FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2933 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2943 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) To Autumn -
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I wanted to talk about changes to TFA as an introduction to something that is a major problem with Wikipedia - letting people mob articles that already have long standing consensus and the result is the destruction of an article.
If you look at the two, you will see a few things:
1. The word "colonialist", pulled directly from a source by a major critic in an article later included in a book about Romantic Colonialism is removed. Instead, an imaginary connection to Byron that is not in any sources nor logically true is added.
2. The summary of the work from highly notable sources is removed and replaced with just a copy and paste from Wikipedia. No summary, no guidance, nothing "critical".
3. The themes section went from tightly organized and concise to a bunch of tiny and scattered paragraphs with no unity.
4. Material from Walter Jackson Bate, the most famous Keats's critic and winner of a Pulitzer for his Keats biography, was removed because the editor disagreed with it. The reason why Bate points this out is in its uniqueness in poetry as a whole. Keats was a sound based poet and the various techniques are very important when writing about the poem.
5. Removing a description of an image for the reason that the drawing isn't what his real hair color is, but the description is about the image and not reality.
5. Dumbing down the work in general by removing "deals more with sensual observations" because the editor believes this to be nonsense. Mind you, one of the most famous literary critics Harold Bloom was the one who said it was a "sensuous observation of he consequences of that [Autumn's] process" while the first is "aureate".
6. Removing stuff without care. He says there are no "individuals", but Bloom refers to the various singers as entities even if they are animal. But even if you want to say "individual", he removes the idea of motionlessness, which is essential to critical interpretations of the poem and have been deemed a fundamental part of Keats's poetry.
7. Moving the structure to the bottom. The structure is essential to understand what you would even be reading. It is the mechanics, the background to the format. In critical works structure and mechanics always come first and it is standard on Wikipedia.
Was there discussion? No. Were there phrases changed to the point that they contradict what the sources? Yes.
The point - if this stuff happens on a small FA about poetry, what about incredibly technical and complex FAs? Why do they allow -any- changes during TFA instead of forcing everyone straight to the talk page? It seems as if Wikipedia -encourages- disruptive changes when the work is most prominent, making them magnets for embarrassing Wikipedia instead of showing off what is good.
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I'd also have to say Ottava is right in this case, though considering the subject matter, it probably depends on your aesthetic sensibilities to some degree. There are those who would say that poetry is meant to be enjoyed, rather than dissected, but of course you don't have to watch the dissection taking place if you don't want to.
My own aeshetic leanings are more towards surrealism and "absurdism," though I'm not too fond of the latter term. I prefer minimalism to ornamentalism, but consider both to be pretentious. Most English poetry just bores me - I prefer, say, Burmese or Hungarian poetry, because I don't know any Burmese or Hungarian and to me it looks like random collections of indecipherable characters lined up on a page. What it might actually be saying, I can only imagine - and I prefer imagining it myself to being able to read and comprehend it.
So from my own perspective, Ottava still has the right idea here, but only to the extent that he's basically saying, "this article should only be 3 times as long as a sane person would make it, not 5 times as long."
The unsupported idea that the poem "may be a response" to Lord Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage is also somewhat mystifying. It looks like most of that "damage" was done by one user, Amandajm (T-C-L-K-R-D)
, just yesterday - shortly before Ottava started this thread. But one thing I do like about the newer "damaged" version is that it doesn't insert any commentary into the poem itself - that looks a bit too didactic to me, possibly even disrespectful to the poet. It also makes it look more like a "dissection" than it already does... This may be what Ottava means by "moving the structure," and if so, I might disagree with him on that score. But that's just me! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 10th October 2010, 10:48am)
The point - if this stuff happens on a small FA about poetry, what about incredibly technical and complex FAs? Why do they allow -any- changes during TFA instead of forcing everyone straight to the talk page? It seems as if Wikipedia -encourages- disruptive changes when the work is most prominent, making them magnets for embarrassing Wikipedia instead of showing off what is good.
Well, to paraphrase something Jon Awbrey once wrote, it's not about marking up the content, it's about getting the marks into the con-tent.
