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> Shoemaker's Holiday flames out
GlassBeadGame
post Sat 21st November 2009, 7:05pm
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 1:57pm) *

QUOTE(anthony @ Sat 21st November 2009, 2:06pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:59pm) *

Durova, now might be a good time to finally disclose -- why exactly was Episode 45 of Wikivoices suppressed by Adam Cuerden?


Just another "great success story" for unorganized crowdsourcing. Things like this happen when you work on the belief that "volunteers can't be told what to do".


Anthony, sometimes within a pool of volunteer labor you get what you pay for. wink.gif


No need to denigrate volunteers. Volunteer do wonderful things. They build houses for the homeless and feed the hungry. They are held accountable for their actions. They are vetted and supervised. What we are taking about here is something else...and less. Mere content providers like you and your other Wikipedians are every bit as irresponsible as you indicate here. Not just sometimes either. But there is no reason to soil volunteers with your faults.
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anthony
post Sat 21st November 2009, 7:15pm
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 6:57pm) *

QUOTE(anthony @ Sat 21st November 2009, 2:06pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:59pm) *

Durova, now might be a good time to finally disclose -- why exactly was Episode 45 of Wikivoices suppressed by Adam Cuerden?


Just another "great success story" for unorganized crowdsourcing. Things like this happen when you work on the belief that "volunteers can't be told what to do".


Anthony, sometimes within a pool of volunteer labor you get what you pay for. wink.gif


And sometimes you get more than you paid for. Volunteers can be productive, and volunteers can be counter-productive. Just because you're a volunteer project doesn't mean you can't weed out the counter-productive individuals.

Productive volunteers *want* to be told what to do. Like any other worker they don't want to be micromanaged - most want a high degree of creative freedom. But you don't tell a bunch of Habitat for Humanity volunteers "there are a bunch of pieces of wood, some nails, and some hammers; go do something cool with it".

I suspect that sooner or later people are going to stop participating in Wikivoices if y'all don't get your act together. These copyright issues should be resolved before the session starts.

This post has been edited by anthony: Sat 21st November 2009, 7:22pm
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gomi
post Sat 21st November 2009, 7:19pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 4:40pm) *
Shoemaker's Holiday (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been showing a penchant for histrionics ever since "health problems" meant he was "unable to go to university this year," which seems to have resulted in "a complete breakdown" that Durova was "fully aware of." ...
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 10:45pm) *
QUOTE(trenton @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:36am) *
Out of two people, one of whom is Durova, I would never have imagined the other person being labeled the drama-magnet tongue.gif
... I would say Durova is more like a large piece of drama-iron who is irresistibly attracted to drama-magnets, ... she ... only deliberately gets involved in them and draws more unnecessary attention to them, often not for the general betterment of all.

I suppose the answer to this is so obvious as to make it a non-question, but why is it that the Wikipedia drama-mongers, drama-whores, etc are all, to some significant degree, bent, damaged, or broken people? I mean, they can't go to college because of some unspecified health problem, or they edit in bizarre 36-hour stretches, they've been disbarred, they're philanderers or they fondle animals, or they're nationalist or religious zealots. It goes on and on.

I'll answer my own question: I suppose the bizarre, broken, damaged people drive the normal ones out, and any normal people who persist can be expected to keep a low profile, out of natural reticence and also self-preservation. But still. It's so much worse than one would expect.
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GlassBeadGame
post Sat 21st November 2009, 7:30pm
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QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 21st November 2009, 2:19pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 4:40pm) *
Shoemaker's Holiday (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been showing a penchant for histrionics ever since "health problems" meant he was "unable to go to university this year," which seems to have resulted in "a complete breakdown" that Durova was "fully aware of." ...
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 10:45pm) *
QUOTE(trenton @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:36am) *
Out of two people, one of whom is Durova, I would never have imagined the other person being labeled the drama-magnet tongue.gif
... I would say Durova is more like a large piece of drama-iron who is irresistibly attracted to drama-magnets, ... she ... only deliberately gets involved in them and draws more unnecessary attention to them, often not for the general betterment of all.

