FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2933 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2943 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) Shankbone vs. Kohs, part deux -
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Wed 15th April 2009, 8:43pm)
Our favorite evil queen is back in a new tsk-tsk against the beloved Mr. Kohs:
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Wed 15th April 2009, 8:56pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 15th April 2009, 10:53pm)
I get it. It looks like a newspaper because he's a journalist.
No, it looks like a newspaper because he's a parakeet.
Makes me sad. I had to get rid of budgey. What with the demise of newspapers and all it just cost too much to line the cage with laptops.
Indeed a poor trade.
Fun fact: the inside of a thick never-opened conventionally printed newspaper makes a pretty good surface upon which to rely for cleanliness in emergencies. Such as where to put an emergently born baby, or what to use impromptu on a severe injury. The reason being that the high heat and pressures of the modern high speed press kill bacteria quite well, and the rest of the wrapping process then protects the surfaces from further outside contamination.*
And that's not all. Besides being relatively free of bacteria and viruses, the inside of a modern newspaper is also nearly sterile of imagination, wit, wisdom, perspective, and scholarship, as well. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)
Not that most of what you get over the net on your laptop is any better, and is usually worse. All of this has been eroding per Gresham's Law of the Jungle, these last 20 years. The losers being ye books in ye libraries. Which anon becometh harder and harder to find as the process doth proceed. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)
Let's hope something is found to turn this mess around before the Tragedy of the Commons finally kills it off completely. Not withstanding a lot of fine stuff donated altuistically to the world, the "free information" movement has too often given us only that which we paid for. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif) Such is life.
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David Shankbone:
QUOTE(Shankbone)
He mine as well have just gone the full grandpa distance and thrown in, “That’s what you kids are calling it these days, right? LULZ?â€
QUOTE(Shankbone)
Then, without a clue in the world, Greg goes back to the Wikipedia Review article and tries to undue the changes made by the ED editors to restore it to an earlier version he preferred! Again, grandpa Magoo takes flight in Greg’s edit summary:
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Hahaaha. I just don't see how Shankbone can try to push that stupid blog off as anything but a joke. It's so funny in how completely ridiculous it is. The topics, his writing style, his complete lack of integrity. It's awesome. It's like the Fox News of internet shit no one cares about.
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Hopefully everyone reading this is already aware that the ED "User:Gregory Kohs" is not, in any way whatsoever, the real Gregory Kohs. More likely, it's Shankers himself.
the Internet Review Corporation is watching you...
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QUOTE(Kato @ Thu 16th April 2009, 6:20am)
David Shankbone:
QUOTE('Shankbone')
He mine as well have just gone the full grandpa distance and thrown in, “That’s what you kids are calling it these days, right? LULZ?â€
QUOTE('Shankbone')
Then, without a clue in the world, Greg goes back to the Wikipedia Review article and tries to undue the changes made by the ED editors to restore it to an earlier version he preferred! Again, grandpa Magoo takes flight in Greg’s edit summary:
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I looked but were unable to find any of those particular images that Mr Shankbone is so associated with (gynaecology detailed pictures of male genitalia) on Wikipedia - and here - anywhere on his blog. Why is this? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)
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QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:27am)
Hahaaha. I just don't see how Shankbone can try to push that stupid blog off as anything but a joke. It's so funny in how completely ridiculous it is. The topics, his writing style, his complete lack of integrity. It's awesome. It's like the Fox News of internet shit no one cares about.
But Shanky can get a job a Fox News...doesn't he already know someone who works there (as per an older blog plop)? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)
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QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:01pm)
I looked but were unable to find any of those particular images that Mr Shankbone is so associated with (gynaecology detailed pictures of male genitalia) on Wikipedia - and here - anywhere on his blog. Why is this? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)
He got jimbo to delete them, presumably connected to some posts on his blog about wanting to advance his career in the real world. Perhaps he doesn't want to seem like a type people wouldn't want to employ.
Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
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QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Thu 16th April 2009, 5:25pm)
He got jimbo to delete them, presumably connected to some posts on his blog about wanting to advance his career in the real world. Perhaps he doesn't want to seem like a type people wouldn't want to employ.
Which would then beg the question as to why he would do such a nasty pointless piece on Greg which shouts out personal grudge and failure to grasp the lack of importance of Wikipedia politics in the real world.
I remember the real world, it was much more fun than this one.
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QUOTE('Shankbone')
Everything is...uh...getting to know people on a social level and...from there...PLANS GET DISCUSSED...
At the risk of redundantly repeating this repetitive point for the umpteenth time, this is just more of the same classic hypernarcissistic hoo-ha that we've been getting from Shankers all along.
