popular cultural beliefs)?

Islam may be the world's largest religion, and is certainly one of the largest. Apparently1.3-1.5 billion according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Some of Islamic countries are very wealthy also. Why do you think that is "Speaking Trash to the Powerless"?

I live in America. More than 99% of the users of this site and en.WP are from the the English speaking world and Europe. Muslims are a small and hard pressed minority in our society. They are easy to pick on and vilify. Almost no one will speak up if you do. I'm speaking up for my neighbors and countrymen who are Muslims.

[A Horse With No Name]

I've always thought that projecting the actions of an Al Qaeda extremist group onto the lot of a billion believers would be similar to saying that a Ku Klux Klan rally represents the beliefs of all Christians.

And by extension, that is like saying that Arbcom is representative of the Wikipedia community -- puerile, hypocritical, self-important, ill-equipped to handle editorial duties, unfit for managerial...

Oh, wait...that wasn't a good example. Hmmm.... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

[Ottava]

I live in America.

And if you weren't so ignorant you would realize that the world is more than America. Stop trolling already. People are tired of it.

[GlassBeadGame]

I live in America.

And if you weren't so ignorant you would realize that the world is more than America. Stop trolling already. People are tired of it.

Weak. I know you have a whole world of Muslims to hate.

[A Horse With No Name]

I live in America.

Me too. I like to live in America, okay by me in America...

[Kwork]

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

Indeed I am not. But could you say more about his role in promoting diligent epistemology of arbitrary beliefs systems (including scientific beliefs, religious beliefs, secular political beliefs, and popular cultural beliefs)?

Islam may be the world's largest religion, and is certainly one of the largest. Apparently1.3-1.5 billion according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Some of Islamic countries are very wealthy also. Why do you think that is "Speaking Trash to the Powerless"?

I live in America. More than 99% of the users of this site and en.WP are from the the English speaking world and Europe. Muslims are a small and hard pressed minority in our society. They are easy to pick on and vilify. Almost no one will speak up if you do. I'm speaking up for my neighbors and countrymen who are Muslims.

The Muslim population in the USA is rather well educated, many very well educated. The ones that have citizenship vote, and most are politically active. It is a small population, but probably already bigger than the USA Jewish population.

Muslims need to develop an ability to deal with stuff they may not like. Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech. I would like to see Muslims develop enough humor about themselves so they could make an ad like this one made by Israeli Jews about their own religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQkopQSOlA

[Moulton]

Stop trolling already. People are tired of it.

We really do need to unpack the expansion of the scope of "trolling" to encompass anything and everything which one is taking exception to.

[GlassBeadGame]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "You're being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

Me too. I like to live in America, okay by me in America...

Paul Simon has a much better ear than Bernstein for appropriating the music of other cultures, but not alway for commercial success.

[Ottava]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "Your being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

There is a very good reason. They kill people over it in order to try and dominate and spread fear. This is to show that they cannot intimidate us.

Christ has been covered in shit in artwork and that was glorified. This is only the mere drawing of a cartoon. Get over yourself.

[GlassBeadGame]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "Your being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

There is a very good reason. They kill people over it in order to try and dominate and spread fear. This is to show that they cannot intimidate us.

Christ has been covered in shit in artwork and that was glorified. This is only the mere drawing of a cartoon. Get over yourself.

Wow.

[Kwork]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "You're being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

Since the Age of Reason most religions have learned to live with the criticism that comes their way. Why do you think Muslims can not take the same criticisms that other religions are subject to? "Dicks"? It would be, in fact, more rational to call "dicks" those who become threatening, or violent, when criticized.

[A Horse With No Name]

While we're talking religion, does anyone have any good Zoroastrianism jokes? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[thekohser]

The wild, broad-brush strokes on this thread make me more thankful that one of the largest initiatives at our church is to expand our inter-faith (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist, primarily) outreach, education, and celebration efforts.

Are people really so dense as to think that caricatures of extreme and fundamentalist elements of religions do in fact represent the vast majority of practitioners of those religions?!

A new low, Wikipedia Review.

[Kwork]

The wild, broad-brush strokes on this thread make me more thankful that one of the largest initiatives at our church is to expand our inter-faith (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist, primarily) outreach, education, and celebration efforts.

Are people really so dense as to think that caricatures of extreme and fundamentalist elements of religions do in fact represent the vast majority of practitioners of those religions?!

A new low, Wikipedia Review.

What is your point?

[GlassBeadGame]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "You're being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

Since the Age of Reason most religions have learned to live with the criticism that comes their way. Why do you think Muslims can not take the same criticisms that other religions are subject to? "Dicks"? It would be, in fact, more rational to call "dicks" those who become threatening, or violent, when criticized.

You are certainly more reasonable than Ottava. But Muslims do have to deal with many, many Ottavas. I also think you over estimate the economic status of Muslims in America. There is great diversity, with a large and affluent exile Iranian community in LA and a even larger working class and recent immigrant community in East Dearborn. Guess who takes the brunt of the anti-Muslim hate?

[Ottava]

You are certainly more reasonable than Ottava. But Muslims do have to deal with many, many Ottavas. I also think you over estimate the economic status of Muslims in America. There is great diversity, with a large and affluent exile Iranian community in LA and a even larger working class and recent immigrant community in East Dearborn. Guess who takes the brunt of the anti-Muslim hate?

Oh yes, I am unreasonable because I said that people should draw a simple cartoon to show that they are not afraid -after- they are threatened to be killed for making the drawing.

The death threats came first. Get a clue. You are a hate mongerer and a troll. You hide behind anonymity and take contradictory points simply so you can cause as much disruption and harm as possible. If it was possible to ignore you, most people would and you would vanish.

[GlassBeadGame]

You are certainly more reasonable than Ottava. But Muslims do have to deal with many, many Ottavas. I also think you over estimate the economic status of Muslims in America. There is great diversity, with a large and affluent exile Iranian community in LA and a even larger working class and recent immigrant community in East Dearborn. Guess who takes the brunt of the anti-Muslim hate?

