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Posted by: gomi

After only a few months on Wikipedia, Historicist (T-C-L-K-R-D) has amassed http://toolserver.org/~bjweeks/cgi-bin/wikistalk.py?namespace=0&all=on&user1=Jayjg&user2=Historicist&user3=&user4=&user5=&user6=&user7=&user8=&user9=&user10= with the departed Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) . Coincidence or conspiracy?

Posted by: MBisanz

Unless his sleeping and editing patterns have changed by a considerable amount, I don't see the connection.

Posted by: Kato

Historicist makes a number of sarcastic comments against SlimVirgin in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2009_Israel_Defense_Forces_T-shirt_affair_(2nd_nomination):

This doesn't sound like Jayjg. Not least because the spelling is atrocious.

Posted by: Obesity

I dunno, the subject overlap with Jayjg fits him to a tee. And Jayjg could be on the outs with slim, since she has now softened her pro-Israel stance, compared to his.

The typos could be an affectation or just mistakes... his POV is identical to that of Jayjg.

Posted by: Heat

Spelling mistakes could be a deliberate attempt not to look like Jayjg.

Posted by: Kato

Also, this Historicist guy has actually been active for the best part of 9 months. This is quite a long time on WP, and it is quite easy to amass similar editing patterns to other people, by probability. This has been shown before on WR, when various Wikipedios here (I don't remember who) showed they had numerous articles in common with random editors they had no contact with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Historicist&diff=251253218&oldid=249977656, Jayjg himself seems to remonstrate with Historicist, and makes a few polite comments to him http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Historicist&diff=255078135&oldid=254431230, and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Historicist&diff=279280302&oldid=279057659. These seem plausible enough.

So far, very little really points to Jayjg as controlling the two accounts.

Posted by: thekohser

I've done that before, to try to not look like myself.

Posted by: dogbiscuit

WARNING! WARNING! Unripened sock alert!

Posted by: The Adversary

There are several "new" Jayjg -wannabes abound. Besides Historicist (T-C-L-K-R-D) , we have Wikifan12345 (T-C-L-K-R-D) ...both users seems to have "been around the block", if you see what I mean.

However, I don´t get the "smell" of Jayjg from either one. And I wonder if Historicist is not female? (Btw, Wikifan12345 was reported at AN/I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive550#Disruptive_editor_Wikifan12345_possible_sockpuppet_for_banned_accounts ; SV seems to think he/she is banned user Dajudem/Tundrabuggy, but the edit-times don´t really fit, unless s/he moved.)

The thing is: there are so many organizations/groups out there actively recruiting, (sometimes for payment) editors with a pro-Israeli view. Does anyone think CAMERA has given up? I don´t. And then you have JIDF.. And besides these more secular organizations , you have religious ones. Over at WR:Judaism it is quite openly discussed that Chabad are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism/Archive_22#Chabad.Org_hiring_wikipedia_editors_and_admins (Jayjg´s edits coincided very much with Chabad views, AFAIK )

So that some new accounts look/ edit like older accounts might simply be because they are comming from the same place, so to speak

What these editors all have in common is very limited knowledge. And, these POV-pushers irritate hell out of more knowledgeable editors. I have seen it again and again and again...these extremely pro-Israeli editors always end up turning people ...more anti-Israeli

Posted by: Cla68

That's what these POV-pushers don't seem to understand and which Jossi, Jayjg, SV, and several others apparently belatedly realized, I assume to their chagrin, which is that POV-pushing will eventually attract enough negative attention to the articles that they're trying to control to ruin what they've spent so many hours trying to accomplish.

Posted by: Tarc

Wikifan12345 showed up about a week after the CAMERA case closed, and started right in on some of the most contentious I-P articles (Israeli apartheid and al-Durrah) and within a day was in on DRVs and AfDs. He gets quite pissy when this sort of thing is brought up, and rather than answering directly, goes on the "go file a sock case if you think so!" defense.