In other words, getting published has little or nothing to do with talent, creativity, skill, effort, ideas, persistence, or even luck. Instead, getting published is something that happens when you go to a nightclub or a party, and meet someone who knows someone who knows an agent (ad infinitum), and who is naturally super-impressed by some aspect (if not all aspects) of your stellar-perfect personality.
In effect, this is the "extreme version" of the pipe dream Wikipedia sells to all its servants - i.e., the idea that you can "be somebody" by simply sitting in front of a computer, paraphrasing some content found elsewhere, and chatting with people. (Then again, maybe I shouldn't be so critical of them for that, since most other websites don't even require the paraphrased content.)
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:01am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:27am)
Hahaaha. I just don't see how Shankbone can try to push that stupid blog off as anything but a joke. It's so funny in how completely ridiculous it is. The topics, his writing style, his complete lack of integrity. It's awesome. It's like the Fox News of internet shit no one cares about.
But Shanky can get a job a Fox News...doesn't he already know someone who works there (as per an older blog plop)? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)
Ha! Ya, that might hinder his chances of getting hired there. I'd forgotten about that, actually. He criticized Fox in that one, right? Haha, oh... how hypocritical.
QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:25pm)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:01pm)
I looked but were unable to find any of those particular images that Mr Shankbone is so associated with (gynaecology detailed pictures of male genitalia) on Wikipedia - and here - anywhere on his blog. Why is this? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)
He got jimbo to delete them, presumably connected to some posts on his blog about wanting to advance his career in the real world. Perhaps he doesn't want to seem like a type people wouldn't want to employ.
Some of them have been reuploaded by other users with "don't recall the source", for example, in the source field, verified through OTRS. And they no longer have the stupid "_by_David_Shankbone" in the title.
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QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:27pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:01am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:27am)
Hahaaha. I just don't see how Shankbone can try to push that stupid blog off as anything but a joke. It's so funny in how completely ridiculous it is. The topics, his writing style, his complete lack of integrity. It's awesome. It's like the Fox News of internet shit no one cares about.
But Shanky can get a job a Fox News...doesn't he already know someone who works there (as per an older blog plop)? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)
Ha! Ya, that might hinder his chances of getting hired there. I'd forgotten about that, actually. He criticized Fox in that one, right? Haha, oh... how hypocritical.
QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:25pm)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:01pm)
I looked but were unable to find any of those particular images that Mr Shankbone is so associated with (gynaecology detailed pictures of male genitalia) on Wikipedia - and here - anywhere on his blog. Why is this? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)
He got jimbo to delete them, presumably connected to some posts on his blog about wanting to advance his career in the real world. Perhaps he doesn't want to seem like a type people wouldn't want to employ.
Some of them have been reuploaded by other users with "don't recall the source", for example, in the source field, verified through OTRS. And they no longer have the stupid "_by_David_Shankbone" in the title.
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QUOTE(Kato @ Thu 16th April 2009, 11:08pm)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:27pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:01am)
QUOTE(LaraLove @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:27am)
Hahaaha. I just don't see how Shankbone can try to push that stupid blog off as anything but a joke. It's so funny in how completely ridiculous it is. The topics, his writing style, his complete lack of integrity. It's awesome. It's like the Fox News of internet shit no one cares about.
But Shanky can get a job a Fox News...doesn't he already know someone who works there (as per an older blog plop)? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)
Ha! Ya, that might hinder his chances of getting hired there. I'd forgotten about that, actually. He criticized Fox in that one, right? Haha, oh... how hypocritical.
QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:25pm)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 16th April 2009, 12:01pm)
I looked but were unable to find any of those particular images that Mr Shankbone is so associated with (gynaecology detailed pictures of male genitalia) on Wikipedia - and here - anywhere on his blog. Why is this? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)
He got jimbo to delete them, presumably connected to some posts on his blog about wanting to advance his career in the real world. Perhaps he doesn't want to seem like a type people wouldn't want to employ.
Some of them have been reuploaded by other users with "don't recall the source", for example, in the source field, verified through OTRS. And they no longer have the stupid "_by_David_Shankbone" in the title.
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So now David has resorted to googlebombing his Kohs article up the Google rankings by tagging the blog entry with Greg's place of employment, his position there, etc, etc. How utterly vindictive and how absolutely juvenile. He's like a tweenager indulging in a MySpace tiff.
