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> OrangeMarlin speaks his mind, (and then possibly dies)
carbuncle
post Fri 8th July 2011, 2:36pm
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QUOTE
Parting thoughts

For the past six months, I have been very ill with a type of heart disease that can be end-stage if not treated well. For the last three months, I've had to give up many of my pleasures in life, including riding a motorcycle and hiking. Luckily, I've been able to maintain a reasonable lifestyle with medication, but it was always a temporary measure. I've done a few things over the past few months that I had always planned to do. I camped in Tioga Pass above Yosemite National Park. Still about 4 metres (13 ft) of snow up there. I stood at 12,000 feet (3,700 m) above sea level touching some of the remnant glaciers of the last ice age melting away because of stupid Republican anti-science dumbfuckedness (my word, don't use it). I sat inside the giant Long Valley Caldera in Eastern California. If this thing ever blows, mankind could experience a population bottleneck of epic proportions. I stood inside the exploded volcano of which Mount Lassen is a part. Oh, over 30 feet (9.1 m) of snow. We had an amazing winter. The thin air was painful, but these are sights that I wish you all could see.

Anyways, I'm undergoing an experimental medical procedure that is the result of real science and evidence based medicine. It doesn't require faith or magic or belief in magical sky beings, it merely requires well trained surgeons, great devices developed and tested by Americans in California, and with medications from Big Pharma. And it will be paid for by my private healthcare insurance that is sadly available because I have the money to buy it. Even still, my chances are not high.

I left this place 2 years ago, because it's run by little self-important admins who think their shit doesn't stink. That isn't a blanket statement, because there are a few good admins, but not enough. Right now, there is a fucked up RfA where a little punk who plagiarizes content has got a bunch of fucking votes for admin. Lucky for us, SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) outed him/her. But how many do we get that aren't outed.

* Dreadstar (talk · contribs) lied at his RfA, totally lied, and protects little POV-pushing fucktards like Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs). Dreadstar should get desysopped, and thrown into fucking Wikipedia hell for that lie. Yes, Dreadstar, you're a fucking two-faced loser. You're life is so pathetic, that you lied to get an admin. There's this thing about those who lie about the little shit, you probably lie about the big stuff. My guess is that you'll be in prison in a couple of years. I mean lying to be an admin, I just think that's laughable And very sad. What can you expect from a psychopath.

* Fences and windows (talk · contribs) You contemptible, little twat. Threatening me with a block for saying FUCK. Then threatening an Arbcom member with a block for saying that you are fucking full of shit. Fences and Windows, you must suck Dreadstar's cock, because honestly, you live in his basement. What a loser you are.

* DMSBel (talk · contribs) Go fuck yourself you pathetic little obsessive little punk. Roe v Wade is the law of the land, and your right wing agenda means nothing. Abortions are part of the modern world, and an unviable fetus does not die. It's just a bunch of fucking cells you sanctimonious obsessive little fuck. Go download porn, because your obsession with sex is clearly an indicator of a guy who gets his jollies from porn. And you should be prepared for a huge boomerang up your ass, but you might enjoy it. Obviously, it's part of your sex addiction, you wretched lamentable pile of horseshit.

* Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs) You're gone, so I shouldn't kick a fucktard in the balls, but you narcissistic personality disorder is beyond belief. I guess you come here because you lack friends. Oh well, you're wallowing in your pit of despair, so I guess I don't care.

* FT2 (talk · contribs) Wow, the purloined emails proved to everyone what I already knew. You are an immoral, unethical creep. You are disgusting as a human being. I'm glad Arbcom fucked you up one side and down the other, because you are probably the most reprehensible individuals on Wikipedia.