I suppose the answer to this is so obvious as to make it a non-question, but why is it that the Wikipedia drama-mongers, drama-whores, etc are all, to some significant degree, bent, damaged, or broken people? I mean, they can't go to college because of some unspecified health problem, or they edit in bizarre 36-hour stretches, they've been disbarred, they're philanderers or they fondle animals, or they're nationalist or religious zealots. It goes on and on.

I'll answer my own question: I suppose the bizarre, broken, damaged people drive the normal ones out, and any normal people who persist can be expected to keep a low profile, out of natural reticence and also self-preservation. But still. It's so much worse than one would expect.



This why I like the word "monster" to describe Ms. Durova and other like her. The word has two important aspects. First the idea of deformity and distortion. Second, most related to the words origin, the making a show or display. Almost a perfect word to describe them.
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sat 21st November 2009, 8:34pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sat 21st November 2009, 7:30pm) *

QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 21st November 2009, 2:19pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 4:40pm) *
Shoemaker's Holiday (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been showing a penchant for histrionics ever since "health problems" meant he was "unable to go to university this year," which seems to have resulted in "a complete breakdown" that Durova was "fully aware of." ...
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 10:45pm) *
QUOTE(trenton @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:36am) *
Out of two people, one of whom is Durova, I would never have imagined the other person being labeled the drama-magnet tongue.gif
... I would say Durova is more like a large piece of drama-iron who is irresistibly attracted to drama-magnets, ... she ... only deliberately gets involved in them and draws more unnecessary attention to them, often not for the general betterment of all.

I suppose the answer to this is so obvious as to make it a non-question, but why is it that the Wikipedia drama-mongers, drama-whores, etc are all, to some significant degree, bent, damaged, or broken people? I mean, they can't go to college because of some unspecified health problem, or they edit in bizarre 36-hour stretches, they've been disbarred, they're philanderers or they fondle animals, or they're nationalist or religious zealots. It goes on and on.

I'll answer my own question: I suppose the bizarre, broken, damaged people drive the normal ones out, and any normal people who persist can be expected to keep a low profile, out of natural reticence and also self-preservation. But still. It's so much worse than one would expect.



This why I like the word "monster" to describe Ms. Durova and other like her. The word has two important aspects. First the idea of deformity and distortion. Second, most related to the words origin, the making a show or display. Almost a perfect word to describe them.


Dehumanizing people isn't a very effective way to develop insight. The reason I stood up for Shoemaker's Holiday, at first, was simple: his arbitration was a nonemergency case that began voting twelve hours after it opened while he was requesting time to study for university exams. Not to get into all the ins and outs of why it was a bad case, it's one of only two in site history that ArbCom has vacated (the other was Orangemarlin).

Before that arbitration case he had never been in formal dispute resolution and had been basically uncontroversial. The only area where he had locked horns with other editors had been homeopathy--and pretty much anybody gets into conflict there (homeopaths and allopaths playing tug o' war with the NPOV rope).

So during arbitration I got to know the fellow, discovered some of our editing interests overlapped, and was truly impressed with his work. He writes featured articles about Gilbert and Sullivan; he restores eighteenth century engravings. What's not to respect about that? The arbitration case had obviously taken a lot out of him. I was angry about how his case had gone and worried about what WMF had nearly lost, especially in terms of audio restoration: due to copyright laws, public domain audio often means restoring wax cylinders. This dude restored Enrico Caruso's singing. There was no other volunteer who who had those skills until Shoemaker trained more people.

I hoped the outbursts would subside, especially after the arbitration got vacated. Didn't happen. Am not sure whether he was always that way but it just hadn't surfaced or whether the arbitration changed him. That prospect might seem silly from a distance, but Wikipedia's arbitration process really is tough on the people who sit in the hot seat. One of the ways arbitration works is by putting people through so much stress that some of them become erratic and demonstrate that sanctions are necessary. That's not an intentional feature of the system, but no Wikipedia arbitrator has ever been on the short end of a case. They haven't walked a mile in the moccasins.

