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> Abigor's Meltdown
Ottava
post Mon 10th May 2010, 3:27am
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Mon 10th May 2010, 3:09am) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 2:19am) *

Well, which is racist: Asians are smart or black people are lazy? Obviously, both are generalizations and stereotypes. However, one is positive and the other is not. It is just human nature to side with it being okay to generalize to the positive but not to the negative.

To achieve a comparable level of culture-baiting you might explain how Seung-Hui Cho, for example, was a true fucking genius.


Sigh, it isn't culture baiting. People support positive stereotypes. They do not support negative ones. Its called a reputation, and people seek out to have a strong one. You should know that and I don't know why you are being so blah.
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Somey
post Mon 10th May 2010, 5:10am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 9th May 2010, 10:27pm) *
Sigh, it isn't culture baiting. People support positive stereotypes. They do not support negative ones. Its called a reputation, and people seek out to have a strong one.

Well... if you ask me, we should all seek to rid ourselves of racial and religious stereotypes whenever possible, even if they tend to be positive (bearing in mind that one man's "positive" is another man's excuse for a campaign of murder or even genocide). But if you're talking about positive national or regional stereotypes not related to race (or related as indirectly as possible), or perhaps stereotypes regarding what school(s) a person went to or what kind of music they listen to and so forth, I suppose that's probably not so bad, really. Though it still makes me a little queasy.

Anyway, getting back to User:Abigor, I've now looked through his contribs and while he does seem rather officious, this latest behavior seems to be a new thing for him. Maybe he's just been drinking too much beer in the last several days? Is there some sort of national holiday thingy going on in The Netherlands?
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Milton Roe
post Mon 10th May 2010, 7:34am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 9th May 2010, 10:10pm) *

Well... if you ask me, we should all seek to rid ourselves of racial and religious stereotypes whenever possible, even if they tend to be positive (bearing in mind that one man's "positive" is another man's excuse for a campaign of murder or even genocide).



Here's where I disagree. Stereotyping is just logical induction applied to sociology. Not only is neither intrinsically bad or good (a lot depends on accuracy)-- but since it's also unavoidable if you think and observe people very much, one should learn to make friends with it.

Illustration: Almost any good standup comic does sterotyping from start to finish. And only gets laughs if what he or she says is TRUE.
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Subtle Bee
post Mon 10th May 2010, 8:14am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 10th May 2010, 12:34am) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 9th May 2010, 10:10pm) *

Well... if you ask me, we should all seek to rid ourselves of racial and religious stereotypes whenever possible, even if they tend to be positive (bearing in mind that one man's "positive" is another man's excuse for a campaign of murder or even genocide).



Here's where I disagree. Stereotyping is just logical induction applied to sociology. Not only is neither intrinsically bad or good (a lot depends on accuracy)-- but since it's also unavoidable if you think and observe people very much, one should learn to make friends with it.

Illustration: Almost any good standup comic does sterotyping from start to finish. And only gets laughs if what he or she says is TRUE.

Here's where I disagree - comic audiences are hardly arbiters of truth. They laugh if they share the stereotype.

If being funny was the same as being right, I'd... actually, for me it wouldn't change a thing. wtf.gif
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Moulton
post Mon 10th May 2010, 8:35am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 9th May 2010, 8:37pm) *
Your actions on Wikiversity and the problems they caused are not the fault of Wikiversity or any other member.

In the never-ending conflict between ethics and corruption, it occurs to me the problems are mainly caused by the presence of corruption. Having said that, I must admit that the introduction of ethical principals and practices evidently tends to aggravate the problem, driving the corrupt factions to escalate the intensity of their corrupt practices until they have driven out those meddlesome ethicists.
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radek
post Mon 10th May 2010, 1:18pm
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QUOTE(Subtle Bee @ Mon 10th May 2010, 3:14am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 10th May 2010, 12:34am) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 9th May 2010, 10:10pm) *

Well... if you ask me, we should all seek to rid ourselves of racial and religious stereotypes whenever possible, even if they tend to be positive (bearing in mind that one man's "positive" is another man's excuse for a campaign of murder or even genocide).



Here's where I disagree. Stereotyping is just logical induction applied to sociology. Not only is neither intrinsically bad or good (a lot depends on accuracy)-- but since it's also unavoidable if you think and observe people very much, one should learn to make friends with it.

Illustration: Almost any good standup comic does sterotyping from start to finish. And only gets laughs if what he or she says is TRUE.

Here's where I disagree - comic audiences are hardly arbiters of truth. They laugh if they share the stereotype.

