FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2933 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2943 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) Out with Godwin -
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This seems very, very, very, very, very fishy to me.
How does a non-profit 501-c-3 that files a Form 990 intend to keep secret, forever, a severance package for one of the top paid employees of the organization?
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Would being hauled off in an FBI investigation over illegal use of a high-resolution seal of the bureau and/or condoning the Internet hosting of child pornography possibly constitute a "personal matter"?
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 19th October 2010, 12:34pm)
This seems very, very, very, very, very fishy to me.
How does a non-profit 501-c-3 that files a Form 990 intend to keep secret, forever, a severance package for one of the top paid employees of the organization?
What rotten thing is going on here?
I would imagine he knows too much. They don't want the world to know how much they're paying him to go away and never talk. And there's deodorant payments for life. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 19th October 2010, 2:11pm)
Someone pointed out to me the very peculiar characteristic of this line:
"The Wikimedia Foundation believes Mike has always acted in what he believes to be the Wikimedia Foundation’s best interests."
This was probably intended to be the next best thing after "If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all."
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Mike Godwin is probably just enjoying his success as managing director, Mövenpick Ice Cream, if I understand this piece in Eat Out magazine. I know some of you are saying "That's not the same Mike Godwin" (and "That's not how I pictured a magazine named Eat Out"), but check out this quote:
QUOTE
With an array of exquisite flavours, combined with our highly knowledgeable sales team, I'm sure we can continue the positive momentum throughout the Winter period, and capitalise on current consumer trends for premium products.
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QUOTE(NuclearWarfare @ Tue 19th October 2010, 2:37pm)
Quite interesting that they wrote up a Q&A summary that anticipated most of the usual questions. Have they done that before?
I did not heretofore understand that FAQ meant Frequently Avoided Questions.
...and three days notice? WTF?
I'm currently reading an account of the Tlatelolco Massacre of '68. After the event one of the students described the way they read the newspapers as "Why is my government telling me this particular lie at this particular moment?"
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QUOTE
Who will be involved in the hiring process and how will it work?
Alright, so, the thing is, we're going to all put the name of a lawyer that we used to work with into a hat, and then I'm going to randomly pick one of those names out of that hat. This way everything is like totally fair, ya know?
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 7:10am)
QUOTE(NuclearWarfare @ Tue 19th October 2010, 2:37pm)
Quite interesting that they wrote up a Q&A summary that anticipated most of the usual questions. Have they done that before?
I did not heretofore understand that FAQ meant Frequently Avoided Questions.
...and three days notice? WTF?
I'm currently reading an account of the Tlatelolco Massacre of '68. After the event one of the students described the way they read the newspapers as "Why is my government telling me this particular lie at this particular moment?"
3 days notice and a severance package tells me that he was pushed, and pushed hard. And the list of things that are not the reason leave a lot less to speculate on. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wtf.gif)
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Tue 19th October 2010, 2:07pm)
Mike Godwin is probably just enjoying his success as managing director, Mövenpick Ice Cream, if I understand this piece in Eat Out magazine. I know some of you are saying "That's not the same Mike Godwin" (and "That's not how I pictured a magazine named Eat Out"), but check out this quote:
QUOTE
With an array of exquisite flavours, combined with our highly knowledgeable sales team, I'm sure we can continue the positive momentum throughout the Winter period, and capitalise on current consumer trends for premium products.
Call the roller of big cigars, The muscular one, and bid him whip In kitchen cups concupiscent curds. Let the wenches dawdle in such dress As they are used to wear, and let the boys Bring flowers in last month's newspapers. Let be be finale of seem. The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 19th October 2010, 3:34pm)
a severance package for one of the top paid employees of the organization?
I hope it's enough for him to take a long vacation in a pleasant place where he can read printed-on-paper law journals so that he can decompress and reconnect with reality.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 19th October 2010, 12:34pm)
How does a non-profit 501-c-3 that files a Form 990 intend to keep secret, forever, a severance package for one of the top paid employees of the organization?
Don't quote me on this one, as I haven't researched it, but I believe that only "normal" compensation is required to be included on a 990. It could be that they have interpreted a termination "settlement" as something other than that. Also, if he was neither an officer or one of the five most highly paid employees, then he won't be there either.
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QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 19th October 2010, 4:40pm)
meh ... sounds like he got laid off - fired without cause.
That's the official line, of course. But the reality is that he was shoved out the door for being incompatible with Sue's vision of what Wikimedia is about.
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next. He's pretty much the last of "Jimmy's people" (defined as people who were part of the Foundation before Sue came along). Jimmy himself better be watching his back; it's a matter of time before Sue and Company decide that he, too, is redundant.
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 5:20pm)
QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 19th October 2010, 4:40pm)
meh ... sounds like he got laid off - fired without cause.
That's the official line, of course. But the reality is that he was shoved out the door for being incompatible with Sue's vision of what Wikimedia is about.
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next. He's pretty much the last of "Jimmy's people" (defined as people who were part of the Foundation before Sue came along). Jimmy himself better be watching his back; it's a matter of time before Sue and Company decide that he, too, is redundant.
My hope is that this is a move away from FreeKulture. Not only will this open up the possibility of acting in a more responsible manner but strained relations might make FK and the tech press less likely to circle the wagons the next time WP steps in something nasty. Yep, could be Erik next.
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 4:20pm)
QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 19th October 2010, 4:40pm)
meh ... sounds like he got laid off - fired without cause.