* Cla68 (talk · contribs) You are a fucking coward of the most heinous kind. You accuse individuals who don't agree with you of having Asperger's syndrome. Obviously, you know nothing about it, but it is a terrible disease. You invent cabals. You throw out nonsense wherever you can. You never read or understand anything about which you profess knowledge. Then you go running to Wikipedia review to whine like a little fucking baby that you are. You are so childish that I find you almost pathetic. I would say you were living in your mommy's basement, but I think your mommy tucks you in at night. You sir are a complete loser, and really you should move on.

Wikipedia is an interesting, but flawed experiment in knowledge. it is a major failure in getting experienced and knowledgeable writers to edit articles. Two of the world's experts on Global warming, both of whom are Ph.D.'s in real science, but neither get to do much. One was defrocked. The other defrocked himself. No real academic would put his real name on any articles here because the anti-science culture of Wikipedia would block it.

I was fighting a battle on Reincarnation research. Give me a fucking break, but there isn't one stitch of evidence anywhere in any of the psychic fields. There are no ghosts. There are no angels. There are no fucking gods. And yes, despite what someone said, the absence of evidence, especially when you expect to see evidence IS evidence of absence. We've looked for the Lochness monster. It does not exist. We've looked for reincarnation. It isn't there. The stupidity is just stupid.

There's more to say, but I guess I don't give too much of a shit. I hope there will be real change here, but I doubt it. Jimbo Wales has bought into the right wing POV pushers, or he would have stopped the travesty done to William Connelly. He actually tried to get a bogus medical procedure to remain on here as an article, and he was FUCKING WRONG. Yes, Jimbo, you were wrong, and you never ever apologized for being wrong. You should go back to your porn with DMSbel, because you are truly useless. I used to respect you. No, your anti-intellectual, anti-academic, and anti-science regime has come into being. I think you've lived in the New Age bullshit for way too long. Oh, I was wrong about Trevor's not knowing Germ theory. He didn't know ANYTHING about science and medicine. Trevor was and is a charlatan.

But, Wikipedia has a chance to be great. Seriously great. If a real leader (come on Jimbo, you actually can do it if you quit the attempt at pure democracy), states a vision and makes everyone adhere to that vision. Convince the real editors to stay, and realize that great editors make great mistakes. Useless editors make lots of useless mistakes. Take the former, get rid of the latter. And end the incessant whining and drama on Arbcom and the various AN/I's. Who gives a flying fuck about civility? What counts is productivity and quality PERIOD. I run a fucking company. We care about the customer, and that's it. Wikipedia's customer are people trying to get accurate information. Every college in the world (OK, maybe not all) bans Wikipedia as a source. That is just wrong, and shows a lack of leadership to move this place to mean something. I won't tell you what I make an hour in real life, but it's a lot more than probably 99.9% of the people editing here. And I've given this project thousands of those hours. That's valuable, and I guess that's why I don't give a shit about what some whiny admin thinks of me. They can go back to their basement. I get to bring another medical device to the market, make millions off of it, and save lives. There are doctors here who do the same thing. There are professors here who are bringing the best and brightest into the working world. And then there are a bunch of your loser admins sitting in the basement. I wouldn't give them the time of day in real life.

Well, I'll either be dead or alive by Monday morning. I'm hoping for the alive, but the odds don't favor it. If I make it, I may or may not come back, I may reappear as a sock. Oh horrors! Or, if I'm dead, well, as it says on some anonymous headstone, "I now know more than all of you." And dammit, if I do get reincarnated as a cockroach, I intend to burrow myself into Cla69's brain...though there might not be much there. Fuck the world!

Yo Boris. Leave some pithy comment here. I'll read it on my iPhone while I spend some time with friends over the next few days. I hope some cowardly douche fuckwad of an admin doesn't delete this comment with that delete tool. In fact, I hope someone does try, so that real admins will revert. It may be fun to watch.

To you asshat POV-pushing dumbfucks...go fuck yourselves. Seriously do it for humanity, because you are not that important.

Hans Adler...I don't get you. But you're German, and my people have a certain sensitivity to the Huns. Michael C Price...I don't agree with about 75% of what you write, but as Hans says, it's a technicolor world. You really know your geology, stick to that.

