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> Paul Harvey Reads From His Clipping Collection, Page 2
Jon Awbrey
post Wed 16th March 2011, 9:40pm
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QUOTE

… and that government of the Mini-Mart™, by the Mini-Mart™,
for the Mini-Mart™, shall not perish before its expiration date.


— Abraham LinkedIn • The Spaghettisburg Address

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Milton Roe
post Wed 16th March 2011, 10:00pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 16th March 2011, 2:40pm) *

QUOTE

… and that government of the Mini-Mart™, by the Mini-Mart™,
for the Mini-Mart™, shall not perish before its expiration date.


— Abraham LinkedIn • The Spaghettisburg Address



Jon, open your eyes and READ the damn thing. What is Lincoln saying? I can't figure it out. Somethng about government for the people by the people and of the people, and clearly the civil war they're fighting is against that, or so he says. Well, was it? Is he right? The confederate rebellion looks to me to be the same kind of basic act that started the separation of the US from King George III "four score and seven years" before. I guess Lincoln was counting on his audience not to notice this.

Your problem is that you want it both ways, but can't have it. Lincoln (for example) didn't free any slaves in the non-rebel states, but not because such slaves didn't exist. They did exist-- there were 800,000 of them in of Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, Kentucky, and West Virginia. But those slaves stayed slaves because it wasn't about slaves. It was about rebellion of a minority (which the above 5 states were not doing) and the use of force to prevent it.
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Milton Roe
post Wed 16th March 2011, 10:15pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 16th March 2011, 2:04pm) *

[*]The American Revolution was not made on impulse. 150 years of planning went into it.
[*]It was not a tax revolt, despite the insufferable BS from Charles Beard.
[*]Thomas Jefferson was not a leading figure like Franklin or Hamilton.
[*]John Locke, like Adam Smith, was an opponent of the revolution. His slogan was, "Life, Liberty, and Property," not the pursuit of happiness, and the constitution he wrote for the colony of the Carolinas institutionalized the practice of slavery along with a feudal aristocracy.
[/list]

The only thing I agree on is that Jefferson wasn't a major figure, and that Locke was indeed against it. As to the rest, I guess I'm getting into of your favorite 150 year conspiracy theories in which (one would suppose) the English royalty secretly engineered the revolution out of pure evilness. Let me guess-- perhaps to have a place to keep their spare slaves, since they knew they'd have to give up their own in a few generations more? ohmy.gif
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Jon Awbrey
post Wed 16th March 2011, 10:22pm
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Lemme see, how can we explain this whole Civil War Thang at Milton's reading level ???

Maybe he could understand it in terms of enforcing contractual obligations or something ???

Yeah, that's the ticket —

QUOTE

We the Prenuptials of the United State, in Order to form a more perfect Union …


Kinda has a Ring to it, dontcha think?

Jon tongue.gif
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Milton Roe
post Wed 16th March 2011, 10:42pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 16th March 2011, 3:22pm) *

Lemme see, how can we explain this whole Civil War Thang at Milton's reading level ???

Maybe he could understand it in terms of enforcing contractual obligations or something ???

Yeah, that's the ticket —

QUOTE

We the Prenuptials of the United State, in Order to form a more perfect Union …


Kinda has a Ring to it, dontcha think?

Jon tongue.gif

Human marriages have a natural time limit, and even in colonial times could be dissolved before that. Perpetual contracts and charters were then (and are now) a rare, perhaps nonexistent thing, being regarded as rather unnatural in common law.

So, are you going to argue that the signers of the Constitution knew exactly what they were getting into? And that they, on behalf of all future generations, went into this weird, new, one of a kind, never-before-seen "contact," which does not address that specific issue, with eyes fully and (no doubt perpetually) open?

I think not. I think that nobody seriously considered it as a "you're in forever unless 2/3rds of us agree you're out" sort of thing. Or that any state would want out, and not be allowed out.
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Jon Awbrey
post Thu 17th March 2011, 12:06am
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In case you haven't noticed, Milton, I quit taking you seriously quite a while ago. Your reading of U.S. history is just plain wackier than just about anything I've ever heard before, and that is coming from someone who misspent most of his youth in Texas.

The most charitable interpretation I can put on your “theory” of Post-Redcoat Government — which is beginning to make the Ginger Genetics of Moulton look Absolutely True Blue by comparison — is to chalk it up to the usual degeneration of rationality brought on by over-exposure to Plutocratic Radiation Sources, aggravated by unhealthy doses of Wiki-Wyler's-Wallbangers.

If I wasn't so busy inveighing against the overthrow of my dear adopted Peninsula Amoena by yet another Korporate Kochsucker Kult, I'd take the time to sort your off-topic unctions to a more deserving suppository, er, depository.