Oh yes, I am unreasonable because I said that people should draw a simple cartoon to show that they are not afraid -after- they are threatened to be killed for making the drawing.

The death threats came first. Get a clue. You are a hate mongerer and a troll. You hide behind anonymity and take contradictory points simply so you can cause as much disruption and harm as possible. If it was possible to ignore you, most people would and you would vanish.

Unfortunately for you things are written down around here and once quoted you can't change the quote.

[Kwork]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "You're being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

Since the Age of Reason most religions have learned to live with the criticism that comes their way. Why do you think Muslims can not take the same criticisms that other religions are subject to? "Dicks"? It would be, in fact, more rational to call "dicks" those who become threatening, or violent, when criticized.

You are certainly more reasonable than Ottava. But Muslims do have to deal with many, many Ottavas. I also think you over estimate the economic status of Muslims in America. There is great diversity, with a large and affluent exile Iranian community in LA and a even larger working class and recent immigrant community in East Dearborn. Guess who takes the brunt of the anti-Muslim hate?

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

[GlassBeadGame]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

[Kwork]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

Did you make this big a deal about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International...oon_Competition

I did not hear much complaining from Muslin sources. Its the usual: if I do it to you its good, but if you do it to me its bad.

[Ottava]

Unfortunately for you things are written down around here and once quoted you can't change the quote.

Exactly, and you made it sound like those being threatened with having their heads chopped off are the awful abusers of a poor minority that has no power!

You are so full of shit and everyone knows it. You are hateful. There is no possible way you honestly believe that the cartoons are awful, or that you honestly support the idiots who threatened to chop off the heads of the South Park people. You are just trolling.

[GlassBeadGame]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

Did you make this big a deal about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International...oon_Competition

I did not hear much complaining from Muslin sources. Its the usual: if I do it to you its good, but if you do it to me its bad.

Please don't cite Wikipedia articles to me for general background, it only debases the discussion. Of course if your point is about an article or userpage then no problem.

I have spoken out repeatedly about antisemitism on this site. I get the same "censorship" nonsense about that, too.

[Milton Roe]

I live in America. More than 99% of the users of this site and en.WP are from the the English speaking world and Europe. Muslims are a small and hard pressed minority in our society. They are easy to pick on and vilify. Almost no one will speak up if you do. I'm speaking up for my neighbors and countrymen who are Muslims.

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics. The small minority of Arab-Muslims in America tend to be looked at with some suspicion by Americans these days, but since nearly all the people who've been trying to blow up Americans this last quarter of a century (from La Belle discotheque to Faisal Shahzad) have been Arabic Muslims, it's not really surprizing. I'm not really sure American can be accused of "starting it" by supporting Israel. This does not excuse killing of Americans, and especially civilian Americans. Muslims aren't good citizens of France, either, and so you can't just make anti-zionism an excuse for any bunch of Muslim emigrants acting-badly.

Defending much of Islam is a losing battle. As a religion it's even more narrowminded and unforgiving than Southern Baptistism, and that's saying a lot. And its attitude toward women is some of the worst to be found in a modern religion. Frankly, a lot of it is shit (see the Wahabits and Taliban for how bad Muslim conservatives can be), and what's left is superstition. You have to look very hard to find the diamonds in its rough (okay, it has a good attitude toward treatment of guests and strangers, and it's color-blind, at least toward Muslims). But overall, there is no reason to have any great respect for it (the religion). If its followers don't wake up and perform some major surgery on it, rather like the Roman Catholics had to do when faced with modern astronomy and the reformation, the conservative and fundamentalist version of Islam is going to be source of a great deal more suffering for many of its conservative believers. The world's patience for these people has long run out. When the Arabs' oil runs out and money stops being diverted to the most nutty branches of "Islam" they're going to be even more of a world of hurt. And deserve it.

It's not a bigotry thing-- the liberal Muslims are fine with me. It's a "recognize the asshole" thing. The conservative Muslims (of which there are very many- they are NOT a tiny minority) are not fine with me.

[Kwork]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

Did you make this big a deal about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International...oon_Competition

I did not hear much complaining from Muslin sources. Its the usual: if I do it to you its good, but if you do it to me its bad.

Please don't cite Wikipedia articles to me for general background, it only debases the discussion. Of course if your point is about an article or userpage then no problem.

I have spoken out repeatedly about antisemitism on this site. I get the same "censorship" nonsense about that, too.

You did not answer my question, which makes it appear that you did not protest the Holocaust Cartoon Contest. (NB: I will site whatever sources I choose. Please do not tell me what to do.)

[Web Fred]

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "Your being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

There is a very good reason. They kill people over it in order to try and dominate and spread fear. This is to show that they cannot intimidate us.

Christ has been covered in shit in artwork and that was glorified. This is only the mere drawing of a cartoon. Get over yourself.

I'm sure Torquemada would be proud of you.

All organised religions are as bad as each other, some are just more imaginative than others.

[GlassBeadGame]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

Did you make this big a deal about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International...oon_Competition

I did not hear much complaining from Muslin sources. Its the usual: if I do it to you its good, but if you do it to me its bad.

Please don't cite Wikipedia articles to me for general background, it only debases the discussion. Of course if your point is about an article or userpage then no problem.

I have spoken out repeatedly about antisemitism on this site. I get the same "censorship" nonsense about that, too.

You did not answer my question, which makes it appear that you did not protest the Holocaust Cartoon Contest. (NB: I will site whatever sources I choose. Please do not tell me what to do.)

No I don't follow every meme on the internet or idiotic antic of Ahmadinejad with a Wikipedia Article. I have no qualms in saying that it was antisemitic and wrong. I am more concerned with addressing the ills of my own society.