Seriously, David - I know you're reading this. Please do us all a favour and grow up. You're a big child!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/angry.gif)
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QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 17th April 2009, 1:03am)
So now David has resorted to googlebombing his Kohs article up the Google rankings by tagging the blog entry with Greg's place of employment, his position there, etc, etc. How utterly vindictive and how absolutely juvenile. He's like a tweenager indulging in a MySpace tiff.
Seriously, David - I know you're reading this. Please do us all a favour and grow up. You're a big child!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/angry.gif)
Why is this man not banned from all Wikimedia sites? His off-wiki and on-wiki behavior is deplorable and if he were anyone else, he would have been banned a long time ago.
For goodness sakes, Moulton was banned for less! (Sorry to drag you into this, Moulton).
Why is this man not banned from all Wikimedia sites? His off-wiki and on-wiki behavior is deplorable and if he were anyone else, he would have been banned a long time ago.
For goodness sakes, Moulton was banned for less! (Sorry to drag you into this, Moulton).
When Mr. Paschal Lamb first showed up here on W-R, I wrote this...
QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 28th January 2008, 12:55pm)
Picking out one bad actor to be the poster child for all bad actors is convenient but unfair, because it scapegoats the poster child who gets the lion's share of the negative attention.
Doubleplus, banishing the designated scapegoat to the desert doesn't fix the generic problem. It just votes the worst bad actor du jour off the island, thereby creating an attention vacuum for the next scapegoat du jour.
Why is this man not banned from all Wikimedia sites? His off-wiki and on-wiki behavior is deplorable and if he were anyone else, he would have been banned a long time ago.
For goodness sakes, Moulton was banned for less! (Sorry to drag you into this, Moulton).
When Mr. Paschal Lamb first showed up here on W-R, I wrote this...
QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 28th January 2008, 12:55pm)
Picking out one bad actor to be the poster child for all bad actors is convenient but unfair, because it scapegoats the poster child who gets the lion's share of the negative attention.
Doubleplus, banishing the designated scapegoat to the desert doesn't fix the generic problem. It just votes the worst bad actor du jour off the island, thereby creating an attention vacuum for the next scapegoat du jour.
Exile may not solve the problem, but as Shankbone is a prominent Wikipedian who wraps his reputation as a photographer and journalist around WikiNews and Wikipedia, you would think that the English Wikipedia community, WikiNews, and the Foundation would denounce him and distance themselves away from Shankbone.
I'm just shocked that there is so little outrage over his libelous statements against Greg and The Fiery Angel. It's maddening and heartbreaking that he continues to do this and hurt people. Even worse, no one except us is standing up and admonishing him.
I'm not naive. I know people like Shankbone are out there. The lack of admonishment of his actions depresses and angers me more.
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 17th April 2009, 12:46am)
I'm not naive. I know people like Shankbone are out there. The lack of admonishment of his actions depresses and angers me more.
For me, sometimes it helps to remember that deep down, in their heart of hearts, as they walk the long, winding road of life, watching the sun rise and set day by day, hearing the laughter of children, and feeling the sand beneath their feet on some faraway beach, each and every one of the people who contribute to Wikipedia is full of pure, malicious evil.
I'm not sure why, but I just feel better knowing that.
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QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:03am)
So now David has resorted to googlebombing his Kohs article up the Google rankings by tagging the blog entry with Greg's place of employment, his position there, etc, etc. How utterly vindictive and how absolutely juvenile. He's like a tweenager indulging in a MySpace tiff.
Seriously, David - I know you're reading this. Please do us all a favour and grow up. You're a big child!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/angry.gif)
Who do we notifiy at the Foundation to tell them that they need to remove Shankbone's blog from their blog distro list?
Perhaps CharlotteWebb and Acalamari could please explain this.
QUOTE
David, I don't know how other to say this but if anybody has actually suggested we would be better off if you left us, they are a fucking idiot. Three thousand free photos. Wow. Just wow. Please don't quit. — CharlotteWebb 15:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC) I agree with CharlotteWebb, too. Your work here has been excellent, and I still remember those great images you got for the Daniel Rodriguez article. 3,000 free images from a single contributor...that's amazing. Acalamari 21:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Why do people tolerate him? Are the photos and the Wikinews stuff worth all this abuse?
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Fri 17th April 2009, 12:39am)
QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:03am)
So now David has resorted to googlebombing his Kohs article up the Google rankings by tagging the blog entry with Greg's place of employment, his position there, etc, etc. How utterly vindictive and how absolutely juvenile. He's like a tweenager indulging in a MySpace tiff.
Seriously, David - I know you're reading this. Please do us all a favour and grow up. You're a big child!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/angry.gif)
Who do we notifiy at the Foundation to tell them that they need to remove Shankbone's blog from their blog distro list?
