Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: Arbcom (from Rodhullandemu)
------------------------
From: Newyorkbrad <newyorkbrad@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 21:49
To: Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Forwarded with permission, and without comment.
Newyorkbrad
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rodhullandemu <wikimail@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Subject: Arbcom
To: Newyorkbrad <newyorkbrad@gmail.com>
I note that you are prepared to take a middle position, which is very fair of you; however, we are both lawyers and know how to play hardball if necessary.
This is my position, from which I am not prepared to deviate:
1. Rodhullandemu is prepared to voluntarily relinquish his admin privileges, backdated to their removal by ArbCom, and to be reinstated in full on 1 April 2011. This will give him time to emerge from the winter months, and do some meaningful edits in the meantime without being under the pressure of fighting the constant tide of vandalism.
2. Rodhullandemu is prepared to accept a voluntary and indefinite interaction ban with Malleus Fatuorum, enforceable by blocks by any uninvolved administrator.
That's all.
Cheers.
RH&E
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From: Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 21:55
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Erm, no to #1 - a one-month desysop will not change the behavioural pattern here. In the alternative, he could return to RFA on April 1, if he likes. The lack of opposition to the fact of his desysop (as opposed to the process of his desysop) leads me to believe that we cannot take it for granted that he continues to enjoy the support of the community in the admin role.
#2 I'd be fine with.
Risker/Anne
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From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:05
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
While it's nice that he's talking, I just cannot see ever allowing him to have the bit back in light of the new evidence--whether he's a liar, kiddie porn convict, or adopted the persona of someone else. The real question is whether and how he is entirely banned, what we're willing to disclose in public to make the community go easier on us for doing the right thing, and how much we want to refine our procedures.
What on earth is his bargaining position? What does he offer us? I think a fair counterproposal is that he posts a humiliatingly abject apology, withdraws the case with prejudice, and resigns the tools forever, in exchange for us not posting the evidence page on-wiki.
I note he still says he's a lawyer. Wonder what he'd say if we asked him if he'd ever been convicted of anything?
Jonathan
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:06
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I would be willing to accept a six month temp desysop, in order to get
this off our collective plate.
If we did that, we'd cop a lot of flack from the people who agree he
is a bad sysop, but it lays the framework for a case if he returns to
his old ways once he gets the tools back.
--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: Cool Hand Luke <User.CoolHandLuke@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:09
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
RFA for him was suggested at the request--he doesn't even need to wait a month; the motion left the door wide open. To that suggestion he replied:
@HJ Mitchell: Are you crazy? Admins who combat vandalism as a career do not make friends. Reality, please! Rodhull andemu
I don't think he sees RFA as an option. I am willing to tell him we'd give it a fresh look after 6 or 12 months, but one month is a non-starter for me.
Of course, this is all contingent on the USENET issue not blowing up.
Frank
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From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:16
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
On 04/03/2011 03:09, Cool Hand Luke wrote:
>snip>
Yes, I'd go along with that, dependent of course on radically improved civility, less biteyness etc. Whether it tackles the tension between his take on WP:IAR and WP:INVOLVED is another matter.
Roger
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From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:18
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
I think he's seeing far less drama at the case than he was hoping for. In fact, now the case is getting underway, the tumult has gorn.
Roger
On 04/03/2011 03:05, Jonathan Clemens wrote:
<snip>
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From: Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:22
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Horrible, horrible idea, in my opinion. The absolutely last thing we want to do at this point is to create written evidence that we might be willing to let him be an admin again; if push comes to shove, he might prove perfectly willing to take us down with him.
Kirill
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From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:27
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Well, at this precise point, when the link between RH&E and "Witt" has not been established, it's a reasonable thing to discuss.
If and when we get an admission about the link, the whole landscape changes completely.
Roger
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From: Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:28
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I rather doubt a hostile press would bother to make so fine a distinction.
Kirill
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From: Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 22:27
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
While I don't agree with Kirill's suggestions on how to deal with the usenet stuff (which seems guaranteed to blow up in our faces and is more likely to lead to another "Arbcom-L leaks" concern within the community)....I am inherently loathe to open the door to returning the bits to him at this point; however, I could probably live with our standard "decision can be appealed in 6 months" language in the final decision.
