User:Filll Obama "birther" ringleader Options Rating

[Kato]

As noted on another thread, Filll (T-C-L-K-R-D) , who was a primary voice on the WikiVoices (formerly Not The Wikipedia Weekly) radio show, a regular Defender of The Wiki, and someone quick to attack Wikipedia Review whenever he could, is a leading light in the Obama "Birther" conspiracy theory. He came to this site's attention during his bitter battles on WP with Moulton last year.

Filll, using his real name Robert Stevens, is all over the internet trotting the old line that Obama's birth certificate is faked, blah blah blah.

Here Filll has a blog on the matter, where he discusses the WP article on Birther "Queen" Orly Taitz (T-H-L-K-D) and makes all kinds of weird claims in the comment section. Filll was an early editor of the WP bio creating a version in user space. A now deleted YouTube video from some unknown adversary claims that Filll manages the blog for Orly Taitz, the woman pushing these baseless Obama theories in public.

Filll previously went through a right wing phase of blogging against crazy Muslim strawmen arguments of his own creation. Later, after his WP dispute with Moulton, Filll wrote that he was afraid of "getting killed" and wrote a long preposterous essay about Wikipedia Review (which now seems to have disappeared).*

*Update: Found it.
User:Filll/Wikipedia Review reviewed - and here's WR's response.

[dtobias]

Weird... I thought his big thing on WP was to stringently oppose "fringe theories" (e.g., Intelligent Design) and the people who try to "push" them?

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[One]

Once an anti-fringe crusader, now a fringe-pusher? Are we sure this is the same guy?

[GlassBeadGame]

Once an anti-fringe crusader, now a fringe-pusher? Are we sure this is the same guy?

Don't ArbCom members has CheckUser abilities or at least other with same at their beakon call? You tell us.

Please, no nerd crap about "beck and call."

[Kato]

Once an anti-fringe crusader, now a fringe-pusher? Are we sure this is the same guy?

Here's Filll working on the Orly Taitz article in his user space. He made a bunch of edits on January 16th, a day after this mysterious user Huckit (T-C-L-K-R-D) created the biography.

Whoever it is that really has it in for Filll has created a kind of video timeline.

http://www.dipity.com/timeline/Orly-Taitz-Wikipedia

Presumably it is the same guy who has created this blog about Filll, which is a real mess and hard to follow.

http://filll-fan-club.blogspot.com/

[Milton Roe]

Once an anti-fringe crusader, now a fringe-pusher? Are we sure this is the same guy?

I think not. Our WP user:Filll is the semi-nerdly French-Canadian biology teacher (naturally liberal) with the facebook pic (looks to be in his early 30's) and want of girlfriends, in Bowie? Maryland (I need to look at the Filll thread again-- hey how come no Filll thread in the notable editor forum?). The Bob Stevens dude of the fringe ideas is probably the right-wing M.D. who seems a generation older.

They might have the same name and even live in the same state, but it's a common name and there must be lot of them around there.

[Kato]

Once an anti-fringe crusader, now a fringe-pusher? Are we sure this is the same guy?

I think not. Our WP user:Filll is the semi-nerdly French-Canadian biology teacher (naturally liberal) with the facebook pic (looks to be in his early 30's) and want of girlfriends, in Bowie? Maryland (I need to look at the Filll thread again-- hey how come no Filll thread in the notable editor forum?). The Bob Stevens dude of the fringe ideas is probably the right-wing M.D. who seems a generation older.

They might have the same name and even live in the same state, but it's a common name and there must be lot of them around there.

Milton please. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

Then why does Bob Stevens (who we know is Filll) write a blog post about editing the Wikipedia article on Orly Taitz and keeping it from deletion, the same day User:Filll edits the bio and keeps it from deletion?

I don't spend time peppering original posts with links for fun, you know. Nor do I pull these kinds of things out of my ass (unlike certain people here). (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Moulton]

Filll, as Kato noted above, has been active on Skype for many years.

He landed on a right-wing Skypecast that called itself "Skype Assholes" (they even have a web site promoting their show, which runs 24/7). It was there that "Appliantologist" ran into Filll Bob Stevens (Bob.in.MD) and contacted me. Since then, "Appliantologist" has recorded some of the racist rants on the Skypecast, including those of Filll, which he then posted on YouTube, with links thereto from a blog called Filll-Fan-Club.