I've already discussed the matter over email with Jimmy tonight. Let's see if anything happens.
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Fri 17th April 2009, 8:39am)
QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:03am)
So now David has resorted to googlebombing his Kohs article up the Google rankings by tagging the blog entry with Greg's place of employment, his position there, etc, etc. How utterly vindictive and how absolutely juvenile. He's like a tweenager indulging in a MySpace tiff.
Seriously, David - I know you're reading this. Please do us all a favour and grow up. You're a big child!! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/angry.gif)
Who do we notifiy at the Foundation to tell them that they need to remove Shankbone's blog from their blog distro list?
I thought they did? Or was that just for Wikipedia? Jimbo said he wanted it removed.
Why is this man not banned from all Wikimedia sites? His off-wiki and on-wiki behavior is deplorable and if he were anyone else, he would have been banned a long time ago.
For goodness sakes, Moulton was banned for less! (Sorry to drag you into this, Moulton).
When Mr. Paschal Lamb first showed up here on W-R, I wrote this...
QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 28th January 2008, 12:55pm)
Picking out one bad actor to be the poster child for all bad actors is convenient but unfair, because it scapegoats the poster child who gets the lion's share of the negative attention.
Doubleplus, banishing the designated scapegoat to the desert doesn't fix the generic problem. It just votes the worst bad actor du jour off the island, thereby creating an attention vacuum for the next scapegoat du jour.
Exile may not solve the problem, but as Shankbone is a prominent Wikipedian who wraps his reputation as a photographer and journalist around WikiNews and Wikipedia, you would think that the English Wikipedia community, WikiNews, and the Foundation would denounce him and distance themselves away from Shankbone.
I'm just shocked that there is so little outrage over his libelous statements against Greg and The Fiery Angel. It's maddening and heartbreaking that he continues to do this and hurt people. Even worse, no one except us is standing up and admonishing him.
I'm not naive. I know people like Shankbone are out there. The lack of admonishment of his actions depresses and angers me more.
The problem is that Shankbone has no empathy for his victims and no remorse. Or, as Gomi puts it, he exhibits traits of narcissistic sociopathy.
For such individuals, admonishment and other traditional forms of shaming and/or guilt tripping are ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. Such unbecoming tactics tend to displace any fragile feelings of remorse — the crucial emotional state upon which a constructive change of behavior might otherwise have emerged, going forward.
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 17th April 2009, 1:46am)
Exile may not solve the problem, but as Shankbone is a prominent Wikipedian who wraps his reputation as a photographer and journalist around WikiNews and Wikipedia, you would think that the English Wikipedia community, WikiNews, and the Foundation would denounce him and distance themselves away from Shankbone.
I'm just shocked that there is so little outrage over his libelous statements against Greg and The Fiery Angel. It's maddening and heartbreaking that he continues to do this and hurt people. Even worse, no one except us is standing up and admonishing him.
I'm not naive. I know people like Shankbone are out there. The lack of admonishment of his actions depresses and angers me more.
"Prominent"? "Reputation as a photographer and journalist"? Who are we talking about? He's just, by his own admission, a failed would-be lawyer with serious emotional issues who sticks free photos online and gets invited on junkets because he gives away interviews to Wikinews.
Has Mr. Miller (I am not using his idiotic pseudonym anymore) ever been paid for his work? Any shmuck can click snapshots and put them online -- that doesn't make you a professional photographer. And which professional media sources paid for his articles? Outside of Wikinews and his increasingly deranged blog, I am unaware of his work being published anywhere.
For such individuals, admonishment and other traditional forms of shaming and/or guilt tripping are ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. Such unbecoming tactics tend to displace any fragile feelings of remorse — the crucial emotional state upon which a constructive change of behavior might otherwise have emerged, going forward.
Do you have any constructive suggestions? I don't believe anyone here seriously believes there's a way to get Shankers to change his behavior, unless it's for the worse. The issue we're dealing with here is that Wikipedia encourages him, quite openly and directly, by including him on their stupid-ass "Planet Wikimedia" group blog site, among other things. (Yeah, some "planet"! Almost makes you wish Global Warming would get going a little faster.)
I will at least say that 3,000 uploaded photos is an impressive number of uploaded photos. Not technically difficult with today's technology, but still... awfully time-consuming, and even in New York City it must have been hard to find some of those things. The question is, can he legally demand that all of those photos be deleted if he gets blocked, or banned... or even dropped from their group blog? Because you know he'll try, there's no question of that. I have to believe that's what's holding them back - it certainly can't be his behavior, that's for sure.
