ArbCom is broken, Jimbo's response, more ArbCom Options

[gomi]

Here

I have long thought that a good solution would be some intermediate courts ...

but then goes right to this idea:

... or - as I am now thinking - randomized juries ...

Now where have I heard that idea? Yes, Kelly Martin proposed it over three years ago.

It won't work though. Wikipidiots are too inbred.

[Kelly Martin]

I just wrote Jimbo demanding that he give me fair credit for the idea:

Jimmy,

Please note for the record that I have proposed the idea of randomized juries on Wikipedia several times, dating back to at least 2007 (http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/...litism-and.html). The proposal was discussed at some length on Steve Dunlop’s now-defunct Wikback forum, and in other places. Others have carried forward the discussion onto Wikipedia (see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...ldid=222591442), and it is a perennial discussion on Wikipedia Review (http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=S...ndpost&p=124676, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=S...ndpost&p=193779, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=S...ndpost&p=260038, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=S...dpost&p=267191).

All I ask is that you give me due credit for the idea.

Regards,

Kelly

[Malleus]

Here

I have long thought that a good solution would be some intermediate courts ...

but then goes right to this idea:

... or - as I am now thinking - randomized juries ...

Now where have I heard that idea? Yes, Kelly Martin proposed it over three years ago.

It won't work though. Wikipidiots are too inbred.

I think you make a fundamental mistake in believing that "Wikipidiots" are a single breed.

[powercorrupts]

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

[Malleus]

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.

[powercorrupts]

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

This post has been edited by powercorrupts:

[EricBarbour]

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/yecch.gif) to both of you.

[Malleus]

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

A translation into English would be good.

[Craftyminion]

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

Rod? I've always thought of Malley as being Giano's nastier, evil twin.

[Malleus]

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

Rod? I've always thought of Malley as being Giano's nastier, evil twin.

That's the nicest thing I've heard today. Thanks!

[SB_Johnny]

This is interesting... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

[Casliber]

This is interesting... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

errr, why?

[Abd]

This is interesting... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

errr, why?

Yeah, Jimbo's answer is very standard and expected and appears to be accurate as well.

It's an excuse for the WMF and Jimbo to step back and do nothing even when they see blatant abuse. In fact, there is nothing set up for the "community" to develop a true consensus and coherently express it, and attempts to set up structures that might have led to this have been crushed by "the community," which, in practice, is a warped subset of the real editorial community.

That's a result of the institutional structures and practices that Jimbo set up or allowed when he was still taking an active role.

[Sololol]

It's an excuse for the WMF and Jimbo to step back and do nothing even when they see blatant abuse. In fact, there is nothing set up for the "community" to develop a true consensus and coherently express it, and attempts to set up structures that might have led to this have been crushed by "the community," which, in practice, is a warped subset of the real editorial community.

That's a result of the institutional structures and practices that Jimbo set up or allowed when he was still taking an active role.

As he said the last time this happened "I have no idea what I could possibly do about it [after the fact]." Nothings substantially changed since that last incident. It's sort of miraculous that all of this didn't happen sooner.

[EricBarbour]

Interesting, how divided the comments have been. It shows a deep schism in the ever-glorious "community". Count this with the flap over the behaviour of one admin/editor who has done a lot of worthwhile work, and a lot of stupid warfare and backstabbing. I presume that Wikipedia's userbase will never agree on Cirt's value as an admin, and that such schisms will only worsen with time.....

Sometimes, that place needs a "benevolent dictator". Jimbo ain't it, he's just a camp follower now, who enjoys basking in the media glow. "Who, me, make a decision???" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/yak.gif)

This post has been edited by EricBarbour:

[powercorrupts]

I was going to make a thread of this, but I'll quote it here.

Arbcom and WMF
(from Jimbo's talk)

What exactly is the relationship between the Arbcom and the WMF? Does the Arbcom have any kind of corporate standing? --Prioryman

Aside from being on the functionaries mailing list and some current or former arbs doing various kinds of work with the organization, nothing official. They have lines of communication that allow them to communicate concerns to the WMF and cooperate on certain issues, but that's about it AFAIK. --Throwaway85

The Wikimedia Foundation respects and supports the traditional arrangements of the community, which often predate the Foundation. I don't know what the phrase "corporate standing" means. --Jimbo Wales

If I had a guess, I would say they are asking if ArbCom has the ability to speak on behalf the WMF. Or simply, if ArbCom's judgements are to be assumed as having the support of the foundation. I am presuming the answer is no. --Resolute

Right, so for each of those questions in turn. First, ArbCom does not have the ability to speak on behalf of the Foundation. Second, the Foundation supports our traditional constitutional arrangements (which, in the English Wikipedia, means a whole set of complex institutions and traditions, including my role, the role of ArbCom, etc.) in a general way, but of course these are community processes, not Foundation processes.--Jimbo Wales

And on a related but possibly more topical note, will the Foundation cooperate with ArbCom and the community on putting in order our policies/practices on private data protection and retention? --Kotniski

I'm sure the Foundation is willing to help out, but it is unclear to me what should be changed in this case. It seems that the breach was not in any systems of the Wikimedia Foundation (at least, that it my understanding so far). What policies/practices do you recommend that would necessitate the Foundation's help? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really interested in thinking this through.) --Jimbo Wales

He uses the word "traditional" twice. Personally, I still stand by my comment above. The guy sounds like a classic dictator to me.

[Kelly Martin]

The guy sounds like a classic dictator to me.

Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

[EricBarbour]

Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[LessHorrid vanU]

Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

Not that there are a shortage of errant Pucks to be found, either.

[Milton Roe]

Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

Not that there are a shortage of errant Pucks to be found, either.

And more than one Faery Queene, for sure. And a Sycorax in Canada. And a few Ariels (some of whom have been freed and defected to WR, or else disappeared). And several Calibans. Ban, ban, Caliban.

"Two of these fellows you must know and own; this thing of darkness I acknowledge mine."

--Jimbo, when asked about Essjay