FT2 and Paul Sinclair, FT2 is not the man in the photos Options

[Proabivouac]

Last night, I spoke by telephone at some length to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates, the man pictured in this thread…
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20192&st=0

…and on Hivemind:
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html#338

FT2 was certainly the "Paul Sinclair" of the failed Wikimedia UK, but this man is not FT2. Accordingly, I suggest tarpitting threads in which this innocent man is exposed and criticized in FT2's stead.

[Kato]

Last night, I spoke by telephone at some length to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates, the man pictured in this thread…
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20192&st=0

…and on Hivemind:
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html#338

FT2 was certainly the "Paul Sinclair" of the failed Wikimedia UK, but this man is not FT2. Accordingly, I suggest tarpitting threads in which this innocent man is exposed and criticized in FT2's stead.

That confused me as well when I checked it yesterday.

I couldn't see how a guy in Corsham could "move in the same circles" as David Gerard. You've got to know Corsham to understand why that seems such an unlikelihood.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Moderator's note: tarpitted per reader request.

[wikiwhistle]

What about the WilkoBilko connection? :/ (confused face)

This post has been edited by wikiwhistle:

[Proabivouac]

What about the WilkoBilko connection? :/ (confused face)

User:WilkoBilko is Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates. According to Mr. Sinclair, this was his only edit to Wikipedia.

[Giano]

Last night, I spoke by telephone at some length to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates, the man pictured in this thread…
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20192&st=0

…and on Hivemind:
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html#338

FT2 was certainly the "Paul Sinclair" of the failed Wikimedia UK, but this man is not FT2. Accordingly, I suggest tarpitting threads in which this innocent man is exposed and criticized in FT2's stead.

That confused me as well when I checked it yesterday.

I couldn't see how a guy in Corsham could "move in the same circles" as David Gerard. You've got to know Corsham to understand why that seems such an unlikelihood.

I know Corsham too, that made me laugh!

Giano

[Basil]

Are you sure?

I spoke by telephone at some length to...

That sounds just like FT2 (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

[dogbiscuit]

Last night, I spoke by telephone at some length to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates, the man pictured in this thread…
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20192&st=0

…and on Hivemind:
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html#338

FT2 was certainly the "Paul Sinclair" of the failed Wikimedia UK, but this man is not FT2. Accordingly, I suggest tarpitting threads in which this innocent man is exposed and criticized in FT2's stead.

That confused me as well when I checked it yesterday.

I couldn't see how a guy in Corsham could "move in the same circles" as David Gerard. You've got to know Corsham to understand why that seems such an unlikelihood.

I know Corsham too, that made me laugh!

Giano

Yet TRPS (The Real...) does have that link to being a male escort working in that area, it is his DG-like photograph so I don't really think Milton should be too embarrassed about his relationship (and I note in the thread that Pro was very careful to say that although the coincidence was very high, coincidence was not proof and refused to make the connection. So the joke is that even though the area is posh, and idyllic English countryside villages, TRPS does seem to have been in this other world.

There are PoetGuy similarities in this: PoetGuy using names that related to real people - I'm just not clear whether FT2 chose the pseudonym PS due to a passing encounter in life or on the Net, or whether it was just unfortunate that someone with similar interests happened to have that name.

Anyway I think I am going to have a rummage at Companies House just to see what the embarrassing and potentially illegal company registration contained for Wikimedia UK that needed sorting out. Worth a couple of quid.

[dogbiscuit]

...well, aside from David Gerrard's middle name is Wainwright and they appointed one of his ladies as a director (Arkady Ilyana Rose, nee Rosemary Tillotson), not anything to see. PS never made it as far as being formally appointed.

...oh, and Wiki Educational Resources Limited seem to be operating unlawfully as they have not filed any accounts, but we knew that anyway.

The other thing to note is that although Wikimedia UK is touted as having a Board of Directors, but Wikimedia UK is just a name for some unincorporated association and the Wikimedia UK name rights seem to remain with Wiki Educational Resources Limited and no documents have been filed that legally hand over WERL to that other board. Very messy. Wikimedia "legal".