That's the official line, of course. But the reality is that he was shoved out the door for being incompatible with Sue's vision of what Wikimedia is about.
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next. He's pretty much the last of "Jimmy's people" (defined as people who were part of the Foundation before Sue came along). Jimmy himself better be watching his back; it's a matter of time before Sue and Company decide that he, too, is redundant.
Indeed. In a sense, you pay taxes (whether on income or property) as the price of having the government recognize you as the OWNER, with owners' rights (or at least title rights). If you don't pay the taxes, you don't get that.
By refusing to own anything you can escape both taxes and legal risk (the risk of lawsuit from an unrelated civil suit back in 2001 apprently being ultimately why Jimmy does not own Wikipedia today).
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QUOTE
Why is Mike leaving the Wikimedia Foundation?
Mike leaving the Wikimedia Foundation is a confidential issue, and the Wikimedia Foundation doesn’t talk about confidential personnel issues with anyone except the people directly involved. We want to handle this kind of thing with respect for people’s privacy and dignity, and we are hopeful we can do that in this instance. That means, we’re not going to answer this question, and we hope you will understand why.
That says to me "fired, but we gave him a settlement in return for his silence".
The usual mantra is "mutual agreement" or "personal reasons" but this says "personnel", which looks to me like "fired for cause".
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 19th October 2010, 7:53pm)
I would imagine he knows too much. They don't want the world know know how much they're paying him, to go away and never talk.
Ja, that was my thought as well.
QUOTE
> I like Mike, and I know that it’s a tough economy. Can I ask what the > Wikimedia Foundation is doing to ensure that Mike is okay while he > figures out his next steps? > > Yes. The Wikimedia Foundation and Mike have figured out severance that > we all hope will protect Mike and give him time to think about what he > wants to do next. The terms of the severance are confidential: we > won’t talk about them now, or in the future. But you can rest assured > that the Wikimedia Foundation wants to see Mike continue working to > advance people’s online freedoms: everybody would like to see him > continue making an important contribution.
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 11:20pm)
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next. He's pretty much the last of "Jimmy's people" (defined as people who were part of the Foundation before Sue came along). Jimmy himself better be watching his back; it's a matter of time before Sue and Company decide that he, too, is redundant.
Quite a change from your previous position that Jimbo has the ultimate power to do whatever he wants. When did your opinion on this change, around the time of the departure of Cary Bass?
In any case, I think Erik would be far too happy to finally "vote Jimmy off the island" to call him one of "Jimmy's people".
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QUOTE(anthony @ Wed 20th October 2010, 12:03am)
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 11:20pm)
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next. He's pretty much the last of "Jimmy's people" (defined as people who were part of the Foundation before Sue came along). Jimmy himself better be watching his back; it's a matter of time before Sue and Company decide that he, too, is redundant.
Quite a change from your previous position that Jimbo has the ultimate power to do whatever he wants. When did your opinion on this change, around the time of the departure of Cary Bass?
In any case, I think Erik would be far too happy to finally "vote Jimmy off the island" to call him one of "Jimmy's people".
Jimbo once violated the security of a WMF board election in progress, and based on what he found tried to derail Erik's candidacy. The subsequent election had to be held on an outside server operated by another foundation.
Jimbo used to have the ultimate power at Wikipedia. What he said happened. That's all changed. The only real power he has now is what can be derived from WMF board politics. All his "GodKing" power is slowly but surely slipping away. Other than that, he just gets to hang around, collect speaking fees, and promise people "I'll look into it".
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The facts are a little sketchy, but as best I can determine, it looks like Mike simply refused to take the "standard offer."
I guess it's possible that they had to oust him because after all this time, he finally got around to reading a legal textbook and realized that what the WMF does has been utterly illegal all along...
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 6:20pm)
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next.
Maybe. It's just a hunch, but my guess is that Mr. Moeller was the "prime mover" in ousting Mr. Godwin. (He's a sneaky guy, that Erik!)
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QUOTE(anthony @ Tue 19th October 2010, 7:33pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 1:28am)
Mod Note: Moved OT tax stuff to the lounge.
You missed one, the first one.
This one? I thought Milton hadn't completely went off the OT rails just yet. Also left one by CW that was "mixed." Moving is bad enough but splitting a post gets the locals all upset.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Tue 19th October 2010, 6:54pm)
The facts are a little sketchy, but as best I can determine, it looks like Mike simply refused to take the "standard offer."
I guess it's possible that they had to oust him because after all this time, he finally got around to reading a legal textbook and realized that what the WMF does has been utterly illegal all along...
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Tue 19th October 2010, 6:20pm)
It'll be interesting whether Erik gets shoved next.
Maybe. It's just a hunch, but my guess is that Mr. Moeller was the "prime mover" in ousting Mr. Godwin. (He's a sneaky guy, that Erik!)
I'm intrigued but not seeing it. What might be the nature of the Godwin/Moeller rift?
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 1:39am)
This one? I thought Milton hadn't completely went off the OT rails just yet. Also left one by CW that was "mixed." Moving is bad enough but splitting a post gets the locals all upset.
I should start keeping track of how many thread splits I'm blamed for.
QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 19th October 2010, 11:18pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 19th October 2010, 12:34pm)
How does a non-profit 501-c-3 that files a Form 990 intend to keep secret, forever, a severance package for one of the top paid employees of the organization?