Cite the Wikipedia article if you want. Makes you look stupid and I won't read it so its a waste of your time.

[A Horse With No Name]

And its attitude toward women is some of the worst to be found in a modern religion.

Curious, but four predominantly Muslim countries -- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Kyrgyzstan -- found themselves with women as heads of state.

[thekohser]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

[Moulton]

You are just trolling.

I wonder if there is such a thing as unjust trolling.

[Milton Roe]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

You got any stats that say otherwise?

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/Factshee...bAmericans.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_c...m_Americans.png

[GlassBeadGame]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

You got any stats that say otherwise?

Given the overall post it seems like questioning the bread in a shit sandwich.

[Milton Roe]

And its attitude toward women is some of the worst to be found in a modern religion.

Curious, but four predominantly Muslim countries -- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Kyrgyzstan -- found themselves with women as heads of state.

That is a bit odd. But it is the Arabs who tend to be the fundamentalists, and to export the fundie view of women.

[Ottava]

And its attitude toward women is some of the worst to be found in a modern religion.

Curious, but four predominantly Muslim countries -- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Kyrgyzstan -- found themselves with women as heads of state.

Pakistan didn't last too long with that, remember?

[A Horse With No Name]

While we're talking religion, does anyone have any good Zoroastrianism jokes? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Anyone? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

[GlassBeadGame]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

You got any stats that say otherwise?

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/Factshee...bAmericans.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_c...m_Americans.png

"South Asian" is more likely to refer to Pakistan and India than Indonesian which would better be described as South East Asia, but what can you expect from Wikipedia... I'm not surprised many Muslims are Asians and of course Indonesia is a huge nation, with the highest Muslim population in the world.

[CharlotteWebb]

[Muhammad] is neither too short nor too tall. His hair is neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long hair growing from neck to navel. He has long eye-lashes, close eye-brows, smooth and shining fore-head and a long space between his shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him

In other words he looks like Sergio in that Smirnoff commercial. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

[Ottava]

While we're talking religion, does anyone have any good Zoroastrianism jokes? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Anyone? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

Zoroastor walked into a bar....

he was knocked unconscious.

[CharlotteWebb]

While we're talking religion, does anyone have any good Zoroastrianism jokes? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Anyone? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

Baba Wawa: If you could be any kind of car, what would you be?
Zarathustra: Mazda Protégé.

This post has been edited by CharlotteWebb:

[Kwork]

Is it, then, your view that for that reason Islam can not be criticized? US law forbids hate crimes against anyone, and (as little as I like its basic idea) Everybody Draw Mohammed Day does not seem to promote hate.

Why is this so hard? I'm not saying "you can't criticize Islam." I'm saying you're not immune from criticism yourself for such a petty and mean spirited ploy disguised as a "protest." If to many adherents of Islam an important religious tenent is not to depict their prophet and people go out of there way to mock them for this it seems to me petty and mean.

Did you make this big a deal about the Holocaust Cartoon Contest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International...oon_Competition

I did not hear much complaining from Muslin sources. Its the usual: if I do it to you its good, but if you do it to me its bad.

Please don't cite Wikipedia articles to me for general background, it only debases the discussion. Of course if your point is about an article or userpage then no problem.

I have spoken out repeatedly about antisemitism on this site. I get the same "censorship" nonsense about that, too.

You did not answer my question, which makes it appear that you did not protest the Holocaust Cartoon Contest. (NB: I will site whatever sources I choose. Please do not tell me what to do.)

No I don't follow every meme on the internet or idiotic antic of Ahmadinejad with a Wikipedia Article. I have no qualms in saying that it was antisemitic and wrong. I am more concerned with addressing the ills of my own society.

Cite the Wikipedia article if you want. Makes you look stupid and I won't read it so its a waste of your time.

1. In fact things are just the opposite of what you seem to think. 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day' is supported by virtually no one and is insignificant. The 'Holocaust Cartoon Contest' was supported by a national government that has also reprinted the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and promoted that antisemitic lie at the Frankfurt Book Fair. (You will have to do without the links.)

2. Think I am stupid if you want - what you think is not in my power - but I would not have called you stupid even though I think you are wrong. Likewise with what you choose to read: that is up to you and of no interest to me.

This post has been edited by Kwork:

[A Horse With No Name]

Zoroastor walked into a bar....

he was knocked unconscious.

I dunno about that one. Mr. Z. looked like a pretty solid guy:

(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/Zartosht.jpg)

[dtobias]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

[GlassBeadGame]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

[Kwork]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

[GlassBeadGame]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything. Its like Rumsfield bombing Iraq because Afghanistan had no good targets. You are just bulling convenient targets who did you no harm.

The most serious speech that is being chilled around this event is that of American and other Western Muslims and those who might speak up against your bigotry.

How come when I speak out against antisemitism around here I don't get this kind of rancor? Bigots, all.

[Kwork]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything. Its like Rumsfield bombing Iraq because Afghanistan had no good targets. You are just bulling convenient targets who did you no harm.

The most serious speech that is being chilled around this event is that of American and other Western Muslims and those who might speak up against your bigotry.

How come when I speak out against antisemitism around here I don't get this kind of rancor? Bigots, all.

Hmm..."Assholes" and "Bigots"? It seems that GlassBeadGame has either momentarily flipped his lid, or is out of rational arguments.

[Ottava]

Zoroastor walked into a bar....

he was knocked unconscious.

I dunno about that one. Mr. Z. looked like a pretty solid guy:

I hope you realized I was doing the classic bar = solid metal object and not a place to get a drink joke. ;/

[GlassBeadGame]

Hmm..."Assholes" and "Bigots"? It seems that GlassBeadGame has either momentarily flipped his lid, or is out of rational arguments.

I'm sick of Internet Libertarian assholes and their self centered world view. Not that there aren't plenty of other sources of bigotry against Muslims in our society.

[Ottava]

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything.