I have no idea how or why Filll descended from his IDCab role on the English Wikipedia into the openly racist character he has become today, but there is no doubt that it's the same person. His voice is quite recognizable on the Skypcasts, and his Skype ID is well known from his previous appearances on NotTheWikipediaWeekly.

It's all rather bizarre, and begging for analysis.

Note, also, that Filll was a disciple of FeloniousMonk and lamented the decision of ArbCom to act against FM.

Incidentally, Appliantologist compiled a fair amount of additional research to confirm that Filll is Robert Evan Stevens, a one-time climate modeler who lived and worked in Bowie MD.

[Kato]

I have no idea how or why Filll descended from his IDCab role on the English Wikipedia into the openly racist character he has become today, but there is no doubt that it's the same person.

I listened to one of the Skypecasts, where Filll was "in character" as an obnoxious right wing talk show host. And it is the same voice as the Filll who was a regular on NotTheWikipediaWeekly.

All of this, the racist diatribes, the anti-Obama thing, is certainly the same guy as Filll on WP. Last year, when his crazy anti-Muslim rants were exposed, it dawned on me that this guy is either a bona-fide crack-pot, or descending into one very rapidly, and figured it best not to comment further.

This new development, where Filll is providing back-up for the Obama birther movement is just too weird to keep quiet about.

[Moulton]

When Appliantologist first contacted me, after hearing Filll taking my name in vain on the Skype Assholes audiocast, I was skeptical it was the same person.

While I was talking to Appliantologist (on the phone), he patched me into the Skypecast, where Filll was holding forth. After I continued to express skepticsim, Filll proved to me his identity by recalling obscure details of our previous encounters that no one else would have known.

And, like Kato, I was able to confirm his nasal voice and style of speech was indeed that of Filll from the old WP Skypecasts.

Orly Taitz mentions Bob Stevens by name as her web site manager in a Birther's Movement press conference that Appliantologist reposted on YouTube.

So I have no doubt it's our own Filll Bob Stevens, who seems to have gone off the deep end since my first encounter with him two years ago.

[Kato]

So I have no doubt it's our own Filll Bob Stevens, who seems to have gone off the deep end since my first encounter with him two years ago.

You can see a change in Filll here: In the first of Filll's ill judged AGF Challenges, Filll constructs hypothetical cases which he believes challenge Wikipedia's "commitment" to assuming good faith in the face of FRINGE THEORIES. These exercises are silly but fairly random in scope, meaning that the exercise retains some credibility .

Filll wrote a follow-up; AGF Challenge 2. This time round, thinly-veiled anti-Muslim sentiment had crept into the questions, and a couple of them referred to real life cases that had got him hot under the collar at Wikipedia. This made Filll look obsessive and a poor judge of just about anything, let alone complicated FRINGE THEORIES.

A year on, it is shown that Filll is so bad at judging these things, he fell for the Obama Birther nonsense!

Case dismissed.

[TungstenCarbide]

Filll, using his real name Bob Stevens, is all over the internet trotting the old line that Obama's birth certificate is faked, blah blah blah.

That's a brilliant strategy by the way; demanding that Obama prove his innocence without really presenting evidence of guilt. If Obama concedes and makes his documentation public then that will open the door to an endless stream of fat maggots demanding ever more proof of innocence for imagined crimes. If he doesn't, they can just spend the foreseeable future spreading dissent, twisting his inaction as proof of guilt.

[Moulton]

Filll, using his real name Bob Stevens, is all over the internet trotting the old line that Obama's birth certificate is faked, blah blah blah.

That's a brilliant strategy by the way; demanding that Obama prove his innocence without really presenting evidence of guilt. If Obama concedes and makes his documentation public then that will open the door to an endless stream of fat maggots demanding ever more proof of innocence for imagined crimes. If he doesn't, they can just spend the foreseeable future spreading dissent, twisting his inaction as proof of guilt.

Actually, it doesn't work that way. The State of Hawaii is the custodian of record when it comes to establishing the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. Hawaiian officials all the way up to the Governor of the state have attested that his birth certificate is authentic. Moreover, there were announcement of his birth in the newspapers as well. There is no way they could have been faked.

[Kato]

Filll, using his real name Bob Stevens, is all over the internet trotting the old line that Obama's birth certificate is faked, blah blah blah.