Don't quote me on this one, as I haven't researched it, but I believe that only "normal" compensation is required to be included on a 990. It could be that they have interpreted a termination "settlement" as something other than that. Also, if he was neither an officer or one of the five most highly paid employees, then he won't be there either.
I'm surprised they don't pose as a "faith-based organization" and claim exemption from filing that. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fsm.gif)
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You all missed a little item in that announcement:
QUOTE
Once a candidate pool is developed, interviews will be held. The interviewing process will likely include at a minimum Sue Gardner, Erik Moeller, Cyn Skyberg, Kat Walsh, Arne Klempert, and Barry Newstead. There will probably also be others involved (e.g., possibly additional board members, and possibly additional members of the senior staff), but that’s the skeleton plan we have right now.
That's likely to be a list of WMF's highest holy epopts. Cross one of them, and kiss your ass goodbye.
And no doubt the politics between them are getting quite toxic right now. I would not be surprised to see either Moeller or Newstead pushed out next.
Ms. Gardner is a toxic, evil woman--or so the scuttlebutt has been claiming. Dunno myself, but she is clearly a manipulative creature.
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I just checked in on this thread, and was amazed to discover that an old familiar name, one Samuel Klein, was reading it. (He has a WR account but has never said anything.)
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 20th October 2010, 1:19am)
I just checked in on this thread, and was amazed to discover that an old familiar name, one Samuel Klein, was reading it. (He has a WR account but has never said anything.)
Well, Master Klein? Would you care to comment?
Is that Sj the good admin of the North, as opposed to Essjay the bad admin of the East? Now that somebody has accidently dropped a house on SV, the Wicked Witch of the West?
I want to know about the bubble around Sj that keeps him from seeing that his WP policy is actually controlled by a bunch of flying monkeys and assorted munchkins. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif)
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 20th October 2010, 4:19am)
I just checked in on this thread, and was amazed to discover that an old familiar name, one Samuel Klein, was reading it. (He has a WR account but has never said anything.)
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QUOTE(anthony @ Tue 19th October 2010, 7:03pm)
In any case, I think Erik would be far too happy to finally "vote Jimmy off the island" to call him one of "Jimmy's people".
Oh, I don't think of Erik as one of "Jimmy's People", but I bet Sue does. Sue is building an empire, and one of the rules of building a empire is that you purge everyone who isn't One Of Your People. It's possible that Erik has brownnosed Sue enough for Sue to think of him as one of her people, but I kinda doubt it.
This isn't about Jimmy vs. Sue, it's about Sue vs. Everyone Else. To her, Erik is nothing more than a tool, to be used as long as he remains useful, certainly, but he will be discarded the moment she has no further use for him. Or even as soon as some old crony of hers shows up wanting Erik's job.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 20th October 2010, 8:30am)
QUOTE(Emperor @ Wed 20th October 2010, 9:00am)
If nothing else, Mr. Godwin will be remembered as the genius who somehow finagled the switch from GFDL to CC-by-SA.
I don't consider him the agent of change on that item. I believe Moeller was the perpetrator of that sham.
Fundamentally that was driven by Larry Lessig, who is far more charismatic than either Eben Moglen or Richard Stallman. Both Erik and Jimmy pushed that to please their Very Bestest Friend, Larry. Besides, Eben and Richard mostly hang out with boring, smelly hacker types; the people Larry hangs with are far more interesting, or at least famous.
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 19th October 2010, 6:35pm)
My hope is that this is a move away from FreeKulture. Not only will this open up the possibility of acting in a more responsible manner but strained relations might make FK and the tech press less likely to circle the wagons the next time WP steps in something nasty. Yep, could be Erik next.
That could happen, but there's no reason to believe it will. Sue's only interest in governing Wikimedia as her personal fiefdom is going to be in maintaining revenue. While I don't believe she has any real commitment to FreeKulture the way Moeller does, at the same time she probably believes that many of her donors do, and so she will not actively encourage any change on this front. Absent Moeller's influence, I suspect Wikimedia would move away from its current positions on such matters only in a piecemeal fashion, as specific incidents lead to ad hoc edicts necessary to keep specific donors happy.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 20th October 2010, 7:30am)
QUOTE(Emperor @ Wed 20th October 2010, 9:00am)
If nothing else, Mr. Godwin will be remembered as the genius who somehow finagled the switch from GFDL to CC-by-SA.
I don't consider him the agent of change on that item. I believe Moeller was the perpetrator of that sham.
Well whoever it was established once and for all the free licenses are a farce and once you release material on them anyone can do anything they want and the grantor of the license is powerless to do anything about it. The only thing accomplished was to genuflect to Stallman sufficiently to stop him from running his mouth against the change.
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 11:36am)
Well whoever it was established once and for all the free licenses are a farce and once you release material on them anyone can do anything they want and the grantor of the license is powerless to do anything about it.
In my opinion, this is one of the most significant moments in Wikipedia's history. I'd be interested to hear what Mr. Godwin has to say about it once some time has passed.
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Wed 20th October 2010, 12:54am)
QUOTE
Why is Mike leaving the Wikimedia Foundation?
Mike leaving the Wikimedia Foundation is a confidential issue, and the Wikimedia Foundation doesn’t talk about confidential personnel issues with anyone except the people directly involved. We want to handle this kind of thing with respect for people’s privacy and dignity, and we are hopeful we can do that in this instance. That means, we’re not going to answer this question, and we hope you will understand why.
That says to me "fired, but we gave him a settlement in return for his silence".