I initially thought it was Zeq, but the impeccable spelling and grammar makes that highly improbable. Some have mentioned affectations above, but it is far easier to pretend stupid than to pretend smart.

Posted by: Nerd

Like Elvis, there will always be "Jayjg sightings" but that are never quite substantiated with hard evidence. He's smart, and I'm sure he wouldn't be so blatant in his editing habits to let everyone know what sock he's editing with (if he even is editing).

Posted by: Milton Roe

Ah, Cla, you srsly overestimate the importance of pragmatism in the lives of idealism-driven fighters. These people don't really care whether their efforts make the goal less likely, even if you could PROVE it to them. Why? Because it's the struggle itself that addicts them, rather than the outcome. They love the drama of it, the caramaderie of it, the being counted as on the side of the angels. This is one reason why you see so much of this in the religious community. These folks figure it will all be reset in the end by God Almighty, and the criterion then will be less what you actually got done, than what side you were on. Thus, you're free to do things you know very well aren't helping, in the short term.

I first realized this in the issue of teen pregancy, when it soon became apparent statistically from Europe that the way to decrease it the most was to teach contraception. Then we found out that the people who are against teen pregancy are willing to allow MORE teen pregnancy rather than to give up their single real goal, which is to be on the side of those who support the Great Fight Against Unauthorized Fucking.

Legalized prostitution? Same problem, more or less, though the stakes are even higher. Illegal prostitution results in a far more dangeous world for the women who practice it. But danger to women was not really what the opponents were interested in. They were interested in a world where what you trade sex for, is way more complicated. And damn the people who want a simple transaction: let them be murdered, if that's what it takes.

The American drug war is a similar thing. In this country we have 4 times more people in jail per capita than Europe and more than any place else in the Western world (nobody really has these figures for China but we may beat even them). And it 's not working. It's gotten to the point were we let people with long histories of violent crime out on the street (like this recent Carolina random killer) so we have space left to keep drug convicts locked up for their mandatory federal time, which can be decades.

The penalties for being caught using or dealing drugs are to interrupt a young person's education, remove them from their legitimate job if they have one, and give them a criminal record so they are henceforth unemployable in any kind of reasonably satisfactory job, ever again. So guess what they then turn to, instead? We've now created a permanent underclass which gets worse the harder we "punish" it. Can we get out of this hole by realizing that the cure is worse than the disease? No! I once thought it was just a matter of explaining to those who want to see less life-destroying drug use, that they were destroying more lives by how they were "treating" the problem. Didn't matter. Turned out lives-destroyed weren't what they were interested in, but being on the side of the angels. Same problem. Destroy em all and let god sort it out.

Milton The Village Atheist Humanist
Who thinks we need to try to get it right the first time, in the one life we know we have...

Posted by: LessHorrid vanU

Sound! (as I believe the "hep young things" of my nation would say to signify impressed agreement).

Posted by: The Adversary

If you needed proof that Historicist is not Jayjg: s/he has just been caught socking in a very silly, straight-forward manner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Historicist/Archive.

Now, our Jayjg would never have been caught in such a silly way

Ehh ....unless this was a very advanced version of "let-me-play-extremely-stupid-so-nobody-thinks-it-is-me"

Eh, nope. I dont think so: Historicist was first http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AHistoricist for his/her stunt, (later reduced to two weeks.). There is a limit to "brinkmanship".

And then I went and watched the real thing, and found, oh-oh...he´s....he´s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayjg

Posted by: Cla68

Perhaps he might help me out with an Israeli-related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabiah_bridge_collapse I'm about to start expanding. I've been reading that book by Alon Tal mentioned in the references section and I'm planning on starting a number of articles about the environmental history of Israel, which appears to have been neglected in Wikipedia so far.

Posted by: EricBarbour

Not recommended. You will have problems with Jay.

Posted by: Cock-up-over-conspiracy

OK, this is loose ... something I do not understand and do not know the correct terminology.