Also note that it has a business address but unusually for a legitimate company, refuses to reveal where it trades from.

[Milton Roe]

What about the WilkoBilko connection? :/ (confused face)

User:WilkoBilko is Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates. According to Mr. Sinclair, this was his only edit to Wikipedia.

A first and only edit, which was a PERFECTLY formatted insertion of a Sinclair paper reference into a WP text. Without a mistake. Do you believe that?

[Peter Damian]

What about the WilkoBilko connection? :/ (confused face)

User:WilkoBilko is Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates. According to Mr. Sinclair, this was his only edit to Wikipedia.

A first and only edit, which was a PERFECTLY formatted insertion of a Sinclair paper reference into a WP text. Without a mistake. Do you believe that?

Hmm. There is also the odd NLP connection, and then there is this very strange conversation.

I saw that you were interested in shedding some light on some of the ugliness around the wiki at the moment - I'm a bit sick of some of the secrecy, and general nastiness, and maybe you are too by now, and if so, feel free to remove this message or whatever, and I'll shuffle along. I've chatted privately with FT about this previously, and personally don't consider if big huge deal, rather it's just a small and possibly relevant question; Would it matter if this edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=158506490 made some weeks previous to last years arbcom election, were in fact made by FT? - I've come to believe that it was, and that it represents a 'CoI' edit demonstrating poor judgment. I'd rather talk things through with you than contribute to any of the disastrous noticeboard and talk page threads around the place, if you're so inclined, then get in touch, otherwise I'll let it lie. cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 01:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

How do you know it is not a Joe job? It's too late for checkuser. Best not to bring it up at all if it can't be proven. Jehochman Talk 01:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I dunno about the proof - but I feel fairly sure that it is the case - I don't think FT would deny it really, to be honest, and I'd always assumed that the arbcom, or some other admin.s were well aware of some sensible reasons for FT to use an alternate account for that edit, however I do think it's not really on. It's just one part of a bigger picture no doubt, mind. Privatemusings (talk) 01:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)available in IRC if you fancy...

Why don't you just ask him, via email? Jehochman Talk 01:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh we've talked about it privately at some length - FT's always been very willing to chat, which is great. FT has stated clearly to me that he feels he has never abused the wiki in any way - I'm just not sure that I can totally agree, in the context. Personally, I think this sort of thing makes a bit of a difference, and wondered what you thought..... :-) Privatemusings (talk) 01:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

If that were him, the edit probably would not be against policy. COI editing is discouraged, not forbidden. Disruption is forbidden, and persistent violations of WP:NPOV are forbidden. If he's not being disruptive, and not violating neutrality, the edit is acceptable, though it might not be the highest standard of conduct. We need to tolerate that our fellows will make an occasional mistake. Jehochman Talk 01:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Good enough for me, J'hoch.... I'll leave that one, and the election 07 stuff, there.... thanks for letting me steal some of your time - can I offer some wiki-gnoming as a thank you? Name an article if you like.... :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Also, why an account creation (which conceals IP address) rather than edit from an IP (which makes IP visible)? I can't figure that one out. There was only one edit. It's almost as though the person wanted to conceal their identity? But why do that?

[edit] And if PM really did talk to FT2, why phrase it in that way? He says FT2 "feels he has never abused the wiki in any way". That suggests FT2 agreed he made the edit, but 'feels' it was not inappropriate. If he hadn't made the edit, he would strenuously have denied the whole thing.

Or perhaps our friend Privatemusings is taking us for a ride or two?

[edit] On the other hand, if Milton had bothered to check the edit right through, he would have seen it wasn't perfectly formatted. It was changed a day later

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=160677102

So is PM taking us for a ride?

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[dogbiscuit]

[edit] On the other hand, if Milton had bothered to check the edit right through, he would have seen it wasn't perfectly formatted. It was changed a day later

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=160677102

So is PM taking us for a ride?