The usual mantra is "mutual agreement" or "personal reasons" but this says "personnel", which looks to me like "fired for cause".
Or it could be they meant 'personal issues' but messed up the spelling, which is always possible in Wikipedian matters.
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 20th October 2010, 10:54am)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 19th October 2010, 6:35pm)
My hope is that this is a move away from FreeKulture. Not only will this open up the possibility of acting in a more responsible manner but strained relations might make FK and the tech press less likely to circle the wagons the next time WP steps in something nasty. Yep, could be Erik next.
That could happen, but there's no reason to believe it will. Sue's only interest in governing Wikimedia as her personal fiefdom is going to be in maintaining revenue. While I don't believe she has any real commitment to FreeKulture the way Moeller does, at the same time she probably believes that many of her donors do, and so she will not actively encourage any change on this front. Absent Moeller's influence, I suspect Wikimedia would move away from its current positions on such matters only in a piecemeal fashion, as specific incidents lead to ad hoc edicts necessary to keep specific donors happy.
Meow! Pfft! Pffffft!
When does Sue have to go through re-election/re-rubberstamping?
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 20th October 2010, 6:42pm)
When does Sue have to go through re-election/re-rubberstamping?
As far as I know she serves at the pleasure of the Board and has no specific review or reappointment process. I've also heard rumors that she has a golden parachute clause in her contract that would make it quite expensive to fire her other than for cause.
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 3:36pm)
Well whoever it was established once and for all the free licenses are a farce and once you release material on them anyone can do anything they want and the grantor of the license is powerless to do anything about it. The only thing accomplished was to genuflect to Stallman sufficiently to stop him from running his mouth against the change.
Well, I wouldn't go that far: the grantors are powerless not because of the license terms, but because they lack access to the necessary legal resources.
Wikimedia could use some of its N million dollars to protect it's volunteers efforts -- especially in egregious cases involving particularly high value contributions. Just a few cases to set an example would be sufficient. But as far as anyone has been able to determine (cf. almost any action, or inaction, they take), the WMF doesn't give a shit about editors, beyond what they can contribute.
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QUOTE(taiwopanfob @ Wed 20th October 2010, 9:55pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 3:36pm)
Well whoever it was established once and for all the free licenses are a farce and once you release material on them anyone can do anything they want and the grantor of the license is powerless to do anything about it. The only thing accomplished was to genuflect to Stallman sufficiently to stop him from running his mouth against the change.
Well, I wouldn't go that far: the grantors are powerless not because of the license terms, but because they lack access to the necessary legal resources.
Wikimedia could use some of its N million dollars to protect it's volunteers efforts -- especially in egregious cases involving particularly high value contributions. Just a few cases to set an example would be sufficient. But as far as anyone has been able to determine (cf. almost any action, or inaction, they take), the WMF doesn't give a shit about editors, beyond what they can contribute.
Dude, the guy who wrote the license (Stallman) traded off their (supposed) rights like he was party himself.
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Wed 20th October 2010, 6:56pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 20th October 2010, 11:36am)
Well whoever it was established once and for all the free licenses are a farce and once you release material on them anyone can do anything they want and the grantor of the license is powerless to do anything about it.
In my opinion, this is one of the most significant moments in Wikipedia's history. I'd be interested to hear what Mr. Godwin has to say about it once some time has passed.
If Steve Ballmer can be egged because, as I understand it, Microsoft charges students for software in Hungary:
wherever and whenever they show their miserable faces in public. For the remainder of their lives, long they may be.
What they did was absolutely reprehensible, beyond the pale. It showed the true colors of these so-called leaders of Free Culture, demonstrated with total clarity their fundamental lack of respect for the content creators.
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QUOTE
If nothing else, Mr. Godwin will be remembered as the genius who somehow finagled the switch from GFDL to CC-by-SA.
Fair Use kills any kind of free license. If i am in USA, i can take just about anything and pretend to use it under the concept of Fair Use and Fair Dealing, why bother with licenses? Almost no one would abide by them and in any case it's all reduced to a person name, if not a website name ("this photo comes from site X" and that's about it for license compliance), thanks to the latest CC versions.
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QUOTE(Text @ Thu 21st October 2010, 7:35pm)
QUOTE
If nothing else, Mr. Godwin will be remembered as the genius who somehow finagled the switch from GFDL to CC-by-SA.
Fair Use kills any kind of free license. If i am in USA, i can take just about anything and pretend to use it under the concept of Fair Use and Fair Dealing, why bother with licenses? Almost no one would abide by them and in any case it's all reduced to a person name, if not a website name ("this photo comes from site X" and that's about it for license compliance), thanks to the latest CC versions.
What are you saying? That the vast majority of Wikipedians do not understand the legal conditions in which they contribute content?
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Fri 22nd October 2010, 1:44pm)
QUOTE(Text @ Thu 21st October 2010, 7:35pm)
QUOTE
If nothing else, Mr. Godwin will be remembered as the genius who somehow finagled the switch from GFDL to CC-by-SA.
Fair Use kills any kind of free license. If i am in USA, i can take just about anything and pretend to use it under the concept of Fair Use and Fair Dealing, why bother with licenses? Almost no one would abide by them and in any case it's all reduced to a person name, if not a website name ("this photo comes from site X" and that's about it for license compliance), thanks to the latest CC versions.
What are you saying? That the vast majority of Wikipedians do not understand the legal conditions in which they contribute content?
