An Ethnography of WP?, An attempt to not hijack the welcome thread Options

[Julie]

So I decided to take the suggestion about starting a new thread.

To clarify a few things. My academic interest is in online gaming subcultures such as WoW. My interest with the WP community is purely personal. Whatever I come up with, which might amount to nothing at all (although I highly doubt that), is going directly to the WR community.

One of the biggest problems with online communities is that there is very little money in it. Corporations tend to still look at communities as part of marketing's domain, and online communities like WP or Ravelry are still very young. How do you filter out the truth from the lies? Is there an ethical responsibility to the well-being of community members? Or is the responsibility ultimately to showing success. Facebook, MySpace, WP, and Ravelry are perceived to be successful ventures and yet I believe that we can't even begin to conceive some of the problems that these communities encourage and how they will play out in society.

If it's so easy to lie online, what's stopping people from dissembling in the real world and what happens when lies become so normal as to be accepted? What's the next step?

I love statistics, but they don't tell the whole story. 98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college, but what happens to them during college? What happens to them after college? What happens when they go out into the real world? 98% might be a great number at first glance, but what happens next? The whole picture is usually more accurate than a sliver of a number. But here's the other thing with statistics, they can't explain the why, which is a lot more important than the number of editors leaving.

Now, as for the big gorilla? Don't make eye contact, don't do anything threatening and carry a really big bunch of bananas behind my back to use as a bribe if necessary

So, this is something that's been mulling around my brain since last night that I really want to explore. While Jon and Greg visibly posted their distrust, there had to have been others who felt the same way and just didn't say anything. How horrific was the betrayal? Or was it just a bunch of small amounts that eventually leads to a straw breaking a camel's back? And if it is chronic, why have we allowed it to happen? I have my theories and it stems from the concept that when we don't have a face with a name, it's very easy to not look at those names as real people. And when we stop dehumanize others it becomes easier to behave in ways that are anti-social.

[Jon Awbrey]

I can only advise you to go back to your advisor and get some advice on the meaning of the term "full disclosure".

Verifiable names and local habitations would be a good start, but only a start.

Jon Awbrey

[GlassBeadGame]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

[A Horse With No Name]

If it's so easy to lie online, what's stopping people from dissembling in the real world and what happens when lies become so normal as to be accepted? What's the next step?

Put one dollar in an envelope and mail it to Pastor Theo Ministries...

Now, as for the big gorilla?

Now now...Friday is just big boned.

[the fieryangel]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Strauss personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

[GlassBeadGame]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

[the fieryangel]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank-you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...and I'm in the Cahier de L'Herne as well...as far as the CNRS are concerned, you can call and ask, if you like...)

[GlassBeadGame]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...°

Ok, lets see it then. Along with provenance, please.

[the fieryangel]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...°

Ok, lets see it then. Along with provenance, please.

give me your address and I'll mail you a photocopy. As far as "provenance", would the handwritten envelope do?

[GlassBeadGame]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...°

Ok, lets see it then. Along with provenance, please.

give me your address and I'll mail you a photocopy. As far as "provenance", would the handwritten envelope do?

Post to Photobucket or something and post here. Lets not get privat-it- tee. The whole class should get to see. A envelope with return address/post mark would help. It would rebut at least recent fabrication if not forged itself.

[the fieryangel]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...°

Ok, lets see it then. Along with provenance, please.

give me your address and I'll mail you a photocopy. As far as "provenance", would the handwritten envelope do?

Post to Photobucket or something and post here. Lets not get privat-it- tee. The whole class should get to see. A envelope with return address/post mark would help. It would rebut at least recent fabrication if not forged itself.

Nope, a snail mail address or nothing at all. Under French law, I can send a copy via private mail, but I can't post a copy to the web without permission of the heirs. I'm not going to ask them for such a petty request as this.

I'll give you a compromise. I'll send a photocopy to Greg Kohs. (You do believe that Greg exists, don't you?)

He can say that it's the real McCoy or not. (or you can give me your real name and address and I can send the same materials to you.)

The point is: I have the letter. You know that I have the letter. What is the point of making me jump through the hoops?

(Of course, it would be much easier to simply give me your name and address, as civilized people do....)

[GlassBeadGame]

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

Where you from anyways? Even if that is true in your corner of world I would thing a basic understanding that all the world is not like your own high school would be some kind of prerequisite core of knowledge a person would have before becoming some kind of "anthropologist" or whatever you say you are.

As they say : Pictures plz

I knew Claude Lévi-Straus personally. I know all of the people who run the anthropology department at the CNRS in Paris. If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...)

Until then, this is completely bogus.

I have to agree. Not asserting expertise nor credentials is part of the cost of operating as pseudonym. BTW TFA that stuff about Claude and CNRS seems a little over the top...unless you intend to show documentation. After all merely having your name and basic id parameters known (and only against your will) doesn't establish such claims any better than a pseudonym.

How about a handwritten thank you letter for the birthday present?

(Okay, it's only a couple of lines, but he was over a hundred when he wrote it...and he thanked me, as opposed to President Sarkozy, who only got in the door...°

Ok, lets see it then. Along with provenance, please.

give me your address and I'll mail you a photocopy. As far as "provenance", would the handwritten envelope do?

Post to Photobucket or something and post here. Lets not get privat-it- tee. The whole class should get to see. A envelope with return address/post mark would help. It would rebut at least recent fabrication if not forged itself.

Nope, a snail mail address or nothing at all. Under French law, I can send a copy via private mail, but I can't post a copy to the web without permission of the heirs. I'm not going to ask them for such a petty request as this.