I'd say that the edit was feasible for a newcomer as it did not rely on any formatting, but simply inserted paragraphs of text with what would have been a full article edit. The formatting error was a single space in front of the newly broken paragraph.

So that could be a good first stab or an attempt to make an edit look innocent - (ah! where's Durova when you need her?)

Of course, we can now identify the edit as a WP:COI (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif)

[Milton Roe]

[edit] On the other hand, if Milton had bothered to check the edit right through, he would have seen it wasn't perfectly formatted. It was changed a day later

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=160677102

So is PM taking us for a ride?

I'd say that the edit was feasible for a newcomer as it did not rely on any formatting, but simply inserted paragraphs of text with what would have been a full article edit. The formatting error was a single space in front of the newly broken paragraph.

So that could be a good first stab or an attempt to make an edit look innocent - (ah! where's Durova when you need her?)

Of course, we can now identify the edit as a WP:COI (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif)

I'm sorry, but THESE changes are the first and only edit of the WilkoBilko account. If it was lacking a space somewhere, it's still far too close to a perfect addition of a paragraph and reference for a newbie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=160677102

Now, what are we being asked to believe here? There is a psychologist in Bath named "Paul" who is into BDSM, fetishes, and all the stuff FT2 writes about, who uses the WikoBilko address on his Sinclair Associates consult page. But FT2 of UK-WMF, who Kato assures us is Paul Sinclair of WMF, and who admits to making a single WilkoBilko edit to add a Paul Sinclair reference paper to a Wiki on Personality Traits, denies being the Paul Sinclair/bondage guy psychologist in Bath who uses WilkoBilko as an email address ALSO.

This is all one giant coincidence, one supposes. Oh yes, the Paul Sinclair psychologist in Bath who is into paraphilias is also a buisiness coach and advisor. And uses NLP. According to his webpage. And our FT2/WMF-Paul Sinclair (if they are the same) is famous for his NLP and paraphilia writing on WP, and has studied psychology, despite his claim not to be the Paul Sinclair of Bath who really practices his paraphilias as a lifestyle, as we know from his web personals advertising. Ummm hmmm. But our FT2 on WP has also advertised himself as a mediator, which is the "above ground" occupation of the Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates.

Oh yeah-- these two guys, both named Paul Sinclair, live within driving distance of each other (100 miles). That's probably why they both use the same email handle of WilkoBilko-- it's so handy.

Now, there's a lie here, or break in the assumptions here, somewhere. I'm willing to believe there are two Paul Sinclairs, one of whom is the fetish/FT2 guy, and the other of which is the WMF stolid older banker guy. But the WMF guy would then NOT be FT2-- rather, he'd simply have the same real life name, and none of the paraphilia interests. The WilkoBilko edit would then have been a deliberate copy by the WMF guy of email used by another psychologist of the SAME NAME who is a psychologist in Bath who is into paraphilias

The Bath Paul Sinclair bondage-psychologist is simply too much like the paraphilia FT2 editor we all know, not to be him. Whether he's UK-WMF's Paul Sinclair is only something I have on word of mouth. I don't believe it. WIth the WilkoBilko edit which is the only one the WMF Paul Sinclair admits to, I really don't believe it. What-- the guy wants to be on the WMF board of the UK, but has edited Wikipedia exactly ONCE? Say what? Using the handle of somebody who has FT2's interests and has the same name as he does?

You know what we really need? An checkuser of that WilkoBilko edit above. Odds that we'll get it?

[Peter Damian]

Hang on - and this is important - FT2 also uses the handle WilkoBilko? I thought that was the Corsham guy?

What-- the guy wants to be on the WMF board of the UK, but has edited Wikipedia exactly ONCE? Say what? Using the handle of somebody who has FT2's interests and has the same name as he does?

Now here you are confused. The guy who wants to be on the WMF board of the UK = the guy who calls himself 'Paul Sinclair', but we don't know whether that is the Corsham Paul.