But, add to what you say, there is a "repressive-suppressive" type of mentality in which if the individuals do not actually enjoy setting individuals up, are skilled and habituated into doing so to achieve their ends.

Giving the example as you did, at the grunt level at least, police and thieves come from the same social background and are involved in the same industry. There are a lot of positions - and agendas - in society dependent on there being lots of crime. Profitable positions, both paid and unpaid, which would not exist if "crime" did not ... and so it is in their interest for it too exist. Lots of it ... the more the better ... I am thinking of how the Intelligence communities and the repressives collude to creates enemies into to justify their budgets and power over others.

Am I the only one to think that there are a lot of sneaks, snitches and 'class monitor' types - the same repressives - on the Pee-dia that just would not be needed if proper management was in place ... and who resist such changes, sub-consciously at least, on the basis that they would render them impotent?

Again, the abuses of power creating and inciting the same type of "underclass" and revolutionaries.

Posted by: The Joy

Posted by: gomi

And isn't it amazing that Jayjg returned exactly 33 minutes after Historicist was blocked? And he shares 370 pages in common with Jayjg. Lesser Wikipedians have been banned for such coincidences.

Posted by: The Joy

Don't worry. SlimVirgin will help you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin

Posted by: No one of consequence

Jayjg would never act in a way to give someone an excuse to run checkuser on him.

Posted by: Milton Roe

Ah, our favorite BJ Weeks tool is back in operation!

http://toolserver.org/~bjweeks/cgi-bin/wikistalk.py

Historicist has a Kabbal-Kount of 21. Not that impressive and far less than I'd expect for a Jayjg sock of any kind. Looks like just an ordinary Zionist POV-pusher who put his foot in it, finally.

#1 Zionism - edited by 4 of 4 users
#2 Temple_Mount - edited by 4 of 4 users
#3 Steven_Spielberg - edited by 4 of 4 users
#4 September_11_attacks - edited by 4 of 4 users
#5 Right_of_return - edited by 4 of 4 users
#6 Norman_Finkelstein - edited by 4 of 4 users
#7 New_antisemitism - edited by 4 of 4 users
#8 List_of_British_Jews - edited by 4 of 4 users
#9 Jewish_lobby - edited by 4 of 4 users
#10 Jesse_Jackson - edited by 4 of 4 users
#11 Jerusalem - edited by 4 of 4 users
#12 Institute_for_Historical_Review - edited by 4 of 4 users
#13 Holocaust_denial - edited by 4 of 4 users
#14 Gas_chamber - edited by 4 of 4 users
#15 Daniel_Pipes - edited by 4 of 4 users
#16 Criticism_of_Judaism - edited by 4 of 4 users
#17 Children_and_minors_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict - edited by 4 of 4 users
#18 Benny_Morris - edited by 4 of 4 users
#19 Antisemitism - edited by 4 of 4 users
#20 Anti-Zionism - edited by 4 of 4 users
#21 Anti-Defamation_League - edited by 4 of 4 users

Posted by: The Adversary

May I recommend the little on-line library http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Palestine/Books? If you go to the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Palestine/Books#Books.2C_newer.2C_fully_on_the_internet_.28not_.22privately.22_listed.29:, you will find that the Alon Tal-book is fully on the net; it should be linked from your article.
<edit>
There is also a whole commons-cat: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:15th_Makabia_bridge (..I remembered that one, from searching every Yarkon river picture over at commons for traces of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisha)

Posted by: The Adversary

No, not today. But, unless someone else "confess", I will be forever convinced that the nasty sock John McW (T-C-L-K-R-D) was Jayjg, back in the stone age. That sock basically existed to taunt Marsden (T-C-L-K-R-D) .

When Marsden came back as an IP, Jayjg claimed (on AN/I, or AN) ..that this IP was wikistaking him. I checked every single contribution to that IP...it turned out that the IP was actually http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jayjg/Archive_11&diff=prev&oldid=28579792

Jayjg never answered my question then, less than an hour later he simply "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jayjg/Archive_11&diff=next&oldid=28611203" the whole thing.