Risker/Anne
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From: Cool Hand Luke <User.CoolHandLuke@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 23:07
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Standard language is fine with me; he doesn't merit special treatment one way or the other. I would consider it for drastic improvement even though it looks dismal right now.
Frank
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 23:07
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
...
He & Malleus are currently doing their best to show us why this is necessary
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...iginal_research--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: David Yellope <dyellope.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 23:22
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
2) Yes.
1) We can review in six months, or if he truly thinks there will be a great wind that will sweep out arbs who oppressed him, twelve months from now, but anything that gives him the mop back without RfA is a nonstarter
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From: Cas Liber <casliber01@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 23:48
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Agree with Kirill - remember there was virtually no community opposition to what is in effect a (likely) permanent desysop.
<snip>
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From: Newyorkbrad <newyorkbrad@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 19:48
To: Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Some feedback would be welcome; I am not prepared to wait much longer for a reaction, given the obloquy I have already suffered. ElenoftheRoads has indicated that she will be unavailable for a couple of days- that's unacceptable when she seems to to have taken on the role of prosecutor. Wikipedia is 24/7, and although I don't work to those standards, otherwise I would be dead, it is not beyond the wit and capability of ArbCom to ensure that its victims are kept informed as to what is going on.
I'll just say this: I've offered ArbCom an olive branch that will result in a mutually satisfactory result for all parties, and avoid much future embarassment on both sides. I do not expect to be beaten over the head with that offer of peace; I expect it to be taken seriously, and avoid further and unnecessary community criticism of ArbCom. In this sense, for the benefit of Wikipedia, I am prepared to stand by that offer. In short, ArbCom can take it or leave it.
Cheers,
RH&E
----- Original Message -----
From: Newyorkbrad
To: Rodhullandemu
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Arbcom
Would you like me to forward this to the full Arbitration Committee? Obviously I can't respond unilaterally.
Newyorkbrad
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From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 19:55
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
While he's right--we should respond at some point--I think we have little to lose by thinking things through thoroughly.
Time is not on his side. Assuming the Usenet posts aren't going to leak and/or being independently rediscovered, it's not particularly /not/ on our side, either.
I'd recommend a neutrally worded message saying that we are considering his offer and discussing it.
Jonathan
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From: Newyorkbrad <newyorkbrad@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 20:04
To: Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
His reply; I won't be responding again, though someone else should write him when we have something to say
Newyorkbrad
I expected better than silence. Even a holding position would have been better than nothing. However, I am not prepared to deviate from my olive branch position, which would seem to be acceptable to the community at large.
Over to you.
Cheers,
RH&E
----- Original Message -----
From: Newyorkbrad
To: Phil Nash
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Arbcom
Dear Rodhullandemu:
I forwarded your e-mail to the committee, last night, and it has been under discussion. I think someone (I am not a spokesman for the committee in this matter) will get back to you in due course, hopefully in the near future. However, I do not think it is either appropriate or helpful for you to issue ultimatums, nor do I understand what it is you are threatening to do.
Newyorkbrad
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From: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 21:38
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Cc: phnash@blueyonder.co.uk
Phil,
Thank you for contacting us; the Committee is currently discussing
your offer. Developing consensus among 18 or so people via mailing
list isn't terribly efficient, so we appreciate your patience.
Shell Kinney
----------
From: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 21:41
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Absolutely not. As others have suggested, I'd be prepared to accept a
6 month and then he can ask for them back process.
No problems with this and I do think it's a good idea.
Shell Kinney
----------
From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:05
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
And just to be clear... by "ask for them back", you mean "ask for them from the community via RfA", right?
Given all that's transpired--original cause, unhelpful wikilawyering/defiant replies, past statements that have come to light--I'm not seeing any way we can give them back by ArbCom fiat.
Jonathan
----------
From: Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:10
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Just because he appeals, doesn't mean his appeal will be successful. But a door should be left open a crack for him to at least have the opportunity to put forward a case in the future illustrating that his methodology has changed.
We have resysopped in the past, usually where the critical issue was a one-off and the individual was able to demonstrate understanding of why it was not acceptable. Other times we've referred to RFA, and many times there has been no appeal.
Risker/Anne
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From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:19
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I'm all for leaving a theoretical door open if it will help resolve the matter, and we give all sorts of "may appeal in six months" out to people we all know there is no way short of a collective fit of insanity we'd ever let back in. As long as we're on the same page that this is the sort of door we're going to leave open, I'm OK with that.