But later …

Jon tongue.gif
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Milton Roe
post Thu 17th March 2011, 2:16am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 16th March 2011, 5:06pm) *

In case you haven't noticed, Milton, I quit taking you seriously quite a while ago. Your reading of U.S. history is just plain wackier than just about anything I've ever heard before, and that is coming from someone who spent most of his youth in Texas.

The most charitable interpretation I can put on your “theory” of Post-Redcoat Government — which is beginning to make the Ginger Genetics of Moulton look Absolutely True Blue by comparison — is to chalk it up to the usual degeneration of rationality brought on by over-exposure to Plutocratic Radiation Sources, aggravated by unhealthy doses of Wiki-Wyler's-Wallbangers.

If I wasn't so busy inveighing against the overthrow of my dear adopted Peninsula Amoena by yet another Korporate Kochsucker Kult, I'd take the time to sort your off-topic unctions to a more deserving suppository, er, depository.

But later …

Jon tongue.gif

Well, since you seem to have imbibed the liberal opiate of the tenured pervessers somehow, somewhere, even if you're not one yourself, I will leave you to it. Must be lonely not having anybody to talk to outside the academic socalist bubble. But so long as the State keeps pumping oxygen into wherever it is you post from, it doesn't really matter, right?

How you would have loved Cuba, and they, you. wub.gif Perhaps you've seen it? They do know the difference between capitalism and democracy, and they have democracy at all levels, but hold the capitalism. Sure-- they did starve to death some in the 90's, so now they'll let off-shore corporations invest a little, so long as they own no land and don't have any control. This allows the people to retain all control, and thus it is a socialist place, as written directly and unchangably into the constitution. Which has been upheld with > 90% of the vote. As all are elected offices in Cuba (> 80% of the vote). Only one party is legal (the Communists, of course) but you don't have to belong to it, and half of the elected ministers actually aren't Communist party members. ohmy.gif

Of course the other parties are illegal, but it doesn't matter, because elections aren't on party lines anyway, but on the character of the representative, who runs as an independent if they don't happen to be Communist party member. Cuba's political system resembles nothing so much as Wikipedia, except that it's more democratic and uses real names. Comandante en Jefe Castro is like Comandante Jimbo-- first among equals. But he was elected every time, so long as he chose to serve (now his brother is president, so you see, there is political change). However, the constitution is permanently socialist, just like a marriage with a ring you can't get out of your noseoff. Happy, happy.

Anyway, it's democratic all the way, so I wish you could have seen it. Before it completely crumbles and falls into dust, which it actually is slowly doing (save for a few tourist resorts, which seem to be strangely growing). But the people are nice. There is universal free education and health care! Just to prove how bad capitalism is for those things, elsewhere. happy.gif However, there is no housing, so if you get divorced you may have to stay in the same apartment with your former wife for the next decade, so again there's that ring thing. And that looooong feedback loop. wink.gif
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Herschelkrustofsky
post Thu 17th March 2011, 4:30am
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Of course. If you don't acknowledge the infallibility of the other Milton...
Image
...then you, sir, are a commie.
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Milton Roe
post Thu 17th March 2011, 5:16am
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 16th March 2011, 9:30pm) *

Of course. If you don't acknowledge the infallibility of the other Milton...
Image
...then you, sir, are a commie.

One of my favorite Miltons, for sure. I met him once. Only long enough to shake hands and tell him I wuved him. wub.gif

But isn't you own guru an old Commie?

They don't love infrastructure much in Cuba, however. Infrastructure is too-- Western. They were more into the agrarian Pol Pot thing, make money off selling sugar to the Soviets, or (in Cambodia's case) rice to China. It didn't work and everybody starved, but what the hell. The point of socialism is not to make people's lives better, but to make them feel good because nobody is rich. You don't care if you're poorer than ever, if all the rich people have been driven out or killed. And if your own leaders, your Castros or your Daniel Ortegas are getting a little bit-- how do you say-- yacht-club-- then hey, che. How can you criticize a socialist hero, eh?

Of course, opinions differ on whether or not Milton Friedman saved Chile or didn't save Chile from its monster quake (similar in power to the one that wiped out Haiti). The socialist reply at the Wall Street Journal figures it was Chile's state copper mine "pumping money into the economy" that saved Chile. Wikipedia has weighed in with Miracle of Chile.

Personally, I'm agnositic. Chile chose the free market under a dictator, THEN later democracy, and now has the best of both worlds. I've never been to Chile but hope to.

Cuba, however, has a very democratic government. If there is a totally pure socialist democracy on this planet, Cuba would be it. And it mostly sucks.
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lilburne
post Thu 17th March 2011, 3:06pm
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Just imagine what might have happened had Cuba not been under an economic embargo for the last 60 years.