So that could be a good first stab or an attempt to make an edit look innocent [...]

Now that is possible.

[Milton Roe]

What about the WilkoBilko connection? :/ (confused face)

User:WilkoBilko is Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates. According to Mr. Sinclair, this was his only edit to Wikipedia.

Okay. If this is true, then WilkoBilko of Sinclair Associates, who is a psychologist and the BDSM guy of the photos and the personals, and is named Paul Sinclair, IS NOT FT2 of WMF, despite the latter ALSO being named Paul Sinclair AND (as we see from his FT2 editing) has all the paraphilia/BDSM interests of the Sinclair Associates Paul Sinclair.

Is that what you're saying?

[privatemusings]

For what it's worth - here's my little write up of where we're at;

Firstly I should note that I may well have taken some for a ride - albeit clumsily and inadvertently - my post on Jehochman's page clearly could imply that FT had in some way confirmed to me that the wilkobilko edit was his - he did no such thing. I chatted (I think in gmail text chat - but maybe Skype text?) with FT for about 45mins / an hour on this one, and my recollection of his response to the direct question 'was that edit yours?' was along the lines of 'I have never abused the wiki' - this in the context of not being willing to discuss any aspects of identity - take that for whatever it's worth.....

I take Pro's post to mean that he's had a conversation with the PS who made the wilkobilko edit, and that he denied being 'FT2' - which may or may not speak to the fundamental truth of the matter - I'd rather keep my own counsel, and leave it there, to be honest......

[tarantino]

[edit] And if PM really did talk to FT2, why phrase it in that way? He says FT2 "feels he has never abused the wiki in any way". That suggests FT2 agreed he made the edit, but 'feels' it was not inappropriate. If he hadn't made the edit, he would strenuously have denied the whole thing.

Or perhaps our friend Privatemusings is taking us for a ride or two?

This is the way FT2 talks, and he won't confirm or deny speculations on his identity.

PS isn't FT2. On top of the conversation Proab had with PS, Wikipedians that have met FT2 say the man pictured is not him.

"Paul Sinclair" of Wikimedia UK V1.0 was most likely using a pseudonym, and that was one reason why the company folded before he had to submit documents to Companies House.

[Peter Damian]

[edit] And if PM really did talk to FT2, why phrase it in that way? He says FT2 "feels he has never abused the wiki in any way". That suggests FT2 agreed he made the edit, but 'feels' it was not inappropriate. If he hadn't made the edit, he would strenuously have denied the whole thing.

Or perhaps our friend Privatemusings is taking us for a ride or two?

This is the way FT2 talks, and he won't confirm or deny speculations on his identity.

PS isn't FT2. On top of the conversation Proab had with PS, Wikipedians that have met FT2 say the man pictured is not him.

"Paul Sinclair" of Wikimedia UK V1.0 was most likely using a pseudonym, and that was one reason why the company folded before he had to submit documents to Companies House.

That makes more sense.

[Milton Roe]

Hang on - and this is important - FT2 also uses the handle WilkoBilko? I thought that was the Corsham guy?

FT2 has never been linked to WilkoBilko. I don't know who the "Corsham guy" is. Presumably the same as the Sinclair Associates Paul Sinclair with office in Bath, 7 miles from Corsham. That last Sinclair says he made the WilkoBilko edit, which goes along with this email being on the Sinclair Associates webpage. That Paul Sinclair has all the paraphilia interests in real life (according to his personals) that FT2 does in his WP editorial life. Which proves nothing, except that we have various people telling us that FT2 is also named Paul Sinclair, and is a well known public WMF-UK figure. So, go figure. The FT2 Paul Sinclair of WMF, who has studied psychology, is vitally interested in writing articles on the real-life paraphilia interests of the Wilkobilko WP-edit Paul Sinclair, who has written psychology papers and lives not far away.

[edit] And if PM really did talk to FT2, why phrase it in that way? He says FT2 "feels he has never abused the wiki in any way". That suggests FT2 agreed he made the edit, but 'feels' it was not inappropriate. If he hadn't made the edit, he would strenuously have denied the whole thing.