This post has been edited by Wiki Witch of the West: Sat 21st November 2009, 8:37pm
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GlassBeadGame
post Sat 21st November 2009, 8:58pm
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 3:34pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sat 21st November 2009, 7:30pm) *



This why I like the word "monster" to describe Ms. Durova and other like her. The word has two important aspects. First the idea of deformity and distortion. Second, most related to the words origin, the making a show or display. Almost a perfect word to describe them.


Dehumanizing people isn't a very effective way to develop insight.


Your humanness is part of what makes you a monster. But not to worry. I will not be taking you out with a predator drone, cruise missile or massive B52 bomb drop. Only criticizing you.
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EricBarbour
post Sat 21st November 2009, 9:47pm
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QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 21st November 2009, 11:19am) *
I suppose the answer to this is so obvious as to make it a non-question, but why is it that the Wikipedia drama-mongers, drama-whores, etc are all, to some significant degree, bent, damaged, or broken people? I mean, they can't go to college because of some unspecified health problem, or they edit in bizarre 36-hour stretches, they've been disbarred, they're philanderers or they fondle animals, or they're nationalist or religious zealots. It goes on and on.

Because Wikipedia is the only "hobby site" that will have them?

If you ran a forum about some obscure subject, would you let someone like Lise Broer have the run of the place, or give her sysop powers? I might let her in, but wouldn't ever in hell give her the keys to the place. The way Jimbo's Magical Flea Circus did.

(And to be complete and equable, I'd treat Shoemaker's Holiday in a similar fashion. Don't trust either of them.)

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Sarcasticidealist
post Sat 21st November 2009, 9:51pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 21st November 2009, 6:47pm) *
If you ran a forum about some obscure subject, would you let someone like Lise Broer have the run of the place, or give her sysop powers? I might let her in, but wouldn't ever in hell give her the keys to the place. The way Jimbo's Magical Flea Circus did.
I don't think I can concede that Wikipedia's poor/non-existent governance is unique or even unusual among online communities. When you combine it with the stated goal, financial backing, and general prominence, it probably becomes somewhat more so, but online communities as a whole tend to be extremely poorly governed. They also tend to attract people who don't function so well in offline communities, so Wikipedia's not unique there either.
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MZMcBride
post Sat 21st November 2009, 11:38pm
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QUOTE(gomi @ Sat 21st November 2009, 2:19pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 4:40pm) *
Shoemaker's Holiday (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been showing a penchant for histrionics ever since "health problems" meant he was "unable to go to university this year," which seems to have resulted in "a complete breakdown" that Durova was "fully aware of." ...
QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 20th November 2009, 10:45pm) *
QUOTE(trenton @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:36am) *
Out of two people, one of whom is Durova, I would never have imagined the other person being labeled the drama-magnet tongue.gif
... I would say Durova is more like a large piece of drama-iron who is irresistibly attracted to drama-magnets, ... she ... only deliberately gets involved in them and draws more unnecessary attention to them, often not for the general betterment of all.

I suppose the answer to this is so obvious as to make it a non-question, but why is it that the Wikipedia drama-mongers, drama-whores, etc are all, to some significant degree, bent, damaged, or broken people? I mean, they can't go to college because of some unspecified health problem, or they edit in bizarre 36-hour stretches, they've been disbarred, they're philanderers or they fondle animals, or they're nationalist or religious zealots. It goes on and on.

I'll answer my own question: I suppose the bizarre, broken, damaged people drive the normal ones out, and any normal people who persist can be expected to keep a low profile, out of natural reticence and also self-preservation. But still. It's so much worse than one would expect.

What? You're looking at a few high-profile examples out of maybe 50,000[*] accounts? How is this a valid conclusion to draw? Wouldn't the people who come to your attention on this site almost necessarily be the atypical and crazier of the bunch? I would certainly think so.

[*] Special:Statistics says 150,000-ish active users, but I'm willing to knock off 100,000.
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thekohser
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 12:17am
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 1:22pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 12:59pm) *

Durova, now might be a good time to finally disclose -- why exactly was Episode 45 of Wikivoices suppressed by Adam Cuerden?