Probably very little of the articles are copyrightable on wikipedia. If it is plain facts they can't be copyrighted anyway. Most of the prose is plagiarized from elsewhere so they won't get copyright on that, then it gets micro tweaked with numerous de minimus word changes, sentence reorganisations, and punctuation changes, and you rarely get to claim copyright on a spelling fix, or comma insertion.
The copyrightable stuff on wikipedia mainly exists in the talk pages, the trolls, and the vandalisms.
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What, no photos of the office despedida festivities?
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QUOTE
The copyrightable stuff on wikipedia mainly exists in the talk pages, the trolls, and the vandalisms.
That's correct. And the main reason for a lot of people (the majority, since Awbrey, Kohs, Cool3 and others made of similar material are booted rapidly) to edit is to introduce some kind of funny bullshit which may be equivalent to "trolling", and the whole chemical component is known as "lulz". (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)
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QUOTE(Text @ Sun 24th October 2010, 1:33pm)
QUOTE
Hmmmmm....
Do you disagree on something that has been said, or are you skeptic of the fact that F bemolle is equivalent to E?
Well, I don't have my glasses on so I'm not sure what your post says but I do see that there is a question mark at the end.
I am just reading over the thread again. It's a strange way to fire someone, and there's no question that's what it is. It's hard to put a severance package together in 3 days. My initial thought is that Sue really wants him gone immediately but the Foundation needs Godwin to turn over all of his messes to the new guy so the Foundation's 12MM bank account isnt up for grabs. Sounds to me like they 're paying him to be a consultant, and I bet they're paying him a nice amount because he's probabably pissed enough to walk off and let them drown in their own feces. Maybe a non-disclosure agreement about the circumstances of the termination -- everything else would pretty much be covered by the attorney-client privilege, and he can't disclose it anyway unless it's some sort of whistleblower scenario. I'm interested to see how this one turns out.
I was intrigued by the way Godwin handled the FBI seal inquiry and thought it was incredibly foolish and risky to taunt the Feds with a letter that read like an ANI argument. I mean, doesnt everyone know the Feds are vindictive and they'll find a reason to make life miserable if you get their attention? I don't know if that has anything to do with this termination, but reading between the lines, the comment about Godwin doing what he thought was in WMF's best interest (read, Godwin's judgment sucks) -- that could apply to the way he handled the FBI sitch. There are probably others if that is the way Godwin goes about practicing law..
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QUOTE(Minor4th @ Sun 24th October 2010, 3:09pm)
I was intrigued by the way Godwin handled the FBI seal inquiry and thought it was incredibly foolish and risky to taunt the Feds with a letter that read like an ANI argument. I mean, doesnt everyone know the Feds are vindictive and they'll find a reason to make life miserable if you get their attention? I don't know if that has anything to do with this termination, but reading between the lines, the comment about Godwin doing what he thought was in WMF's best interest (read, Godwin's judgment sucks) -- that could apply to the way he handled the FBI sitch. There are probably others if that is the way Godwin goes about practicing law..
Indeed. When a lawyer starts sounding like a wikilawyer in "#real_life" situations, he should probably stay away from the bar and/or any keyboard that's connected to a modem.
I hope our resident lawyers won't be tempted to say yes to an inside hire, because that way lies a dead end.
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sun 24th October 2010, 12:35pm)
QUOTE(Minor4th @ Sun 24th October 2010, 3:09pm)
I was intrigued by the way Godwin handled the FBI seal inquiry and thought it was incredibly foolish and risky to taunt the Feds with a letter that read like an ANI argument. I mean, doesnt everyone know the Feds are vindictive and they'll find a reason to make life miserable if you get their attention? I don't know if that has anything to do with this termination, but reading between the lines, the comment about Godwin doing what he thought was in WMF's best interest (read, Godwin's judgment sucks) -- that could apply to the way he handled the FBI sitch. There are probably others if that is the way Godwin goes about practicing law..
Indeed. When a lawyer starts sounding like a wikilawyer in "#real_life" situations, he should probably stay away from the bar and/or any keyboard that's connected to a modem.
I hope our resident lawyers won't be tempted to say yes to an inside hire, because that way lies a dead end.
Our resident lawyers are plenty smart enough to know that.
If the FBI matter was part of it, Godwin was ill-used, since I doubt he did anything without consulting Sue. She probably asked him if the law was on WMF's side and he told her it was, and she then said: "Good, because we don't take down anything we don't absolutely have to." So he asked what he should do, and she probably told him to point out the law to the FBI. Which he did. If there were any repercussions, I imagine them sort of like this:
Sue: "Mike, I hear the FBI is really mad at us, now!"
Godwin: "Well, I don't know why. I just pointed out that the law is aimed at reproducing I.D. cards and such.."
Sue: "But you didn't have to be so condescending while doing it. I know I laughed at the letter before you sent it, but I'm not a lawyer. You're supposed to be wiser in these matters. Now they'll think that being snide, is insulting to them personally."
Godwin: "It's not. Lawyers do this all the time and don't take it personally. At the FBI they're big boys and can tell the difference between making fun of an idea and making fun of the people who believe the idea..."
Sue: "You don't know your history! Do you know Galileo attacked the ideas of some high-up Roman Catholic Church people, and they held that he was attacking the church itself?"
Godwin: "What do I care what the Catholic Church did?"
Sue: "The Catholic Church speaks for the views of God Almighty. So obviously God thinks this way, too."
Godwin: "Er, you know I'm Jewish, don't you?"