Jonathan
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:35
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
The current vague voting on the option to allow an appeal in six
months is six vs two/three, if I've understood peoples comments so
far.
support
-------
John Vandenberg (supporting more liberal six month automatic
retooling, if necessary)
Cool Hand Luke
Roger Davies
Risker
Michelle Kinney
Jonathan Clemens "I'm all for leaving a theoretical door open"
oppose
------
Kirill "The absolutely last thing we want to do at this point is to
Cas Liber: per Kirill
unsure
------
David Yellope "We can review in six months"/"anything that gives him
--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: David Yellope <dyellope.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:42
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
That means that I don't think there's anyway we give it back to him ourselves, but he can ask us in six months or go to RfA at any time.
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:49
To: David Yellope <dyellope.wiki@gmail.com>
Cc: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
So you support a "no, but you can ask ArbCom for the tools again in six months"?
If so, we are seven vs two in favour of that response.
----------
From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 22:56
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Our next decision is whether and how to reply to his self-styled "olive branch"
I suggest we reply "We are not interested in your proposed terms at this time, and are continuing to prepare for the public case you've requested. "
Jonathan
----------
From: David Yellope <dyellope.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 23:04
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
This is what I suggest:
"Hi Phil:
After review, we do not think that giving back the tools automatically at this time is a good idea. We are willing to offer the compromise of allowing you to ask the Committee in six months to have your tools reinstated, as well as asking for the tools back at RFA. Of course, we can still continue with the public case we've requested, should you prefer."
And should we decide to inquire about the Phil Nash.Witt thing:
"Also, evidence has been placed before the Committee that ties someone with a similar name and similar background to you on Usenet. Could you confirm this is you?"
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From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 23:11
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I like that approach, along with the "witt" query in the same email.
I'd suggest "... before the Committee of another Phil Nash who practiced law in Liverpool and posted repeatedly to Usenet. ..." Give him a bit more of the specifics, but not enough to be an overt threat.
Jonathan
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From: Cool Hand Luke <User.CoolHandLuke@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 23:31
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I think simply asking him if he was Witt (sample email addresses) would be better. More biographical details aren't really important as the identity with Witt (and I suspect these increase the likelihood of an non-useful answer). That said, I agree with Roger's suggestion of asking whether the Phil Nash Commons connection should be pulled down.
Frank
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 23:31
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
as well as [..] RFA -> in addition to the option of an RFA at your choosing.
This works.
I would also I'd prefer that it was a bit more explicitly. Another option is
".. on Usenet, who has used 'Witt' and other aliases over the last
decade or more."
--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: Phil Nash <phnash@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 00:10
To: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Consensus to desysop me wasn't so slow, and I see no reason why a reasonable offer to save face for all involved should not achieve the same level of urgency, if the ultimate benefit of the encyclopedia is to be considered.
RH&E
----------
From: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 00:13
To: Phil Nash <phnash@blueyonder.co.uk>
Cc: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Perhaps not, but it did take several days whereas we've had your
emails for less than 24 hours now. This is our top priority and we
will be getting back with an answer as soon as possible.
Shell Kinney
----------
From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 00:32
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
(list only)
I do not care for his pressing for a quick response while simultaneously needling us:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...oldid=417196794He appears to be trying to keep the pressure up on us rather than approach a "face saving" in good faith.
Jonathan
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From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:27
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
I'm a bit concerned that we're permitting RH&E to set the agenda. The core issue is not that we have a dispute with RH&E that requires resolving but that he has engaged in problematic behaviour over a long period.
Therefore, and before we do anything else, we must provide RH&E with details with diffs of sample behaviour and provide him with an opportunity to respond.
The easiest way to do this is by Helen posting her evidence once she's back. More fundamentally, his reaction to the evidence is likely to guide us how best to proceed.
Roger
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From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:39
To: roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com, English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Roger Davies
I agree with this, except that delaying proceedings is giving him and
others opportunity to throw rocks in public.
If it speeds up the process, I think someone else can send him Helen's
evidence, if we are all happy with it.