Yeah, they will only chop off our heads if we do.

Stop trolling.

[Web Fred]

Hmm..."Assholes" and "Bigots"? It seems that GlassBeadGame has either momentarily flipped his lid, or is out of rational arguments.

I'm sick of Internet Libertarian assholes and their self centered world view. Not that there aren't plenty of other sources of bigotry against Muslims in our society.

Now that got me pissing myself laughing, the notion that a middle-American has a world view on anything!

[Milton Roe]

While we're talking religion, does anyone have any good Zoroastrianism jokes? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Anyone? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

Baba Wawa: If you could be any kind of car, what would you be?
Zarathustra: Mazda Protégé.

Very good. I was thinking about a Star Trek shaggy dog story where Lt. Uhura has a Mazda, but it wasn't worth it.

[A Horse With No Name]

I hope you realized I was doing the classic bar = solid metal object and not a place to get a drink joke. ;/

Phooey! What kind of a Borscht Belt comic are you? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

We could get more laughs if McBride and Lar put on baseball caps and did "Who's on First?"

Very good. I was thinking about a Star Trek shaggy dog story where Lt. Uhura has a Mazda, but it wasn't worth it.

Yeah, Big Mama Charlotte got her Z-drive going. But she's too erudite for me. I go for the slapstick babes. I wonder if Charlotte can do Martha Raye shtick like this:



This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name:

[RMHED]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything. Its like Rumsfield bombing Iraq because Afghanistan had no good targets. You are just bulling convenient targets who did you no harm.

The most serious speech that is being chilled around this event is that of American and other Western Muslims and those who might speak up against your bigotry.

How come when I speak out against antisemitism around here I don't get this kind of rancor? Bigots, all.

Just because one can draw a depiction of Mohammed that doesn't necessarily mean one should do so. If your only reason for doing so is to try to cause offence, then shame on you. If your only reason for being offended is to bring about confrontation, then shame on you too.

This post has been edited by RMHED:

[dtobias]

Hmm..."Assholes" and "Bigots"? It seems that GlassBeadGame has either momentarily flipped his lid, or is out of rational arguments.

That would require him to actually have had a lid to flip, or a capacity to make rational arguments, in the first place.

[anthony]

Just because one can draw a depiction of Mohammed that doesn't necessarily mean one should do so. If your only reason for doing so is to try to cause offence, then shame on you.

Fair enough, but there are plenty of reasons to participate in "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" other than merely to cause offence. I think GBG was more on track when he suggested that a major purpose is to "mock Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammad".

The point isn't even to mock Muslims in general. Any (likely non-fundamentalist) Muslim who doesn't take this particular silly superstition seriously ought to be laughing along with the rest of us.'

Okay, now to get back on topic. O-|< (Muhammad ASCII art)

[Kwork]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything. Its like Rumsfield bombing Iraq because Afghanistan had no good targets. You are just bulling convenient targets who did you no harm.

The most serious speech that is being chilled around this event is that of American and other Western Muslims and those who might speak up against your bigotry.

How come when I speak out against antisemitism around here I don't get this kind of rancor? Bigots, all.

Just because one can draw a depiction of Mohammed that doesn't necessarily mean one should do so. If your only reason for doing so is to try to cause offence, then shame on you. If your only reason for being offended is to bring about confrontation, then shame on you too.

You guys really don't seem to grasp the concept of free speech. It is not about what you think is nice, its about speech being free for everyone or else it is free for no one. For example, in the late 1970s, when the American Nazi Parti wanted to march through Skokie, Illinois, the local population (many of whom were Jewish Holocaust survivors) tried to have the march blocked. The American Civil Liberties Union defended the Nazi right to free speech in court even though they thought the march detestable.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html

The reason the ACLU got involved was because they knew that it is not possible to pick and choose on free speech issues. Either everyone has the right, or else we all wind up without it. Nice is not a deciding factor.

[GlassBeadGame]

The "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is in direct response to a Muslim group making death threats on the people involved with South Park for doing an episode that lampooned the intolerant attitude of Muslims over that sort of thing, ironically proving the point of the episode; and the cowardly corporate types who caved into this threat by censoring the followup episode (among other things, bleeping out a speech at the end which decried censorship and intolerance).

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

Yes of course the ones with an open hand extended to the people who are different from themselves are the "intolerant" ones." Not the ones insisting that they need to be unimpeded by the concerns of others, even to the point of going out of their way to offend. A billion Muslims did not threaten South Park and neither did I. Bigot.

The point is defending freedom of speech. That freedom is not now well defended because of a lack of guts in standing up to the threats of religiously motivated goons.

There have been cases where the American Civil Liberties Union defended in court the free speech rights of even the American Nazi Party. If US citizens will not defend the rights of all free speech there will soon be no free speech. Capice?

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything. Its like Rumsfield bombing Iraq because Afghanistan had no good targets. You are just bulling convenient targets who did you no harm.

The most serious speech that is being chilled around this event is that of American and other Western Muslims and those who might speak up against your bigotry.

How come when I speak out against antisemitism around here I don't get this kind of rancor? Bigots, all.

Just because one can draw a depiction of Mohammed that doesn't necessarily mean one should do so. If your only reason for doing so is to try to cause offence, then shame on you. If your only reason for being offended is to bring about confrontation, then shame on you too.

You guys really don't seem to grasp the concept of free speech. It is not about what you think is nice, its about speech being free for everyone or else it is free for no one. For example, in the late 1970s, when the American Nazi Parti wanted to march through Skokie, Illinois, the local population (many of whom were Jewish Holocaust survivors) tried to have the march blocked. The American Civil Liberties Union defended the Nazi right to free speech in court even though they thought the march detestable.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html

The reason the ACLU got involved was because they knew that it is not possible to pick and choose on free speech issues. Either everyone has the right, or else we all wind up without it. Nice is not a deciding factor.