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The reason why the poem is analyzed with the poem excerpts is two fold:
1. The anti "in-universe" bs and that people whine about there being a poem on Wiki and Wikisource.
2. School kids do not understand how the poem breaks down or need someone to cite for summaries of what the text says (and not necessarily "means" at that point).
The actual "summary" style follows critical works called "readers", where an honored literary critic just performs a close analysis of text with large excerpts thrown in. Harold Bloom has a very famous one on the Romantics.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 11th October 2010, 1:23pm)
1. The anti "in-universe" bs and that people whine about there being a poem on Wiki and Wikisource.
2. School kids do not understand how the poem breaks down or need someone to cite for summaries of what the text says (and not necessarily "means" at that point).
Both good points. You could even add one or two more, to the effect that reproducing the poem as a series of excerpts might encourage people to go elsewhere to read the poem in something more like its original form, preferably in an actual book, and maybe that doing so helps to prevent the reader from inventing his/her own novel interpretation of what the poem means and then trying to insert that personal interpretation into the article - without having first published it in a legitimate literary review or peer-reviewed journal of some kind.
Ah yes. There is something special about sitting around a fire in the wild: no radio, no TV, no iPODs, no internet. Just some alcohol. And perhaps somebody who knows some Service or Kipling poem by heart, and can recite it like they did in the days before our electronified entertainment culture hit us.
Of course, those places are shinking in size. In most of Yellowstone National Park your iPhone will now work fine, and you can be streaming the next movie off your personal Netflix queue while some poor bastard recites The Shooting of Dan McGrew. Stop me before I start to sound like Andy Rooney again.
The guy just reinserted the OR, the removal of cited content and the rest that -is- vandalism. God, why are such people even allowed near something referred to as an "encyclopedia".
"The introduction stated that the poem represents the tastes, sights and sounds of Autumn. It doesn't. There is no mention whatsoever of taste."
What do you think all of the harvest/food images are? "fruit with ripeness to the core", "sweet kernel", etc. The guy doesn't even know what IRC is and obvious hasn't a clue about discussing things before making mass and incorrect changes. Funny how he declares it as a bad page when even scholars say it was great before his adding of bullshit and other inappropriate things.
"The poem was a result of having lived in the world, and a farewell to it; at the same time it was a world unto itself, inhabiting fully its autumnal canvas, richer than any Constable painting."
He used it to claim "It has parallels in the rural landscapes of the English painter [[John Constable]".
The source does not say what he wishes for it to say nor does any of it justify inclusion of the statement into the article's lead.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 12th October 2010, 9:08am)
God, why are such people even allowed near something referred to as an "encyclopedia".
It's that "anyone can edit" thing. Ideally, encyclopedias should be written by people who know what they're talking about and are capable of collaborating with others. Problem is: people who actually fit that description would probably just look for a job at a real encyclopedia.
(Oh, sorry, just noticed that was addressed to God. God? Are you there? Ottava needs you!)
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 12th October 2010, 10:14am)
Damn that guy is getting on my nerves...
Just to clarify a bit, Amandajm (T-C-L-K-R-D)
claims to be female, i.e., "Amanda J.M." She seems to be either from the UK or Australia, most likely the UK, and says (on Commons) that she's "a retired person with experience in museum practice and education, art and architectural history and conservation." (So what about poetry?)
The addition of the Constable reference is definitely "WP:OR" - I wouldn't call it "vandalism," but at the very least, someone with admin rights should probably demand that she cease and desist on that one.
(Edit) - I also noticed that Amandajm spends a significant amount of time on Commons fighting against people who upload "enhanced" versions of famous paintings and, on occasion, photographs. She prefers the "aged look," and considers most attempts to digitally "clean up" such images to be "abhorrent" and "ghastly." Here's a good example. (Scroll to the bottom third of that page.) I'm not sure I disagree with her, but I will say she does seem awfully insistent about it!
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Tue 12th October 2010, 12:04pm)
(Oh, sorry, just noticed that was addressed to God. God? Are you there? Ottava needs you!)
I took it as more a suggestion that God needs Ottava. As in, the world needs fixing and this is how He should do it. Having failed to notice this minor thing.