--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:41
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
On further reflection, agreeing to reconsider the tools in six months opens the door to:
* Allegations that our original decision was profoundly flawed and we offered the six months purely as a face-saving exercise;
* Six months of campaigning by RH&E for a return of the tools by ArbCom
* Revisit of the "tainted process" discussion in six months time (you guys are acting as prosecutor, judge, executioner, AND parole board)
Having thought about it more, the only circumstances I'd consider this route are if we get an unambiguous acknowledgement from RH&E that his conduct has fallen well short of admin standards and that the desysopping was correct.
He won't of course be in a position to make an informed decision on this until he's seen the evidence. So, for the time being, I'm opposed to this route.
Roger
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From: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:46
To: roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com, English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Hmm. I hadn't thought about that. Given his continued pointy
comments and mis-characterizations on wiki, this does seem a bit more
like "Make it go away so I can continue to climb the reichstag while
making you guys look like asses" or something along those lines.
While we aren't elected to be popular, Rod was the one that determined
not to handle this privately or even appropriately. So please change
me to a straight no on his admin tools proposal, but yes, you need an
interaction ban, clearly.
Shell
----------
From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:52
To: roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com, English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Roger Davies
The arbcom motion would need to have wording that removed this possibility.
I dont see this working out in his favour.
There would also be six months for the community to find good reasons
why he shouldnt be given the tools.
epic fail as executioner in that sequence.
I agree he needs to see the evidence first.
----------
From: Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 01:55
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Yeah, unless there's clear consensus that we MUST give him an "appeal in six months" out, I'd say we should toe the line with "at any time via a new RfA", like we said in the first place. I'm willing to be outvoted, but my first preference is to stick with the previous sanction.
Consider the balance of power here: I'm not seeing how he can damage us or the project any more than he already has, while we hold the power to destroy his reputation and essentially force him off the project without using any tools or non-public information. The reason we're not even seriously contemplating that is that we're all decent human beings who are STILL, despite all the crap that's been lobbed at us, trying to resolve this with as little harm to anyone as possible. At the same time, there is no particular cause for us to either hurry or appease his ridiculous demands. The fundamental facts of the case are solid: he's not suitable to hold the administrator tools, hasn't been for a good long while, and now that we've deprived him of that venue to vent hostility on others, he's focusing his energy on *defeating* us. Not preserving the project, acknowledging personal misdeeds or mistakes.
Jonathan
----------
From: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 02:01
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Jonathan Clemens <clem4609@pacificu.edu> wrote:
> ... he's focusing his energy on *defeating* us. Not preserving the project, acknowledging personal misdeeds or mistakes.
I'm pretty sure he thinks he is doing this to preserve the fundamental
values of the project, and teaching us a lesson at the same time.
--
John Vandenberg
----------
From: Roger Davies <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 03:04
To: John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
Cc: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I don't think anyone else should send Helen's evidence unless we agree
as a committee to adopt it (which would require it to be completely
re-written and then a formal vote).
However, a lot of the rock-throwing will stop once the evidence is out
there.
People are only going on about process because they have not been given
tangible credible reasons for desysopping and therefore the desysop
decision looks as if it was done on a whim. In this instance, the truth
- that RH&E has demonstrated ample behaviour over the years incompatible
with having the tools, that this behaviour was escalating frequency, and
that this had somehow slipped almost entirely under the community's
radar - is a complete defence to all the process arguments.
Roger
----------
From: Kenneth Kua/ArbCom <kenneth@planetkh.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 06:20
To: roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com, English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
And add on that we'll be accused of doing back-door deals. He claimed that the date is non-negotiable, so there's a chance that he might not even accept the 6 months. April 1 would be sentenced served as the case probably would close later than that and by then he gets his tools back instantly.
For me, it's a No Deal. This guy's got a lot more to lose than we do if we turn down his offer.
Kenneth/MD
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From: Cool Hand Luke <User.CoolHandLuke@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 11:53
To: "roger.davies.wiki" <roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com>, English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I agree with this approach, as I said somewhere.
I think this is mostly true, although some appear actually concerned about the process.
I also agree with your point about the 6 months reconsideration. I'm not a wikishrink, but he does seem to be exhibiting warning signs of Ottava Syndrome. He would be best served by a clean break from ArbCom; it may be best if his ability to appeal is no more than implicit.
Frank
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From: <philknight@mail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 13:34
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
I'm not a fan of the 6 months deal either.
We've received a lot of criticism for not handling things on-wiki, and this would probably just attract more.
Also, what happens if after 6 months he has made thousands of edits reverting vandalism with no significant blunders?