The ACLU was fighting for a the right of a despised group to speak out against the great weight of popular thought. That was noble on the part of the ACLU, even if the Nazis are assholes. You have the great weight of popular thought on your side and you are using it attack an innocent minority form the safety of a society that shelters you and despises them. That is cowardly.

One of the core values of free speech is to protect insular minorities from majoritarian tyranny. You are simply on the wrong side.

Free speech is more than a bunch of idiots saying "we can say anything we want, we can say anything we want" like some moronic nine year old cartoon characters. This is impossible for Internet Libertarians to grasp.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

You obviously have not acquainted yourself with scholars such as Nicholas of Kues.

Indeed I am not. But could you say more about his role in promoting diligent epistemology of arbitrary beliefs systems (including scientific beliefs, religious beliefs, secular political beliefs, and popular cultural beliefs)?

The Wikipedia article is typically inadequate. An example of Cusa's epistemological rigor is his contribution to the debate on the Quadrature of the Circle. Some scholars insisted that by increasing the number of sides of a polygon, you make it eventually indistisguishable from a circle. Cusa pointed out that in fact, the more sides (and vertices) you add, the less like a circle it becomes, because each vertex is a singularity, an interruption of continuity, as opposed to a circle which has no singularities. Beyond that, as a colleague of mine wrote some time ago,

This just underscores the fact that Cusanus was not the first to discover the incommensurability of a circular and a straight line. Cusanus’s discovery was to realize the implications of the incommensurability, i.e., that the circle is not incommensurable to the polygon in the same way that the diagonal of a square is incommensurable with its side. The circle is transcendental, and therefore ontologically superior, to the polygon, something which Llull did not realize.

Of course hate speech is forbiden, but otherwise mild humor and criticism is protected freedom of speech.

As is saying "Your being a dick to Muslims for no good reason."

There is a very good reason. They kill people over it in order to try and dominate and spread fear. This is to show that they cannot intimidate us.

Can you name one religion whose adherents have not done that at one time or another? You sound like Bernard Lewis.

And its attitude toward women is some of the worst to be found in a modern religion.

Curious, but four predominantly Muslim countries -- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Kyrgyzstan -- found themselves with women as heads of state.

Milton is no dummy, but his Achilles heel seems to be his willingness to be an echo chamber for whatever the latest propaganda line may be.

Of course, to our resident nincompoop GlassBeadGame, the cartoonists are the evil offenders and the censors/death-threateners are the victims.

IMHO, these guys are the evil offenders and everyone else becomes the victim.

Back to the question of Nicholas of Cusa -- despite being a Catholic Cardinal a long, long time ago, he was a progressive thinker in that he wrote De Pace Fidei, "On the Peace of Faith," which is a dialog between representatives of different religious persuasions, including Islam, seeking common ground.

[Moulton]

Cusa lived before Newton and Leibniz invented the Calculus, and before anyone (other than Archimedes) had worked out the mathematics of taking the limits of infinite sequences.

It took mathematicians a long time to work out a rigorous treatment of the limits of infinite sequences, and to this day, the topic remains a stumbling block for most students studying the Calculus.

Mathematics is one of the few disciplines where one can construct an air tight proof of a theorem. Most other fields of study employ methods that necessarily leave room for doubt regarding any given theory or model.

Perhaps there are better references to the work of Cusa than you have found on Wikipedia, but if those are what the public are relying on, it's unlikely anyone would be inspired to sharpen up their diligence with respect to examining the accuracy of their beliefs in any subject, let alone some arcane theorems in plane geometry.

[radek]

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything.

Yeah, they will only chop off our heads if we do.

Stop trolling.

The point is that the "they" here is misapplied - in a "those people" kind of way - and your usage of it says quite a bit about yourself. The "they" Muslims I know are not going to chop off anybody's head, for this or any other reason. At worst they may act uncomfortable if the topic is brought up in conversation. And I wouldn't blame them.

People also seem to be confusing right to free speech with generally being an asshole. You may have a constitutional or even God given right to be an asshole, but that doesn't make you any less of an asshole. In the Skokie trial ACLU was confronting government (local though it was) policy. Has the US government, or the Seattle city council or whatever passed a law forbidding depicting Mohamed? No? Then censorship has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and I'm on the internet and I confess to having some libertarian tendencies. But for this to be a libertarian issue, governments have to be involved in the equation somehow. As far as I can tell, with the whole Comedy Central flap, they're not.

This post has been edited by radek:

[Ottava]

The point is that the "they" here is misapplied - in a "those people" kind of way - and your usage of it says quite a bit about yourself. The "they" Muslims I know are not going to chop off anybody's head, for this or any other reason. At worst they may act uncomfortable if the topic is brought up in conversation. And I wouldn't blame them.

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to the news where the creators of South Park were threatened with a beheading?

[radek]

The point is that the "they" here is misapplied - in a "those people" kind of way - and your usage of it says quite a bit about yourself. The "they" Muslims I know are not going to chop off anybody's head, for this or any other reason. At worst they may act uncomfortable if the topic is brought up in conversation. And I wouldn't blame them.

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to the news where the creators of South Park were threatened with a beheading?

By the US government? Really? Or was it the entire population of Muslims of this planet?

This post has been edited by radek:

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to the news where the creators of South Park were threatened with a beheading?

I missed that one. Was it for general tastelessness, or something more specific?

[Ottava]

I missed that one. Was it for general tastelessness, or something more specific?

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to the news where the creators of South Park were threatened with a beheading?

It was for depicting Mohammad, even though it was merely Mohammad in a teddy bear suit to not show him. Showing him without actually showing him was still enough to warrant threats of beheading.

[EricBarbour]

Asshole. Muslims are not stopping you, South Park or anyone else from saying anything.

Yeah, they will only chop off our heads if we do.
Stop trolling.