If being funny was the same as being right, I'd... actually, for me it wouldn't change a thing. wtf.gif


Stereotypes are a kind of a weighted mix of crude mental statistical inference based on very few data points of personal experience and hearsay and basic superstition based on the classic confusion between correlation and causation. In themselves they are a form of "weak prejudice", particularly if they are of the "good stereotype" kind. Add the common, though not universal, innate need for people to feel superior to others and willing to take almost any reason to do so and you got "strong prejudice".

I think that's agreeing with Moulton rather than Somey.

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Ottava
post Mon 10th May 2010, 1:58pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Mon 10th May 2010, 5:10am) *

Anyway, getting back to User:Abigor, I've now looked through his contribs and while he does seem rather officious, this latest behavior seems to be a new thing for him. Maybe he's just been drinking too much beer in the last several days? Is there some sort of national holiday thingy going on in The Netherlands?


I've sat in the IRC rooms he frequent for a while. There is very little here that he does. Most of the real work on Meta is handled by Stewards or by people like myself doing all the really tedious pushing things around (archiving nonsense). On Commons, it was all done by those like Tiptoety, NuclearWarfare, Juliancolton, you know, the people that get poked at quite a bit. Abigor is active over with the Dutch and German side of things, so, that would probably be something to dig into.
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NuclearWarfare
post Mon 10th May 2010, 2:21pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 1:58pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Mon 10th May 2010, 5:10am) *

Anyway, getting back to User:Abigor, I've now looked through his contribs and while he does seem rather officious, this latest behavior seems to be a new thing for him. Maybe he's just been drinking too much beer in the last several days? Is there some sort of national holiday thingy going on in The Netherlands?


I've sat in the IRC rooms he frequent for a while. There is very little here that he does. Most of the real work on Meta is handled by Stewards or by people like myself doing all the really tedious pushing things around (archiving nonsense). On Commons, it was all done by those like Tiptoety, NuclearWarfare, Juliancolton, you know, the people that get poked at quite a bit. Abigor is active over with the Dutch and German side of things, so, that would probably be something to dig into.


Wait, are you stating that I actually do something?
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Ottava
post Mon 10th May 2010, 2:48pm
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QUOTE(NuclearWarfare @ Mon 10th May 2010, 2:21pm) *

Wait, are you stating that I actually do something?


Well, enough to be mocked here. tongue.gif
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Ottava
post Mon 10th May 2010, 5:34pm
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When Abigor goes after petty revenge and fails , he protects the page himself.

This guy really loves to make it clear he has no respect for how ops are to be used.
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Milton Roe
post Mon 10th May 2010, 5:52pm
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QUOTE(radek @ Mon 10th May 2010, 6:18am) *

Stereotypes are a kind of a weighted mix of crude mental statistical inference based on very few data points of personal experience and hearsay and basic superstition based on the classic confusion between correlation and causation. In themselves they are a form of "weak prejudice", particularly if they are of the "good stereotype" kind. Add the common, though not universal, innate need for people to feel superior to others and willing to take almost any reason to do so and you got "strong prejudice".

Both "stereotype" and "prejudice" are innately biased and emotionally tainted (perhaps I should write "prejudicial") words. Apply them to car models or dog breeds or sports teams, and you see that they have limited utility. If you didn't believe that something statistical and predictive could be said about dog breeds or car models or sports teams, you'd be in poor shape in the betting pool, or as an informed consumer. But there's no argument you can make about social prejudices that I can't make as well about any inductive inference about any group whatsoever. It's not the process that is the problem, it's the errors that result when it's done incorrectly.

What makes you assume that a "stereotype" is always based on "very few data points of personal experience and hearsay and basic superstition based on the classic confusion between correlation and causation?" or are you simply defining "stereotype" that way, in which case you're simply making an information-free syllogism, ala no true Scotsman?
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Ottava
post Mon 10th May 2010, 5:57pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 10th May 2010, 5:52pm) *

Both "stereotype" and "prejudice" are innately biased and emotionally tainted (perhaps I should write "prejudicial") words.


I tend to agree with Hume that since our knowledge is based on perception, it is inherently biased and emotionally tainted.

(Not Hume:) the only way to fix that is to recognize the biases and adjust, but they will always be there in some way. Some are passive enough or just not harmful enough to be worth putting in large scale efforts to remove.
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ulsterman
post Mon 10th May 2010, 9:45pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 6:34pm) *

When Abigor goes after petty revenge and fails , he protects the page himself.