Sue: "Speaking of which! If your people weren't always making snarky and legalistic arguments to put people down, maybe a lot fewer of them would have wound up in prison camps. Ever thought of that?"
I was intrigued by the way Godwin handled the FBI seal inquiry and thought it was incredibly foolish and risky to taunt the Feds with a letter that read like an ANI argument. I mean, doesnt everyone know the Feds are vindictive and they'll find a reason to make life miserable if you get their attention? I don't know if that has anything to do with this termination, but reading between the lines, the comment about Godwin doing what he thought was in WMF's best interest (read, Godwin's judgment sucks) — that could apply to the way he handled the FBI sitch. There are probably others if that is the way Godwin goes about practicing law …
Indeed. When a lawyer starts sounding like a wikilawyer in "#real_life" situations, he should probably stay away from the bar and/or any keyboard that's connected to a modem.
I hope our resident lawyers won't be tempted to say yes to an inside hire, because that way lies a dead end.
Our resident lawyers are plenty smart enough to know that.
If the FBI matter was part of it, Godwin was ill-used, since I doubt he did anything without consulting Sue. She probably asked him if the law was on WMF's side and he told her it was, and she then said: "Good, because we don't take down anything we don't absolutely have to." So he asked what he should do, and she probably told him to point out the law to the FBI. Which he did. If there were any repercussions, I imagine them sort of like this:
Sue: "Mike, I hear the FBI is really mad at us, now!"
Godwin: "Well, I don't know why. I just pointed out that the law is aimed at reproducing I.D. cards and such.."
Sue: "But you didn't have to be so condescending while doing it. I know I laughed at the letter before you sent it, but I'm not a lawyer. You're supposed to be wiser in these matters. Now they'll think that being snide, is insulting to them personally."
Godwin: "It's not. Lawyers do this all the time and don't take it personally. At the FBI they're big boys and can tell the difference between making fun of an idea and making fun of the people who believe the idea..."
Sue: "You don't know your history! Do you know Galileo attacked the ideas of some high-up Roman Catholic Church people, and they held that he was attacking the church itself?"
Godwin: "What do I care what the Catholic Church did?"
Sue: "The Catholic Church speaks for the views of God Almighty. So obviously God thinks this way, too."
Godwin: "Er, you know I'm Jewish, don't you?"
Sue: "Speaking of which! If your people weren't always making snarky and legalistic arguments to put people down, maybe a lot fewer of them would have wound up in prison camps. Ever thought of that?"
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 24th October 2010, 3:27pm)
[ Our resident lawyers are plenty smart enough to know that.
If the FBI matter was part of it, Godwin was ill-used, since I doubt he did anything without consulting Sue. She probably asked him if the law was on WMF's side and he told her it was, and she then said: "Good, because we don't take down anything we don't absolutely have to." So he asked what he should do, and she probably told him to point out the law to the FBI. Which he did. If there were any repercussions, I imagine them sort of like this: <snip>
But the thing is Godwin got the law wrong, and he was wrong in such an unprofessional, arrogant, ridiculous sounding piece of bravado -- so that makes his wrong-ness monumental and spectacular (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)
If Sue has the bad judgment to think Godwin can school the FBI on the law, then she deserves to reap whatever Godwin has sown.
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QUOTE(Minor4th @ Sun 24th October 2010, 5:57pm)
But the thing is Godwin got the law wrong, and he was wrong in such an unprofessional, arrogant, ridiculous sounding piece of bravado -- so that makes his wrong-ness monumental and spectacular (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)
If Sue has the bad judgment to think Godwin can school the FBI on the law, then she deserves to reap whatever Godwin has sown.
Sure, deserves. Lots of people deserve things. But going with this plausible theory, she now realizes she was wrong, and this would help explain the mutual interest in shutting up about circumstances. I think the "tell" will be in their reaction to the next similar controversy - something someone might consider helping happen, at the appropriate time.
As first noted by examiner.com, in terms of questions about the financial consequences of Godwin's severance, Gardner had another cryptic answer at the ready (when you consider that the majority of Wikimedia's pay numbers are disclosed publicly each year in a detailed Form 990 filed with the IRS):
The terms of the severance are confidential: we won’t talk about them now, or in the future.
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Can anyone confirm that the pay off came directly from Jimbo, and not the Wikimedia Foundation, so that it wont appear on the books ... and hence the NDA ?
I mean, I have no idea if the guy is a gentleman but he does know a whole load of shit about Wales and the operation.
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QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Tue 26th October 2010, 12:02pm)
Can anyone confirm that the pay off came directly from Jimbo, and not the Wikimedia Foundation, so that it wont appear on the books ... and hence the NDA ?
I mean, I have no idea if the guy is a gentleman but he does know a whole load of shit about Wales and the operation.
If you think Jimbo would pay off someone out of his OWN POCKET, unless it was a bribe to keep quiet about something illegal that Jimbo had done, then you might as well call for a pig-flying festival tomorrow, too.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 27th October 2010, 4:57am)
QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Tue 26th October 2010, 12:02pm)
Can anyone confirm that the pay off came directly from Jimbo, and not the Wikimedia Foundation, so that it wont appear on the books ... and hence the NDA ?
I mean, I have no idea if the guy is a gentleman but he does know a whole load of shit about Wales and the operation.
If you think Jimbo would pay off someone out of his OWN POCKET, unless it was a bribe to keep quiet about something illegal that Jimbo had done, then you might as well call for a pig-flying festival tomorrow, too.