(IMG:http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/metasonix/BeatDeadHorse.gif)

[GlassBeadGame]

The point is that the "they" here is misapplied - in a "those people" kind of way - and your usage of it says quite a bit about yourself. The "they" Muslims I know are not going to chop off anybody's head, for this or any other reason. At worst they may act uncomfortable if the topic is brought up in conversation. And I wouldn't blame them.

Perhaps you didn't pay attention to the news where the creators of South Park were threatened with a beheading?

Yes, by a website with a Manhattan phone number, called "RevolutionMuslim.com" with an Alexa rank of 89,749. The site denied intending the base and unjustifiably vile statement they made was a threat. They actually said something about the South Park writers might suffer the same fate as someone who was murdered. Not a very nice thing. Call the police and prosecute them. No complaint from me.

So how many people do you suppose are involved in "RevolutionMuslim.com?" Two, three, ten...maybe a hundred? I doubt anywhere near a hundred. But there are a billion Muslims. So if there are a hundred you want to punish 999,999,900 innocent people for the actions of these cretins?

Meanwhile Stan, Kyle and Butters are fine. But goddamn it they killed Kenny. Bastards.

[Ottava]

Yes, by a website with a Manhattan phone number, called "RevolutionMuslim.com" with an Alexa rank of 89,749. The site denied intending the base and unjustifiably vile statement they made was a threat. They actually said something about the South Park writers might suffer the same fate as someone who was murdered. Not a very nice thing. Call the police and prosecute them. No complaint from me.

So how many people do you suppose are involved in "RevolutionMuslim.com?" Two, three, ten...maybe a hundred? I doubt anywhere near a hundred. But there are a billion Muslims. So if there are a hundred you want to punish 999,999,900 innocent people for the actions of these cretins?

Only takes one person. It only took one in the Netherlands.

[GlassBeadGame]

Yes, by a website with a Manhattan phone number, called "RevolutionMuslim.com" with an Alexa rank of 89,749. The site denied intending the base and unjustifiably vile statement they made was a threat. They actually said something about the South Park writers might suffer the same fate as someone who was murdered. Not a very nice thing. Call the police and prosecute them. No complaint from me.

So how many people do you suppose are involved in "RevolutionMuslim.com?" Two, three, ten...maybe a hundred? I doubt anywhere near a hundred. But there are a billion Muslims. So if there are a hundred you want to punish 999,999,900 innocent people for the actions of these cretins?

Only takes one person. It only took one in the Netherlands.

That would leave, and please check my math, 999,999,999 innocent, but that means nothing to you in your bigotry.

[Ottava]

Only takes one person. It only took one in the Netherlands.

That would leave, and please check my math, 999,999,999 innocent, but that means nothing to you in your bigotry.

The only one being a bigot here is you, assuming that there are a billion Muslims ignorant enough to think that threatening to kill someone for drawing a picture.

See, that is the topic, regardless of how you try to twist it in your trolling.

Simple fact is, you hate everyone, so of course you'd want to promote a bigoted impression of Islam while simultaneously supporting the idea of someone threatening to kill another for a simple picture that is clearly not offensive.

Grow up.

[radek]

Yes, by a website with a Manhattan phone number, called "RevolutionMuslim.com" with an Alexa rank of 89,749. The site denied intending the base and unjustifiably vile statement they made was a threat. They actually said something about the South Park writers might suffer the same fate as someone who was murdered. Not a very nice thing. Call the police and prosecute them. No complaint from me.

So how many people do you suppose are involved in "RevolutionMuslim.com?" Two, three, ten...maybe a hundred? I doubt anywhere near a hundred. But there are a billion Muslims. So if there are a hundred you want to punish 999,999,900 innocent people for the actions of these cretins?

Only takes one person. It only took one in the Netherlands.

So some wack job says that bombing abortion clinics on Christmas is a gift to Jesus on his birthday. The Christians really are a murderous bloodthirsty lot. After all, all it takes is one.

[GlassBeadGame]

The only one being a bigot here is you, assuming that there are a billion Muslims ignorant enough to think that threatening to kill someone for drawing a picture.

Assuming what? If you hear a billion Muslims saying that they are only in your head you need medical attention, badly. That's my point. You don't need to punish them with your arrogant disrespect. They mean you no harm.

[Ottava]

The only one being a bigot here is you, assuming that there are a billion Muslims ignorant enough to think that threatening to kill someone for drawing a picture.

Assuming what? If you hear a billion Muslims saying that they are only in your head you need medical attention, badly. That's my point. You don't need to punish them with your arrogant disrespect. They mean you no harm.

You are the one that proclaimed what a billion Muslims apparently believed.

Here is the thing, you haven't proven that any Muslim cares except those who threaten to kill others.

It is that simple. You are defending those who spread hate and threaten to kill others. You have defended a lot of horrible things here mostly because all you want to do is spread hate. Just leave.

[GlassBeadGame]

The only one being a bigot here is you, assuming that there are a billion Muslims ignorant enough to think that threatening to kill someone for drawing a picture.

Assuming what? If you hear a billion Muslims saying that they are only in your head you need medical attention, badly. That's my point. You don't need to punish them with your arrogant disrespect. They mean you no harm.

You are the one that proclaimed what a billion Muslims apparently believed.

Here is the thing, you haven't proven that any Muslim cares except those who threaten to kill others.

It is that simple. You are defending those who spread hate and threaten to kill others. You have defended a lot of horrible things here mostly because all you want to do is spread hate. Just leave.

Last year 500,000 Muslims petitioned, peacefully and mostly with kind words, Wikipedia to not depict Mohammad with images in the WP article on their Prophet. That was a huge display which of course you belittled. So now you think they want your mockery of their belief?

[Moulton]

Ode to Goys

O Fiende, niche diese Clöwne....

[Web Fred]

Yes, by a website with a Manhattan phone number, called "RevolutionMuslim.com" with an Alexa rank of 89,749. The site denied intending the base and unjustifiably vile statement they made was a threat. They actually said something about the South Park writers might suffer the same fate as someone who was murdered. Not a very nice thing. Call the police and prosecute them. No complaint from me.