Couple of more things. Go Orange. Go Marlins. And I wish I could eat a giant, fatty piece of prime rib. Anyways, au revoir, auf wiedersehen, goodbye. What a Long Strange Trip It's Been.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 05:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


This post has been edited by carbuncle: Fri 8th July 2011, 2:37pm
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Abd
post Fri 8th July 2011, 5:56pm
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Fri 8th July 2011, 10:36am) *
QUOTE
Couple of more things. Go Orange. Go Marlins. And I wish I could eat a giant, fatty piece of prime rib. Anyways, au revoir, auf wiedersehen, goodbye. What a Long Strange Trip It's Been.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 05:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, passionate. Facing the reality of death can do that, I'll testify.

OrangeMarlin has confused apparent scientific consensus for the real thing. Otherwise he might eat that prime rib, the "scientific consensus" that fat was bad for your heart was never a real scientific consensus, based on solid research, and, strange thing, when real research was done, it kept coming up with no correlation between saturated fat in the diet and heart disease. The original study on which the governmental recommendations on low fat was based had been cherry-picked, and it was known that the science wasn't solid, but "We can't afford to wait! People will die needlessly!"

There was a time when it was difficult to get sensible reviews of the research published ("Irresponsible!" What if people eat fat and keel over?"), and it was outlaws like Atkins (a cardiologist!) who defied this and were condemned.

Thanks, OrangeMarlin, for standing up for what you think. We all should do that, and then talk to each other and listen. Eh?

It's been claimed by some that you can trigger a heart attack by eating that big piece of prime rib. I've asked and have never found the evidence for this, it's anecdotal, as far as I can tell. Fat in the diet does not directly lead to arteriosclerosis, the cholesterol in the blood is made, not from fat, but from carbohydrates. If I've got it right.

I can say this, I love prime rib, especially the fat. This was my natural preference as a child, and I've observed this love of fat in people not from American culture, which developed, over the last thirty years, an aversion to fat of all kinds. As a child, I was told, "Have some bread with your butter." My natural inclination, I love that butter, and, on mashed potatoes, sour cream.

But, well over twenty years ago, my doctor told me that my cholesterol was too high, I should go on a low-fat diet. So I did, greatly increasing my intake of pasta and the like. I gained about thirty pounds, as I now know could be expected, and eventually developed prostate cancer, which I now have strong reason to suspect is not unrelated to the change in diet. Most cancers love and need lots of glucose to develop, and lots of insulin. Cancer is a "disease of civilization," associated with mechanized agriculture and heavy consumption of processed carbohydrates. Same as heart disease and diabetes.

So the rest of my story: since I went on a very-low-carb diet, with lots of saturated fat, about five years ago, my cholesterol is higher, to be sure, but the other markers of heart risk are fine, low triglycerides, high HDL/LDL ratio, and low CRP. I had a cardiac CAT scan done to be safe, at my own expense. Very low risk.

And my prostrate cancer is not advancing, and PSA tests have actually shown a significant and sustained decline, whatever that means. As to those who might be concerned, I'm Stage 1, no symptoms -- other than a moderately raised PSA level with what seemed like high PSA velocity, and a father who had prostate cancer -- and I am probably going to die from something other than prostate cancer, the way this has been going.

I trusted the "scientific consensus," as did my doctor thirty years ago -- great guy! -- and only later discovered what was behind it, politics. Kind of like Wikipedia and "editorial consensus."

The wake-up call has been great, though. Good luck, OM, with your future, may it be long and full of joy.
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Milton Roe
post Fri 8th July 2011, 7:26pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Fri 8th July 2011, 10:56am) *

QUOTE(Orange Marlin)
Couple of more things. Go Orange. Go Marlins. And I wish I could eat a giant, fatty piece of prime rib. Anyways, au revoir, auf wiedersehen, goodbye. What a Long Strange Trip It's Been.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 05:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, passionate. Facing the reality of death can do that, I'll testify.

