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_ 2008 Arbcom elections _ 2009 ArbCom elections
Posted by: Shalom
I was just fooling around, wondering if WP:ACE2009 is a blue link. It is, sort of.
What's more interesting is that the discussion page is a blue link. Already before the final votes are in, lessons are being learned for next year.
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:ACE2009
Posted by: Lifebaka
Seems to me the best way to solve the issues both raised simultaneously would be to use a secret ballot. Special:BoardVote could be easily brought back and modified to handle this, from what I've heard.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
What makes you think that there will be elections in 2009?
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(Lifebaka @ Tue 9th December 2008, 9:21pm) 
Seems to me the best way to solve the issues both raised simultaneously would be to use a secret ballot. Special:BoardVote could be easily brought back and modified to handle this, from what I've heard.
It's virtually certain that any change in voting system will change the result. I think this may be a good thing. Secret balloting, despite its various own issues, is probably the best option. Of course, this being Wikipedia, there isn't any chance of it happening unless Jimbo gives The Word.
There are good and bad aspects of people knowing the results mid-stream. It's probable that Vassyana has been hurt by people who support the candidates who were previously below him, hoping that by opposing Vassyana they can get one of their guys instead. If people voted for or against Vassyana without considering where he ranks compared to other candidates, he might do better. This is just one example of an unintended consequence of the open voting system. (Imagine what would have happened if the 2008 WMF Board Elections used open voting. Kohs would have been much happier.)
Posted by: SirFozzie
I don't like tactical voting. I've asked a couple people who supported me to reconsider some of their votes that they had indicated was tactical against other candidates (Not sure they were for ME mind you, just that they had voted against other candidates).
I think if that happens, mind you, we need to make sure that there's a place to discuss the candidate publicly. As much as I may have grumbled (loudly to some other people) about how certain votes seemed design to sow FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) about me, you really need to not squelch legitimate criticism and discussion of the candidate.
Posted by: Viridae
Well no, if i I couldnt see the ranking/votes as the election progressed I would have just opposed everyone that I wasn't supporting, not just those who had a hope of beating them.
Posted by: Lifebaka
QUOTE(Viridae @ Tue 9th December 2008, 11:57pm)
Well no, if i I couldnt see the ranking/votes as the election progressed I would have just opposed everyone that I wasn't supporting, not just those who had a hope of beating them.
The other part of a suggestion I've seen thrown around by a few people is to eliminate oppose voting. This would remove the ability to do easy tactical voting, and would make the elections much easier to track. At the same time, it'd be difficult to tell if a candidate is controversial simply by number of supports. A candidate who is well liked by many can also be hated by many, and our current system allows oppose votes to show this (assuming they're used correctly).
A further idea I've seen tossed around is to limit the number of votes each user gets to the number of seats to be filled. Seven, in this election. Whether with or without oppose voting, it certainly be an interesting one to try.
Posted by: Viridae
QUOTE(Lifebaka @ Wed 10th December 2008, 4:43pm)
QUOTE(Viridae @ Tue 9th December 2008, 11:57pm)
Well no, if i I couldnt see the ranking/votes as the election progressed I would have just opposed everyone that I wasn't supporting, not just those who had a hope of beating them.
The other part of a suggestion I've seen thrown around by a few people is to eliminate oppose voting. This would remove the ability to do easy tactical voting, and would make the elections much easier to track. At the same time, it'd be difficult to tell if a candidate is controversial simply by number of supports. A candidate who is well liked by many can also be hated by many, and our current system allows oppose votes to show this (assuming they're used correctly).
A further idea I've seen tossed around is to limit the number of votes each user gets to the number of seats to be filled. Seven, in this election. Whether with or without oppose voting, it certainly be an interesting one to try.
Most votes doesn't bode well for those without name recognition.
Posted by: Lifebaka
QUOTE(Viridae @ Wed 10th December 2008, 12:59am)
QUOTE(Lifebaka @ Wed 10th December 2008, 4:43pm)
The other part of a suggestion I've seen thrown around by a few people is to eliminate oppose voting. This would remove the ability to do easy tactical voting, and would make the elections much easier to track. At the same time, it'd be difficult to tell if a candidate is controversial simply by number of supports. A candidate who is well liked by many can also be hated by many, and our current system allows oppose votes to show this (assuming they're used correctly).
