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William Connolley (and Polargeo) vs Lar, Global warming wars |
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Abd |
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Permanent link to two discussions on Talk:WMCthe first, the section FYI, shows Connolley dismissing Cla pointing out the problems with WMC (and the cabal) as an attempt to get revenge: (belated) as I understand it, I pissed of Cla 6 years ago and he is still trying to get revenge William M. Connolley (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)The second is a discussion with ChronieGal in which she "jokes" about the cabal. ChronieGal clearly knows that there are "groups" and that they are, in her opinion, "camped." I included CG in the cabal evidence at RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley because she had clearly established her position in a "camp" on one side of a series of issues, and the most important would be efforts to block and ban editors opposed to or by WMC et al. She later claimed that she had been libeled by the RfAr, which is why it's blanked. In fact, I'd simply pointed to her behavior, she had not been accused of wrongdoing. But she (and ArbComm) took "cabal" as an accusation of wrongdoing, that's part of the doublespeak that has made it difficult to address the cabal problem, and that's why I broke the taboo at the RfAr. ArbComm does not like community taboos being broken. I can understand, in a way. But it's also necessary, and my editing rights weren't as important as breaking that taboo. Now comes Lar who again points out the obvious. He uses the term "cadre" for what I called the "cabal." But he's also a respected admin, and it's not as likely that he'll be ignored if this goes to ArbComm. After all, it's trivial to establish with evidence the long-term "connected" activity of this group of editors, Cla is doing it and I may assist as well, though I can't assist on-wiki because of the MYOB ban, which was a clever but futile device employed by an ArbComm majority to prevent me from commenting on matters where I have detailed knowledge. Current events in the GW area are remarkable. Hipocrite has actually started to make sense, urging his (her) faction to be patient and to negotiate consensus. In other words, to do what they should have been doing from years ago.
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Cla68 |
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I never said that Mr. Souza wasn't polite. QUOTE(Abd @ Thu 6th May 2010, 2:24pm) Permanent link to two discussions on Talk:WMCthe first, the section FYI, shows Connolley dismissing Cla pointing out the problems with WMC (and the cabal) as an attempt to get revenge: (belated) as I understand it, I pissed of Cla 6 years ago and he is still trying to get revenge William M. Connolley (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC) That discussion is interesting, because they openly give their opinion that this complaint is some conspiracy by me and others to get WMC in trouble. WMC and his buddies don't seem to understand that there can be consequences when they treat new editors rudely on global warming talk pages. In fact, they appear to be in denial! After my own experience a few years ago that WMC referred to, I continued monitoring the global warming pages off and on. After a few years of observing WMC and Stephan Schulz repeatedly insulting and bullying editors who tried to suggest changes to "their" articles, I finally decided that it was time to get reinvolved. In my opinion, the fact that this group is so readily eager to justify their actions and violations of Wikipedia's policies reaffirms my opinion that these guys are fanatics. I think WMC's group receives a lot of empathy from Wikipedia's editing and admin community because many people believe that group is looking out for the "settled" position on climate change. What Wikipedia's administrators and other participants need to understand is that WMC's group represents climate science about as much as the John Birch Society represents American conservative libertarianism. Within the climate science community, as I understand it, there is wide variation of opinion on the nature and severity of modern climate warming. WMC and his group represents the alarmist faction, which also includes, as I've said before, Dr. Mann's RealClimate group of associated researchers, some of whom were caught in the ClimateGate emails giving each other advice on how not to release data to climate change skeptics. It is not in Wikipedia's best interest to have these guys running the global warming articles.
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Sxeptomaniac |
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 3:21pm) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Thu 6th May 2010, 11:14pm) I never said that Mr. Souza wasn't polite.
Then why tar and feather him? Because he "politely" defends abhorrent behavior, and subtly engages in it himself. Here he is, galloping in to defend his buddy Guettarda, for example. I hate dragging up old stuff too often, but I think it's relevant to this situation. Rereading it, it still amazes me how few were willing to understand why I was so pissed off in that case.
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Ottava |
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QUOTE(Sxeptomaniac @ Mon 10th May 2010, 10:00pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 3:21pm) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Thu 6th May 2010, 11:14pm) I never said that Mr. Souza wasn't polite.
Then why tar and feather him? Because he "politely" defends abhorrent behavior, and subtly engages in it himself. Here he is, galloping in to defend his buddy Guettarda, for example. I hate dragging up old stuff too often, but I think it's relevant to this situation. Rereading it, it still amazes me how few were willing to understand why I was so pissed off in that case. You don't block people for politely doing anything. Quite the contrary, suggesting he should be blocked for politely acting would promote people being nasty, which is destructive. If only everyone acted as polite as he does in disputes, then the Wiki would be a lot better. Here is what he said: "Right, Sxeptomaniac. So you're not satisfied with a remark being deleted, you want to keep repeating it and calling another user a liar as well as demanding that the user retracts the remark. I'm sure that when you take up issues that an indefinitely blocked user has told you about, you do so in good faith. I'd hope that you take care to disregard the sort of personal attacks that are acceptable on another site, but I'd also hope that you can also accept that views on issues differ in good faith and that someone you describe as behaving like "a foaming-at-the-mouth religious fundamentalist" may actually have a valid point." That is pretty good advice. Don't mix personal attacks with criticism if you want the criticism to have any legitimacy. This post has been edited by Ottava:
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Sxeptomaniac |
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 2:44pm) QUOTE(Sxeptomaniac @ Mon 10th May 2010, 10:00pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 6th May 2010, 3:21pm) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Thu 6th May 2010, 11:14pm) I never said that Mr. Souza wasn't polite.
