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> The holy shit slide into off-topic land, split from the other holy shit thread
communicat
post Tue 29th November 2011, 12:49am
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The apparent ease with which some admins and/or their accomplices are able to secretly manipulate and/or falsify or otherwise interfere with article edit histories -- without anything at all showing on the record -- leads me to suspect their technical capabilities may go beyond mere scriptkiddie stuff.
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EricBarbour
post Tue 29th November 2011, 12:57am
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Mon 28th November 2011, 3:57pm) *

If you want to attack Wikipedia, you're going to have to write a customized attack vector, and there just aren't enough hackers with both the interest and the skill for this to have happened yet.

That's basically what I was saying. They don't attract the interest of the really dangerous ones--
mostly because there's no money in cracking the WP database. I've seen a lot of alleged "1337
h4xors" over the years. Almost all of them are like WP admins, smug teenaged boys with ADD
and "authority issues". Usually more interested in pirating game warez than in any real "hacking".
Legends in their own minds etc. They could write one of those reformatting bots (which helps
explain why there are so damn many on WP today), but serious Linux server cracking will always
be beyond them.

One of the few favorable things that WP can claim, and I've said before: it is one of the largest
successful uses of open-source software for a major website. It didn't cost hundreds of millions of
dollars to assemble, it just took several years, and a lot of fooling developers into being enthusiastic
about the "mission". That enthusiasm is slowly evaporating.

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Tue 29th November 2011, 1:03am
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Maunus
post Tue 29th November 2011, 4:08am
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QUOTE(radek @ Mon 28th November 2011, 8:57pm) *


The thing is the "critiques of wikipedia" don't necessarily come in a single Reader's Digest concise post - actually, at one point someone WAS making a list. A lot of that is because they tend to unfold in threads over time. Even big things like Essjay or whatever didn't happen with a single post. Of course a lot of threads go off-topic, hit dead-ends, get hijacked by Ottava, etc. And of course, different people have different critiques, some of which clash with each other. So you got to work a bit and read around and be patient and figure out the culture of the site.

And the ambiance must be cultivated carefully - otherwise people like you wouldn't come here in the first place.


Of course not, that's why I registered as a user to keep following the news as they come in - but perhaps you are right that I should have stuck to lurking for awhile. Perhaps I ought to go back to lurking now...
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mbz1
post Tue 29th November 2011, 4:21am
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QUOTE(Maunus @ Tue 29th November 2011, 4:08am) *

QUOTE(radek @ Mon 28th November 2011, 8:57pm) *


The thing is the "critiques of wikipedia" don't necessarily come in a single Reader's Digest concise post - actually, at one point someone WAS making a list. A lot of that is because they tend to unfold in threads over time. Even big things like Essjay or whatever didn't happen with a single post. Of course a lot of threads go off-topic, hit dead-ends, get hijacked by Ottava, etc. And of course, different people have different critiques, some of which clash with each other. So you got to work a bit and read around and be patient and figure out the culture of the site.

And the ambiance must be cultivated carefully - otherwise people like you wouldn't come here in the first place.


Of course not, that's why I registered as a user to keep following the news as they come in - but perhaps you are right that I should have stuck to lurking for awhile. Perhaps I ought to go back to lurking now...

No, you ought not. I believe you were attacked unfairly. I am sure that you came here not to get popularity, but to make a difference on wikipedia.
Some people here dislike wikipedia so much that they want it dead, but with all it's problems wikipedia is probably to be around for a long time, and the more wikipedians will be trying to understand the problems and to fix them, the better.
So, welcome to you, Maunus!

This post has been edited by mbz1: Tue 29th November 2011, 4:25am
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communicat
post Tue 29th November 2011, 3:14pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 29th November 2011, 2:57am) *

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Mon 28th November 2011, 3:57pm) *

If you want to attack Wikipedia, you're going to have to write a customized attack vector, and there just aren't enough hackers with both the interest and the skill for this to have happened yet.

That's basically what I was saying. They don't attract the interest of the really dangerous ones--
mostly because there's no money in cracking the WP database. I've seen a lot of alleged "1337
h4xors" over the years. Almost all of them are like WP admins, smug teenaged boys with ADD
and "authority issues". Usually more interested in pirating game warez than in any real "hacking".
Legends in their own minds etc. They could write one of those reformatting bots (which helps
explain why there are so damn many on WP today), but serious Linux server cracking will always
be beyond them.

One of the few favorable things that WP can claim, and I've said before: it is one of the largest
successful uses of open-source software for a major website. It didn't cost hundreds of millions of
dollars to assemble, it just took several years, and a lot of fooling developers into being enthusiastic
about the "mission". That enthusiasm is slowly evaporating.