And where does this notion of Jimbo "paying off" Godwin himself come from? It might be necessary to strike that one - it's one thing to accuse Jimbo of malfeasance, it's another to accuse Jimbo of malfeasance that doesn't even advance his personal interests.
Long story short, I think the basic reason for easing Godwin out of the WMF is that he's too visible. Sue and Erik don't like competition any more than Jimbo does, and they all know that virtually nothing they do can hold up under any sort of public scrutiny whatsoever. They want the attention focused on them, personally, not on what the WMF actually does, most of which is indefensible. Having Godwin around was probably a major impediment to achieving that ideal situation.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Wed 27th October 2010, 4:08am)
Sue and Erik don't like competition any more than Jimbo does, and they all know that virtually nothing they do can hold up under any sort of public scrutiny whatsoever.
Therefore you are saying that Godwin was the good guy and they want a new counsel who is impressed and beholden to them? "Their Team"?
My source ... it could have just been someone's speculative gossip as to what the terms of the NDA was for all I know which is why I passed it by the experts.
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QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Tue 26th October 2010, 12:02pm)
Can anyone confirm that the pay off came directly from Jimbo, and not the Wikimedia Foundation, so that it wont appear on the books ... and hence the NDA ?
I mean, I have no idea if the guy is a gentleman but he does know a whole load of shit about Wales and the operation.
As Minor 4th pointed out earlier, his hands are tied on the actual legal stuff due to attorney-client privileges. OTOH, he probably knows all sorts of gossip they'd rather not have people know about.
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QUOTE(Minor4th @ Sun 24th October 2010, 7:09pm)
Sounds to me like they 're paying him to be a consultant, and I bet they're paying him a nice amount because he's probabably pissed enough to walk off and let them drown in their own feces.
Do you think they 're paying him MORE to be a consultant?
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Has anyone considered the possibility that Godwin decided to leave of his accord? Perhaps for "personnel" reasons?
Since we're speculating here, maybe he saw something coming down the pike that he didn't want to be around for or be associated with? Perhaps being the WMF's lawyer isn't such a great gig when they get successfully sued or stripped of their charity status? Not that I think either of those is likely to happen, but those were the only examples that sprang to mind.
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QUOTE(carbuncle @ Wed 27th October 2010, 11:54am)
Has anyone considered the possibility that Godwin decided to leave of his accord? Perhaps for "personnel" reasons?
Since we're speculating here, maybe he saw something coming down the pike that he didn't want to be around for or be associated with? Perhaps being the WMF's lawyer isn't such a great gig when they get successfully sued or stripped of their charity status? Not that I think either of those is likely to happen, but those were the only examples that sprang to mind.
That was my first consideration.
But, then I don't think he would have agreed to the wording of Gardner's posting. In fact, he would have probably insisted on as tersely-worded and uninformative a note as possible.
Because if you read between the lines and see how Gardner positioned the whole thing as being more Godwin's "fault" than the WMF's "fault", I think this was an unanticipated departure for Godwin.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 27th October 2010, 11:16am)
QUOTE(carbuncle @ Wed 27th October 2010, 11:54am)
Has anyone considered the possibility that Godwin decided to leave of his accord? Perhaps for "personnel" reasons?
Since we're speculating here, maybe he saw something coming down the pike that he didn't want to be around for or be associated with? Perhaps being the WMF's lawyer isn't such a great gig when they get successfully sued or stripped of their charity status? Not that I think either of those is likely to happen, but those were the only examples that sprang to mind.
That was my first consideration.
But, then I don't think he would have agreed to the wording of Gardner's posting. In fact, he would have probably insisted on as tersely-worded and uninformative a note as possible.
Because if you read between the lines and see how Gardner positioned the whole thing as being more Godwin's "fault" than the WMF's "fault", I think this was an unanticipated departure for Godwin.
No doubt about it, Sue's chirpy, vague and quite possibly passive-aggressive "Q&A" raises more questions than it answers. The rules of client confidentiality coupled with the natural interests of both the WMF and Godwin to kept quiet as to the true cause for his dismissal make it unlikely that we will ever know what really happened, unless someone says more than they would normally intend in an unguarded moment (always a possibility given this clown college roster). Even then, I would expect the glimpse at the truth to be a limited one.
While we are speculating as to the real reason, no need to leave out Godwin's reputation for prickliness. If Kelly Martin has him right (and I suspect she does), Godwin is thin-skinned and has a terrible temper. He may have finally wrote a check with his mouth that only a boot to his ass could cash. That would go a long way toward explaining Sue's precipitous and oddly phrased announcement.
Another possibility to consider is a common enough reason that attorneys get fired: he spoke a truth to his client that his client was not prepared to hear. When this is the cause for dismissal, it often comes as a relief to both attorney and client, albeit for different reasons.
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I've heard it also theorized that perhaps Godwin and someone with influence in the WMF (probably either a majority of the board or Gardner) disagreed on a new strategy. (Could it be how to manage that troublesome public pornography collection, perhaps?) Godwin then may have refused to yield and Sue was forced to fire him, without cause. Since it would be without cause, and his contract probably did not allow him to be fired without cause without a significant payoff, his new "consulting fee" period of engagement might very well be substantially more lucrative than his previous base salary.
I think this is as plausible a speculation as any we've heard.
[3:41pm] MC8: QUESTION: How did you get into law in the first place? Was it an ambition, or was it more along the lines of "sounded good at the time"?