Posted by: The Adversary

There is a small group of editors on WP who edits (or edited) in almost the exact same way, say Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) , Tewfik (T-C-L-K-R-D) , Historicist (T-C-L-K-R-D)
Go to http://en.wikichecker.com/ ...and find they edit at almost the exact same times (East Coast US/Canada, never on Saturdays?) ..and with very similar interest/opinions. Btw, Jayjg and Tewfik shared 458 pages in common.

In spite of this: I don´t have the feeling they are the same person. Part of the same "wiki-congregation", certainly.
But not identical.

Posted by: gomi

You are probably correct. However, a by-product of not believing as efficacious or worthwhile Wikipedia's sockpuppetry rules is that one treats editors, distinct or not, who edit in virtually exactly the same way as being, for all intents and purposes, identical.

The WP cabal throws around accusations of "sock!" and "meatpuppet" (what a gruesome word) with gay abandon, enforcing their defective moral code without regard to whether the edits made are a net improvement. The fact that two or three or more editors who push the same zealous ideological theme are distinct individuals communicating over email seems to me almost immaterial -- their conspiracy makes Wikipedia an unreliable broadsheet for fanatics. But we knew that.

Posted by: The Adversary

One of the first places on WP where that became abundantly clear to me, was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shahak -article.

Now, I read a lot about him, say every obituary there was, including the ones in major Israeli newspapers like Haaretz. None mentioned the opinion of neo-nazis like David Duke on Shahak. Still, that is in the WP-article (Jeeez, the last version of the article even links directly to the David Duke -site --completely against all rules about citing "fringe" views. )

Now, when people in my RL ( who knows I´m interested in WP) asks me about whether they can trust WP, I always tell them to go to the Shahak -article. It is my "litmus test". As long as David Duke and neo-nazis are mentioned in that article, the mere idea that WP can be trusted, is

Posted by: Cla68

Thanks for the links, those are very helpful. The Tal book is an excellent work on Israel's troubled relationship with its natural environment. It's also a good book on the history of Israel, since that and the history of its environment are so intertwined. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the book, and I've already found about 50 different people (deceased, not BLPs), places, and things that I may start articles on if someone else hasn't already. From what I've seen so far, there probably aren't articles on those yet, because Israel's problematic environmental issues is a topic that appears to have been neglected in Wikipedia for whatever reason.

The Commons images are also useful. That bridge is the memorial built in memory of the bridge collapse, so it will be useful for the article.

Posted by: Son of a Yeti

Did he spend four months manning a West Bank checkpoint, or what?

Posted by: Milton Roe

And it really is gay abandon, if you know what we mean. And I think you do.

Posted by: EricBarbour

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israel_Shahak for Israel Shahak is a dead-typical, perfect example of Wikipedia Zionist
POVing. It consists mostly of long arguments between Nishidani and GrizzledOldMan
on one side, and Jayjg and his many favorite meatpuppets on the other.

But the discussion ends in February. I guess Nishidani and GOM gave up.
Meanwhile, people like Jaakoubou http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israel_Shahak&diff=308511549&oldid=308417244

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

Oh, but he's mainstream now, haven't you heard?

Hell, the good people of Louisiana would have voted him governor in 1991 had Hollywood and other out-of-state influences not been blatantly canvassing on behalf of less-worse-guy Edwin Edwards. The fictional election in O Brother, Where Art Thou? thinly spoofs these events to some extent.

Also I hear he was invited to speak at some conference in Iran...



Well, you'd think the government would at least offer internet access in lieu of hazardous duty pay. Or at least I'd hope...

Posted by: Heat

You imply that Wikipedia operates on the principle of "guilty by suspicion".

Posted by: Moulton

More like guilty by haphazard speculation.

Posted by: Heat

Fair enough.