An attack in the form of serious hacking is IMO somewhat beside the point, in the context of what might happen in retaliation if certain, troublesome admins are kicked out. Fiddling anonymously and off the record with article edit histories, which doesn't require any hacking expertise as such, can (and does, in my experience) result in endless acrimony, disruption, battlefield conditions and editorial chaos. Certain existing, troublesome admins together with their accomplices know very well how to accomplish that, without anything ever showing on the record. I know this for a fact, and so do a number of other disenchanted/disenfranchised former wikipedians. It is common practise.
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thekohser
post Tue 29th November 2011, 8:04pm
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QUOTE(mbz1 @ Mon 28th November 2011, 11:21pm) *

No, you ought not. I believe you were attacked unfairly. I am sure that you came here not to get popularity, but to make a difference on wikipedia.
Some people here dislike wikipedia so much that they want it dead, but with all it's problems wikipedia is probably to be around for a long time, and the more wikipedians will be trying to understand the problems and to fix them, the better.
So, welcome to you, Maunus!


But, Maunus... if you do stay and keep chiming in here, I would like for you to promise us one thing... when (not if, but when) you become discouraged with Wikipedia and decide to quit it altogether, will you please publish here in big, green letters...

QUOTE
You guys sure were right about Wikipedia. It's evil!
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Maunus
post Wed 30th November 2011, 1:37am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 29th November 2011, 8:04pm) *


But, Maunus... if you do stay and keep chiming in here, I would like for you to promise us one thing... when (not if, but when) you become discouraged with Wikipedia and decide to quit it altogether, will you please publish here in big, green letters...

QUOTE
You guys sure were right about Wikipedia. It's evil!



That happens every four or five months...
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Ottava
post Wed 30th November 2011, 4:22pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 29th November 2011, 3:04pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Mon 28th November 2011, 11:21pm) *

No, you ought not. I believe you were attacked unfairly. I am sure that you came here not to get popularity, but to make a difference on wikipedia.
Some people here dislike wikipedia so much that they want it dead, but with all it's problems wikipedia is probably to be around for a long time, and the more wikipedians will be trying to understand the problems and to fix them, the better.
So, welcome to you, Maunus!


But, Maunus... if you do stay and keep chiming in here, I would like for you to promise us one thing... when (not if, but when) you become discouraged with Wikipedia and decide to quit it altogether, will you please publish here in big, green letters...

QUOTE
You guys sure were right about Wikipedia. It's evil!




I don't think that is possible - Maunus was gleefully part of the "evil" of Wikipedia. I love this one where a person decides that the Persian Empire no longer exists, turns it into a redirect, and 9 people wanting to keep it as it was (i.e. a 60k page) were not proof of a "consensus" to not defacto delete the page. 64% of people area against a proposed change and that isn't enough to stop the change. A real wacko reinterpretation of standards in order to defend some friends in their absolute insanity.
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communicat
post Wed 30th November 2011, 5:00pm
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With all this talk of WP’s predestined failure, I have a rather more sceptical approach to the idea of organizational progress or failure. It is a fallacy to hold that progress is unmixed; that technological progress goes along with moral progress, or to postulate there can be measurable progress in the quality of human endeavour in the world of knowledge, of which WP is ostensibly a part. In the world of knowledge as in any other, growth and decay are inextricably linked. There is no composition without decomposition: not just a rearranging or falling apart, but a rotting to the bone to bring to light the essentially dysfunctional elements of the structure.

Speaking of which, and given the toxicity and extent of interpersonal abrasiveness here at WR, I wonder if this site is not doomed to become an imitator of the very people and modus operandi that WR presumes to be combating? Is WR justified in overlooking its own human costs? I think not. There’s clearly something amiss in a forum that claims to have more than 1000 members while in practise it’s dominated by only a comparative handful of combative “regulars”, each competing against the other to demonstrate how witty or “educated” they are. This to the hypocritical detriment of any real solidarity in exposing and opposing the WP malpractises WR claims to abhor.

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Vigilant
post Wed 30th November 2011, 7:15pm
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QUOTE(communicat @ Wed 30th November 2011, 5:00pm) *

With all this talk of WP’s predestined failure, I have a rather more sceptical approach to the idea of organizational progress or failure. It is a fallacy to hold that progress is unmixed; that technological progress goes along with moral progress, or to postulate there can be measurable progress in the quality of human endeavour in the world of knowledge, of which WP is ostensibly a part. In the world of knowledge as in any other, growth and decay are inextricably linked. There is no composition without decomposition: not just a rearranging or falling apart, but a rotting to the bone to bring to light the essentially dysfunctional elements of the structure.

Speaking of which, and given the toxicity and extent of interpersonal abrasiveness here at WR, I wonder if this site is not doomed to become an imitator of the very people and modus operandi that WR presumes to be combating? Is WR justified in overlooking its own human costs? I think not. There’s clearly something amiss in a forum that claims to have more than 1000 members while in practise it’s dominated by only a comparative handful of combative “regulars”, each competing against the other to demonstrate how witty or “educated” they are. This to the hypocritical detriment of any real solidarity in exposing and opposing the WP malpractises WR claims to abhor.