A further idea I've seen tossed around is to limit the number of votes each user gets to the number of seats to be filled. Seven, in this election. Whether with or without oppose voting, it certainly be an interesting one to try.
Most votes doesn't bode well for those without name recognition.
No system bodes well for those without name recognition, really. I do agree that a simple most votes system is probably not ideal, though.
Posted by: UserB
Maybe if we're really lucky, by 2009 we'll figure out we should just get rid of arbcom.
A randomly selected jury would get rid of (or severely reduce) most of the problems with arbcom (burnout, bias, being aloof)
Posted by: SirFozzie
while a good idea in theory, I see significant problems with it, in that 95% of WP's users... probably won't do jury duty.
Posted by: UserB
QUOTE(SirFozzie @ Wed 10th December 2008, 1:28am)
while a good idea in theory, I see significant problems with it, in that 95% of WP's users... probably won't do jury duty.
Even if you only have a pool of 200, that's like 1 case/year.
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(Lifebaka @ Wed 10th December 2008, 12:43am)
QUOTE(Viridae @ Tue 9th December 2008, 11:57pm)
Well no, if i I couldnt see the ranking/votes as the election progressed I would have just opposed everyone that I wasn't supporting, not just those who had a hope of beating them.
The other part of a suggestion I've seen thrown around by a few people is to eliminate oppose voting. This would remove the ability to do easy tactical voting, and would make the elections much easier to track. At the same time, it'd be difficult to tell if a candidate is controversial simply by number of supports. A candidate who is well liked by many can also be hated by many, and our current system allows oppose votes to show this (assuming they're used correctly).
A further idea I've seen tossed around is to limit the number of votes each user gets to the number of seats to be filled. Seven, in this election. Whether with or without oppose voting, it certainly be an interesting one to try.
I observed after the last election on wiki that different methods would produce different results. A "support-only" method would have given us a second term of Raul654. I voted for him last year. That's one of many edits I'd like to have back.
We would have also elected Giano, whom I opposed. That's another edit I'd like to have back.Ah, the wisdom of hindsight!
Posted by: Lifebaka
QUOTE(Shalom @ Wed 10th December 2008, 3:19pm)
I observed after the last election on wiki that different methods would produce different results. A "support-only" method would have given us a second term of Raul654. I voted for him last year. That's one of many edits I'd like to have back.
We would have also elected Giano, whom I opposed. That's another edit I'd like to have back.Ah, the wisdom of hindsight!
One of the more interesting suggestions is to use a preferential voting system such as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote instead of a support/oppose system. One of these systems was used in the last Board election (if I remember right) and it seemed to work there, so it should work for ArbCom elections. A preferential voting system would also help a lot to get candidates without as much name recognition to be able to "win".
Only downsides (which I have thought of) to these systems is that it's difficult without some sort of special page to do it on (or an outside website doing it) and it's difficult to do live tracking of the election due to the complexity of calculating the top picks.
Posted by: One
I need to think about preferential voting, but I think support-only would be a very bad thing. That system gives name recognizably too much weight. "Oppose" votes are a necessary check on name recognition--they allow voters to say "I do recognize this candidate, but I also recognize that I don't want them on ArbCom.
Posted by: Steve Crossin
QUOTE(One @ Thu 11th December 2008, 6:46am)
I need to think about preferential voting, but I think support-only would be a very bad thing. That system gives name recognizably too much weight. "Oppose" votes are a necessary check on name recognition--they allow voters to say "I do recognize this candidate, but I also recognize that I don't want them on ArbCom.
I think the idea of a secret ballot in general might be best. It prevents pile-ons and would allow people to vote without worrying if their vote will influence others (serving arbs, for example). As for preferential voting, I'm not so sure if its a great idea. I don't think many could support Kmweber, even in a preferential system. But then again....we had to in Board Elections...