OrangeMarlin has confused apparent scientific consensus for the real thing. Otherwise he might eat that prime rib, the "scientific consensus" that fat was bad for your heart was never a real scientific consensus, based on solid research, and, strange thing, when real research was done, it kept coming up with no correlation between saturated fat in the diet and heart disease. The original study on which the governmental recommendations on low fat was based had been cherry-picked, and it was known that the science wasn't solid, but "We can't afford to wait! People will die needlessly!"

There was a time when it was difficult to get sensible reviews of the research published ("Irresponsible!" What if people eat fat and keel over?"), and it was outlaws like Atkins (a cardiologist!) who defied this and were condemned.

Thanks, OrangeMarlin, for standing up for what you think. We all should do that, and then talk to each other and listen. Eh?

You know, I very nearly wrote some of your message above. OM has been a terrible apologist for the "standard POV" of medical profession, even when it didn't have much backing. The "French paradox" was called a "paradox" because the French didn't get that much heart disease, despite all that saturated fat. Nor did Polynesians eating "tropical oils." Nor do drinkers of whole milk.

However, big eaters of red meat and not a lot else (no fish, few vegetables, lots of carbs) DO get heart disease. Ask the Finns. So do not throw away the baby with the bathwater. There's something very bad about eating the way Finns do, and something good about eating the way the French and Japanese do.

OM has a bad disease and is pissed-off at the world. Okay-- he has a right to be. But once he gets over the anger stage, and if he survives in the sort term, he might pass on to the self-introspection phase where he might wonder what happens when WP repeats the "house POV" of medicine, and that house POV is strongly influenced by drug company interests and the interests of people who get paid for doing medical procedures. All that's not a hell of a lot different from "paid editing," is it? Did you know half the salary of the average oncologist comes from buying and then delivering (at substantial markup) the chemo he or she prescribes? That is frowned on with drugs for other types of MDs. Vets do that with their drugs, however, and we let oncologists do it with theirs, because we don't want to pay them what they'd cost otherwise. That's likely to lead to about as much objectivity as if people who ordered MRIs owned MRI centers (now illegal, go figure).

Earth to OM: if your cardiomyopathy doesn't kill you, you might start to wonder exactly how WP is going to overcome the money-biases and self-interest-biases of the world. If it's impossible (my own opinion) might it not lead to you being a bit more humble about people who seem to have "bias" on WP? Whe does not? It's not like it's a war between Good Guys and Bad Guys. Rather, it's a war between sanctioned bad guys and unsanctioned bad guys.

Yes, it's that same way in regular violent wars, too. If some civilian in the Middle East or Afghanistan sends a device to America to kill people at the Pentagon, and it blows up come civilians instead, we label him a "terrorist," operating outside the (supposedly international) "laws of war." But suppose some non military person who works for the CIA, is controlling a Preditor drone in Afghanistan, and uses a Hellfire missle to blow up a house that contains some children? Why is he not a terrorist? He's not even a military guy-- he just works for the government. You can't even find out his name. He draws a paycheck. He plays a videogame. He'll never be subject to rendition or find himself answering at The Hague.

It works much like that on Wikipedia, and for a while, Orange, you were part of the "CIA team" that defends the standard POV, with whatever it takes. Asshole. You might well be incarnated as a roach, if you don't start understanding that "authority" doesn't always make for truth, nor power for right. As an editor, you still need to be educated and you still need to think for yourself. Of course, that's not really WP's policy.
QUOTE(Abd @ Fri 8th July 2011, 10:56am) *

It's been claimed by some that you can trigger a heart attack by eating that big piece of prime rib. I've asked and have never found the evidence for this, it's anecdotal, as far as I can tell. Fat in the diet does not directly lead to arteriosclerosis, the cholesterol in the blood is made, not from fat, but from carbohydrates. If I've got it right.