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The page is now at FAR with predictably clueless statements by the guy trying to say his major changes were helpful.
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
If you bother to read a poem like Ode to Psyche, you will see that there is very little "standard" meter.
This is my statement on the FAR and how the guy destroyed the page and brought it below C level. I enjoy how he bashed the language (language that met with the approve of many scholars and a lot of Wiki people) but put in far worse language or absolutely made the page not reflect what the sources said...
Jack Stillinger (major critic) on page 15 points out (regarding "To Autumn"): "of course the conrasts and interchanges originae spontaneously, according to ear rather than principle. The same is true of the rhythmial qualities of the lines. Departures from the metrial norm occur almost everywhere... Caesuras and enjambments--the rhetorical pauses within lines and the run-on continuations of sense from one line to the next-- are similarly varied. One can count up and tabulate these things... but the results never explain, except in the bare fact of is existence, how or why suh variation creates pleasure."
The guy removed the percentages showing how majorly significant these alterations were. 14% of spondee is -unique- in English. It is a very impressive amount that shows that the poem is not -normal-.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 10:00am)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
Yep. They gallop rather than trot, no doubt about it. More like the third movement of the Emperor Concerto than the second.
Horsey, you should do a bit on the influence of riding on the poetry and music of the romantics. I think in our horseless carriage age, we no longer fully appreciate it.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:00pm)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 15th October 2010, 5:26pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:00pm)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
Trochee trips from long to short; From long to short in solemn sort Slow Spondee stalks; strong foot! yet ill able Ever to come up with Dactyl trisyllable. Iambics march from short to long; -- With a leap and a bound the swift Anapaests throng; One syllable long, with one short at each side, Amphibrachys hastes with a stately stride;-- First and last being long, middle short, Amphimacer Strikes his thundering hoofs like a proud high-bred Racer.
Trochee trips from long to short; From long to short in solemn sort Slow Spondee stalks; strong foot! yet ill able Ever to come up with Dactyl trisyllable. Iambics march from short to long; -- With a leap and a bound the swift Anapaests throng; One syllable long, with one short at each side, Amphibrachys hastes with a stately stride;-- First and last being long, middle short, Amphimacer Strikes his thundering hoofs like a proud high-bred Racer.
Nice. Classic Milton. Where were you hiding the original you?
If Derwent be innocent, steady, and wise, And delight in the things of earth, water, and skies; Tender warmth at his heart, with these meters to show it, With sound sense in his brains, may make Derwent a poet -- May crown him with fame, and must win him the love Of his father on earth and his father above. My dear, dear child! Could you stand upon Skiddaw, you would not from its whole ridge See a man who so loves you as your fond S.T. Colerige.
I so wanted to write a page on that. If you notice, the beauty in the poem is not the cleverness found in reflecting meter in the language but that it was a father sharing with his son what he enjoyed the most. Most of Coleridge's poetry was devoted to Hartley, but this was to Derwent.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 15th October 2010, 6:35pm)
Nice. Classic Milton. Where were you hiding the original you?
This is the original me as much as anything. No, I am not the hung-up Elizabethan "Savage," unable and unwilling to face the Brave New World. That's you, Hamlet; you can have it. If I had to be a Huxley character I'd be more Dr. Obispo in After Many A Summer Dies the Swan.
No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be; Am an attendant lord, one that will do To swell a progress, start a scene or two, Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool, Deferential, glad to be of use, Politic, cautious, and meticulous; Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse; At times, indeed, almost ridiculous— Almost, at times, the Fool.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 15th October 2010, 8:03pm)
What ho, Murray! What could it have been that I have seen?
Is it not of my marrow? Are we not one, of one self?
And Murray turns to her and says, "What are you hollering?" "What are you hollering? You're gonna wake up the whole castle."
(From Queen Alexandra and Murray, Shakespeare's 38th play.)
(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) Where did you get that? It's perfect. Life usually doesn't end heroically, but generally after an interminable time of elderly people yelling at each other. Shakespeare can be glad he missed it.