Posted by: Kurt M. Weber
Should I run?
Posted by: CharlotteWebb
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 5:27pm)
Should I run?
Definitely.
Posted by: everyking
I suppose this is a good place to point out the recently started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee_2 on the ArbCom, dealing with term lengths, the size of the committee, and the way the forthcoming election should be conducted.
I'm in favor of one year terms, in line with my proposal from last year, in which I called for all the arbitrator seats to go up for election each year. However, two year terms appear to have broad majority support--apparently people think the arbitrators get better with experience, although I would suggest that they are about equally bad throughout their tenure, and the only difference is in their level of activity (longer terms producing greater lethargy). The big split is on the question of public vs. secret voting: currently there's 20 in favor of each. Personally, I think wiki-related matters should be conducted transparently in almost all cases, so I'm in favor of continuing with public voting.
Posted by: Kurt M. Weber
It still needs to go.
Not by means of formal abolition, because that would imply that the process that brought into existence was legitimate in the first place, but by the community simply ignoring it.
Posted by: Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 1:27pm)
Should I run?
No.
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
Posted by: everyking
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 10:35pm)
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 1:27pm)
Should I run?
No.
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
But that just means he'd fit right in with the rest of the ArbCom, right?
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 1:27pm)
Should I run?
No.
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
Don't listen to him, Kurt! After Arbcom's utter lack of transparency, honesty and due process in the Law/TU and Eastern European mailing list debacles, and in view of the failed "reforms" (BASC, anyone?), it is time to have some new leadership.
Posted by: Kurt M. Weber
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
Why, because I didn't echo the corrupt groupthink?
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 5:10pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
Why, because I didn't echo the corrupt groupthink?
Kurt, if your account hasn't been disabled, go back and run.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(Kurt M. Weber @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:04pm)
It still needs to go.
Not by means of formal abolition, because that would imply that the process that brought into existence was legitimate in the first place, but by the community simply ignoring it.
Not likely.
"Should I run?"
Q.E.D.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
It has yet to be demonstrated that it is possible to contribute to a governance discussion on Wikipedia in a manner that is actually helpful.Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
And in precisely what way has your presence on Arbcom improved that "encyclopedia", sir?
I'd like to see a list of your "major accomplishments", please.
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 31st October 2009, 7:37pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
And in precisely what way has your presence on Arbcom improved that "encyclopedia", sir?
I'd like to see a list of your "major accomplishments", please.
Hey, don't hate on Newyorkbrad. His article contributions are considerable, close to 100 as I recall, and he has acted as the primary author on some important ArbCom decisions. In the C68-FM-SV case, nobody seemed to know how to move forward until NYB came out of retirement and wrote a decision that everyone could agree with. (I would have written a slightly different decision, but I was of course biased and declared my opinion.) One of the problems with ArbCom, being a microcosm of Wikipedia's community, is a lack of leadership. Someone has to step up and do the unpleasant drudgery. Newyorkbrad has done that on enough occasions to earn my respect in the Wikipedia context. Having met him in person, I respect him in a real-world sense too -- and that's more important.
Posted by: everyking
QUOTE(Shalom @ Sun 1st November 2009, 1:46am)
Hey, don't hate on Newyorkbrad. His article contributions are considerable, close to 100 as I recall, and he has acted as the primary author on some important ArbCom decisions. In the C68-FM-SV case, nobody seemed to know how to move forward until NYB came out of retirement and wrote a decision that everyone could agree with. (I would have written a slightly different decision, but I was of course biased and declared my opinion.) One of the problems with ArbCom, being a microcosm of Wikipedia's community, is a lack of leadership. Someone has to step up and do the unpleasant drudgery. Newyorkbrad has done that on enough occasions to earn my respect in the Wikipedia context. Having met him in person, I respect him in a real-world sense too -- and that's more important.
Ah yes, such "unpleasant drudgery" as upholding outrageous allegations against hard-working volunteers. Of course people poke fun at Weber's views, but if I'm forced to choose between a candidate who supports abolishing the ArbCom and a candidate who supports branding me as a dangerous stalker and harasser until the end of time, who do you think I'm going to pick?