So how many people do you suppose are involved in "RevolutionMuslim.com?" Two, three, ten...maybe a hundred? I doubt anywhere near a hundred. But there are a billion Muslims. So if there are a hundred you want to punish 999,999,900 innocent people for the actions of these cretins?

Only takes one person. It only took one in the Netherlands.

That would leave, and please check my math, 999,999,999 innocent, but that means nothing to you in your bigotry.

Oh the irony. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wtf.gif)

The only one being a bigot here is you, assuming that there are a billion Muslims ignorant enough to think that threatening to kill someone for drawing a picture.

Assuming what? If you hear a billion Muslims saying that they are only in your head you need medical attention, badly. That's my point. You don't need to punish them with your arrogant disrespect. They mean you no harm.

You are the one that proclaimed what a billion Muslims apparently believed.

Here is the thing, you haven't proven that any Muslim cares except those who threaten to kill others.

It is that simple. You are defending those who spread hate and threaten to kill others. You have defended a lot of horrible things here mostly because all you want to do is spread hate. Just leave.

Last year 500,000 Muslims petitioned, peacefully and mostly with kind words, Wikipedia to not depict Mohammad with images in the WP article on their Prophet. That was a huge display which of course you belittled. So now you think they want your mockery of their belief?

And what right do any number of muslims have that allows them to decide what other people should or shouldn't be able to do?

It's fair enough to request that other muslims don't create images of Big M, it is not fair to request that non-muslims do.

[thekohser]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

You got any stats that say otherwise?

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/Factshee...bAmericans.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_c...m_Americans.png

This was an enjoyable exercise for me, Milton. Thank you for proving to me that Wikipedia and the "prejudiceinstitute.org" are biased and unreliable sources for your musings.

Just to give one example, your second link points to a Wikipedia article whose "Religious background" portion is drawn from the Arab American Institute. If you go to the linked source, you'll see that the AAI is citing a 2002 "Zogby International" survey of Arab Americans. Do you know who Dr. James J. Zogby is? He is the President and co-founder of the Arab American Institute. His study consisted of samples of people from only eight selected Arab nations (including the great Arab state of Israel -- that would help explain all the Jewish Arabs that Wikipedia has documented), even though there are 24 countries in the Arab League and the AAI itself notes that there are 22 Arab countries. Do you find it representative of religious distribution that a self-designed and self-managed survey excluded (out of the top 10 largest Arab countries) Arab Americans from the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th largest Arab countries?

Another Wikipedia source was this precious number entitled "...And What About Arab Christians?" In it, we can learn that:

• "Many Americans ignore that Arab Christians exit (sic)."
• "About 80% of the American Arabs are Christians" (that's odd, Wikipedia says 63%, based on Zogby's eight-country poll)
• "The Americans and particularly the Christians among them are called to do the following:" (followed by a 5-point plan of action for all Americans, including "support the Christians of the Middle East")

Milton, you often impress me with your knowledge of things. Other times, you come off like a total ding-dong. This one was one of your ding-dong moments.

[Kwork]

Hmm..."Assholes" and "Bigots"? It seems that GlassBeadGame has either momentarily flipped his lid, or is out of rational arguments.

I'm sick of Internet Libertarian assholes and their self centered world view. Not that there aren't plenty of other sources of bigotry against Muslims in our society.

Your regular use of insulting language, to characterize those you disagree with, seems to suggest that you are the internet asshole.

I do believe that the First Amendment is one of America's most valuable possessions. I am not sure if that makes me a libertarian (small l). I never thought about it. I certainly do not vote Libertarian, and do not much care for their politics.

I am not anti-Muslim, and one of the few articles I created on Wikipedia was concerned with a technical aspect of Islamic art. I had just started a second article on Islamic art that would have been much larger, but when I got indefed I had it deleted because there was not enough done for it to have any value.

[Kwork]

Back to the question of Nicholas of Cusa -- despite being a Catholic Cardinal a long, long time ago, he was a progressive thinker in that he wrote De Pace Fidei, "On the Peace of Faith," which is a dialog between representatives of different religious persuasions, including Islam, seeking common ground.

I am not sure that many Jews would see Nicholas de Cusa in such a favorable light. For example there is this problem: http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1451/s...1451_32634.html

[A Horse With No Name]

Oddly, most Americans of a certain age were first introduced to Islamic culture with the cartoon where Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck were chased by a turban-wearing Arabian who swung a scimitar while yelling, "Hassan chop!" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)

[Moulton]

Don't overlook Disney's Aladdin movies, too.

[Ottava]

Last year 500,000 Muslims petitioned, peacefully and mostly with kind words, Wikipedia to not depict Mohammad with images in the WP article on their Prophet. That was a huge display which of course you belittled. So now you think they want your mockery of their belief?

1. 500,000 does not equal a billion, so, you are definitely trolling even more.

2. We haven't a clue what their religion is or any proof. With people like you around, if there were 500,000 people (highly doubtful) than it is more likely they were all fat little nerds like you who, after turning off WoW for the night, decided to spread hate and trouble

3. Here is the website that proves that it is easily faked and doesn't require anything "religious". You would have known that, but you refused to apply any standard as you would about Wikipedia. The wonderful thing is, we all know you are a hypocrite and a troll so it isn't surprising. I love the spam signatures, like "dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ". Hell, reading how stupid so many of the statements are it is obvious that many people trolled it just to make Islam look bad.

In a similar way you are doing right now. You are such a hateful bigot.


More winning troll posts on that petition: "7:27 am PST, Dec 3, Flemming S�rensen, Denmark All muslims are TERRORISTS!!!!!!"

It is as if GBG wrote every single entry.

This post has been edited by Ottava:

[Kwork]

Don't overlook Disney's Aladdin movies, too.