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Cock-up-over-conspiracy
post Thu 17th March 2011, 5:36pm
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Thu 17th March 2011, 3:06pm) *
Just imagine what might have happened had Cuba not
been under an economic embargo for the last 60 years.

Thank you. Cuba would be doing wonderfully if it had not been gripped by Uncle Sam's vice and prised at by the levers of robber-baron merchantry.

"Will Wikipedia Replace Your Kid's Teacher?"
    No.
Wikipedia debase Your Kid and Your Kid's Teacher?
    Yes. Neither it nor its creators ought to be let anywhere near children and children not allowed near it. Usual arguments against to follow ...
Private education succeeds because the money element acts to filter out all the kid's that go to school without being fed and are generally malnourished, suffering much high levels of abuse, sharing bedrooms with older sexually active siblings, who live in houses that have no books, who live in no house, who's parents are drug addicts, prostitutes, career criminal, recipients of benefits etc.

It would be an interesting experiment to take the teachers from private schools and swop them with teachers from public schools and see how the two groups got on. Methinks the private schools would not suffer and the publics school would not improve.

Something like ... except in rare cases, it takes several generations of selective breeding supported by financial security to raise educational levels in any given community.

Wikipedia has no breeding and it almost entirely non-selective, it is headed downwards.
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Milton Roe
post Thu 17th March 2011, 5:48pm
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Thu 17th March 2011, 8:06am) *

Just imagine what might have happened had Cuba not been under an economic embargo for the last 60 years.

Assholes tend to be avoided and isolated. It's true of nations also.

The economic embargo by the US started when Cuba simply stole all of the US oil refining capacity and property (kicked off when US refineries refused to refine Soviet oil for the Cubans). It went downhill from there. As the US supported an invasion of Cuba, Castro was urging the USSR to nuke the US. What's a little global nuke war between narcissists? Castro's empire was threatened, so let's burn down the world.

A lot of other South American countries embargoed Cuba for a while because Cuba not only stole their property, but tried to foment revolution in them, just as the US had done to Cuba. It's the usual "one set of rules for you, another set for us." Many South American countries didn't appreciate it.

The US is the last holdout in not regularizing trade and regular tourism with Cuba now (though we have sent some humanitarian stuff). But Cuba's free to develop in the same way trading with everybody else, that every country is. The problem is, nobody will invest in Cuba to any great extent, because Cuba doesn't understand the idea of anybody else owning anything, or having property. The Castro family (not the Cuban people) owned controlling interest in the "hotel" (converted rich man's villa) I stayed at (so they understood the idea of stuff belonging to THEM), but they wouldn't let (say) their socialist comrades the Venezuelans come in and buy such an interest. Meanwhile, the Cuban citizens do without.

Whose fault is this?
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lilburne
post Thu 17th March 2011, 9:54pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 17th March 2011, 5:48pm) *


Whose fault is this?


Yours?
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 17th March 2011, 5:48pm) *


Many South American countries didn't appreciate it.


Duvalier, Somoza, Barrientos, Arellano, Fuentes, ...
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Cock-up-over-conspiracy
post Thu 17th March 2011, 11:03pm
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Milton, in some corners you are funny, very well informed and communicate well, in others you are an idiot clown.

To summarise down the past century or so of American military-industrial Imperial expansion (which in this case I am limiting to friction between competing Russian and American ambitions) to "Assholes tend to be avoided and iolated. It's true of nations also.", you have to missing some braincells, or books in your library.

Oh, I forgot. Wikipedians don't have books or go to libraries because they own the sum of all human knowledge already.

Funny enough, when checking with Google for the correct terms to use, I discovered that according to the top result Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, "Détente" is actually an American thrash metal band.

It is a widely know fact that a large proportion of Americans, due to poor selective inbreeding between selfish, greedy and aggressive psychopaths, suffer from a genetic disposition that disallows from being able to comprehend anything relating to common or collective ownership in anyway whatsoever. The mere mention of the 'S' or 'C' words sends their brain synapses into paralytic paroxysms that overwhelm rational reasoning. Then they go and edit on the Wikipedia.

I am not defending the anything remotely related to so-called socialism or Cuba at all but let's allow space for a little bit of intelligence. Yes, I appreciate human greed and selfishness are hard to overcome but who knows what the Soviet experiment (and list 10 or 20 other nations) might have ended up as had it not been for the dirty ambitions and Yankee paranoia.
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Milton Roe
post Fri 18th March 2011, 12:27am
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QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Thu 17th March 2011, 4:03pm) *

I am not defending the anything remotely related to so-called socialism or Cuba at all but let's allow space for a little bit of intelligence. Yes, I appreciate human greed and selfishness are hard to overcome but who knows what the Soviet experiment (and list 10 or 20 other nations) might have ended up as had it not been for the dirty ambitions and Yankee paranoia.