Posted by: Happy drinker
I really find the attacks on Brad impossible to fathom. He has been a model Wikipedian in every respect and was given an almost unanimous endorsement in the Arbcom elections. His superb performance on ArbCom has thoroughly justified that vote, has it not? We're lucky to have him.
Posted by: Mike H
You still haven't absorbed the "you're not talking to a room full of sycophantic Wikipedia fans" memo yet, have you?
Not that I think Newyorkbrad is bad, I think he's quite good; but I do wonder if Happy drinker just doesn't get it as far as his "warm Wiki" tone is concerned, or just doesn't give a shit.
There are things I like about Wikipedia but a fair bit I don't like about it. Happy drinker, you do realize the place isn't sunshine and rainbows, right? Get with the damn program.
Posted by: Moulton
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sat 31st October 2009, 7:25pm)
It has yet to be demonstrated that it is possible to contribute to a governance discussion on Wikipedia in a manner that is actually helpful.
There are some notable parallels between the intractable problem of corruption in Afghanistan governance and the comparable problem of pervasive and persistent corruption in WP governance.
There are just too many people who prefer to engage in corrupt practices rather than pursue the ethical stance.
Traditionally, throughout the annals of human history, the ethical actor in the polisphere has been dealt with harshly by the mindless mob.
Posted by: Doc glasgow
My fantasy arbcom:
1. Kelly Martin
2. Everyking
3. Durova
4. Geogre
5. Giano
6. Bishzilla
7. Fred Bauder
8. David Gerrard
9. PhilSandifer
chaired, of course by
10. Newyorkbrad
Can anyone think of a combination more able to case DRAMA and LOL?
Oh yes, naturally
11. Jimbo Wales
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sun 1st November 2009, 10:56am)
My fantasy arbcom:
1. Kelly Martin
2. Everyking
3. Durova
4. Geogre
5. Giano
6. Bishzilla
7. Fred Bauder
8. David Gerrard
9. PhilSandifer
chaired, of course by
10. Newyorkbrad
Can anyone think of a combination more able to case DRAMA and LOL?
Oh yes, naturally
11. Jimbo Wales
Why not yourself? I rather like the new, more deeply disaffected, Doc Glasgow.
Posted by: trenton
QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sun 1st November 2009, 10:56am)
Oh yes, naturally
11. Jimbo Wales
The Jimbeau will never agree to being number 11. He will demand to get a special flag as the sole, perpetual, 'zero'th member.
Posted by: Doc glasgow
QUOTE(trenton @ Sun 1st November 2009, 8:53pm)
QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sun 1st November 2009, 10:56am)
Oh yes, naturally
11. Jimbo Wales
The Jimbeau will never agree to being number 11. He will demand to get a special flag as the sole, perpetual, 'zero'th member.
Oh good - that will case moreDRAMA®
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Shalom @ Sat 31st October 2009, 7:46pm)
Hey, don't hate on Newyorkbrad. His article contributions are considerable, close to 100 as I recall, and he has acted as the primary author on some important ArbCom decisions.
In fairness, Brad was the only arbitrator in the Law/TU case who behaved in an intelligent manner -- he immediately recused himself without snide commentary, he immediately answered the question on whether he was aware of the Law/TU connection, and he made no open announcements afterward. If you had to redo Arbcom, Brad is the only one I could recommend keeping.
QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Sun 1st November 2009, 10:56am)
My fantasy arbcom:
1. Kelly Martin
2. Everyking
3. Durova
4. Geogre
5. Giano
6. Bishzilla
7. Fred Bauder
8. David Gerrard
9. PhilSandifer
chaired, of course by
10. Newyorkbrad
My fantasy Arbcom:
1. Lara
2. CharlotteWebb
3. Alison
4. FlyingToaster (come back, mama, Horsey misses you!)
Posted by: Casliber
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sun 1st November 2009, 10:25am)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sat 31st October 2009, 4:35pm)
If you wish, you should consider returning to Wikipedia at some point to contribute to article content, if you can do so in a collaborative fashion, but your participation in governance-related discussions was consistently unhelpful.