Phil
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From: Marc A. Pelletier <marc@uberbox.org>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 16:05
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
I'm at the point where I no longer care what he believes. I am opposed
to any form of appeasement at this time; he will be given an opportunity
to make his case at the RFAr he demanded.
-- Coren / Marc
----------
From: Iridescent Wikipedia <iridescentwiki@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 16:13
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
What he (Marc) said. Whatever one thinks of the Arbcom-as-final-arbiter structure, it's the structure Wikipedia currently has, and part of the unwritten contract one agrees to in participating on Wikipedia is an acceptance of that structure. Negotiating implies that his ramblings have equal status to the formal decisions of Arbcom, and sets a horrible precedent—every desysopped admin, blocked editor and serial crank will be complaining that they deserve the same right to choose the terms of their own parole. It's no secret that I think there ought to be a separate AppealCom to handle stuff like this and take away Arbcom's combined cop-judge-jury role, but unless and until that change happens Wikipedia is a dictatorship with Arbcom as the Politburo, and if he doesn't like it I'm sure Citizendium would be glad to have him.
From: Marc A. Pelletier <marc@uberbox.org>
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 21:05:08
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From: Phil Nash <phnash@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 21:02
To: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
You can delay as much as you like; you still aren't going to paper over the cracks. Meanwhile, I am out of Wikipedia, with much sadness, but necessarily in the face of the injustice and indignity to which I have been subjected. The ArbCom members need to have mirrors in front of them on a daily basis, to which they address the question "Are you doing the right thing, or merely following the herd?" If they aren't prepared to be extremely careful in answering that question, they do not deserve their positions.
Meanwhile, I have no more time for fools.
Cheers,
----------
From: Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 05:56
To: Phil Nash <phnash@blueyonder.co.uk>
While ArbCom hasn't prepared a formal statement yet, to keep you up to
date, my feeling from the discussions is that it is unlikely we will
accept your offer and will proceed with the case where you can discuss
the evidence publicly.
Shell Kinney
----------
From: <philknight@mail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 19:12
To: wikimail@blueyonder.co.uk
Cc: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
We have now had an opportunity to consider your offer of your (i) voluntarily relinquishing your administrator privileges with effect from 26 February 2011 with reinstatement in full on 1 April 2011 and (ii) accepting a voluntary and indefinite interaction ban with Malleus Fatuorum.
At this point, given that a case has been initiated in public, we believe that it is not in anyone's best interests to further additional speculation by concluding the case in private. As such, your offer is declined, and the public case will be opened shortly.
Phil Knight
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From: Xeno <xenowiki@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 19:17
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Thanks for emailing him.
As a best practice, Brad's prefix to us - even though it did not convey much - should probably have been trimmed.
-x
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From: <philknight@mail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 19:18
To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Thanks for letting me know.
Phil
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From: Phil Nash <phnash@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 19:40
To: philknight@mail.com
Cc: roger.davies.wiki@gmail.com, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>, Newyorkbrad <newyorkbrad@gmail.com>, Michelle Kinney <shell.kinney@gmail.com>, Elen of the Roads <elenoftheroads@gmail.com>, arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Given the Arbitration Committee's unwillingness to provide me with adequate or any evidence against me, on request, or to substantiate its own case without right of reply, the subsequent community outrage as to the procedures involved, the unjustified refusal of Arbiters to recuse themselves from further proceedings, when they are clearly already biased against me, followed by Jimbo's hasty evaluation of the issue without even considering any detailed comments from me, sorry, but I'm not going to take part in that unseemly circus.
My offer could, and should, have been seen to avoid further embarrassment all round. If that is not the position of ArbCom, then sorry, but I have little sympathy with it. I'm just fed up of being bullied and abused, and will not take it any more. It's bad enough to be a survivor of sexual and other abuse in real life, without having to suffer similar in a virtual environment.
Rodhullandemu. Ex-editor of Wikipedia, with no thanks whatsoever.
----- Original Message -----
----------
From: Xeno <xenowiki@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 20:15
To: English Arbitration Committee mailing list <arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
<list & Jimmy only>
I don't see the need to reply, or change course. He asked for the hearing, the community is now expecting a hearing, and one is necessary if we want to be able to extract any value from a community-wide discussion on handling similar cases.
-x // mobile
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