FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2933 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php)
FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2943 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php)
The 6th Annual WP:DICK of Distinction Awards -
     
 
The Wikipedia Review: A forum for discussion and criticism of Wikipedia
Wikipedia Review Op-Ed Pages

Welcome, Guest! ( Log In | Register )

 
Closed TopicStart new topic
> The 6th Annual WP:DICK of Distinction Awards, Nominations close Tuesday, January 17
gomi
post
Post #41


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined:
Member No.: 565




Our staff member Hersch normally handles these duties, but it is well into January without a word, so I thought I would kick off the initial nominating process for our annual awards pageant.

For those unfamiliar with our awards, here are links to some previous year's winners:

The 2007 WP:DICK of Distinction Awards
Poll: The 2008 WP:DICK of Distinction® Awards Pageant
Poll: The 2010 Wikipedia Review "WP:DICK of Distinction"

Traditionally, our categories have been:

For the bad guys ...

WP:DICK of Distinction -- for all-around rottenness by an admin

The Tag-Team Event -- for group evil-doing, usually in support of some bias

Miss Incongeniality -- for the worst (non-gender-specific) biter of gentler Wiki souls

Most Vexatious Litigant -- a new award in 2011, honoring DICKs who run too often or loudly to the various "enforcement" schemes that Wikipedia offers, or those within those schemes who encourage them through bombastic and/or hubris.

and for the good guys...

The Straight Shooter -- an award for honest admins

The Cojones de latón -- for the non-admin who has distinguished himself (or herself) in combat with the cabal


There have also been new award categories proposed, including

The TL;DR Award -- self-descriptive. This was also suggested as the Impotent ArbCom Logorrheaic or Tedious Windbag award, but we determined that this would sway it too narrowly toward one individual.

Let the games begin!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post
Post #42


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined:
Member No.: 911



Ashley Van "Fae" for Vexatious.

Sanger for Cojones.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Fusion
post
Post #43


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 346
Joined:
Member No.: 71,526



QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 6th January 2012, 8:56pm) *

The TL;DR Award -- self-descriptive. This was also suggested as the Impotent ArbCom Logorrheaic or Tedious Windbag award, but we determined that this would sway it too narrowly toward one individual.

Is there any point in nominating our good friend Ottava? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif) Or has he already won it?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
EricBarbour
post
Post #44


blah
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 5,919
Joined:
Member No.: 5,066



Don't even mention Ottava. When you "reward" him, it enables him.

I second Greg's nomination. Except that I'd like to put Mr. Van Haeften up for DICK. Because he has one, and has posted photos of it on Commons many times......
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rhindle
post
Post #45


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 327
Joined:
Member No.: 6,834



I'd have to add Willbeback for vexatious litigant for what he did to Cla by adding content to LaRouche that cla was topic banned from, trying to get him retroactively in trouble for it.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Fusion
post
Post #46


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 346
Joined:
Member No.: 71,526



OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Herschelkrustofsky
post
Post #47


Member
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130



Thanks, Gomi -- I've been a bit preoccupied, and we do need to get this underway or the lesser-known contests like the Oscars and Emmies may overshadow ours.


QUOTE(Rhindle @ Fri 6th January 2012, 2:30pm) *

I'd have to add Willbeback for vexatious litigant for what he did to Cla by adding content to LaRouche that cla was topic banned from, trying to get him retroactively in trouble for it.


Actually, I should think that that stunt would catapult Mr. Beback into full DICK status. He's never won the main honors, although he has been a front runner (so to speak.)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kelly Martin
post
Post #48


Bring back the guttersnipes!
********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
Joined:
From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696



QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:44pm) *

OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.
Snort. You must be joking.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Fusion
post
Post #49


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 346
Joined:
Member No.: 71,526



QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Fri 6th January 2012, 10:59pm) *

QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:44pm) *

OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.
Snort. You must be joking.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif) OK. I shall not canvass you to vote for him.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
radek
post
Post #50


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651



QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:44pm) *

OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.


What has he done lately? It's a serious question.

And wasn't there supposed to be some kind of "Weasel Supreme" award?

Also, I don't know if he's quite up to the DICK level, but User:Timotheus Canens should be ripe for ... something.

This post has been edited by radek:
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Alison
post
Post #51


Skinny Cow!
********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,514
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 1,806



Can we include Commons in this year's pageant? Pleasepleaseplease!!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Vigilant
post
Post #52


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 307
Joined:
Member No.: 8,684



WP:DICK of Distinction -- Fae



Miss Incongeniality -- Ottava Rima

Most Vexatious Litigant -- Ottava Rima
and for the good guys...