You'd be better off getting that from the horse's mouth, Greg. What I had done my best to ensure was to match up the episode to one dedicated editor. WikiVoices had two audio editors who were really on the ball: Privatemusings and Filll. When either of them made a commitment the episode got done, pronto. But Filll moved on to other things and Privatemusings isn't around very much anymore. We've got several other people who have the skills but don't always prioritize, and they got into the habit of "sharing" editing work. Which tends to slow things down even more. X says "Y has it" or "Y's doing that part". A day and a half later Y comes on and responds "I said I'd take a look at it but I didn't make any promises." Then wait for X to log on again...

I've often thought about learning the software and picking up audio editing too. Haven't done so because of the worry that extra recordings would happen without a commitment from me, and the editing would end up in my lap.

We really do need another good dependable editor.


Once again, you minimize and you deflect. We had two people perfectly willing and able to edit the audio file, if only it had been released. Instead, it was deliberately withheld. And you continued to welcome that sniveling critter within your ranks, enamored with his Gilbert & Sullivan bullcrap that nobody cares about in this century.

To continue the Habitat for Humanity comparison, imagine a crew of 15 unskilled and skilled volunteer builders arrives at a construction site. Adam Cuerden pulls up in the pick-up truck with all the tools, locked in the tool bin in the back. As he gets out of the truck, he feels like he has a severe headache and he just knows that today he will not be able to do any productive building. So, he drives home, telling the 15 other workers that he'll try to come back another day, but it might be a few days. A week later, someone politely asks if he feels ready to come to the site again. He says, "No, my headaches are too awful", but then people notice he's painting his house, and he's finishing his neighbor's basement, so they point this out. He becomes offended. Then someone says, "Look, if you can't bring yourself to drive the truck to the site, I'll be happy to do it, or Ross over here would also be willing to give it a shot." Cuerden cries back, "No, no, no! One or two of the workers asked me that I not bring the truck -- ever -- to this construction site, because they're afraid that they'll hammer the nails backwards and look silly. So, this house is never going to get built."

Then you invite this critter to drive the truck to another home site.

It's downright sinister how you've reframed the whole story, Durova. And you know it. And it tickles your little witchy feet in your wicked witchy shoes to click them together and cackle, knowing full well that you're minimizing and deflecting, once again.
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GlassBeadGame
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 12:27am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 7:17pm) *


It's downright sinister how you've reframed the whole story, Durova.


One might even say monstrous.
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 2:11am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 22nd November 2009, 12:17am) *

Once again, you minimize and you deflect. We had two people perfectly willing and able to edit the audio file, if only it had been released. Instead, it was deliberately withheld. And you continued to welcome that sniveling critter within your ranks, enamored with his Gilbert & Sullivan bullcrap that nobody cares about in this century.

To continue the Habitat for Humanity comparison, imagine a crew of 15 unskilled and skilled volunteer builders arrives at a construction site. Adam Cuerden pulls up in the pick-up truck with all the tools, locked in the tool bin in the back. As he gets out of the truck, he feels like he has a severe headache and he just knows that today he will not be able to do any productive building. So, he drives home, telling the 15 other workers that he'll try to come back another day, but it might be a few days. A week later, someone politely asks if he feels ready to come to the site again. He says, "No, my headaches are too awful", but then people notice he's painting his house, and he's finishing his neighbor's basement, so they point this out. He becomes offended. Then someone says, "Look, if you can't bring yourself to drive the truck to the site, I'll be happy to do it, or Ross over here would also be willing to give it a shot." Cuerden cries back, "No, no, no! One or two of the workers asked me that I not bring the truck -- ever -- to this construction site, because they're afraid that they'll hammer the nails backwards and look silly. So, this house is never going to get built."

Then you invite this critter to drive the truck to another home site.

It's downright sinister how you've reframed the whole story, Durova. And you know it. And it tickles your little witchy feet in your wicked witchy shoes to click them together and cackle, knowing full well that you're minimizing and deflecting, once again.


The structure of WikiVoices is less top-down than that analogy implies. He wasn't the original audio editor. I had very strongly advised the original editor against attempting to share the responsibility with anybody else. To the point of saying if that were going to happen then I wouldn't host. But of course after the recording was made I couldn't prevent people from trying it anyway. Believe me, a couple of people got reamed out in private over that.