Or perhaps our friend Privatemusings is taking us for a ride or two?

This is the way FT2 talks, and he won't confirm or deny speculations on his identity.

PS isn't FT2. On top of the conversation Proab had with PS, Wikipedians that have met FT2 say the man pictured is not him.

"Paul Sinclair" of Wikimedia UK V1.0 was most likely using a pseudonym, and that was one reason why the company folded before he had to submit documents to Companies House.

That would make more sense. Two real Paul Sinclairs just puts all this totally over the top, coincidence-wise.

And Paul Sinclair being an FT2 pseudonym also expalins the UK-WMF collapse, as you noted. Somebody, somewhere, has to give a real name to a bank. FT2 didn't want to.

[Kato]

Hang on - and this is important - FT2 also uses the handle WilkoBilko? I thought that was the Corsham guy?

FT2 has never been linked to WilkoBilko. I don't know who the "Corsham guy" is. Presumably the same as the Sinclair Associates Paul Sinclair with office in Bath, 7 miles from Corsham. That last Sinclair says he made the WilkoBilko edit, which goes along with this email being on the Sinclair Associates webpage. That Paul Sinclair has all the paraphilia interests in real life (according to his personals) that FT2 does in his WP editorial life. Which proves nothing, except that we have various people telling us that FT2 is also named Paul Sinclair, and is a well known public WMF-UK figure. So, go figure. The FT2 Paul Sinclair of WMF, who has studied psychology, is vitally interested in writing articles on the real-life paraphilia interests of the Wilkobilko WP-edit Paul Sinclair, who has written psychology papers and lives not far away.

I think you've got mixed up. Corsham guy is the Sinclair Associates Paul Sinclair with an office in Bath.

I don't think there was ever any confirmation that FT2 lived anywhere near Corsham/Bath. And judging by some of the claims made about FT2, he is based in London.

[Moulton]

If I haven't dropped my libretto under the seat, this is what I have...

Proabivouac talked voice (by landline telephone) to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates.

PrivateMusings talked voice (by Skype) to FT2.

Thus each of them has heard the voice of but one of the (supposedly) two characters.

Now voices are fairly reliable ways to distinguish two different people who are not trained voice characterization actors.

Is there some way that PM and Pro can either compare notes as to how the voices sounded, or (better yet) is there some way PM can talk to the other PS in Bath and compare voices?

[dogbiscuit]

It would be helpful for Alex to explain about the third Paul Sinclair (not FT2, not TRPS but the Wikimedia fiction) as he knows him and can vouch for him. If Alex can simply confirm in clear language, none of that FT2 dissembling of you will not find FT2 admitting to being Paul Sinclair business, that the 3rd Paul Sinclair is neither FT2 nor TRPS then we can all go home happy.

Note that the Wikimedia fictional Paul did not ever file any legal documents associated with the company. Indeed, for a small company there would be no need for him to do so. With small turnovers, the directors can sign off the accounts - no need for qualified accountants anyhow, so there was no need for any qualified accountant to reveal their identity if they did not want to, they could have just done the accounts, passed them over to the idiots who could not do sums (as that is all that is required for small company accounts, you can even do the return online). More likely they needed a competent accountant to try and cover up the mess of a bunch of amateurs taking money from willing Wikipedians, offering nothing in return, but no doubt taking remuneration and or expenses for their services.

Having said that, this makes me doubt the accounting credentials of the 3rd Paul Sinclair, who just offered to be a treasurer as far as I am aware.

To correct an error above, Wiki Educational Resources Ltd, which seems to be trading as Wikimedia UK, has not folded, and currently is still trading and soliciting money from Wikipedians. However, it is operating unlawfully by not filing accounts and I would presume should be accumulating warning letters and fines for failing to do so. The Inland Revenue should also be taking an interest (but unless you can suggest that they are not paying significant amounts of tax, they aren't going to be that interested, though a failure to give a tax return, for which you need to provide accounts, will also rack up the fines).