The Straight Shooter -- Alison

The Cojones de latón -- Cla68


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
gomi
post
Post #53


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined:
Member No.: 565



QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:27pm) *
Can we include Commons in this year's pageant? Pleasepleaseplease!!

I would think so, given the ever-present porn fiascos. I would hold the line at shenanigans at WikiNews or Simpleton Wiki or whatever.


QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Fri 6th January 2012, 2:59pm) *
QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:44pm) *
OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.
Snort. You must be joking.

I second that snort. CHL is a NewYorkBrad wannabe. At best, officious and ineffective, and at worst, as much of a Jimmy Wales sycophant as anyone.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Herschelkrustofsky
post
Post #54


Member
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130



QUOTE(Vigilant @ Fri 6th January 2012, 4:50pm) *

WP:DICK of Distinction -- Fae



Miss Incongeniality -- Ottava Rima

Most Vexatious Litigant -- Ottava Rima
and for the good guys...

The Straight Shooter -- Alison

The Cojones de latón -- Cla68


All good calls, but with the exception of Fae, re-runs of previous pageants. Of course, if the shoe fits, I don't believe in term limits.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Eppur si muove
post
Post #55


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 304
Joined:
Member No.: 9,171



What awards can we give to non-admins? I think that Off2riorob's use of someone's comments about their serious health condition in order to score a gaming victory is worth some form of recognition.

This post has been edited by Eppur si muove:
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kelly Martin
post
Post #56


Bring back the guttersnipes!
********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
Joined:
From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696



QUOTE(gomi @ Fri 6th January 2012, 7:46pm) *
I second that snort. CHL (Frank Bednarz) is a NewYorkBrad wannabe. At best, officious and ineffective, and at worst, as much of a Jimmy Wales fondler as anyone.
He and I used to be a fairly good terms until he had a snitfit over something I said on Wikipedia Review that he somehow felt put him in a bad light. That, combined with his neocon politics, ended our relationship. In any case, I wasn't aware that he was doing anything at all related to Wikipedia anymore; I was fairly certain that his life had been completely consumed by the combination of being a young law associate and a newlywed, and also that he may have realized that continued association with Wikipedia might not be in his long term interest toward his fairly obvious quest to become a partner. In any case, not really a candidate for any of the usual categories.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Wikifan
post
Post #57


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 204
Joined:
Member No.: 26,203



QUOTE
Also, I don't know if he's quite up to the DICK level, but User:Timotheus Canens should be ripe for ... something.


major DICK.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
that one guy
post
Post #58


Doesn't get it either.
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 231
Joined:
From: A computer somewhere in this world
Member No.: 5,935



WP:DICK of Distinction -- Will Beback

The Tag-Team Event -- Ryulong and anyone who gives in to his wishes

Miss Incongeniality -- TreasuryTag

Most Vexatious Litigant -- Will Beback

The Straight Shooter -- SB Johnny

The Cojones de latón --

The TL;DR Award -- Ottava (sadly)

This post has been edited by that one guy:
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dogbiscuit
post
Post #59


Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
********

Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined:
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015



Surely each and every category should have Ottava in them, because, as we all know to well, it is all about him.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
A Horse With No Name
post
Post #60


I have as much free time as a Wikipedia admin!
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 4,471
Joined:
Member No.: 9,985



QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 5:44pm) *

OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.


Nothing personal, but that is one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen in my life! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
A Horse With No Name
post
Post #61


I have as much free time as a Wikipedia admin!
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 4,471
Joined:
Member No.: 9,985




WP:DICK of Distinction -- Risker (who continues her long reign as the stupidest person on Wikipedia)

The Tag-Team Event -- The Article Rescue Squadron (those lovable Keystone Kops are still racing about to save stuff that no one in the real world cares about)

Miss Incongeniality -- Baseball Bugs (who serves absolutely no purpose on WP except to stir up AN mischief)

Most Vexatious Litigant -- Titptoety (Wikipedia's would-be police officer)

The Straight Shooter -- Alison (though, to borrow an old line, what's a nice girl like her doing in a place like that?)

The Cojones de latón -- Malleus F. (the winner and still champ)

The TL;DR Award - Newyorkbrad (have you ever tried reading his "explanations"?)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Fusion
post
Post #62


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 346
Joined:
Member No.: 71,526



QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 7th January 2012, 1:46am) *

I second that snort. CHL (Frank Bednarz) is a NewYorkBrad wannabe. At best, officious and ineffective, and at worst, as much of a Jimmy Wales fondler as anyone.

It is not my place to tell you your job. However, are you not the Returning Officer for this election? If so, is it not inconsistent with your position to express strong criticism of a nominated candidate?