I'll give you a compromise. I'll send a photocopy to Greg Kohs. (You do believe that Greg exists, don't you?)

He can say that it's the real McCoy or not. (or you can give me your real name and address and I can send the same materials to you.)

The point is: I have the letter. You know that I have the letter. What is the point of making me jump through the hoops?

(Of course, it would be much easier to simply give me your name and address, as civilized people do....)

The point is you didn't prove it. But its about three steps removed on a tangent anyway. Proving it me really shouldn't matter that much to you. I certainly would not do it. I wouldn't need to say "look at me I know someone famous" to make my point either. But still you didn't prove it.

Better provenance would be from the estate itself in any event. Look, I haven't been unreasonable here. I did say I would accept the post mark as proof of sorts, even before you raised any reasons why it couldn't be provided.

[CharlotteWebb]

give me your address and I'll mail you a photocopy. As far as "provenance", would the handwritten envelope do?

Let's race to the bottom. Give me your SSN, mother's maiden name, and favorite color and I'll give you my address.

98% of a graduating high school class goes on to college...

[fineprint]Results not typical.[/fineprint]

No, a high school class where 98% can so much as read and write would be truly exceptional.

[everyking]

You see, Julie? We're all mad here...

[GlassBeadGame]

You see, Julie? We're all mad here...

And keep in mind...that's when I agree with FTA.

[Somey]

This thread has gone a bit off-topic already, hasn't it?

If this Julie person is a serious ethnologist, she needs to send me her full name, bibliography and the university where she has a post (a phone number will earn extra credit...) ... Until then, this is completely bogus.

I don't believe Ms. Julie here has claimed to be a "serious ethnologist" - rather, she's claimed to be a student of cultural anthropology and psychology, meaning not a degree-holder. So that isn't really an assertion of formal credentials, is it? I'd say that as long as she doesn't start asking other people for their identifying info (bearing in mind that she hasn't claimed to be working on a treatise or dissertation about WP, not yet anyway), we should try to avoid asking for her identifying info, at least publicly.

I mean, yeah, she could be Durova or Jonas or even Jimbo for all we know, but until we have a better reason to want to know for certain, I don't see why she shouldn't be treated in a reasonably privacy-respecting sort of way.

One of the biggest problems with online communities is that there is very little money in it. Corporations tend to still look at communities as part of marketing's domain, and online communities like WP or Ravelry are still very young. How do you filter out the truth from the lies? Is there an ethical responsibility to the well-being of community members? Or is the responsibility ultimately to showing success. Facebook, MySpace, WP, and Ravelry are perceived to be successful ventures and yet I believe that we can't even begin to conceive some of the problems that these communities encourage and how they will play out in society.

Having said what I said above, why mention Ravelry? You do know that's what Durova is into, right?

[Somey]

To answer the question, though, I'd have to say that a community site run by a commercial enterprise, particularly one whose sole focus is operating that website, is a whole different kettle of fish than Wikipedia when it comes to concern for the well-being of users. It all basically boils down to how easy it is to get the operator to take things down when a reasonable request is made, and of course there's also the issue of how the operator deals with "legal threats" and public relations handling. When you give too much authority to the anonymous volunteer community, you risk having your site turned into a kind of schoolyard, to be dominated by bullies who have their own moral code, which in turn is much less stringent than that of the outside world.

If people who would otherwise bully others are occasionally taught the basic lesson that any piece of content is removable via an appeal to "higher authority," they'll be more careful about what sort of content they contribute. However, if those same people are simply banned, insulted, and/or dehumanized, or even if their favored content is deleted by other bullies, they won't go away - they'll just keep fighting.

[carbuncle]

To clarify a few things. My academic interest is in online gaming subcultures such as WoW. My interest with the WP community is purely personal. Whatever I come up with, which might amount to nothing at all (although I highly doubt that), is going directly to the WR community.

One of the biggest problems with online communities is that there is very little money in it. Corporations tend to still look at communities as part of marketing's domain, and online communities like WP or Ravelry are still very young. How do you filter out the truth from the lies? Is there an ethical responsibility to the well-being of community members? Or is the responsibility ultimately to showing success. Facebook, MySpace, WP, and Ravelry are perceived to be successful ventures and yet I believe that we can't even begin to conceive some of the problems that these communities encourage and how they will play out in society.

You have experience with WoW and similar online gaming subcultures and yet you suggest that there is "very little money in it"? Really?

[Somey]

You have experience with WoW and similar online gaming subcultures and yet you suggest that there is "very little money in it"? Really?

Unless she meant that there's very little money in it for the gamers...?

Still, I would imagine that it's a lot like any media enterprise - only the small handful of major players and top-dogs make any serious money, and everybody else is just sort of scraping by. (Though I could be totally wrong, of course.)

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

What is it about idiots ... or relatively normal and intelligent people acting idiotically ... that stops them from quoting themselves 3 or 4 times on discussion forums?

We got up to 9 times - and half a metre of off forum, off topic, interpersonal scrolling - this time.

Look, if this was the Wikipedia, folks would be much more interested in "pictures plz" of you and the gorilla with the big boner ... preferably an animated ogg.

Don't worry Julie, Glassbead just welcomes everyone like that, after which he settles down, often apologizes sweetly and become an intelligent person again.

Me, I never made the intelligence ranks.

So, apart from drawing attention to yourself, what do you want?

Now now ... Friday is just big boned.

This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy: Sun 29th November 2009, 1:50am