That's a brilliant strategy by the way; demanding that Obama prove his innocence without really presenting evidence of guilt. If Obama concedes and makes his documentation public then that will open the door to an endless stream of fat maggots demanding ever more proof of innocence for imagined crimes. If he doesn't, they can just spend the foreseeable future spreading dissent, twisting his inaction as proof of guilt.

Actually, it doesn't work that way. The State of Hawaii is the custodian of record when it comes to establishing the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. Hawaiian officials all the way up to the Governor of the state have attested that his birth certificate is authentic. Moreover, there were announcement of his birth in the newspapers as well. There is no way they could have been faked.

Orly Taitz, Filll's new mentor, produced a faked Kenyan birth certificate suggesting that Obama was really born in Mombasa, Kenya. Unfortunately, this birth cert stated it was issued by the Republic of Kenya. Which is unusual given that Kenya was known as the Dominion of Kenya at the time the document was supposedly issued, and no such surrounding genuine documents would use that title.

[TungstenCarbide]

Filll, using his real name Bob Stevens, is all over the internet trotting the old line that Obama's birth certificate is faked, blah blah blah.

That's a brilliant strategy by the way; demanding that Obama prove his innocence without really presenting evidence of guilt. If Obama concedes and makes his documentation public then that will open the door to an endless stream of fat maggots demanding ever more proof of innocence for imagined crimes. If he doesn't, they can just spend the foreseeable future spreading dissent, twisting his inaction as proof of guilt.

Actually, it doesn't work that way. The State of Hawaii is the custodian of record when it comes to establishing the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. Hawaiian officials all the way up to the Governor of the state have attested that his birth certificate is authentic. Moreover, there were announcement of his birth in the newspapers as well. There is no way they could have been faked.

Ya, but the endless supply of nuts have this constant refrain; "Why doesn't he just make his full birth certificate public, what does he have to hide". This is repeated over and over again (they generally leave out the part about Hawaii's governor). It's a brilliant smear job.

Orly Taitz, Filll's new mentor, produced a faked Kenyan birth certificate suggesting that Obama was really born in Mombasa, Kenya. Unfortunately, this birth cert stated it was issued by the Republic of Kenya. Which is unusual given that Kenya was known as the Dominion of Kenya at the time the document was supposedly issued, and no such surrounding genuine documents would use that title.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide:

[Kato]

Ya, but the endless supply of nuts have this constant refrain; "Why doesn't he just make his full birth certificate public, what does he have to hide". This is repeated over and over again (they generally leave out the part about Hawaii's governor). It's a brilliant smear job.

It is public and has been online for over a year.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

[dtobias]

Orly Taitz, Filll's new mentor, produced a faked Kenyan birth certificate suggesting that Obama was really born in Mombasa, Kenya. Unfortunately, this birth cert stated it was issued by the Republic of Kenya. Which is unusual given that Kenya was known as the Dominion of Kenya at the time the document was supposedly issued, and no such surrounding genuine documents would use that title.

Not to mention that somebody else found an Australian birth certificate from the same time period that was online in a genealogy site which exactly matched the alleged Kenyan one, complete with the document numbers in the corner, making it clear that the faker had used that as the starting point. Web archives show that this version was online long before the alleged Obama one (but conspiracy theorists will claim that's faked too).

[TungstenCarbide]

Ya, but the endless supply of nuts have this constant refrain; "Why doesn't he just make his full birth certificate public, what does he have to hide". This is repeated over and over again (they generally leave out the part about Hawaii's governor). It's a brilliant smear job.

It is public and has been online for over a year.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

apparently there's a 'long form' version that has not been made public, or so the nut jobs say.

Here you go, Kato. You'll get a kick out of this guy.

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide:

[Moulton]

Irony upon irony.

The whole ID brouhaha emerged from a statement (originally signed almost a decade ago by some 100 scientists and academics) urging that people adhere to the protocols of the scientific method when examining and evaluating theories. The basic method of science is to try like the dickens to disprove any hypothesis before accepting it as a serious contender in the search for scientific truth.

Here is a case where disproof is laughably trivial, rendering the contentions of the birthers untenable by any reasonable standard of evidentiary proof.

This is the same error IDCab made when it adopted the untenable thesis that those same 100 scientists and academics were supporters of Intelligent Design. Not only was there no evidence to support that ludicrous claim, there was copious evidence to disprove it. And yet IDCab muscled that troublesome falsehood into dozens of articles and BLPs.

Filll and his ilk seem to be hell bent on enmeshing themselves in lunatic political drama, in contravention of the most basic tenets of scientific inquiry.

[Kato]

Most of these guys get shown up in the end. JzG, Gary Weiss, Filll, JoshuaZ, Jossi, Chip Berlet etc.

What's interesting is how many people at WP look at their cases early on, and don't conclude that these people are tripping out-of-their minds and clearly in the wrong. Regardless of the often misplaced tactics of their adversaries here, the offenders get away with it for months and sometimes years under the protection of Wikipedia clans. And it can be a concerted effort to get others to see rational sense and stop protecting these loons and their bad behaviour.

To be fair, justice isn't helped by the quantity of utter morons that roll up at this site at a regular rate. Bad, self-indulgent critics here devalue genuine criticisms and limit the occasions when we can identify abuse with credible evidence. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

[One]

Ya, but the endless supply of nuts have this constant refrain; "Why doesn't he just make his full birth certificate public, what does he have to hide". This is repeated over and over again (they generally leave out the part about Hawaii's governor). It's a brilliant smear job.

It is public and has been online for over a year.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Yeah, I think the line is that it isn't an original birth certificate, but rather a duplicate.

Sucks to be me--I've also lost my original birth certificate. My duplicate birth certificate is good enough for a US passport, but the truthers might claim I was really born in Canada. Therefore, I have reluctantly decided, and do now announce, that I will not be running for the Office of President in 2016.*

*Actually, my mother was old enough to bestow birthright citizenship (not that anyone cares). The law that birthers cite against Obama was amended--nowadays a child born in Kenya under those alleged circumstances would still be a U.S. citizen by birth.

This post has been edited by One:

[Kelly Martin]

The document that the birthers are demanding Obama to release is the Certificate of Live Birth, which is not the same thing as a birth certificate.

A Certificate of Live Birth is a document completed (or at least signed and sworn) by the physician in attendance at a live birth as to the particulars of that birth. This document becomes a part of the physician's records (or, more typically the hospital's), and copies are filed with the county and the state. A copy of this document is not normally provided to the parents or the child, and most people would not have a copy of their certificate of live birth (or even know that the document exists).

The copies of a Certificate of Live Birth filed with the county and the state are not available for public inspection, and the copy filed with the state is the final legal proof of a person's birth. In most states, the only people who may inspect these certificates, absent a court order (and such orders are rarely ever granted), are the immediate relatives of the named party, certain public health officials, and officials of the state or county archives. Furthermore, these certificates may not be copied or removed from the archives, except by officials of the archives for the express purpose of data preservation (and for no other purpose). If someone somehow ends up with a copy of a certificate of live birth outside the archives, that certificate is not valid for any legal purpose and is presumptively fraudulent.

A birth certificate, on the other hand, is a document issued by a government agency (typically a county) attesting to the fact that it has upon its files a Certificate of Live Birth that indicates that the person named therein was born at the place and time specified of the parents specified in the certificate. Such a certificate (all certificates are "original" if they bear the seal of the appropriate agency, regardless of date of issue) is sufficient proof of birth for just about any legal purpose; the only exception would be in a proceeding in which the specific details of the birth have been challenged, and the burden of proof in such a challenge is typically very high.

The birthers are demanding the Certificate of Live Birth because they know it (a) exists and (b) cannot be produced. Makes for good political theatre.

[CharlotteWebb]

Orly Taitz, Filll's new mentor, produced a faked Kenyan birth certificate suggesting that Obama was really born in Mombasa, Kenya.

Orly?

I think most people have their minds made up about Obama more or less. I'm not sure how where he may or may not have been born would change any of that. Even if he was for-sure born outside the U.S., impeachment on that basis would be extremely petty.

Take McCain for example, whom certain conspiracy theorists believe was probably born 1936 in Colón (República de Panamá) on the basis that the naval hospital at Coco Solo wasn't established until 1941 (or maybe this document is also a fake). Ignoring the exact location, he still wouldn't have been a natural-born citizen at the time of his birth (as the supreme court held in Downes v. Bidwell, 1901 that unincorporated territories such as the canal zone are not really part of the U.S.), only retroactively declared one by title 8 section 1403 (1937).

Most of us common-folk (whose only familiarity with Mombasa stems from a Warren Zevon tune) could give a shit less about this rule-literalism codswallop (from which Wikipedia does also generally suffer), and I don't think anyone could with a straight face argue that article II could ever have been intended do disqualify either of these guys as a potential candidate.

[Cla68]

The birthers are demanding the Certificate of Live Birth because they know it (a) exists and (b) cannot be produced. Makes for good political theatre.

The people who dislike Obama (which apparently includes this Filll weirdo) should drop this nonsense.

This post has been edited by Cla68:

[One]

Take McCain for example, whom certain conspiracy theorists believe was probably born 1936 in Colón (República de Panamá) on the basis that the naval hospital at Coco Solo wasn't established until 1941 (or maybe this document is also a fake). Ignoring the exact location, he still wouldn't have been a natural-born citizen at the time of his birth (as the supreme court held in Downes v. Bidwell, 1901 that unincorporated territories such as the canal zone are not really part of the U.S.), only retroactively declared one by title 8 section 1403 (1937).

No, it probably still counts. Both of McCain's parents were citizens, so it doesn't matter where he was born; he would be a citizen at birth (although it's unknown whether this would make him a constitutional "natural born citizen"). See 8 USC 1401( c), which predates McCain's birth, as explained by the N.D. Cal, in an earlier Alan Keyes birther conspiracy suit against McCain.

The birther argument here is that because only Obama's mother was a citizen, she was not then old enough to impart citizenship to Obama if he was born overseas. At the time, 1401 required:

"(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years..."

Because Obama's mother was only 18, there's no way this condition could have obtained. If he was born in Kenya, he would not have been a citizen, period. Therefore, Obama would only be a citizen by birth if he was born in the U.S. (Note that 1401 was amended in 1986, to read "...totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years," so now a 16 year-old mother could impart U.S. citizenship at birth.)

This post has been edited by One:

[Kelly Martin]

No, it probably still counts. Both of McCain's parents were citizens, so it doesn't matter where he was born; he would be a citizen at birth (although it's unknown whether this would make him a constitutional "natural born citizen"). See 8 USC 1401( c), which predates McCain's birth, as explained by the N.D. Cal, in an earlier Alan Keyes birther conspiracy suit against McCain.

Don't forget Chet Arthur, whose father was either Irish or Canadian (the record, even then, was unclear, and is no clearer today) and who may or may not have been born in the territory of the United States. The contemporary case for doubting Arthur's legitimacy was almost certainly stronger than the case for doubting Obama's, and yet Arthur was not only sworn in (first as Vice President and then as President, on Garfield's death), but actually ranks now as one of America's better presidents; his major legacy is and remains the civil service system (which Bush 43 tried to, but was only partially successful at, demolishing).

Orly Taitz is just the latest reincarnation of Arthur Hinman. This too will pass.

[CharlotteWebb]

No, it probably still counts. Both of McCain's parents were citizens, so it doesn't matter where he was born; he would be a citizen at birth (although it's unknown whether this would make him a constitutional "natural born citizen"). See 8 USC 1401( c), which predates McCain's birth, as explained by the N.D. Cal, in an earlier Alan Keyes birther conspiracy suit against McCain.

The birther argument here is that because only Obama's mother was a citizen, she was not then old enough to impart citizenship to Obama if he was born overseas. At the time, 1401 required:

"(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years..."

Because Obama's mother was only 18, there's no way this condition could have obtained. If he was born in Kenya, he would not have been a citizen, period. Therefore, Obama would only be a citizen by birth if he was born in the U.S. (Note that 1401 was amended in 1986, to read "...totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years," so now a 16 year-old mother could impart U.S. citizenship at birth.)

Thank you for further proving my point about the sheer ridiculousness of the rules in question, presumably adopted to filter out false-flag candidates, Manchurians if you will, but there's no way you can codify that. Besides if the general public wants to elect a president whom they feel will hasten the overthrow of the U.S. gov't they should have every constitutional right to due so, whether the candidate is a (middle-aged) "natural born citizen" or not.

Orly Taitz is just the latest reincarnation of Arthur Hinman. This too will pass.

Surely not the Aussie-rules footballer?

Hmm the disambiguation page wasn't there an hour ago. NE2 is obviously reading this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=...99728&diff=prev

[One]

Thank you for further proving my point about the sheer ridiculousness of the rules in question, presumably adopted to filter out false-flag candidates, Manchurians if you will, but there's no way you can codify that. Besides if the general public wants to elect a president whom they feel will hasten the overthrow of the U.S. gov't they should have every constitutional right to due so, whether the candidate is a (middle-aged) "natural born citizen" or not.

Most birthers seem to be the "U.S. Constitution was an inspired document" sort (I say this affectionately; I have a birther relative). I think you've just committed some form of heresy according to this worldview.

[Somey]

I have no idea how or why Filll descended from his IDCab role on the English Wikipedia into the openly racist character he has become today, but there is no doubt that it's the same person. His voice is quite recognizable on the Skypcasts, and his Skype ID is well known from his previous appearances on NotTheWikipediaWeekly.

It's all rather bizarre, and begging for analysis...

Irony upon irony. ... Filll and his ilk seem to be hell bent on enmeshing themselves in lunatic political drama, in contravention of the most basic tenets of scientific inquiry.

Just in case anyone is still puzzling over this, I'm going to risk the ire of the Evolutionary Science supporters here (of which I am one myself) to say that this shouldn't be surprising at all. Darwinism has been misused as a phony "scientific proof" of racist ideologies for years, almost since The Ascent of Man was first published. In Wikiland, and even once or twice on this board, we've seen racists and racially-motivated folks cherry-pick quotes from Darwin to support their so-called "views."

Intelligent Design is completely wrong, and may even be semi-moronic in its basic scientific approach - but the fact is, it's a fundamentally non-racist concept. Even the most committed wingnut would never argue publicly that God created white people to be better than black people or any other group - that would be tantamount to throwing what may be their best political support-argument right into the toilet.

Unfortunately for other "IDCab" folks like FeloniousMonk, Raul654, and JoshuaZ, the flawed wiki-based system they've been operating under doesn't allow them to "vet" their allies and comrades in advance of an edit war or a campaign against petition-signers, in the hopes of determining their true motivations. If you're a Wikipedian, you basically get in bed with whoever shows up for the orgy, and if one of them happens to have a social disease, too bad.

[CharlotteWebb]

Most birthers seem to be the "U.S. Constitution was an inspired document" sort (I say this affectionately; I have a birther relative). I think you've just committed some form of heresy according to this worldview.

The bill of rights, at least, is suitable for framing, however the constitution's lesser known passages are plagued by logorrhoeic instruction creep which the average true-believer wouldn't recognize printed on a freeway billboard in 9000pt black-letter, much less consciously adhere to.

From this perspective one may infer eerie parallels to the "ten commandments" and the remainder of the hebrew torah, which a similarly popular excess also consider to be an "inspired document".

One could further compare mythologies by superimposing Mt. Vernon with Mt. Sinai, the cherry tree with the burning bush, the delaware river with the red sea, the tea party with the plague of blood.

Let my people go! Well certainly there are some glaring inconsistencies upon which I dare not touch but somewhere in the course of human events one could write an entire screenplay based on such juxtapositioning of premise, sorta like what they did (brilliantly) with Titus Andronicus. I mean that's what new-world nationalism is all about, right?




Disclaimer: most of this is intended as absurd satire, and I failed to address the pyramid issue.

This post has been edited by CharlotteWebb:

[Eva Destruction]

Even the most committed wingnut would never argue publicly that God created white people to be better than black people or any other group - that would be tantamount to throwing what may be their best political support-argument right into the toilet.

Somey, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've heard exactly that line from assorted religious cranks dozens of time (generally citing a garbled reading of Genesis 9:20-27 as "proof"). Wikipedia's Hamitic article is surprisingly good, given the potential crank-bait of the subject matter.

[Somey]

Even the most committed wingnut would never argue publicly that God created white people to be better than black people or any other group - that would be tantamount to throwing what may be their best political support-argument right into the toilet.

Somey, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've heard exactly that line from assorted religious cranks dozens of time (generally citing a garbled reading of Genesis 9:20-27 as "proof"). Wikipedia's Hamitic article is surprisingly good, given the potential crank-bait of the subject matter.

Sorry, you're right - I posted that too quickly. I should have said something like, "In the politically-correct world we live in today, even the most committed wingnut would never use the basic premises of Intelligent Design to argue publicly that God created white people to be better," etc.

Actually I'll admit there are probably a few wingnuts who would do even that, but I doubt they exist in large enough numbers to be a genuine factor, even on Wikipedia.

[LaraLove]

I have no idea how or why Filll descended from his IDCab role on the English Wikipedia into the openly racist character he has become today, but there is no doubt that it's the same person.

It's great to know that Filll, the dipshit who kept baiting me with his little "ID cabal" friends after the white pride bullshit last year, is a racist.

The birthers are demanding the Certificate of Live Birth because they know it (a) exists and (b) cannot be produced. Makes for good political theatre.

The people who dislike Obama (which apparently includes this Filll weirdo) should drop this nonsense.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Filll lives for this sort of stuff. He is alll about the drama and will keep it going for as long as possible.

[Somey]

It's great to know that Filll, the dipshit who kept baiting me with his little "ID cabal" friends after the white pride bullshit last year, is a racist.

They must have felt you were being too "unscientific"! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif)

Sorry, I just had to get that one in.

[CharlotteWebb]

Sorry, you're right - I posted that too quickly. I should have said something like, "In the politically-correct world we live in today, even the most committed wingnut would never use the basic premises of Intelligent Design to argue publicly that God created white people to be better," etc.

The south at least is still teeming with wingnuts and cone-head splinter groups, the most insidious of which are disguised as family-friendly sunday-morning broadcasts. While they do overtly ridicule evolutionary science (a.k.a. The Smart-Ass Folk Who Say We Come Descended From Monkeys)........ I don't recall a single one of them using the term "Intelligent Design" which I will confess never having heard prior to the internets.

[victim of censorship]

Even the most committed wingnut would never argue publicly that God created white people to be better than black people or any other group - that would be tantamount to throwing what may be their best political support-argument right into the toilet.

Somey, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've heard exactly that line from assorted religious cranks dozens of time (generally citing a garbled reading of Genesis 9:20-27 as "proof"). Wikipedia's Hamitic article is surprisingly good, given the potential crank-bait of the subject matter.

Some love and racial healing from the long time spiritual mentor of the POTUS.

[One]

From this perspective one may infer eerie parallels to the "ten commandments" and the remainder of the hebrew torah, which a similarly popular excess also consider to be an "inspired document".

That's an apt metaphor. Both are bread and butter to certain U.S. evangelicals.

I must disagree with you in part: I think the U.S. constitution was a pretty good document. It was well-considered, and most of the passages carry a lot of weight and subtlety. I just get annoyed when the "inspired document" fringe gets hung up on phrases like "coin money" or "titles and nobility," which they misunderstand, yet toss about with fundamentalist zeal.

[Somey]

...I think the U.S. constitution was a pretty good document. It was well-considered, and most of the passages carry a lot of weight and subtlety. I just get annoyed when the "inspired document" fringe gets hung up on phrases like "coin money" or "titles and nobility," which they misunderstand, yet toss about with fundamentalist zeal.

I think it was a good document too, but people have to remember that it was also a product of a completely different political, social, and (just to get back on the subject a bit) racial landscape. The whole ridiculous business about the Electoral College and the "3/5ths rule" was basically a concession to Southern slaveowners to get them to sign on - otherwise they probably wouldn't have, because they would have figured (perhaps correctly) that Northerners would quickly use their overall popular majority to end slavery, enfranchise the resulting freed black people, and thereby (arguably) ruin the Southern states economically.

We no longer have to deal with the 3/5ths rule, but the Electoral College is still screwing up our elections a full 240 years later.

It's just a good thing they allowed for amendments, that's all I can say!

[The Adversary]

Jeeez, I simply cannot believe that anyone with an IQ above 32 can believe this story. A white American girl travelling to Mombasa to give birth??! I was in Mombasa in the 1990´s -it was still a city with rows of leprosy-patients (missing fingers, arms, legs) sitting begging in the main street every day..... & where you never missed taking your malaria-profylactics. Never, never, never. And this should be a place an 18 year old American girl choose to have her first baby??

Besides the cost in the 1960s...one guy I knew well worked for the UN in Africa in that decade; well-payed job, but it was just -economically- impossible for his family (in Europe) to visit him; air-travel in the 1960s was extremely expensive compared with today. Basically, you only flew out there if somebody paid you. Or you were extremely rich. Which the Duhams/Obamas were not.

This is so utterly, totally absurd.

[Somey]

Jeeez, I simply cannot believe that anyone with an IQ above 32 can believe this story.... This is so utterly, totally absurd.

As I recall, the official "top limit" for wingnut IQ's here in the US is 20. Anything above that, and you're apparently able to think for yourself to some extent.