You don't. A big saturated fat load of certain types will make your platelets more sticky for a few hours. That can lead to a clot at an already narrowed vascular point, compromised by plaque.
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post Fri 8th July 2011, 8:37pm
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He ain't dead yet......came back, apparently to bitch about Hans Adler and DMSBel:
QUOTE
Last edit, kind of like last words, but I hope not

First of all, Hans. Stick with math. LOL My behavior is neither causal nor a symptom of what I'm going through. I've explained it to a couple of the physician types who are "friends" here, and it's extremely complex related to something that happened to me about six months ago. I have never had a heart attack (which you implied). I hope to never have one either.

I kind of read some of the crap from DMSBel today. He's probably having a woody that I'm dying, which he can use while downloading porn. Honestly people, if you don't topic ban him, you're doing a disservice to the project. He is one of the most objectionable human beings around here, right along with FT2. They are what my daughters call creepy. But DMSBel, I'm irrelevant to the abortion article. But you certainly think I am, which is certainly one of the most deluded things I've ever seen. You see, I can analyze someone quite rapidly on here, and so can others.

And those of you who think I'm lying or making this up, that would be untrue. Oh well, that's your cruel, small mind, not mine. Think about the long letters I've had to write to my daughters, telling them how much I regret going to miss their weddings, college graduations, and all the other seminal events of a young life. Think about how I'll miss watching baseball games and whether the characters of Lost ever get off the island. Oh, I saw that. I guess I'm ignoring it. I'm going to miss seeing what modern medicine will do for humanity. One day, the procedure that I'm undergoing will be a notable one, with an article here. It is being done by top cardiologists in the country in one of the top hospitals in the country. The science behind it is amazing. I've been fully informed by its risks and its benefits. The company that developed it is following appropriate FDA procedures and institutional review board approvals. Sorry Jimbo, but this is how real medical studies are done, not the crap ones that you and your admins support (mostly).

I'll miss this place too. This place has been entertaining for the past few months. I enjoyed editing here a few hours a day. None of you noticed, but I tweaked only those who were total assholes–they are the ones who responded with the whiny ANI's or whatever else I ignored complete. It was so easy that I probably shouldn't have done it, but it was more than amusing. But that wasn't my goal here, it was mostly editing some real articles, which I hope stand forever.

I appreciate all of the kind words. Seriously, I do. Thus ends my final edit. Except for one thing. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 16:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Final words: DMSBel...you are a pervert. You need help. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 16:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


NOW do you admit that your "community" is sick, OM? Why does it take a good long stare into your impending death, to get you to be totally honest?
PS, I love how shortly after you posted your parting thoughts, a passel of nerds showed up to censor your talkpage. Nice.


This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Fri 8th July 2011, 8:45pm
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post Fri 8th July 2011, 8:52pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th July 2011, 3:26pm) *
You don't. A big saturated fat load of certain types will make your platelets more sticky for a few hours. That can lead to a clot at an already narrowed vascular point, compromised by plaque.
Cool. I've seen this allegation.

Notice that this scenario requires already heavily compromised arteries, ready to go anyway. Further, it requires a "big saturated fat load," so a small portion of prime rib might be just fine.

So, my question: what does the research actually show as to people dropping dead from eating 16 ounces of prime rib (which is more than I can personally tolerate, at about 8-12 ounces I start to become fat-averse, which is natural, fat sates)?

High fat *diets*, as distinct from a single huge load as described, might make such an improvement in the blood chemistry as to swamp the effect with platelets, if that is real.

There was mention of high-fat, high-carb diets. My experience with and the evidence for the safety of high-fat diets is in connection with them being low-carb. In those diets, the reduction in calorie intake from lowering carbs is balanced by increased fat, typically, protein being held more or less constant (this would be the Atkins diet.)

The effect of diet is, as I stated, extremely complex, and there isn't much money available for research, the money goes into drug research, because drugs can be sold for high profit margins, and that's not true for food. Food research is a critical public interest and should not be having to beg for funding, but such is the system we have. The political system is just as bad as Wikipedia, if not worse.

What disappointed many of us is that we expected Wikipedia to have a possibility of functioning better, which was naive, if we thought it would happen naturally. ("Articles will naturally improve with time.") It didn't do that reliably, for reasons that many of us understand well, all too well.

Yeah, as I recall, OM was part of the problem, but it's rude and cruel to kick someone when they are down. A brush with death can bring humility to many of us, and perhaps it will do this for OM, we can hope. So, he was a jerk. I've been a jerk, myself, right?

After all, I'm insufferably "right," it would appear. I'll apologize for that right here and now.

Which doesn't mean that I was "wrong." I'd confused taking a stand, which I believe necessary and which I congratulated OM for, with being right, I unconsciously thought I had to be right to take a stand.

Wrong.

I was liberated from Wikipedia when I took a stand without insisting on being right. I'm still doing that, and I'll present my arguments, the same as before. However, before, I was heavily influenced by a desire to appear reasonable. That's part of needing to maintain an image of being right. A huge trap.
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post Fri 8th July 2011, 8:59pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 8th July 2011, 4:37pm) *
PS, I love how shortly after you posted your parting thoughts, a passel of nerds showed up to censor your talkpage. Nice.[/b]
There is a middle ground, and I saw some evidence that some were taking it. That's blanking of offensive content -- it's offensive! --, with a link to it. Nothing there required revision deletion, and it was refreshingly honest. And inappropriate to leave standing.

Both.

No, what is a bit more disturbing is that OM wasn't blocked for those comments. Wikipedia has set up being blocked as being some kind of insult, so how could we be so cruel as to insult someone who might be dying?

But this is small on the scale of Wikipedia abuse.
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powercorrupts
post Fri 8th July 2011, 9:12pm
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At least he's finally admitted to running a company - but it's the fact that it's a medical one selling products to the industry that's always made him COI problematic. I read him boasting about it a 'how to make a million' thread on website once: someone called orangemarlin that was unmistakably him.

Knowing OM the bully (rather than the 'saviour of sense'), I can't help feeling that the first paragraph, effecting though it is, is essentially there to temper his typically abusive attacks on people he doesn't like. My big issue with him was how he treated new editors editing on medical issues. He very often simply refused to do AGF (which isn't always easy – but it's a reasonable start), and wasn't interested in even attempting for balance and weight if he didn't like something (ie religion or 'complementary health'). People would come to Wikipedia either with serious health problems (or had loved ones with them), bump into OM and essentially get some shockingly OTT abuse for writing the wrong thing. I wonder how many people he's sent away quite upset in his editing career. The irony here is that when you have a congenital illness or terminal disease - which some of OM's editing areas were about - even 'scientific' people look at non 'pharmo-approved' ways to save their lives, or at least ease the symptoms.

There's always been a battle in society between the extremes of the lobbying pharmos and the snake oil salesmen - though OM was so on the 'pharmo medical' side he wasn't even comfortable with care issues weighing down the 'Serious' side of things. There seemed to almost be a macho value attached to it. Now he has a terminal disease, all he can do it seems is carry on being a bully and dream of spare ribs, of all things. And he's still calling other people 'losers'. His talk page had a real 'Men's Club' as Facebook page feel to it - and he wasn't the only one to blame for that. It's hard not to judge editors on how they react to OM. His strength of course was that despite his enemies, he knew the value of making friends.

By the way, do Jews in the US still use the corny "my people" line? I accept that being Jewish is more than just the religious side, but that card he plays really rubs against his aggressive atheism.
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RMHED
post Fri 8th July 2011, 9:18pm
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Orange Marlin dying!