We need accounts so we can see what sort of remuneration the directors have been extracting from the company. That might be embarrassing. Or the expenses. That might be embarrassing (though I doubt Jimbo "would have a problem with that"). It is also necessary to have accounts to understand if the company is solvent. It is unlawful to trade when insolvent and will get you banned from being a director in the future if you are party to it.

Generally, a lot of the difficulties associated with setting up the company are that they seemed to have been bothered about being treated as a company rather than a charity and claims that it would be difficult to sort out. It struck me that this was bad advice. Though the overheads of bank charges for companies are irritating, you can normally get some relief for the first year of trading, and having charges for paying in and making withdrawals is hardly a show-stopper for starting an organisation. Probably more of a show stopper would be that the banks would want personal guarantees that pierce the veil of limited liability if they wanted not just a bank account, but to get loans or overdrafts to do stuff with. Given that the board should be competent to manage a business, it fascinates me that they were unable to attract anyone half competent in these matters - including a director who styles herself as the CEO of Wikimedia who claims an MBA.

[Alex]

It would be helpful for Alex to explain about the third Paul Sinclair (not FT2, not TRPS but the Wikimedia fiction) as he knows him and can vouch for him. If Alex can simply confirm in clear language, none of that FT2 dissembling of you will not find FT2 admitting to being Paul Sinclair business, that the 3rd Paul Sinclair is neither FT2 nor TRPS then we can all go home happy.

What?

[dogbiscuit]

It would be helpful for Alex to explain about the third Paul Sinclair (not FT2, not TRPS but the Wikimedia fiction) as he knows him and can vouch for him. If Alex can simply confirm in clear language, none of that FT2 dissembling of you will not find FT2 admitting to being Paul Sinclair business, that the 3rd Paul Sinclair is neither FT2 nor TRPS then we can all go home happy.

What?

You said you thought you knew. Elsewhere on that list I think there was a comment that you could vouch for Paul Sinclair.

As I understand it Proab identified the 3rd possible Paul Sinclair.

I just thought you could straighten out some of the confusion caused by FT2's dissembling answers.

Simply put, can you confirm that:

a) FT2 (Paul, but apparently never Paul Sinclair) is not
b) Paul Sinclair businessfirst is not
c) The Real Paul Sinclair of Wiltshire with a surprising number of common interests with FT2?

[Milton Roe]

Last night, I spoke by telephone at some length to Paul Sinclair of Sinclair Associates, the man pictured in this thread…
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20192&st=0

…and on Hivemind:
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/hivemind.html#338

FT2 was certainly the "Paul Sinclair" of the failed Wikimedia UK, but this man is not FT2. Accordingly, I suggest tarpitting threads in which this innocent man is exposed and criticized in FT2's stead.

Okay, to clear things up: we don't really know the name of the man who is FT2 and called himself "Paul Sinclair" in connection with Wikimedia-UK. That guy could be named Joe Blow, for all we know. But on WP, he's FT2. His use of the name Paul Sinclair is a ruse, and no such real person with that name in London connected with Wikimedia exists.

The other guy really is named Paul Sinclair and is a psychologist who lives in Corsham with office in nearby Bath, who has a private life with all FT2's interests incorporated (fetishism and NLP and life coaching and mediation), and has made and admitted ONE edit to WP as WilkoBilko, in order to get one of his own publications (as Paul Sinclair) into an article on The Big Five Personality Traits. He is the guy we have photos of from his personals site, and states he's NOT FT2, or any kind of Wikipedia wonk, and has only edited that one time. Despite which, his one and only edit to WP is surprisingly competent, consisting of adding a paragraph and a reference in one shot, with only a single space mistake (my error in thinking it was "perfect."). And needless to say, this guy is not connected with the Wikimedia foundation. That's the other guy who is FT2.

Is this your understanding from talking to the Bath/Corsham/psych/fetish guy?