Tell me what puzzles or perplexes you, and we can define a research project around it.
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 11:56am)
QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 17th April 2009, 9:09am)
For such individuals, admonishment and other traditional forms of shaming and/or guilt tripping are ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. Such unbecoming tactics tend to displace any fragile feelings of remorse — the crucial emotional state upon which a constructive change of behavior might otherwise have emerged, going forward.
Do you have any constructive suggestions?
Yes.
But Cognitive Behavioral Therapy requires protracted dialogue, which is not supported here.
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 11:56am)
I don't believe anyone here seriously believes there's a way to get Shankers to change his behavior, unless it's for the worse.
There is a way for him to change his behavior, but not a way for anyone here to coerce or manipulate such a change by means of rebuke.
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 17th April 2009, 9:17am)
Perhaps CharlotteWebb and Acalamari could please explain this.
Heh. People criticize me for a lot of things, but of these "focusing too much on people's good sides" is among the rarest.
I've never had the pleasure (or displeasure) of directly interacting with David, I've only noticed photos on a conspicuously great many of the biographical articles I've read and edited. I sure don't read his blog, and I'm not going to complain if somebody declares it a BADSITE if that's what it mostly is.
I'm also not going to complain if some of his uploads are deleted if plainly established to have no encyclopedic use. I've heard a few of them are, well, gross but I do know most of the ones I've seen are an unambiguous asset to the project ([1][2][3], etc.) without which we'd be stuck (in most cases) with no image, "fair use" images, or images dubiously uploaded as "free" by a single-purpose account. Sure, find the bad ones (such as this one which clearly violates BLP) and nominate them for deletion but try not personalize the issue, resort to name-calling, etc.
Content over conduct, matter over mind, deeds over words, however you want to look at it. You have to weigh the pros and cons of everything, and I stand by my previous statement that banning him (or intentionally pissing him off) would do the project more harm than good.
As a wholly practical matter consider that prolific photographers are the last people we'd want to have issuing take-down notices in the event of a license change. At least for article text one can re-write completely from scratch and reach a similar level of quality, much more easily than one can obtain a free picture of a specific person.
Sure people take pictures of people all the time but I doubt I've ever set foot close enough to photograph anyone who has an article on WP (always up in the cheap seats I guess). I know anyone can do it but most people don't, plus there's a lot to be said about having connections (and a camera handy at all times—and a willingness to do it for free, release it as "free", but allow other people to make money off it). Most people fail in at least one of these areas.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 11:56am)
The question is, can he legally demand that all of those photos be deleted
Licenses are not revokable, once granted, for a particular version of an image.
He can demand whatever he wants, the important question is whether Commons is bound to delete them. The Commons community has a long standing practice of deleting images at the request of the uploader if they are not in use, but that's a courtesy granted to editors in good standing.
A considerable fraction of the images that David has contributed are the best image that the project has of the subject. In some cases by a wide margin. On the other hand, some are not, and are replaceable. Further, some of the images strike me as not particularly useful at all.
If an image is among the best we have of a topic, and is in use, I'd be arguing against its deletion.
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Fri 17th April 2009, 3:39am)
Who do we notifiy at the Foundation to tell them that they need to remove Shankbone's blog from their blog distro list?
In January, at Miller's request, his blog was taken off the Meta blog aggregator "Planet Wikimedia" (scroll down to "Requests for Removal")
Wikipedia has its own aggregator, "Open Wiki Blog Planet" (why pick a name that can be so easily confused with "Planet Wikimedia"??). Apparently User:Nickj operates it from this Wikipedia page. The discussion page has a removal request from Kelly's Nonbovine Ruminations blog. Miller's blog is still listed (see link "87")
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QUOTE(Noroton @ Fri 17th April 2009, 4:49pm)
The discussion page has a removal request from Kelly's Nonbovine Ruminations blog.
Well yes unless I'm missing something it does seem outrageous that one would consider Kelly's blog more offensive than David's. I shouldn't be surprised though.
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QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 17th April 2009, 12:48pm)
Licenses are not revokable, once granted, for a particular version of an image.
The licenses themselves say that they're not revocable, but to quote Eugene Volokh: "Nonexclusive licenses given for free are generally revocable, even if they purport to be irrevocable."
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QUOTE(MrM @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:06pm)
QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 17th April 2009, 12:48pm)
Licenses are not revokable, once granted, for a particular version of an image.
The licenses themselves say that they're not revocable, but to quote Eugene Volokh: "Nonexclusive licenses given for free are generally revocable, even if they purport to be irrevocable."