As for being a Jimmy fondler, that is not a good thing to say about a man so recently married. Anyway, I thought Jimmy preferred females. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by Fusion:
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Herschelkrustofsky
post
Post #63


Member
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130



QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sat 7th January 2012, 3:23am) *

QUOTE(Fusion @ Fri 6th January 2012, 5:44pm) *

OK, seriously can I nominate Cool Hand Luke for straight shooter. He's really cool.


Nothing personal, but that is one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen in my life! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)


Our policy as been to accept all nominations and let the voters sort them out. Of course, derisive comments are also welcome.

QUOTE(that one guy @ Fri 6th January 2012, 7:36pm) *


The Tag-Team Event -- Ryulong and anyone who gives in to his wishes


Our policy has been that to be nominated as a tag-team, the members must be specified.

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sat 7th January 2012, 3:33am) *

The Tag-Team Event -- The Article Rescue Squadron (those lovable Keystone Kops are still racing about to save stuff that no one in the real world cares about)
See above.

Here's what we have so far:

WP:DICK of Distinction --
Fæ (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Risker (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Timotheus Canens (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Will Beback (T-C-L-K-R-D)

The Tag-Team Event --

Miss Incongeniality --
Baseball Bugs (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Ottava Rima (T-C-L-K-R-D)
TreasuryTag (T-C-L-K-R-D)

Most Vexatious Litigant --
Ottava Rima (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Tiptoety (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Will Beback (T-C-L-K-R-D)

The Straight Shooter --
Alison (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Cool Hand Luke (T-C-L-K-R-D)
SB Johnny (T-C-L-K-R-D)

The Cojones de latón --
Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Larry Sanger (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Malleus Fatuorum (T-C-L-K-R-D)

The TL;DR Award --
Ottava Rima (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Newyorkbrad (T-C-L-K-R-D)


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
iii
post
Post #64


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 114
Joined:
Member No.: 38,992



MaliceAforethought had cojones de latón.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
It's the blimp, Frank
post
Post #65


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 734
Joined:
Member No.: 82



QUOTE(iii @ Sat 7th January 2012, 4:28pm) *

MaliceAforethought had cojones de latón.
True, but we don't know his Wikipedia ID.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Doc glasgow
post
Post #66


Wikipedia:The Sump of All Human Knowledge
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,138
Joined:
From: at home
Member No.: 90



You want vexatious litigation? This wins it for Willbeback, hands down.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Detective
post
Post #67


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 331
Joined:
Member No.: 35,179



QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 7th January 2012, 12:27am) *

Can we include Commons in this year's pageant? Pleasepleaseplease!!

We are suppposed to be the Wikipedia Review, but I won't object to the idea. I therefore nominate Jmabel, admin on both Wikipedia and Commons, for straight shooter. And if you've never heard of him, it's not too surprising. He's a gentleman and a smooth back-room fixer who's helped any number of people on the quiet.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
carbuncle
post
Post #68


Fat Cat
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,601
Joined:
Member No.: 5,544



QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sat 7th January 2012, 5:32pm) *

You want vexatious litigation? This wins it for Willbeback, hands down.

I concur. I would also offer this discussion on the BLP noticeboard where Will maintained that he was going to add disputed information back to a BLP, but consistently refused to do so when asked. I think this went on for a full two weeks before someone closed it. Thus far, it has not been added back (which is fine by me, but I suspect if Will reads this he will make the edit of out spite).
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
It's the blimp, Frank
post
Post #69


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 734
Joined:
Member No.: 82



QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sat 7th January 2012, 5:32pm) *

You want vexatious litigation? This wins it for Willbeback, hands down.


Let's face it, Scott. Will knows that you are a ringleader in the League of Anti-Defamation Editors and you must be stopped.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
radek
post
Post #70


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651



QUOTE(Detective @ Sat 7th January 2012, 12:34pm) *

QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 7th January 2012, 12:27am) *

Can we include Commons in this year's pageant? Pleasepleaseplease!!

We are suppposed to be the Wikipedia Review, but I won't object to the idea. I therefore nominate Jmabel, admin on both Wikipedia and Commons, for straight shooter. And if you've never heard of him, it's not too surprising. He's a gentleman and a smooth back-room fixer who's helped any number of people on the quiet.