Well haye you heard, but something hard of hearing They call me Milton that do talk of me Sans eyes, sans teeth, sans wit, sans hearing aid Hold there and speak! Nor walk away Mumbling like storm in farthest mountains A surly sullen roll that hath not understanding Fye! Fye! Speak!
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:28pm)
I knew a Hell's Angel named Spondee once, in my ill-spent youth. 'Twas his given name.
Fits. It's from the Greek σπονδή, spondē = An alcoholic drink. I always think of it as thumping on the bar or in a wine barrel room. Some of the best spondee I know occurs in a poem where it's everywhere the boom-boom back-beat of drums along the Congo:
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable, Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table, Pounded on the table, Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom, Hard as they were able, Boom, boom, BOOM, With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom, Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
Warning: this is from an incredibly racist poem. A shame.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:52pm)
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:28pm)
I knew a Hell's Angel named Spondee once, in my ill-spent youth. 'Twas his given name.
Fits. It's from the Greek σπονδή, spondē = An alcoholic drink. I always think of it as thumping on the bar or in a wine barrel room. Some of the best spondee I know occurs in a poem where it's everywhere the boom-boom back-beat of drums along the Congo:
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable, Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table, Pounded on the table, Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom, Hard as they were able, Boom, boom, BOOM, With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom, Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
Warning: this is from an incredibly racist poem. A shame.
That fellow had some real deep-seated issues.
Despite the content of Congo, it's performed by students all over the world. I once walked past an auditorium in Manila on a cool spring night and was jolted to hear it crashing out into the darkness.
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This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
The Wikipedia article on Spondee (T-H-L-K-D) says the device is "unique in English verse as all other feet (excepting molossus, which has three stressed syllables, and dispondee, which has four stressed syllables) contain at least one unstressed syllable." But that WP article hasn't been touched by Ottava, FWIW.
Of course, "form the basis for" isn't the same as "ever appear in any form whatsoever within," but it's certainly different from what the WP article says at least. We all know that Ottava hates the Encyclopedia Britannica almost as much as Satan or Nancy Pelosi, so he'll probably tell us the EB article is a "crock of shit" or some such thing. Regardless, it does appear that this is a somewhat contentious issue within poetry-appreciation circles.
Ms. Amanda (btw, why does Ottava persist in using male pronouns for this person?) makes a valid point about the fact that To Autumn is referred to in the Iambic pentameter (T-H-L-K-D) article as an example of the form. Even if just 14 percent of the poem isn't in iambic pentameter, they should probably try to come up with a different example. (Again, though, this is assuming Ottava is substantially correct about this whole spondee thing.)
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 16th October 2010, 12:28pm)
This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
The Wikipedia article on Spondee (T-H-L-K-D) says the device is "unique in English verse as all other feet (excepting molossus, which has three stressed syllables, and dispondee, which has four stressed syllables) contain at least one unstressed syllable." But that WP article hasn't been touched by Ottava, FWIW.
Of course, "form the basis for" isn't the same as "ever appear in any form whatsoever within," but it's certainly different from what the WP article says at least. We all know that Ottava hates the Encyclopedia Britannica almost as much as Satan or Nancy Pelosi, so he'll probably tell us the EB article is a "crock of shit" or some such thing. Regardless, it does appear that this is a somewhat contentious issue within poetry-appreciation circles.
Ms. Amanda (btw, why does Ottava persist in using male pronouns for this person?) makes a valid point about the fact that To Autumn is referred to in the Iambic pentameter (T-H-L-K-D) article as an example of the form. Even if just 14 percent of the poem isn't in iambic pentameter, they should probably try to come up with a different example. (Again, though, this is assuming Ottava is substantially correct about this whole spondee thing.)
You mean Walter Jackson Bate. I can send you an image of the page if you want. He did win a Pulitzer Prize for his biography of Keats, after all. By the way, one line of To Autumn is iambic. However, this guy said the whole poem is when there are many lines that are far from it. The meter changes based on what the words are trying to say.