Like the err... editnotice... says, "Please source your claims and provide links where appropriate".
The second challenge, though, is more disturbing. In the same article, Eugene Volokh, a law professor at UCLA, indicated that he felt the GPL could be challenged because no money changed hands. "'Nonexclusive licenses given for free are generally revocable, even if they purport to be irrevocable,' Volokh said. 'Even if the GPL license in cphack is treated as signed and is covered by 205(e), it might still be revocable by Mattel as the new owners of the cphack copyright.'"
To know whether the example he cited should mean anything to us we'd have to understand the incident in question, which doesn't seem to be mentioned on Wikipedia at all (!) but here's one summary of it:
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 17th April 2009, 1:04pm)
Well yes unless I'm missing something it does seem outrageous that one would consider Kelly's blog more offensive than David's. I shouldn't be surprised though.
"Outrageousness" is an interesting concept here. Wikipedia tolerates an editor's stated belief in anything, and probably just about any non-Wikipedia-related actions by any editor. I think Idi Amin, if he were still alive, could be an editor in good standing, editing articles between bites of human flesh, as long as he wasn't eating another Wikipedian.
Bedford, on the other hand, was desysopped (but not banned as an editor) by Jimbo, partly because of some statements made online but off Wiki, if I remember correctly. It had something to do with derogatory statements about women, but my memory is vague about it. And it dealt with specific Wikipedia editors, or could be interpreted that way, but again, my memory is vague.
These seem to be some of the de facto rules for being sanctioned in some way for outrageousness (other than obvious bad behavior on wiki):
1. You can put up any photo you want on your own user page, no matter how pornographic (see the current AN page for a discussion of that. Privatemusings started it). Unless, of course, it depicts children.
2. You can do anything you want to a non-Wikipedian off wiki.
3. Offend fellow Wikipedians with sexist comments and you're nearing the boundary. Make a sexist comment *about* a fellow Wikipedian and you've crossed the line, on wiki or off. Probably anti-gay or racist comments would also get you over the line into sanctionable territory, but only if directly connected with a fellow Wikipedian.
If I had to bet, I'd bet against the Shankbone blog being yanked from the Wikipedia blog aggregator, although the standards there probably should be even higher than what Wikipedia would tolerate in an admin before removing the tools. Mr. Miller has probably made the same calculation and is keeping just on the safe side of the line -- just where the maximum level of drama and tolerable outrageousness would be.
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QUOTE(Noroton @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:35pm)
Bedford, on the other hand, was desysopped (but not banned as an editor) by Jimbo, partly because of some statements made online but off Wiki, if I remember correctly. It had something to do with derogatory statements about women, but my memory is vague about it.
Ah hah, so this must be why everyone assumed Bedford was trolling when he implied Shankbone's photo was creating BLP problems on the Sarah Palin article! No, it's because he's a right-wing nutter, or no, it's because he's homophobic and this was just part of some blog war between him and Shankers!
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. Dave Mason said so.
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[Shankers] has probably made the same calculation and is keeping just on the safe side of the line -- just where the maximum level of drama and tolerable outrageousness would be.
Well, you might be giving him a little too much credit for thought put into his statements.
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 17th April 2009, 2:11pm)
Ah hah, so this must be why everyone assumed Bedford was trolling when he implied Shankbone's photo was creating BLP problems on the Sarah Palin article! No, it's because he's a right-wing nutter, or no, it's because he's homophobic and this was just part of some blog war between him and Shankers!
Bah! Nothing wrong with being a right-wing nutter!
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 17th April 2009, 2:11pm)
QUOTE
[Shankers] has probably made the same calculation and is keeping just on the safe side of the line -- just where the maximum level of drama and tolerable outrageousness would be.
Well, you might be giving him a little too much credit for thought put into his statements.
Maybe. It's probably more like a feeling of entering dangerous territory than much of a thought, but I'm happier being ignorant about it, which, as usual, means I probably should've shut up a while ago.
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 11:08am)
Why do you think they encourage him?
Ehh, I seem to have gotten confused as to which "blog aggregator" he's on, and it could be argued that the one he's on now isn't as "official" as the first one, which means he's not being encouraged to the same extent he was a few months ago.
But as Moulton suggested, given the nature of NPD, his removal from the preferred blog aggregator probably just made him nastier, given that he can now self-justify by saying "they dropped me from their blog aggregator, so I'm going to get my revenge," blah blah blah.