Does anybody have ANY evidence that the UK-Wikimedia guy who is FT2, is really, really named Paul Sinclair?

[Lar]

I find this all confusing as all get out.

Which isn't the end of the world because
a) If it confuses me, it no doubt confuses everyone else, which seems a good thing since you're all busily trying to out people.
b) It's amusing to see all these pseuds industriously trying to connect real life identities together,
and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point. Not to mention WR at its worst. Not that anyone cares but there you go.

Carry on playing silly buggers.

[Somey]

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point.

I was under the impression that the point, such as it is, is that several people here don't believe FT2 (T-C-L-K-R-D) 's assertions that his editing activity on articles relating to fetishism and bestiality is merely indicative of a high degree of interest in controversial topics in general, and that they may in fact be indicative of some form of bias or even a conflict of interest.

I agree that it's confusing, though... And one might also legitimately claim that FT2's editing activity on some of the articles in question might in itself be sufficiently suspect that his identity wouldn't have to be an issue. I can at least say that the mods here have had plenty of discussions about this, and there's almost unanimous agreement that he's both sufficiently controversial and influential enough for this level of scrutiny, even if it ultimately turns out that little is gained by it.

[Milton Roe]

I find this all confusing as all get out.

Which isn't the end of the world because
a) If it confuses me, it no doubt confuses everyone else, which seems a good thing since you're all busily trying to out people.
b) It's amusing to see all these pseuds industriously trying to connect real life identities together,
and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point. Not to mention WR at its worst. Not that anyone cares but there you go.

Carry on playing silly buggers.

There's nothing silly-buggerish about ferreting out abuse of power on WP in service of POVs. I really don't give a fig if a WP admin screws pooches (even non metaphorically) and hogties his sex partners (even when they aren't hogs). It's when they push these points of view at the end of a block button that they start becoming at-risk.

I'f you (Lar) had indef blocked people for saying derisive things about LEGOS or even atheism on WP, and we didn't know your real name, you've be at-risk for being punished for power-abuse, too. But you don't abuse your power, and you use your real name, so that doesn't happen.

Look, in the real-world there is endless argument about sadism, masochism, bondage, pedophilia, zoophilia, and all kinds of other paraphilias. If WP mirrored the real world, there's be a more or less constant edit warring on those things, also. I see no honest way out of that.

But WP is nothing, if not dishonest. The reason the "what's ethical or tasteful or appropriate" war doesn't happen on Wikipedia, is that powerful people there have simply banned anybody who doesn't share their point of view. People like FT2 WP:OWN the zoophilia articles, and protect them. In the case of pedophilia, Jimbo decided that for the sake of the health of the project he was going to do the opposite, and simply ban anybody that even vaguely looked like a pedophile. That's how WP works. Not by concensus. Not by reasoned argument. But by people gaining power by subterfuge (see Gerard's oversights of FT2's embarrassing edits prior to FT2's RfA), and then by exercising it to silence the opposition.

You can call me a silly bugger all you like, Lar, and I'll call you a silly bugger right back. It's your site more than mine! I don't exercise power on WP. You're the guy who is the Steward there. If I were you, I'd frankly be embarrassed to mention systemic WP problems, because they all invite the comment of: "We do this on WR because nobody on WP has really addressed the problem."

Wikipedia's problem is far less anonymous editing than anonymous power-wielding in service of hidden POVs. This discussion is about that.

[wikiwhistle]

I find this all confusing as all get out.

Which isn't the end of the world because
a) If it confuses me, it no doubt confuses everyone else, which seems a good thing since you're all busily trying to out people.
b) It's amusing to see all these pseuds industriously trying to connect real life identities together,
and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point. Not to mention WR at its worst. Not that anyone cares but there you go.

Carry on playing silly buggers.

Wouldn't it have freaked this Paul Sinclair bloke out too to have a random bloke Proab phoning him up Pro(a)bing him?

[Milton Roe]

I find this all confusing as all get out.