But reading over the example, I wonder. "To swell the gourd, and plump the hazel shells". "To swell" and "the gourd" fit. So does "and plump". But "the haz" "el shells" does not. "Hazel" as equal stress on both syllables no matter how I try to pronounce it unless it was "Hah! zel", and then it would be ridiculous. "All the fun's in how you say a thing" is clearly not an academic book.
People force meter in inappropriate ways. Instead, i reads more naturally that "the" is stressed with "hazel" having two unstressed syllables with "shells" as stressed. Thus, you would have a naturally fitting spondee right there with "plump the". If you read it, "plump" and "the" have the same stress just naturally.
And about "Amanda", Poetlister pretended to be a female to get away with such nonsense so I wont assume too much.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 4:56pm)
People force meter in inappropriate ways. Instead, i reads more naturally that "the" is stressed with "hazel" having two unstressed syllables with "shells" as stressed. Thus, you would have a naturally fitting spondee right there with "plump the". If you read it, "plump" and "the" have the same stress just naturally.
Surely "hazel" (ˈheɪz·əl) has stress on the first syllable, with the first vowel being spoken clearly as the "long a" diphthong and the second an indeterminate schwa. I'm pretty sure I would pronounce it something like:
T' swell th' gourd, 'n' plump th' haz'l shells
Looks like the author was trying for iambic pentameter, but some the other lines are dodgy, though not as bad as the Edward Taylor shit I had to read. Phillis Wheatley did better than either of them, as far as I'm concerned.
If I were writing this poem and expected anyone to read it aloud I would have made several of the dropped syllables clearer (in "gran'ry", "winn'wing", "flow'rs", etc.) or plaguishly avoided words for which this is necessary. "Season" in the first line is too awkward to reconcile, and attempting to stress monosyllabic conjunctions, prepositions, and articles in modern English is a recipe for fail.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 16th October 2010, 9:28am)
This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
Sure. You can't make a poem entirely out of spondee or even more than a few syllables. But it makes nice boom-boom or boom-boom-boom emphasis patches, especially with anapests. The Congo, referenced above, as great native drum beat sections of one alternating with the other, then patches of iambic, and the whole thing is very fine. Sort of a "You hear what the drums say, Bwana?" "Yes, there's trouble in the uplands from Nkubo..."
I didn't know that The Congo was so widely performed. Hopefully enough of this, and it will lose its sting like I wish I Was in Dixie (which Lincoln noted in the last week of his life was a pretty good song and he could finally enjoy it again). And the Confederate flag. And so on.
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 16th October 2010, 2:35pm)
Surely "hazel" (ˈheɪz·əl) has stress on the first syllable, with the first vowel being spoken clearly as the "long a" diphthong and the second an indeterminate schwa. I'm pretty sure I would pronounce it something like:
In 19th century British, that "schwa" was a "long vowel". You would have to pronounce the word HAY zel which is ridiculous. Either it is HAY ZEL with two stresses or hazel with no stresses.
I've timed it out and had other people speak - same amount of time per syllable with same emphasis on both. If you do a beat (i.e. have a drum or bang on a table) you will see that trying to do the emphasis on the first syllable is weird. It doesn't even sound like a word if you emphasize the one without the other.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 3:35pm)
I didn't know that The Congo was so widely performed. Hopefully enough of this, and it will lose its sting like I wish I Was in Dixie (which Lincoln noted in the last week of his life was a pretty good song and he could finally enjoy it again).
What's wrong with Dixie? I like Dixie and Pixie and Mr. Jinks
This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name:
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 7:42pm)
In 19th century British, that "schwa" was a "long vowel". You would have to pronounce the word HAY zel which is ridiculous. Either it is HAY ZEL with two stresses or hazel with no stresses.
Long vowel on the "e" strikes me as counter-intuitive given that it was spelled hæslin Old English, lacking an explicit second vowel sound.
QUOTE
I've timed it out and had other people speak - same amount of time per syllable with same emphasis on both. If you do a beat (i.e. have a drum or bang on a table) you will see that trying to do the emphasis on the first syllable is weird. It doesn't even sound like a word if you emphasize the one without the other.
Sorry, but are you not rhyming it with "nasal" and "appraisal"?
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This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
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To Autumn