Then why tar and feather him? Because he "politely" defends abhorrent behavior, and subtly engages in it himself. Here he is, galloping in to defend his buddy Guettarda, for example. I hate dragging up old stuff too often, but I think it's relevant to this situation. Rereading it, it still amazes me how few were willing to understand why I was so pissed off in that case. You don't block people for politely doing anything. Quite the contrary, suggesting he should be blocked for politely acting would promote people being nasty, which is destructive. If only everyone acted as polite as he does in disputes, then the Wiki would be a lot better. Here is what he said: "Right, Sxeptomaniac. So you're not satisfied with a remark being deleted, you want to keep repeating it and calling another user a liar as well as demanding that the user retracts the remark. I'm sure that when you take up issues that an indefinitely blocked user has told you about, you do so in good faith. I'd hope that you take care to disregard the sort of personal attacks that are acceptable on another site, but I'd also hope that you can also accept that views on issues differ in good faith and that someone you describe as behaving like "a foaming-at-the-mouth religious fundamentalist" may actually have a valid point." That is pretty good advice. Don't mix personal attacks with criticism if you want the criticism to have any legitimacy. What about that whole series of events looks like criticism? I sure didn't say my point was to criticize. I thought at the time I made it abundantly clear my point was that I find making up crap about me is unacceptable and I will not simply stand by in the name of some twisted form of "civility" while someone attempts to game the rules in order to undermine me. After all, as some pointed out, Guettarda's lie that I was threatening to intentionally introduce POV into WP articles was somewhat serious in terms of WP policy (potentially blockable as "preventing harm to WP"). If you payed attention to what you read, including some of the links, you'll find I gave Guettarda two very easy ways to get me to retract my claim that the statement was a lie: retract it as a mistake, or prove it. Instead, Guettarda tried to do an end-run around true civility, as well as policy, by claiming I made a personal attack. So no, it's not good advice. It's "advice" from someone who wanted me to shut up and go away, so that an untrue personal attack could be treated as true simply by not being properly challenged. He tries to question my motives. He brings up irrelevant details to try to make me look bad (associating me with a "banned user" and WR). He tries to color the argument as an ongoing content dispute, which it also was not. None of that was directed at me; it was intended for anyone else reading the thread. Dave was trying to be underhanded and manipulative, not offer good advice. You once seemed a reasonably intelligent person, Ottava. I'm surprised you would so easily fall for such manipulation.
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Sxeptomaniac |
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 11th May 2010, 7:04am) QUOTE(Sxeptomaniac @ Tue 11th May 2010, 3:00pm) t that whole series of events looks like criticism? I sure didn't say my point was to criticize. I thought at the time I made it abundantly clear my point was that I find making up crap about me is unacceptable and I will not simply stand by in the name of some twisted form of "civility" while someone attempts to game the rules in order to undermine me.
If you want to rage at someone while they are doing something you feel "abusive", and they are being polite while you are acting completely irrationale, they won. Well, looking at things, I don't see it that way. I was not irrational. I followed dispute resolution procedures, I was clear about what I wanted and why I felt I had been right, and I quit when I had taken it as far as reasonable. So no, I was not behaving irrationally. I made it clear I was angry, but that was the point. Focused anger can be a useful tool when addressing clear wrongs. I suppose the result could be considered a draw, though I tend to think I came out somewhat ahead. I did not get a retraction, but I made a very clear point, and was not sanctioned, nor was I required to remove my replies calling out Guettarda's statement. While not many spoke up, there were several uninvolved editors who clearly did agree Guettarda's behavior was suspect. Considering I'm a nobody on WP and Guettarda's an admin, the fact that I walked away from the confrontation without so much as a rebuke from an uninvolved admin says a lot, I believe. I believe Guettarda hoped I'd become irrational due to his provoke, so another admin would have an excuse to block me, but I never gave them the opportunity.
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Milton Roe |
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QUOTE(Lar @ Tue 11th May 2010, 7:41pm) QUOTE(Sxeptomaniac @ Tue 11th May 2010, 11:24am) I believe Guettarda hoped I'd become irrational due to his provoke, so another admin would have an excuse to block me, but I never gave them the opportunity.
SOP with that bunch, I'd say. Good for you that you managed to keep your cool. I see they're after LHvU now. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif) Prediction: LinusHeard vanPelt is eventually going to Speak Truth to Power once too often. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/obliterate.gif) Above: illustration of LesJean danArc
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Cla68 William Connolley (and Polargeo) vs Lar Malleus
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