This guy really loves to make it clear he has no respect for how ops are to be used.

And then Raymond abused his admin powers by editing a protected page. ohmy.gif Is there no policy on Commons prohibiting that sort of thing?
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Ottava
post Tue 11th May 2010, 3:02am
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QUOTE(ulsterman @ Mon 10th May 2010, 9:45pm) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 6:34pm) *

When Abigor goes after petty revenge and fails , he protects the page himself.

This guy really loves to make it clear he has no respect for how ops are to be used.

And then Raymond abused his admin powers by editing a protected page. ohmy.gif Is there no policy on Commons prohibiting that sort of thing?


Obviously, whatever policies that did exist on commons are now moot.
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Killiondude
post Tue 11th May 2010, 6:58am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 10th May 2010, 8:02pm) *

Obviously, whatever policies that did exist on commons are now moot.

Votes for adminship and other special rights are normally protected after the voting is over. Admins editing it after the vote/protection isn't something new, but it's not done too much. Commons (used to be?) kind of lax about procedures like that.

I kind of agree with Kelly in that any topic Ottava seems to be in on WR turns quickly to himself. :-/ I was hoping to find more content about Abigor in this thread.

This post has been edited by Killiondude: Tue 11th May 2010, 7:00am
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pietkuip
post Wed 29th June 2011, 11:14pm
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http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:...de-adminship%29

Self-destructed.
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Abd
post Thu 30th June 2011, 1:46am
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QUOTE(pietkuip @ Wed 29th June 2011, 7:14pm) *
Wow. Extreme. Fast closed because Abigor had resigned. What came down there was so extreme that I'd suspect this wasn't Abigor at all. But it probably was.

I'd seen Stuff from him at meta. It's just surprising that he'd be so completely blatant, i.e., editing by IP, then defending those edits without acknowledging that they were him. That was grounds for blocking, in fact, not mere desysop. Abigor voluntarily requested removal at 21:00, 29 June 2011.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...e=User%3AAbigor

Indef blocked. He'd unblocked himself when short-blocked for edit warring. This was truly a flame-out.

This post has been edited by Abd: Thu 30th June 2011, 2:17am
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pietkuip
post Fri 8th July 2011, 10:54pm
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This is extreme: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Abigor#unblock

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Guido den Broeder
post Fri 8th July 2011, 11:08pm
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Especially since the same courtesy is never given to users with far lesser offenses, and Abigor himself even frequently removed a blocked user's access to their own talk page.
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Abd
post Sat 9th July 2011, 3:40am
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QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Fri 8th July 2011, 7:08pm) *
Especially since the same courtesy is never given to users with far lesser offenses, and Abigor himself even frequently removed a blocked user's access to their own talk page.
I originally had some sympathy for Guido, because of his advocacy for Greg, but I came to see that he was someone pursuing vendettas, and he was that way with Abigor, kicking him when he was down. Sure, Abigor was getting a kind of payback, I'd seen him as an administrative bully. He'd certainly abused his tools with Guido!

However, Abigor is now caught in a Catch-22, a true Kafkaesque moment.

On the one hand, it's claimed that checkuser identification of him as a the vandal, who created an account with a highly offensive username, attacking someone considered adverse to Abigor, was definitive, unmistakable, certain, with evidence in unusual detail being asserted (and which does, if true, represent the strongest level of identification), but, on the other, when Abigor requested the IP information, he was told that privacy policy prohibited that.

Which it doesn't. Permission of the user is a condition allowing release of the information, privacy and checkuser policy is explicit on that.

When I pointed this out, it was then claimed, by Ajraddatz, who had stated that the chance of false identification was "astronomically small" -- I refrained from pointing out the weird language -- that if he wasn't the vandal, revealing the vandal's IP and username to him would be violating the privacy of the vandal.

Catch-22. The user is not allowed to see the evidence against him, because he might not be guilty.

If it weren't for the seriously weird shit coming down about Poetlister, where it's clear that Wikiversity is under attack, distracting me, I think I'd have checked myself into a hospital. This stuff drives me crazy.

Abigor is probably the vandal, but ... even if he is, that he is treated with fairness and respect by *somebody* may help him get through this. And, of course, if he was framed, as he is effectively claiming, the only one who could uncover this crime would be him, if given the evidence, then investigating. Nobody else is going to do it!

It's not likely to help him, directly, but it might help someone, someday. The next victim, perhaps. "Ah! This also happened with Abigor two years ago, after conflict with the same user!"
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