It has yet to be demonstrated that it is possible to contribute to a governance discussion on Wikipedia in a manner that is actually helpful.Oh I dunno, I thought we did pretty good to at least push a quasi-post-finding push to get names on Ireland and West Bank sorted....
QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Mon 2nd November 2009, 2:56am)
My fantasy arbcom:
1. Kelly Martin
2. Everyking
3. Durova
4. Geogre
5. Giano
6. Bishzilla
7. Fred Bauder
8. David Gerrard
9. PhilSandifer
chaired, of course by
10. Newyorkbrad
Can anyone think of a combination more able to case DRAMA and LOL?
Oh yes, naturally
11. Jimbo Wales
Oh Scott you cheeky boy, you forgot to put yourself in
Posted by: Happy drinker
Shouldn't we have a few more people who (judging by their posts here) believe they know how to run things better than the current ArbCom, such as Victim of Censorship?
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Happy drinker @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:03pm)
Shouldn't we have a few more people who (judging by their posts here) believe they know how to run things better than the current ArbCom, such as Victim of Censorship?
There is a family of deer who come into my backyard every now and then to graze on the bushes and to nibble at my neighbor's flowers. They could run things better than Arbcom!
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 4:09pm)
QUOTE(Happy drinker @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:03pm)
Shouldn't we have a few more people who (judging by their posts here) believe they know how to run things better than the current ArbCom, such as Victim of Censorship?
There is a family of deer who come into my backyard every now and then to graze on the bushes and to nibble at my neighbor's flowers. They could run things better than Arbcom!
Arbcom ends up doing what most partents do:
"Sally and Johnny, the next time one of your bothers the other, you get all day in your room. And if either one of you goes near Mr. Smith's pool, you're grounded for a month of Sundays. I swear to (&^%$ I'm sick of both of you, and I don't want to hear anything from either of you the rest of the day! Is that clear?"
Except that arbcom takes a month to do this. And they play favorites.
Posted by: Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:09pm)
QUOTE(Happy drinker @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:03pm)
Shouldn't we have a few more people who (judging by their posts here) believe they know how to run things better than the current ArbCom, such as Victim of Censorship?
There is a family of deer who come into my backyard every now and then to graze on the bushes and to nibble at my neighbor's flowers. They could run things better than Arbcom!
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
I take it that you do MC work for the Elks Club.
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
Except that arbcom takes a month to do this. And they play favorites.
Well, we know that already!
Posted by: Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:32pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
I take it that you do MC work for the Elks Club.
Not usually, but in this case, after reading all your horse jokes, I decided to panda to your sense of humor.
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 7:53pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:32pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
I take it that you do MC work for the Elks Club.
Not usually, but in this case, after reading all your horse jokes, I decided to panda to your sense of humor.
Be careful with animal puns, if you use too many you run the risk of boar-ing people.
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:09pm)
QUOTE(Happy drinker @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:03pm)
Shouldn't we have a few more people who (judging by their posts here) believe they know how to run things better than the current ArbCom, such as Victim of Censorship?
There is a family of deer who come into my backyard every now and then to graze on the bushes and to nibble at my neighbor's flowers. They could run things better than Arbcom!
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
Careful, Brad, or you'll go over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Newyorkbrad#That_was_awful.
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:53pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:32pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
I take it that you do MC work for the Elks Club.
Not usually, but in this case, after reading all your horse jokes, I decided to panda to your sense of humor.
Ah, I see you have gone over your joke limit!
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:53pm)
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:32pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Sun 1st November 2009, 6:25pm)
I suppose it would further the conception sometimes expressed on WR that ArbCom is a totalitarian entity, if we were run by a Deer Leader.
I take it that you do MC work for the Elks Club.
Not usually, but in this case, after reading all your horse jokes, I decided to panda to your sense of humor.
Egad, that is more than I can bear!
By the way, did you ever see this? Very cute animal music video: