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> Are Feature articles worth their salt?, Feature article quality evaluation shows they're a crock
Eppur si muove
post Wed 23rd November 2011, 11:27pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 10:35pm) *



An article like Samuel Johnson (chosen because it is a shared FA of Malleus and myself and you are referring to us both) is a truly "vital" article in the academic sense - it is a major figure that is historic, has a lot of academic sources, and is someone that an encyclopedia should be used to contain information on.


And it is no surprise that this is a joint development. There is going to be a strong correlation between the number of times an article is viewed and the number of contributors and this means that popular subjects to read are more likely to have editors willing to collaborate on reaching a milestone.

Of my various recognised content, the article on Wagner is the only one with more than two significant contributors. Most of the ones I've pushed up on my own are self-contained with little source material out there which makes it easy to manage on my own. However, they have relatively few views which will make the Wikimedia beancounters think I have wasted my time.

My solo GA which has attained the magic 3000 hits a month is Troilus. It is a significant subject with lots of academic sources. However, it is not a collectible card game, hurricane or sporting season and therefore does not appeal greatly to the typical Wikipedian. I've at various times toyed with the idea of getting it to FA, but it is such a big topic that I feel rather lost as to what to do next. It would benefit from access to an academic library. (And anyway Jimbo is a dickhead so why should I dedicate the amount of time required?) A callaborator would help address all but the third problem but this introduces a different way of working. Some people prefer to work on their own and if what they produce is only read by a couple of thousand people a year, then that's fine and only Jimbo's lackeys find it a problem.
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Ottava
post Wed 23rd November 2011, 11:40pm
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QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 5:41pm) *

You speak volumes! Clearly your little world is not the one that Wikipedia.org is aiming for exclusively. Jimbo is reaching toward India! And the rest of the world.

Can you believe that there is soon to be a time when no one will care about Samuel Johnson?

House (as in structure) is more important globally.



1. "House" is too generic of a term. What those in India consider a house is not the same as those in the US.

2. Pages like "House" are better served in wikitionary and not with an encyclopedia article.

3. India, like China and Japan, has a large amount of interest in British literature. You'd be amazed by the thousands of Asian PhDs in English Literature. Their publication standards tend to be low, and much of it tends towards comparative analysis, but it isn't the lack of interest as you claim.

Furthermore, a page on "house" will not help high school and college kids get ahead. Pages that are truly encyclopedic and truly vital would.
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thekohser
post Thu 24th November 2011, 4:12am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 6:40pm) *

Furthermore, a page on "house" will not help high school and college kids get ahead. Pages that are truly encyclopedic and truly vital would.


Jeffrey, have you ever owned a house that wasn't handed down to you by your parents? Just askin'.
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radek
post Thu 24th November 2011, 4:52am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 1:53pm) *

The articles I worked on were all highly viewed and traditional when it came to academia.

However, most of the articles at FAC were obscure animals, obscure roads, obscure bands, obscure military battles, etc.


Dude. You're missing one:

"OBSCURE SHIPS"

and within that category

"OBSCURE SUBMARINES"

(ok, that maybe more of a GA problem)
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radek
post Thu 24th November 2011, 4:55am
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QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 2:37pm) *

The thing is how long can an FA keep its status without eroding? Subtle vandals can just water down that featured article and it can ultimately end up total crap because "anyone can edit." Sure, there are those who protect articles but how many years can you keep that up? If you can just say once an article reaches FA status it should be locked up and just be updated when something new comes up. However, the culture over there will never allow it.


I've thought about this before too - cynically, and all. So you get an article you care about to FA status. The thing to do THEN is to make a sockpuppet and start vandalizing your own FA. Then use your legitimate account to request protection. And usually once that's in place, the admins loose interest so it can be protected more or less indefinitely (if someone removes it, go back to step one).

It's sort of a "ghetto flagged revisions" for a system that refuses to implement them but badly needs'em.

Of course I've never done anything like this, but it makes sense.
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Ottava
post Thu 24th November 2011, 1:06pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 11:12pm) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 6:40pm) *

Furthermore, a page on "house" will not help high school and college kids get ahead. Pages that are truly encyclopedic and truly vital would.


Jeffrey, have you ever owned a house that wasn't handed down to you by your parents? Just askin'.



Why would that matter to a student? It isn't a page on home ownership, and even if it was it couldn't be a guide. And why would homes in India be the same as homes here? What is the point of that question?
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chrisoff
post Thu 24th November 2011, 1:33pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:06am) *

Why would that matter to a student? It isn't a page on home ownership, and even if it was it couldn't be a guide. And why would homes in India be the same as homes here? What is the point of that question?


Do you think Wikipedia is just for students? Just for people like you?

You probably agree with this "so-called" FA editor (who is probably pissed that she wasn't mentioned in TCO's report at all), whose response to the points made in the report - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...nt_articles.pdf was this:
QUOTE

"I think one of the most important retorts to this is that people already know about most vital topics. I know what history is." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462151898



At least it got the FAC talk page going, which has been fairly dead lately.

And the FAC director managed to drive Jimmy Butler's biology class from Wikipedia. He announced that he is pulling out at the end of the year, a professor whose class has been praised by others on wiki.

QUOTE
"We will be pulling out of Wikipedia in January. I will remain off the discussion pages and focus all my energies on the student's efforts. For many reasons (not specific to this current concern), this is the projects last year. So please accept my apology and I will soon drop off the radar."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462220611


But of course, the FA director must have the LAST WORD, worrying that her skiing vacation next week will be disrupted by the poor teacher's student edits and will:

QUOTE
expect me to be available to help when I'm skiing next week


(The FA director is a little self absorbed!)


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462229131

This post has been edited by chrisoff: Thu 24th November 2011, 3:21pm
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thekohser
post Thu 24th November 2011, 4:24pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:06am) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 11:12pm) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 6:40pm) *

Furthermore, a page on "house" will not help high school and college kids get ahead. Pages that are truly encyclopedic and truly vital would.


Jeffrey, have you ever owned a house that wasn't handed down to you by your parents? Just askin'.



Why would that matter to a student? It isn't a page on home ownership, and even if it was it couldn't be a guide. And why would homes in India be the same as homes here? What is the point of that question?


You appear to assume that no high school students or college "kids" have any intention of entering the home building trade, and that they would have no use of a solid, encyclopedic background of the "house". I count among my local "grown up" friends, not one -- but two -- men who went to college and now own their own home construction and remodeling businesses.

So, the point of my question was to perhaps flesh out a theory of mind about how you could say something so patently wrong, and I thought it may be because you've never had to make a large purchase of something like a house, and so you've never thought too carefully about the industry that makes houses appear across the land.

I'll assume from your response that, no, you have never owned a house that wasn't handed down to you from your parents.
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chrisoff
post Thu 24th November 2011, 6:12pm
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QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) *

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) *
Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.

And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though.



Malleus, the FAC director can't stand the idea of collaboration. See how she has gone off on the FAC talk page and else where, slinging insults at her "enemies", TCO, Jimmy Butler (the teacher), Piortus, and others? And even Sp33dyphil, just because he received praise!

For example, she dings Jimmy Butler for this remark:
QUOTE

Collaboration is the key to the projects success. However, when we are successful, some argue that it is due to collaboration.



http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462196143

Poor guy, he's just a teacher.
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SB_Johnny
post Thu 24th November 2011, 7:16pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 24th November 2011, 11:24am) *

I'll assume from your response that, no, you have never owned a house that wasn't handed down to you from your parents.

I'm pretty sure he's never owned a house at all, because his parents are still using most of it (aside from the basement, which he owns). laugh.gif
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Malleus
post Thu 24th November 2011, 11:08pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Thu 24th November 2011, 7:16pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 24th November 2011, 11:24am) *

I'll assume from your response that, no, you have never owned a house that wasn't handed down to you from your parents.

I'm pretty sure he's never owned a house at all, because his parents are still using most of it (aside from the basement, which he owns). laugh.gif

Let's get this right; are you saying that the reason you think he's never owned a house is because you think he owns the basement of a house that his parents are occupying? Does that really make any kind of sense to you?
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Ottava
post Thu 24th November 2011, 11:17pm
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QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:33am) *


Do you think Wikipedia is just for students?


I'd rather it be just for students than the current situation where the target audience is apparently sex crazed gay white males (or, at least, gay males turned on by white guys) who want to use the place as a hosting gallery/pick up site.


Thekohser

QUOTE
You appear to assume that no high school students or college "kids" have any intention of entering the home building trade,


.... Um... what?

Why would the page "House" be about the "home building trade"? Why would people in India care about such a thing? Why would that even be "vital" or "encyclopedic"? Do college kids really care about the history of the home building trade and that it would actually help them get involved? Wikipedia isn't a "howto" guide.


QUOTE
. I count among my local "grown up" friends, not one -- but two -- men who went to college and now own their own home construction and remodeling businesses.


You obviously have my personal information, so you would obviously know what business my brother is involved in. And no, he would not find Wikipedia any use in said business. He has actual books and resources, magazines, etc.



Malleus

Don't feed SBJ. Unfortunately, someone got drunk and decided to replace GBG with him. It makes sense since both are unbelievable asses who serve no purpose except to harass people. The problem is, I can no longer ignore him and neither can everyone else. He is a known stalker and yet no one on Wikipedia has a problem with him still being an admin. A Horse lost his ability to edit for doing far, far less than SBJ has done towards myself and others.

This post has been edited by Ottava: Thu 24th November 2011, 11:23pm
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thekohser
post Fri 25th November 2011, 12:03am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 6:17pm) *

Why would the page "House" be about the "home building trade"? Why would people in India care about such a thing?


You're actually serious with these inane questions, aren't you?

Wow.

P.S. I have no idea who your brother is.

P.P.S. Happy Thanksgiving.
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chrisoff
post Fri 25th November 2011, 12:59am
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You can bet that Iridescent (the Arbcom member who was kicked off Arbcom for "inactivity" just recently) is glad he disappeared!

SandyGeorgia, the FAC director, is busy carrying on her raging venomous respond to TCO's "analysis" of FAC to Iridescent's talk page because of the "Waddesdon Road railway station" case study, a critique of the article Iridescent got passed recently in FAC, an example of "Obscure topics getting inadequate content review" at FAC.

QUOTE
*Waddesdon Road railway station” lacks reliable sources.
*Only 5 pages are used to reference the 4 paragraphs of real station-related content. The impression is that these are stray facts from discussion of the Brill Tramway.
*The sources are self-publishing hobbyists.
etc. (from TCO study)


QUOTE
(SandyGeorge post on Iridescent talk page) No, I think it's [[User:TCO|someone else who misses that point]]; it reads like a "Manic Manifesto" from someone who pounded out a pseudoanalysis based on faulty assumptions, ...


(She seems unable just to simply address the issues. Has to attack all critics personally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462203839

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Ottava
post Fri 25th November 2011, 2:25am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 24th November 2011, 7:03pm) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 6:17pm) *

Why would the page "House" be about the "home building trade"? Why would people in India care about such a thing?


You're actually serious with these inane questions, aren't you?

Wow.

P.S. I have no idea who your brother is.



I am serious. The page "house" would be about the ideas of house. Of all the things, the "home building trade" would be the least of things to make it onto the page. The page would most likely be filled with the thousands of -styles- of homes, and then what people would do with them (customs and the like). The history of homes would then come next.

"Home building trade" would be on its own page, and would not be anything of such a high priority. And this is ignoring the idea that a "house" and a "home" are two very different things.

And you did know who my brother was because you made references to him once before.


Topics such as "home building trade" cannot adequately be put into an encyclopedia. There are trade magazines, construction/contractor books, etc. As I pointed out before, Wikipedia is not a howto guide. It is a reference tool.
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thekohser
post Fri 25th November 2011, 5:36am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 9:25pm) *

And you did know who my brother was because you made references to him once before.


I did? Where?

Meanwhile, what do you make of this attempt to make an encyclopedia article about the history of construction? That doesn't belong on Wikipedia, right?

This post has been edited by thekohser: Fri 25th November 2011, 5:52am
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carbuncle
post Fri 25th November 2011, 5:50am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 11:17pm) *

QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:33am) *


Do you think Wikipedia is just for students?


I'd rather it be just for students than the current situation where the target audience is apparently sex crazed gay white males (or, at least, gay males turned on by white guys) who want to use the place as a hosting gallery/pick up site.

I rate this trolling 2 out of 10. For one thing, if you're trying to get people stirred up with your homophobic comments, you're in the wrong place. For another, this reads more like a fantasy of yours than a description of WP.
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Ottava
post Fri 25th November 2011, 6:02am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 25th November 2011, 12:36am) *

QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 9:25pm) *

And you did know who my brother was because you made references to him once before.


I did? Where?

Meanwhile, what do you make of this attempt to make an encyclopedia article about the history of construction? That doesn't belong on Wikipedia, right?


....

How do you get that from me saying that the page -House- shouldn't be deemed "vital"? According to the page you just linked, it is not part of a WikiProject nor ranked as anything. It is also not the page you were talking about before. Also only has 3,318 views.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. o.o;;




Carbuncle

QUOTE

I rate this trolling 2 out of 10. For one thing, if you're trying to get people stirred up with your homophobic comments, you're in the wrong place. For another, this reads more like a fantasy of yours than a description of WP.


Um, how did you miss that it was an obvious reference to the 1,000 images of white penises?

By the way, I think it is kinda amusing that you assume that all homosexuality equal horny white exhibitionists.

This post has been edited by Ottava: Fri 25th November 2011, 6:04am
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carbuncle
post Fri 25th November 2011, 2:25pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 25th November 2011, 6:02am) *

Um, how did you miss that it was an obvious reference to the 1,000 images of white penises?

By the way, I think it is kinda amusing that you assume that all homosexuality equal horny white exhibitionists.
Ooooooooooooooooh, you were making a joke! That might have made more sense if the discussion wasn't explicitly about "Wikipedia", not Commons. I have no idea what you are trying to say in your second sentence.
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chrisoff
post Fri 25th November 2011, 2:45pm
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Some FAC pros are rising to the occasion! At least one contributor of heavy hitting articles, not just trivia are way more open minded than the defensive FAC clique:

User:Truthkeeper88 is replying to TCO in an open minded way! And actually submitted one of her FAC's to an outside expert in the field for her aricle on Edmund Evans and got the response: "My pleasure! Congratulations on your exemplary piece, rich and full." And on her talk page, responds in a way that doesn't shut down the dialogue. Not defensive, not bragging but seeking to understand! Was even willing to interact with TCO when he was posting as an IP.

And others also, were open-minded, willing to consider and engage:

Hurricanehink says "I'll admit, being called a star collector made me more inclined to work on Hurricane Andrew, so for me at least, I welcome some criticism." He was motivated by the critique, not moved to be defensive.

Ceoil engages TCO in a real conversation on TCO's talk page than looks to lead to greater understanding of what is going on. A true exchange of ideas! And Ceoil didn't take TCO labelling him as a "dabbler" as a reason not to take analysis seriously. Rather, he accepted the label with good humour and opened the channels of communication

Hawkeye7 brings up real concerns in an open way, seeking feedback on the FAC talk page.

Carcharoth
(perpetually out grouper among the FAC regulars) brings up concerns about the need for leadership in FAC on the talk page.

Resolute
is offering good suggestions and advice on the FAC talk to reach out to other editors and be helpful to them in their efforts to produce a FA. Attempting to enlarge the small circle. Constructive! A Join Us message!

Perhaps this will be a FAC discussion with a wider group of participants than the usual crowd. New ideas! New blood! Real discussion without defensiveness.

Other signs of hope! TCO did a massive analysis. Good will come if the information can be used dispassionately, if the FAC regulars are willing to interact and don't shut down all chances of real discussion.

*P.S. But SandyGeorgia, don't waste all your energy trying to sandbag TCO and other "enemies" (as you perceive Kiefer.Wolfowitz to be). Like you are now doing by posting on Nikkimaria regarding a DYK request by KW and his post on TCO's page. Drop the stick!

This post has been edited by chrisoff: Fri 25th November 2011, 4:17pm
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