The fact remains that there will always be a handful of Wikipedia Uber Alles types for whom someone like Shankers can do no wrong, simply because they see him as some sort of rottweiler-ish attack dog. And when a person is that far gone, narcissism-wise, that's all it takes - unless he receives (for all practical purposes) unanimous repudiation, he'll always be able to say, "but so-and-so knows me and thinks I'm a great guy, so what's your problem?" ...and just keep on doing what he does.
All I can do, speaking only for myself, is continue to point out that as long as Shankers remains unbanned and/or tolerated on Wikipedia, nobody from Wikipedia should be deemed to have any legitimate right to complain about how we operate or what we post here on WR, or even to complain about Encyclopedia Dramatica. To suggest otherwise is utterly laughable. We will always have and maintain the "moral high ground" over Wikipedia, as long as this situation continues.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 4:15pm)
The fact remains that there will always be a handful of Wikipedia Uber Alles types for whom someone like Shankers can do no wrong, simply because they see him as some sort of rottweiler-ish attack dog. And when a person is that far gone, narcissism-wise, that's all it takes - unless he receives (for all practical purposes) unanimous repudiation, he'll always be able to say, "but so-and-so knows me and thinks I'm a great guy, so what's your problem?" ...and just keep on doing what he does.
As long as it's seen as a contest between competing tribes, the contest is likely to continue whilst the pep squads cheer on their respective teams.
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 4:15pm)
All I can do, speaking only for myself, is continue to point out that as long as Shankers remains unbanned and/or tolerated on Wikipedia, nobody from Wikipedia should be deemed to have any legitimate right to complain about how we operate or what we post here on WR, or even to complain about Encyclopedia Dramatica. To suggest otherwise is utterly laughable. We will always have and maintain the "moral high ground" over Wikipedia, as long as this situation continues.
The problem with moral relativism is that the contestants tend to think they are winning if they doing at least incrementally better than the other guy. What moral relativism overlooks is that the whole arena can be ineluctably sinking into the dark and deplorable depths of damnable depravity.
The fact remains that there will always be a handful of Wikipedia Uber Alles types for whom someone like Shankers can do no wrong, simply because they see him as some sort of rottweiler-ish attack dog. And when a person is that far gone, narcissism-wise, that's all it takes — unless he receives (for all practical purposes) unanimous repudiation, he'll always be able to say, "but so-and-so knows me and thinks I'm a great guy, so what's your problem?" … and just keep on doing what he does.
As long as it's seen as a contest between competing tribes, the contest is likely to continue whilst the pep squads cheer on their respective teams.
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 4:15pm)
All I can do, speaking only for myself, is continue to point out that as long as Shankers remains unbanned and/or tolerated on Wikipedia, nobody from Wikipedia should be deemed to have any legitimate right to complain about how we operate or what we post here on WR, or even to complain about Encyclopedia Dramatica. To suggest otherwise is utterly laughable. We will always have and maintain the "moral high ground" over Wikipedia, as long as this situation continues.
The problem with moral relativism is that the contestants tend to think they are winning if they doing at least incrementally better than the other guy. What moral relativism overlooks is that the whole arena can be ineluctably sinking into the dark and deplorable depths of damnable depravity.
Hobgoblind o' th' Duelist Mind, Batman! Why is everyone always so oblivious to the Turdium Quid who always wins, the one who rents out the stadium?
I guess my guess would have to be that Skunkboner gets e-couraged to whatever extent he does because he's a representative sampleton of the target market that Jimbo guesses he'll get the greatest return pandering to. In this case, it's a brand of mutual pandering — Panders Of A Feather Pimp Together.
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 17th April 2009, 3:45pm)
I guess my guess would have to be that Skunkboner gets e-couraged to whatever extent he does because he's a representative sampleton of the target market that Jimbo guesses he'll get the greatest return pandering to. In this case, it's a brand of mutual pandering — Panders Of A Feather Pimp Together.
That's it exactly, isn't it?
In the days before The Social Web Revolution™, there was a reasonably clear distinction between recognition and notoriety. The distinction is still there, but it's obscured by the web's immediacy and cheap accessibility. So, the classic hypernarcissist personality can't see the distinction, or doesn't want to.
And to make matters worse, everything on the "social web" is so hopelessly based on instant gratification that a hypernarcissist who's in his mid-20's - who grew up with this state of affairs and perhaps can't actually remember a time when things were any different - is simply lost in it. It might not even have occurred to him that some people wouldn't respect and admire him merely for his ability to get attention by behaving in ways that demonstrate moral bankruptcy and sociopathic tendencies.
Ultimately, that's the genius of Wikipedia: It panders to precisely that sort of person, and the pandering is built right into the software. It's literally the very core of the system.