Which isn't the end of the world because
a) If it confuses me, it no doubt confuses everyone else, which seems a good thing since you're all busily trying to out people.
b) It's amusing to see all these pseuds industriously trying to connect real life identities together,
and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point. Not to mention WR at its worst. Not that anyone cares but there you go.

Carry on playing silly buggers.

Wouldn't it have freaked this Paul Sinclair bloke out too to have a random bloke Proab phoning him up Pro(a)bing him?

Probably. But if he's not FT2 he's probably pretty glad to explain how he's done one WP edit, but had no more to do with it, than that.

[tarantino]

and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

So you, Larry, are not bothered by some anonymous FT2 knowing your secrets?

[dogbiscuit]

and c) It doesn't matter, really, who FT2 is... Who cares? Not me.

So you, Larry, are not bothered by some anonymous FT2 knowing your secrets?

I'm less concerned about FT2, the guy with too much interest in writing bestiality articles with an anthropomorphic slant, than FT2, the power tripper who has sought to remould ArbCom into a tool to do his bidding and who worked in concert with others to alter the history of Wikipedia which by its own policies is supposed to be inviolate except for certain well defined situations.

As an example of the issue, it seems that for a year, the use of oversight to erase a link to a blog entry that was deleted was covered up. The involved parties could have been honest with the community and said this: "Peter made offensive and unsubstantiated accusations of a personal nature in a blog. We took the view that this was inappropriate so correctly used oversight to remove the link. The blog entry no longer exists." I don't even think, with that interpretation, doing it in the middle of the elections would be deemed inappropriate. Clearly FT2 and DG knew what went on, and clearly the evidence was there for all parties to see, yet FT2 and the others have gone out of their way to obscure what went on - DG, happy to stick his nose in on other people's business at the drop of a hat, stays smugly quiet on his own involvement.

My view is that FT2 is his own worst enemy. His dissembling* style generates mistrust. Put simply, he is incapable of giving a straight answer. That makes me want to know why this person is so interested in wielding power on Wikipedia.



*Word of the week, I'm afraid.

[CharlotteWebb]

PrivateMusings talked voice (by Skype) to FT2.

No, no voice chat.

I chatted (I think in gmail text chat - but maybe Skype text?) with FT for about 45mins / an hour on this one, and my recollection of his response to the direct question 'was that edit yours?' was along the lines of 'I have never abused the wiki'

He should have said his mother was a saint.

[EricBarbour]

I really don't give a fig if a WP admin screws pooches (even non metaphorically) and hogties his sex partners (even when they aren't hogs). It's when they push these points of view at the end of a block button that they start becoming at-risk.

That's it. Thank you for summarizing.

And I have no doubt that both FT2 and Gerard are reading this thread, and laughing their heads off.

[wikiwhistle]

I really don't give a fig if a WP admin screws pooches (even non metaphorically) and hogties his sex partners (even when they aren't hogs). It's when they push these points of view at the end of a block button that they start becoming at-risk.

That's it. Thank you for summarizing.

And I have no doubt that both FT2 and Gerard are reading this thread, and laughing their heads off.

You think so? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) DG might be lol, in one of the threads someones' made him sound like something out of Rocky Horror, I don't know if it's true (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) Probably he and his wife are just sat in watching telly tonight like us, not out at the torture garden or something.

[Stochastic23]

For the record I condemn all of this as BS, harrassy, stalky, and missing the point. Not to mention WR at its worst. Not that anyone cares but there you go.

Carry on playing silly buggers.

I have to agree. I've been watching this site for a while before joining and posting but it struck me just how, 'stalky' some wp editors become. Kind of worrying in an amusing way. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

[Eva Destruction]

Did this thread really need reviving?

[Milton Roe]

Did this thread really need reviving?

Yes. It's part of the stalking. Irony time.

[Kelly Martin]

Wow, zombie time.

[Milton Roe]

Wow, zombie time.

AND I totally missed that our zombie thread reviver is the brand new member Random23. Not to be confused with Random832. Doing this with his first and only post. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)