The horse has had a nice horse funeral and doesn't need another beating.

During the aftermath of this some people have wondered why you pushed the issue so hard and so long, Greg. Yes, you did make a positive impression during the recording. I could understand why you'd want that published. But the manner in which you've followed up has more than undone that good impression. Somebody (not from WikiVoices) linked me to this thread a moment ago and said your post is the kind of thing that makes them lose interest in helping you get unblocked.

This post has been edited by Wiki Witch of the West: Sun 22nd November 2009, 2:15am
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thekohser
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 2:46am
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 9:11pm) *

...your post is the kind of thing that makes them lose interest in helping you get unblocked.

Ah, yes. It's all my fault, once again. I suppose I've got nothing left to live for now, except maybe to give misleading information to journalists that will be published in the mainstream press.
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Jon Awbrey
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 2:52am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 9:46pm) *

QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 9:11pm) *

…your post is the kind of thing that makes them lose interest in helping you get unblocked.


Ah, yes. It's all my fault, once again. I suppose I've got nothing left to live for now, except maybe to give misleading information to journalists that will be published in the mainstream press.


Good grief, Man, you just got through lecturing PD about wasting his time.

Put her on your ignore list and get on with your life.

Wikipediots ain't good for nuttin if they aint good for comedy, and this one has become too big a bore to even be funny anymore.

Jon tongue.gif
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Milton Roe
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 3:14am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Sat 21st November 2009, 7:52pm) *

Good grief, Man, you just got through lecturing PD about wasting his time.

Greg lectures me about being terrible sock-finder, too.

BTW, I don't see ol' Happy Drinker around much these days... rolleyes.gif
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thekohser
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 4:03am
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Jon's right. I really have to finish my e-book!

But, this is just so darn funny, too.

P.S. Oh dear.

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Jon Awbrey
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 4:28am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sat 21st November 2009, 11:03pm) *

Jon's right. I really have to finish my e-book!

But, this is just so darn funny, too.

P.S. Oh dear.


Sometimes a typo is just a typo …

Cuerden creates the sock puppet Vainished User

Not this time …

Jon tongue.gif
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 4:48am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Sun 22nd November 2009, 2:52am) *

Good grief, Man, you just got through lecturing PD about wasting his time.

Put her on your ignore list and get on with your life.

Wikipediots ain't good for nuttin if they aint good for comedy, and this one has become too big a bore to even be funny anymore.

Jon tongue.gif

Great advice, Jon. Let's see if either of you take it. rolleyes.gif

Buzzin' back to Ye Olde Hive to work on content.


And y'know, throughout this thread I grit my teeth in anticipation of Now she's talking about me on Wikipedia Review!

Can't please everyone.
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Somey
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 5:17am
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QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 10:48pm) *
Can't please everyone.

Yeah, but how many times can you cheat, dissemble, cover-up, smear, or grossly exaggerate, followed by consistently saying the problem really lies with the people who point these things out and the "manner" in which they do so, before they won't let you do it again?

On Wikipedia I assume they'll let you keep it up indefinitely, but here we have so-called "standards"...
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Wiki Witch of the West
post Sun 22nd November 2009, 5:58am
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From: Honey catches more flies than vinegar, but I still don't want to see your fly.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 22nd November 2009, 5:17am) *

QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 21st November 2009, 10:48pm) *
Can't please everyone.

Yeah, but how many times can you cheat, dissemble, cover-up, smear, or grossly exaggerate, followed by consistently saying the problem really lies with the people who point these things out and the "manner" in which they do so, before they won't let you do it again?

On Wikipedia I assume they'll let you keep it up indefinitely, but here we have so-called "standards"...

You'd be the expert on that. wink.gif

More seriously, I made a public apology to Greg at the Foundation list months ago. If he doesn't want to accept it that's up to him. We goofed up that episode at WikiVoices, no doubt about it. I won't don a hairshirt forever about it, and that doesn't mean his conduct is perfect.

Really, one of the things I was telling the audio editors when I was trying to get this episode done was that I really didn't want to antagonize Greg especially. He's intelligent and charming, but we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. He tends to be less charming when he isn't getting what he wants.
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