So sad, now where did I put that tiny violin.
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thekohser
post Fri 8th July 2011, 9:44pm
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He didn't mention me, so this is therefore not important to me.

That was one hell of an exit sign-off, though! Such venom. Where's the WikiLove?
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Milton Roe
post Fri 8th July 2011, 10:01pm
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QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Fri 8th July 2011, 2:12pm) *

By the way, do Jews in the US still use the corny "my people" line? I accept that being Jewish is more than just the religious side, but that card he plays really rubs against his aggressive atheism.

Why so? Half the Jews in Israel are secular. They define Jewish as ethnicity not religion when it suits then to do so (whether they wish to claim religious or ethnic persecuation). When "OM" says "my people" he means "my clan". My tribe. The people who look like me and have my culture.

IOW, the very stuff he'd be screaming was "racist" if anybody else did it about their own blood, clan, culture, etc.

Do many Jews want this issue both ways? Yes, they do.

A small example: suppose you want to earn money by lighting the fires and flipping the switches of orthodox Jews on the sabbath. And you're Christian or atheist. That's fine with orthodox Jews. But if you're genetically Jewish (if your mother is genetically Jew, and HER mother was genetically Jewish and so on) then you can't have this job. It is against orthodox law, and would be a sin, for them to employ anybody with a Jewish bloodline to do this, no matter if they were not at all observant, or indeed not even if they had converted to Christianity or some other religion. It's basically a racist hiring decision, since it's based on genetics-only. End.
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Guido den Broeder
post Fri 8th July 2011, 10:46pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 8th July 2011, 11:44pm) *

He didn't mention me, so this is therefore not important to me.

That was one hell of an exit sign-off, though! Such venom. Where's the WikiLove?


He probably spent all of it when he posted a death threat against me a few years back.
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Sololol
post Sat 9th July 2011, 2:23am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 8th July 2011, 6:01pm) *

A small example: suppose you want to earn money by lighting the fires and flipping the switches of orthodox Jews on the sabbath. And you're Christian or atheist. That's fine with orthodox Jews. But if you're genetically Jewish (if your mother is genetically Jew, and HER mother was genetically Jewish and so on) then you can't have this job. It is against orthodox law, and would be a sin, for them to employ anybody with a Jewish bloodline to do this, no matter if they were not at all observant, or indeed not even if they had converted to Christianity or some other religion. It's basically a racist hiring decision, since it's based on genetics-only. End.

Tsk, tsk, Milton. To my great horror I must join with Wikifan in reprimanding you. Not because I get a self-righteous kick out of all calling people bigots but because that's only one interpretation of halacha which sucks all the fun right out of it. It depends on which rabbi you ask. Are we talking about the Ashkenazic, Sephardic or Mizrachi tradition? Haredi? Modern Orthodox? Some rabbis maintain that it's forbidden to employ anyone at all on the sabbath as even animals are supposed to be resting and treating non-Jews worse than animals wouldn't be very sporting. Others say it's allowed only if it's not specified when the work must take place, or if you are paying by the job and not hourly, or if the (non)-employee benefits from the work but you don't. Some liberal rabbis might allow an apostate/secular Jew to serve as a shabbos goy. I find all of it terribly fascinating as these kinds of debates have raged for centuries. But yes, sticking to the pre-modern definitions that draw no line between ethnic origin and religion (look at the Samaritans! want to join? too bad, no outsiders allowed), and there are many interpretations that say someone born to a Jewish woman is a Jew and thats that, conflicts with the modern notion that assigning indelible traits to people based on origin is a really bad idea. You are generally correct that a number of Orthodox interpretations run counter to the traditional Western view which makes a lot of Jews uncomfortable. Hence why Reform doesn't.

But I guess it's just easier to call people dicks if they criticize a practice of a group you feel some connection to instead of trying to have a civilized conversation about why you think it was improper. Especially if that seems to be your only purpose on the Internet. yak.gif
Derail over.