Second this.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Web Fred
post
Post #71


Pervert & Swinger
*****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 739
Joined:
From: Manchester, UK
Member No.: 17,141



WP:DICK of Distinction -- Ottava Rimjob

The Tag-Team Event -- Wotsisface Herbert

Miss Incongeniality -- Nobody Ent (Gerardw as was)

Most Vexatious Litigant -- Ottava Rimjob

The Straight Shooter -- Nev1

The Cojones de latón --Malleus Fatuorum

The TL;DR Award -- Ottava Rimjob
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RMHED
post
Post #72


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 936
Joined:
Member No.: 11,716



WP:DICK of Distinction -- Will Beback for his sheer consistency throughout the year

Miss Incongeniality - Malleus Fatuorum

Most Vexatious Litigant - Fae, primarily for his recent antics on Commons

The Straight Shooter - Scott MacDonald for being spot on regards Malleus and his trolling.

The TL;DR Award - Ottava Rima
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Eppur si muove
post
Post #73


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 304
Joined:
Member No.: 9,171



For now:

Miss Incongeniality award:

Off2riorob for Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/WebHamster/Archive using Hamster's serious health problem in evidence against him.

TL;DR award:

Michael Netzer


More to come as the spirit takes me.

This post has been edited by Eppur si muove:
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Herschelkrustofsky
post
Post #74


Member
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130



QUOTE(Cunningly Linguistic @ Sat 7th January 2012, 12:22pm) *

The Tag-Team Event -- Wotsisface Herbert


Although it may mean letting an opportunity to be witty pass by, I would request that nominators spell the name of the nominee correctly so that I can figure out who it is and link to it. We like our voters to be able to make informed decisions, which means looking at the creature's edit history and record of snarky comments on talkpages and notice boards.

Also, allow me to repeat my reminder that a tag team must have more than one person.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mbz1
post
Post #75


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 461
Joined:
Member No.: 25,791



The Tag-Team Event -- Jimbo Wales and WMF
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SB_Johnny
post
Post #76


It wasn't me who made honky-tonk angels
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,128
Joined:
Member No.: 8,272



If we're expanding the scope to include commons, Herbythyme is a no-brainer for the straight shooter award. He doesn't come up here much (and isn't, as far as I know, a participant here), but he's definitely on the white-hat side of the equation, and has been for a long time.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
radek
post
Post #77


Ãœber Member
*****

Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651



Some of these names keep popping up over and over. I'm sure they deserve it. But wouldn't it be better if there was some kind of "Hall of Fame" for certain folks (we can have an official induction ceremony, complete with personalized invites) and keep the space available for the up and coming dicks, cojones, tag-teamers and the rest?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
iii
post
Post #78


Member
***

Group: Contributors
Posts: 114
Joined:
Member No.: 38,992



QUOTE(It's the blimp, Frank @ Sat 7th January 2012, 12:06pm) *

True, but we don't know his Wikipedia ID.


I don't see where that is a requirement.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
gomi
post
Post #79


Member
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,022
Joined:
Member No.: 565



QUOTE(radek @ Sat 7th January 2012, 5:25pm) *
Some of these names keep popping up over and over. ... But wouldn't it be better if there was some kind of "Hall of Fame" ... and keep the space available for the up and coming dicks, cojones, tag-teamers and the rest?

Last year, for this very reason, we awarded the 2011 WP:DICK of A Lifetime™ Achievement Award to SlimVirgin (T-C-L-K-R-D) and Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) , as well as the Lifetime Underachievement Award to Will Beback (T-C-L-K-R-D) . I will point out that Ottava also received an award last year.

So I think, at a very minimum, we should elevate Will "Beback" McWhinney (Jr.) to the "DICK of A Lifetime" award, and remove him from consideration elsewhere.


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rhindle
post
Post #80


Senior Member
****

Group: Contributors
Posts: 327
Joined:
Member No.: 6,834



QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 7th January 2012, 6:10pm) *

QUOTE(radek @ Sat 7th January 2012, 5:25pm) *
Some of these names keep popping up over and over. ... But wouldn't it be better if there was some kind of "Hall of Fame" ... and keep the space available for the up and coming dicks, cojones, tag-teamers and the rest?

Last year, for this very reason, we awarded the 2011 WP:DICK of A Lifetime™ Achievement Award to SlimVirgin (T-C-L-K-R-D) and Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) , as well as the Lifetime Underachievement Award to Will Beback (T-C-L-K-R-D) . I will point out that Ottava also received an award last year.

So I think, at a very minimum, we should elevate Will "Beback" McWhinney (Jr.) to the "DICK of A Lifetime" award, and remove him from consideration elsewhere.



Also, the Notable editors forum is a de facto Hall of Shame of years gone by.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

-   Lo-Fi Version Time is now:
 
     
FORUM WARNING [2] Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home2/wikipede/public_html/int042kj398.php:242) (Line: 0 of Unknown)