Which is in no way a reflection of your contributions here, I'm sure.
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Maunus
post Wed 30th November 2011, 9:09pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 30th November 2011, 4:22pm) *


I don't think that is possible - Maunus was gleefully part of the "evil" of Wikipedia. I love this one where a person decides that the Persian Empire no longer exists, turns it into a redirect, and 9 people wanting to keep it as it was (i.e. a 60k page) were not proof of a "consensus" to not defacto delete the page. 64% of people area against a proposed change and that isn't enough to stop the change. A real wacko reinterpretation of standards in order to defend some friends in their absolute insanity.


Yes, I remember how that comment made you call for me to be desysopped immediately - for disagreeing with you. I really am very happy that you are gone from wikipedia never to come back. That indeed is glee...
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SB_Johnny
post Wed 30th November 2011, 9:17pm
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QUOTE(Maunus @ Wed 30th November 2011, 4:09pm) *

Yes, I remember how that comment made you call for me to be desysopped immediately - for disagreeing with you. I really am very happy that you are gone from wikipedia never to come back. That indeed is glee...

I've had to remove "glee" from my vocabulary, since it invariably makes me think of whatever Journey song they converted to a cappella. In general, the smart people here have long since put Ottava on ignore.

I'm open to suggestions about what portions of this thread should be thrown in the annex, because it started out as an interesting topic.
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cookiehead
post Wed 30th November 2011, 11:56pm
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I've recently edited a few articles. I can't help it, I'm a compulsive proofreader, and can't stand to read half of the shit I find on WP without editing it. The copy is horrible in almost every article I find.

So after a few years of getting frustrated with Wikinazi's, I tried to stay away. Came back recently, and find it's more frustrating than ever to edit Wikipedia. You're constantly reverted by people who have no idea how to write a proper sentence, let alone a coherent paragraph. Most of them are obviously running up "edit counts" (even see them update their profiles with it).

Reverts are made to a series of edits that greatly improve on grammar, coherence, etc, because some article "owner" doesn't like their original crap being improved.

Actually had one multi-alias clown try and frame me as an anti-semite yesterday over someone else's editing. Next I'll be accused of Scientology.

Who really wants to improve Wikipedia when these Wiki Nazi's are intent on playing social media games over ensuring that articles are written above a retarded child's level?

There. Steam let off. Thank you, WR.

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cookiehead
post Thu 1st December 2011, 12:10am
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Here's what started some WP Twat and his other alias after my ass. While this despicable human being was trying to remove WP:RS (Espn) from Bernie Fine's article, I restored another editor's edit of a very reliable, and very applicable fact about Bernie Fine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=461206269

This Baseball Bugger must be a Syracuse grad or a pedo himself.

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Alison
post Thu 1st December 2011, 2:03am
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Annex!
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Ottava
post Thu 1st December 2011, 2:26am
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QUOTE(Maunus @ Wed 30th November 2011, 4:09pm) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 30th November 2011, 4:22pm) *


I don't think that is possible - Maunus was gleefully part of the "evil" of Wikipedia. I love this one where a person decides that the Persian Empire no longer exists, turns it into a redirect, and 9 people wanting to keep it as it was (i.e. a 60k page) were not proof of a "consensus" to not defacto delete the page. 64% of people area against a proposed change and that isn't enough to stop the change. A real wacko reinterpretation of standards in order to defend some friends in their absolute insanity.


Yes, I remember how that comment made you call for me to be desysopped immediately - for disagreeing with you. I really am very happy that you are gone from wikipedia never to come back. That indeed is glee...



Instead of saying "I was a total douche for completely lying about all the rules and policies to try and support a few friends who wished only to destroy pages in an unwarranted manner" you just keep up with it. The thing is, my contributions are far superior to anything you would have produced and you have no defense above. You basically are worthless.
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EricBarbour
post Thu 1st December 2011, 3:04am
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yecch.gif Yes, someone please remove the whining above.......
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Maunus
post Thu 1st December 2011, 4:40am
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 30th November 2011, 9:17pm) *


I've had to remove "glee" from my vocabulary, since it invariably makes me think of whatever Journey song they converted to a cappella. In general, the smart people here have long since put Ottava on ignore.


Thanks for the idea! I've never been on a forum where that option existed before - that is sooo useful!
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communicat
post Thu 1st December 2011, 6:54pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 29th November 2011, 10:04pm) *


QUOTE
You guys sure were right about Wikipedia. It's evil!



Nah, the real evil is the deficient education system that produces supposedly "educated" wackeypedians and the warped thinking that underlies WP's so-called policy of consensus. It is a policy that is diametrically opposed to what is known as divergent thinking, which in turn is an essential prerequisite for creative thinking. For more on divergent thinking -- or the absence thereof -- take a look at Changing Education Paradigms
http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQGjhz0LAQFIX2S...h?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

This post has been edited by communicat: Thu 1st December 2011, 7:03pm
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cookiehead
post Thu 1st December 2011, 7:41pm
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According to this Barnstar Genius, I've made a personal attack on my user page....on no one. Tough to do, but I did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_Bushranger
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