I guess my guess would have to be that Skunkboner gets e-couraged to whatever extent he does because he's a representative sampleton of the target market that Jimbo guesses he'll get the greatest return pandering to. In this case, it's a brand of mutual pandering — Panders Of A Feather Pimp Together.
That's it exactly, isn't it?
In the days before The Social Web Revolution™, there was a reasonably clear distinction between recognition and notoriety. The distinction is still there, but the classic hypernarcissist personality can't see it, or doesn't want to.
And to make matters worse, everything is so immediate, so hopelessly based on instant gratification, that a hypernarcissist who's in his mid-20's — who grew up with this state of affairs — can't actually remember a time when things were any different. It might not even have occurred to him that some people wouldn't respect and admire him merely for his ability to get attention by behaving in ways that demonstrate moral bankruptcy and sociopathic tendencies.
Ultimately, that's the genius of Wikipedia: It panders to precisely that sort of person, and the pandering is built right into the software. It's literally the very core of the system.
Good, that's settled, this Turkey's done — let's accord him now his richly deserved oblivion and move on to mo bettah subjects.
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Well, it's 404'd now, so I guess David saw sense and took it down. I've no idea as to what he was trying to achieve with that blog entry in the first place, other than trying to garner attention (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)
Yeah, I've been ignoring the guy and his nonsense. No sense in feeding him & besides, I've much better things to do in RL (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif)
What he doesn't realize re. Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez is that I became involved with her article as a result of a distraught message relating to oversight. While I cannot discuss the details of course, and it didn't fall under Oversight remit, but I did my best at the time to limit the damage that David had been doing with her BLP on Wikipedia. He's pretty-much had it in for me since then. Ms. Valdes-Rodriguez was concerned at the time that he was beginning to obsess with her. Needless to say, Mr. Shankbone is totally unaware of the oversight background to this, nor of the subject's pleas. This was last February or thereabouts. It's all in the edit history.
She said on her blog at the time;
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I stupid[ly] set about trying to rid Wikipedia of the sexuality stuff, in hopes of minimizing the very real danger to me and my family at the hands of these obsessed and dangerous detractors. It only made the issue bigger, in particular because a man named David Shankbone, who is a self-proclaimed editor at Wikipedia (and frustrated writer) became obsessed with me too.
This is the kind of stuff that Mr. Shankbone thinks is okay to place, unsourced*, into someone's BLP, and explicitly against their wishes. Folks already know all this. And what's missing from this picture? Kindness, consideration, decency.
Notice how he misspells the word "gun" in the photo's filename as "guy," so that it would get past the POV-patrollers when he uploaded it. He's clever, I'll give him that much!
Unfortunately, as you say, he's also a self-serving liar. If only he could use his innate cleverness for goodness, instead of badness... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 17th April 2009, 5:04pm)
QUOTE(Noroton @ Fri 17th April 2009, 4:49pm)
The discussion page has a removal request from Kelly's Nonbovine Ruminations blog.
Well yes unless I'm missing something it does seem outrageous that one would consider Kelly's blog more offensive than David's. I shouldn't be surprised though.
If you'd read the request, you'd have noticed that it was not on the basis of being offensive, but on the basis of not being wikimedia-related - and, indeed, except for a few "Image via Wikimedia Commons", there is no mention of anything "wiki" at all in seven pages of archives.
QUOTE(Alison @ Tue 21st April 2009, 4:52pm)
And what's missing from this picture? Kindness, consideration, decency.
To be fair, libeling a publication by claiming that something said on the record in an interview was a fabrication doesn't show a lot of kindness, consideration, or decency, either.
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QUOTE(Alison @ Tue 21st April 2009, 12:52pm)
This is the kind of stuff that Mr. Shankbone thinks is okay to place, unsourced*, into someone's BLP, and explicitly against their wishes. Folks already know all this. And what's missing from this picture? Kindness, consideration, decency.
[...]
(* yes, unsourced. The 'sources' cited were utterly unacceptable)
His lack of empathy just continues to surprise me. It shouldn't, but it does.
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QUOTE(Random832 @ Tue 21st April 2009, 10:13am)
QUOTE(Alison @ Tue 21st April 2009, 4:52pm)
And what's missing from this picture? Kindness, consideration, decency.
To be fair, libeling a publication by claiming that something said on the record in an interview was a fabrication doesn't show a lot of kindness, consideration, or decency, either.
That's true, but there's the matter of two wrongs an' all that ...
(and the 'fabrication' was her own, according to herself)
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Shankbone vs. Kohs, part deux