I have memories of seeing the 1940 version of The Thief of Bagdad on TV sometime in the mid 1950s. I was probably around 12 when I saw it, and it fascinated me. There was an earlier, 1924, version with Douglas Fairbanks. I do not recall anything in it that would have given a negative view of Islam, rather the contrary I think.

In the long run it is the cultural contributions of the various religions that give people, of all backgrounds, something that can be shared. For example, I think The Prince's School of Traditional Arts makes a positive contribution to that. I rather wish there had been a school offering that type of studies in my own student days. http://www.psta.org.uk/

[Milton Roe]

Most Muslims in America are Indonesians. Most Arab-Americans are Catholics.

You got any stats on that nonsense, Milton?

You got any stats that say otherwise?

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/Factshee...bAmericans.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_c...m_Americans.png

This was an enjoyable exercise for me, Milton. Thank you for proving to me that Wikipedia and the "prejudiceinstitute.org" are biased and unreliable sources for your musings.

Just to give one example, your second link points to a Wikipedia article whose "Religious background" portion is drawn from the Arab American Institute. If you go to the linked source, you'll see that the AAI is citing a 2002 "Zogby International" survey of Arab Americans. Do you know who Dr. James J. Zogby is? He is the President and co-founder of the Arab American Institute. His study consisted of samples of people from only eight selected Arab nations (including the great Arab state of Israel -- that would help explain all the Jewish Arabs that Wikipedia has documented), even though there are 24 countries in the Arab League and the AAI itself notes that there are 22 Arab countries. Do you find it representative of religious distribution that a self-designed and self-managed survey excluded (out of the top 10 largest Arab countries) Arab Americans from the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th largest Arab countries?

Oh, yeah? What is your evidence for THAT? As you note, the AAI very well knows who Arab Americans are, and uses origin from the Arab league countries mostly to define it. BTW, the "size" (population) of Arab countries in the Arab league has little to do with Arabic descent representation in America. For example, most Arabs in the US are Lebanese, which is only the 17th most populous country in the Arab league. The second most popululous Arab league country, which you claim Zogby left out, is Iraq-- and yet Iraqi-Americans make up only 3% of Arab Americans: http://www.aaiusa.org/arab-americans/22/demographics. It wouldn't have mattered then if Zogby/AAI HAD left them out, but yet, what is your evidence that he actually did? He's well aware of their existence, as you see in the various links.

http://www.fd.org/pdf_lib/CulturalIssues_MidEast.pdf

Milton, you often impress me with your knowledge of things. Other times, you come off like a total ding-dong. This one was one of your ding-dong moments.

Prove it. Let's see your cite for what you say above, for a start.

[Ottava]

Milton, you often impress me with your knowledge of things. Other times, you come off like a total ding-dong. This one was one of your ding-dong moments.

Prove it. Let's see your cite for what you say above, for a start.

Milton, I believe this is one of the times that theory is overriding evidence, and that people want to continue their attacks against the system in any way possible because they are unwilling to possibly show what they disagree with in a neutral or sympathetic light.

[Moulton]

"Gentlemen, we can disagree without being disagreeable ding-dongs." --Benjamin Franklin

[Ottava]

"Gentlemen, we can disagree without being disagreeable ding-dongs." --Benjamin Franklin

Ha, ding dongs? : )

[GlassBeadGame]

Last year 500,000 Muslims petitioned, peacefully and mostly with kind words, Wikipedia to not depict Mohammad with images in the WP article on their Prophet. That was a huge display which of course you belittled. So now you think they want your mockery of their belief?

1. 500,000 does not equal a billion, so, you are definitely trolling even more.

2. We haven't a clue what their religion is or any proof. With people like you around, if there were 500,000 people (highly doubtful) than it is more likely they were all fat little nerds like you who, after turning off WoW for the night, decided to spread hate and trouble

3. Here is the website that proves that it is easily faked and doesn't require anything "religious". You would have known that, but you refused to apply any standard as you would about Wikipedia. The wonderful thing is, we all know you are a hypocrite and a troll so it isn't surprising. I love the spam signatures, like "dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ". Hell, reading how stupid so many of the statements are it is obvious that many people trolled it just to make Islam look bad.

In a similar way you are doing right now. You are such a hateful bigot.


More winning troll posts on that petition: "7:27 am PST, Dec 3, Flemming S�rensen, Denmark All muslims are TERRORISTS!!!!!!"

It is as if GBG wrote every single entry.

Of course in any petition of that size your going to have mischief. In that petition you have very, very little. The fact remains that it was a tremendous expression of opposition to Wikipedia disregard for their religion. Maybe the most significant display of such opposition on any issue to date. Of course the Internet Libertarians of Wikipedia are incapable of the self-restraint needed to care. Their own freedom to do whatever they want always trumps everything else. Then WMF hires consultants to figure out why Wikipedia is not held in high regard by the same people their community just shat upon.

In Ottavas twisted world of selfish and self centered me-ism gone wild a person who speaks up for people from other cultures who he melanges is a"hateful bigot" while he links a billion innocent people to 9-11 and a host of other crimes because he doesn't like their religion. There are Internet Libertarians, and they are bad enough, selfish and entitled but at the end of the day mostly just misdirected and mistaken. And then there is Ottava... something worse, vile and full of hate.

[A Horse With No Name]

I have memories of seeing the 1940 version of The Thief of Bagdad on TV sometime in the mid 1950s. I was probably around 12 when I saw it, and it fascinated me. There was an earlier, 1924, version with Douglas Fairbanks. I do not recall anything in it that would have given a negative view of Islam, rather the contrary I think.

There was also a Steve Reeves version in the early 1960s that turned up a lot on local TV stations in the pre-cable US. I suspect most Americans only knew of Bagdad from these films.

The 1940 version had a funny boo-boo -- Sabu eagerly enjoying sausages!