There are always dirty ambitions, don't you know. People with power are always corrupted by it if they have it for too long; this is basic human nature. Saying that democratic full-socialism would work great except for these little details is to admit that would work great with some other species, but it's not so good for human beings. In which case you can make the case for Communism to the Martians, but I'm not interested in it.

We did experients about as carefully as one could do in this world. In two cases (Germany and Korea) the countries were split right down the middle, fairly arbitrarily, and then subjected to the socialist experiment in one half, and Westernization in the other. It didn't work for the non Western part. And in each case, the true believers either blamed the West or else blamed evil ambitions which supposedly could be purified out somewhere else. You'll never learn. So, I don't try to teach you. At least the Chinese are slowly figuring it out.
QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Thu 17th March 2011, 4:03pm) *

Milton, in some corners you are funny, very well informed and communicate well, in others you are an idiot clown.

That's me. tongue.gif You know, if I'd caught Dr. "Che" Guevara skulking around in the jungle of my country trying to start a revolution, I wouldn't have shot him. I'd merely have put him in a nice cell, and told him he could have an asthma inhaler just as soon as I could find one that had been purely invented by communists. A real wheezer of an argument. And more subtle than bullets (not that Che himself wasn't fond of using the firing squad to make a political point).
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EricBarbour
post Fri 18th March 2011, 1:14am
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Say what you will about Milton, or about Awbrey: neither one of them is a raving, mechanical,
manipulative sociopath. You can actually talk to them, and get a coherent and reasoned response.

Not like SlimVirgin, or that FT2 dude. Go ahead, try to have a conversation about WP's faulty structure.
With either of them. Or any number of admins, for that matter.
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It's the blimp, Frank
post Fri 18th March 2011, 3:48am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 18th March 2011, 12:27am) *

We did experients about as carefully as one could do in this world. In two cases (Germany and Korea) the countries were split right down the middle, fairly arbitrarily, and then subjected to the socialist experiment in one half, and Westernization in the other. It didn't work for the non Western part.


I think those are interesting examples, but remember that neither West Germany nor South Korea used the extreme deregulated market-economy that you seem to advocate -- far from it.
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Milton Roe
post Fri 18th March 2011, 6:05am
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QUOTE(It's the blimp, Frank @ Thu 17th March 2011, 8:48pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 18th March 2011, 12:27am) *

We did experients about as carefully as one could do in this world. In two cases (Germany and Korea) the countries were split right down the middle, fairly arbitrarily, and then subjected to the socialist experiment in one half, and Westernization in the other. It didn't work for the non Western part.


I think those are interesting examples, but remember that neither West Germany nor South Korea used the extreme deregulated market-economy that you seem to advocate -- far from it.

Oh, I'm not for broad business de-regulation. Some I'd regulate more, some less. In general I'd like to see business treated more like citizens. That means a thinner corporate veil and more CEOs and boards of directors doing time for the same crimes they certainly WOULD do time for, if they did them as individuals. I know this goes against a lot of legal precident, but it's also a lot more fair. And it shortens that feedback loop a LOT.

By the same extension, however, I'd give private business many of the same freedoms you enjoy as a citizen-owner also. For example, if you want all those ADA laws to apply retrospectively to your local businesses (as opposed to requiring them only for building codes of NEW structures), you should prepare to have them applied retroactively to your home. Fair is fair. Get ready to put an elevator up the side of your Victorian house, you liberal weenie, and see how YOU like it.

Just because you don't own a small business doesn't mean you should be able to screw over the business owners all you like. On the other hand, just because you're a corporation, doesn't mean you should be able to get away with robbery.

I'm really a moderate. Neither the left nor the right like most of my ideas.
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Gruntled
post Fri 18th March 2011, 3:17pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 18th March 2011, 12:27am) *

We did experients about as carefully as one could do in this world. In two cases (Germany and Korea) the countries were split right down the middle, fairly arbitrarily, and then subjected to the socialist experiment in one half, and Westernization in the other. It didn't work for the non Western part.

And of course there's Vietnam. Although the split there was north-south not east-west, the southern bit was Westernised and the northern bit was a "socialist experiment".
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Milton Roe
post Fri 18th March 2011, 5:51pm
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QUOTE(Gruntled @ Fri 18th March 2011, 8:17am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 18th March 2011, 12:27am) *

We did experients about as carefully as one could do in this world. In two cases (Germany and Korea) the countries were split right down the middle, fairly arbitrarily, and then subjected to the socialist experiment in one half, and Westernization in the other. It didn't work for the non Western part.

And of course there's Vietnam. Although the split there was north-south not east-west, the southern bit was Westernised and the northern bit was a "socialist experiment".

A little difficult, as there was a civil war going on through the entire time of this.

In the last 10 years Vietnam has embraced quite a bit of capitalism. Would you say they're doing better now, or worse?
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