This post has been edited by Sololol: Sat 9th July 2011, 2:26am
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melloden
post Sat 9th July 2011, 2:58am
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Risker has removed the commentary about the specific users, but note how she doesn't redact the "attacks" against Jimbo.
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SB_Johnny
post Sat 9th July 2011, 8:36am
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QUOTE(melloden @ Fri 8th July 2011, 10:58pm) *

Risker has removed the commentary about the specific users, but note how she doesn't redact the "attacks" against Jimbo.

The edit comment is classic:
QUOTE
sorry, OM, you know this can't be left here, and nobody else has the cojones. Kinda sad it's left to the girls to clean up. ;-)
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Cla68
post Sat 9th July 2011, 10:35am
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I'd like to say that if I thought I might have only 48 -hours left to live, that I wouldn't spend it bollocking anonymous strangers on the Internet. You never know, however, what situation you might find yourself in at such a time. If someone's primary motivation for editing certain articles in Wikipedia is to make sure that only the TRUTH is present, and they feel that their efforts are crucial in helping save lives or livelihoods, then that person may take their Wikipedia editing a little too seriously.

This post has been edited by Cla68: Sat 9th July 2011, 11:05am
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powercorrupts
post Sat 9th July 2011, 10:36am
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 9th July 2011, 9:36am) *

QUOTE(melloden @ Fri 8th July 2011, 10:58pm) *

Risker has removed the commentary about the specific users, but note how she doesn't redact the "attacks" against Jimbo.

The edit comment is classic:
QUOTE
sorry, OM, you know this can't be left here, and nobody else has the cojones. Kinda sad it's left to the girls to clean up. ;-)



She then straps on her dildo and crams it all the way up his ass.
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Wikifan
post Sat 9th July 2011, 12:43pm
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Hey Roe you sensitive little bitch this is the third fucking time you removed my comment. What gives? Sol even recognized my statements.

Talking shit about Jews is honky dory but calling you on it is a no-no? Abd's walls of text, Nableezy's crying Arab nationalist rhetoric and OM's angry personal attacks is FINE.

But accusing you of bigotry must be SILENCED?! Are you not the same editor that constantly accuses "Jews" of silencing their critics through similar measures?

What fucking gives. Stop deleting my posts, assholes.
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Angela Kennedy
post Sat 9th July 2011, 1:30pm
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QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Fri 8th July 2011, 11:46pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 8th July 2011, 11:44pm) *

He didn't mention me, so this is therefore not important to me.

That was one hell of an exit sign-off, though! Such venom. Where's the WikiLove?


He probably spent all of it when he posted a death threat against me a few years back.


Seriously Guido? What happened?
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melloden
post Sat 9th July 2011, 1:58pm
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Sat 9th July 2011, 12:43pm) *

Hey Roe you sensitive little bitch this is the third fucking time you removed my comment. What gives? Sol even recognized my statements.

Talking shit about Jews is honky dory but calling you on it is a no-no? Abd's walls of text, Nableezy's crying Arab nationalist rhetoric and OM's angry personal attacks is FINE.

But accusing you of bigotry must be SILENCED?! Are you not the same editor that constantly accuses "Jews" of silencing their critics through similar measures?

What fucking gives. Stop deleting my posts, assholes.

Now, now, we all know that life isn't fair and that whining won't solve anything. Maybe the problem is ... somewhere else?
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Guido den Broeder
post Sat 9th July 2011, 3:19pm
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QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Sat 9th July 2011, 3:30pm) *

QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Fri 8th July 2011, 11:46pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 8th July 2011, 11:44pm) *

He didn't mention me, so this is therefore not important to me.

That was one hell of an exit sign-off, though! Such venom. Where's the WikiLove?


He probably spent all of it when he posted a death threat against me a few years back.


Seriously Guido? What happened?


Hi Angela,

The usual. When I complained, some adminiots threatened to block me.
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