[3:45pm] mnemonic1: MC8, i used to do computer sales and support. i decided i was smarter than the lawyers i was supporting. so i went to law school. then it turned out my background left me peculiarly prepared for internet law
QUOTE
[3:45pm] effeietsanders: mnemonic1: can you give an estimate of how much work you can do yourself and how much you "outsource" ?
[3:46pm] mnemonic1: effietsanders, i do 100 percent of my work, and outside lawyers do 100 percent of the work i give them.
[3:46pm] effeietsanders: whatever... [3:46pm] effeietsanders left the chat room.
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Do recall that Godwin made quite a few enemies in the Kommunity when he upbraided the ArbCom for publicly libeling David Gerard. While I don't think those chickens coming home to roost are enough to push him out the door, they could well have been some of the the thousand papercuts. (Yes, I'm overdrawn at the metaphor bank.)
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Just a few "interesting" items in the past, that I'd like to point out.
First, Mike's RfA. Most people said "of course he should have admin powers!!", but some pissants objected--including, amusingly enough, Risker. Then Anthere swoops in and forces the end of the debate.
Then, a fewexamplesof disputes or other nastiness somehow involving Mike.
That suicide threat was especially "amusing"--Alison took action, whilst the mighty Mike chose to do nothing, until Alison called him. On the phone. The rest of the AN/I nerds did nothing but squabble.
After looking at a lot of mentions of him in the WP database, I have to say that he was invoked in an endless number of disputes, mostly involving copyright/fair use or legal threats. But I saw very little evidence that he actually acted on very many of those issues. I can't count the number of "Has anybody called Mike Godwin?" comments, with little or no evidence they actually called him, nor that he did anything......
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QUOTE(Cock-up-over-conspiracy @ Wed 27th October 2010, 10:29am)
QUOTE(Minor4th @ Sun 24th October 2010, 7:09pm)
Sounds to me like they 're paying him to be a consultant, and I bet they're paying him a nice amount because he's probabably pissed enough to walk off and let them drown in their own feces.
Do you think they 're paying him MORE to be a consultant?
No clue what he was being paid as general counsel, and I use the word "consultant" very loosely. I think they arranged for a very swift departure, but they need him for the transition. And Godwin needs to continue to make a living while he looks for another job -- i'd guess he 's being paid 80 or so percent of his salary while he remains available and behaves himself until he is phased out completely. Im sure his access to files and so forth is limited and he's not provided an office onsite, nor permitted to be present at the WMF offices without an escort.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 3rd November 2010, 6:55pm)
QUOTE(Minor4th @ Wed 3rd November 2010, 7:05pm)
No clue what he was being paid as general counsel...
This information is publicly available in the organization's Form 990.
The only person on last year's Schedule J was Sue Gardner. Other "salaries" must be hidden as other types of expenses. Godwin certainly isn't (wasn't) a salaried employee.
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In case anyone is interested, it seems that someone named Michelle Paulson is filling in for the Godwin-less WMF these days, when it comes to the legal heavy lifting. Here's her LinkedIn profile.
QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 14th December 2010, 11:41pm)
In case anyone is interested, it seems that someone named Michelle Paulson is filling in for the Godwin-less WMF these days, when it comes to the legal heavy lifting. Here's her LinkedIn profile.
QUOTE
Currently drafting original trademark license agreements for television, movie, and printed media use of Wikimedia trademarks, especially the Wikipedia trademark. Establishing online trademark licensing procedure. Drafting multi-party memorandums of understanding for trial manufacture and distribution of Wikipedia products in Europe and Latin America. Drafting and coordinating partnership agreements, software development and support agreements, manufacturing agreements, distribution agreements, preferred vendor agreements, and trademark and brand licensing for Wikimedia product development.
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Tue 14th December 2010, 11:52pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 14th December 2010, 11:41pm)
In case anyone is interested, it seems that someone named Michelle Paulson is filling in for the Godwin-less WMF these days, when it comes to the legal heavy lifting. Here's her LinkedIn profile.
QUOTE
Currently drafting original trademark license agreements for television, movie, and printed media use of Wikimedia trademarks, especially the Wikipedia trademark. Establishing online trademark licensing procedure. Drafting multi-party memorandums of understanding for trial manufacture and distribution of Wikipedia products in Europe and Latin America. Drafting and coordinating partnership agreements, software development and support agreements, manufacturing agreements, distribution agreements, preferred vendor agreements, and trademark and brand licensing for Wikimedia product development.
It's a good thing she is tech savvy. Based on that profile it is likely that she will need Google Maps to find the courthouse. When I saw Community Legal Services I though "Well cool, at least she has represented clients in court." But the description seems like not even that. Maybe California doesn't have a student practice act.
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 15th December 2010, 5:31am)
It's a good thing she is tech savvy. Based on that profile it is likely that she will need Google Maps to find the courthouse. When I saw Community Legal Services I though "Well cool, at least she has represented clients in court." But the description seems like not even that. Maybe California doesn't have a student practice act.
I'm sure this is a case of mistaken identity. I don't think WP's associate counsel would commit copyright violation as their first edit by pasting two paragraphs from a Reuters news story...
I'm sure this is a case of mistaken identity. I don't think WP's associate counsel would commit copyright violation as their first edit by pasting two paragraphs from a Reuters news story...
Hush, she's only an intern (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) Although the user name, registration date, and editing interests certainly are similar, you're probably right.
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Out with Godwin, In with the new sycophant
