Re-purposing Dalmatia, Amazon.com and dubious sources Options

[thekohser]

I have to say that this is one of the funniest things I've seen all month, related to free licenses.

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[thekohser]

I guess this thread was FAIL?

[dogbiscuit]

I guess this thread was FAIL?

Nah, just didn't have enough drama!

Love the Amazon page - they really put effort in, didn't they?

But Greg - 2 stars? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wtf.gif)

[The Wales Hunter]

Does the same go for all of the books by the same primary author?

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1255456113/ref...Brewster&page=1

[The Wales Hunter]

To answer my own question, it looks possible.

Problem here - if Wikipedia/the WMF/whoever don't keep a track of these kind of books, does that mean an inaccurate Wikipedia article could become a book and the book could then become the source for the inaccuracy in the article? Etc, etc, etc.

[thekohser]

Does the same go for all of the books by the same primary author?

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1255456113/ref...Brewster&page=1

This was the most important review that I read:

This is from alphascript's own web page.

30.09.2009
In August 2009 Alphascript publishing was contacted by British daily newspaper The Guardian" - we publish here some parts of the interview:

Q: ...do all of Alphascript's books take their content from Wikipedia?
Alphascript: Yes, since we believe that the quality of the Wikipedia-articles is so good that it is worthwhile creating books with them. Wikipedia themselves give an impulse for this. The articles published on their sites are free in every respect and without any limitations as to further use. All authors participating in texts of Wikipedia know this or should at least know it.
The vice-versa procedure by now seems to have become "normal". For years Google has been scanning books and published them in internet. Of course there are also protests, but then the rights for the material concerned are still with the author or the publishing house.
There is no discussion regarding digitalization of books - mostly old ones - which are free of rights.

Q: If so, shouldn't this be made clear in the product description?
Alphascript: It is pointed out in every Alphascript book that contents are Wikipedia articles. Do we now have to write in Amazon-books: "Attention! Books contains Wikipedia!"?
Then other publishing houses would have to point out in their books: "Attention! Book contains nonsense!", or: "Attention! Book has only sex-scenario!"

Q: What do you intend to do about the customer complaints?
Alphascript: We are of the opinion: Of course you can have all these contents free of charge from Wikipedia, but there is a reason for having bought a book on a specific topic. Under certain circumstances you are more up-to-date with an Alphascript-book instead of buying a book of last year the contents of which are possibly not up-to-date any more.
We do live in rapidly passing times.

Q: It would be great to also find out a bit more about Alphascript itself: what you publish, who you're aiming it at...
Alphascript: We offer our readers a well-founded content, which up to the moment of publication as a book has continuously been updated and controlled. Alphascript publishing is internet in form of a book. There can hardly be a faster process. And this is what we are aiming for.

So, aren't they utterly in violation of the GFDL and/or CC-by-God(win), by claiming that the work is "authored" by:

Frederic P. Miller (Editor), Agnes F. Vandome (Editor), John McBrewster (Editor)

These three people are not the top five contributors to the content, as the GFDL used to require.

Seriously, where is Mike Godwin on this one?

Greg

[The Wales Hunter]

I'm currently trying to determine whether those three names are actual people or just aliases.

[Grep]

Problem here - if Wikipedia/the WMF/whoever don't keep a track of these kind of books, does that mean an inaccurate Wikipedia article could become a book and the book could then become the source for the inaccuracy in the article? Etc, etc, etc.

Yes. This is precisely why Wikipedia is a danger to the whole foundation of human knowledge.

[Milton Roe]

Problem here - if Wikipedia/the WMF/whoever don't keep a track of these kind of books, does that mean an inaccurate Wikipedia article could become a book and the book could then become the source for the inaccuracy in the article? Etc, etc, etc.

Yes. This is precisely why Wikipedia is a danger to the whole foundation of human knowledge.

It wouldn't be the first time that the popular version of history (whatever make the best story) BECOMES history. But WP is certainly in danger of doing this more pervasively than at any time before.

An old joke is that Russia is a country with an unstable past. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) But horrid truth, Comrade, is that all countries have an unstable history, which is the story of the past and nearly all we know about, save for the occasional new documentary find and archeological evidence. History is constantly being reinterpreted through the fresh eyes of new generations of historians, but now we reach a world in which it is in danger of being reinterpreted though the fresh eyes of a generation of unwashed ignorant masses. And thus mythologized again, almost as in the days when history consisted of changable sagas instead of less mutable written records.

[thekohser]

I now discover that this was discussed, and flippantly dismissed by goth-giant David Gerard, on the Foundation-l mailing list, circa August 2009. It was also apparently a topic raised at the Village Pump on Wikipedia in June 2009.

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[thekohser]

So, call me crazy, but I reported Alphascript Publishing to the GNU Foundation, to Amazon's legal department, and to the Federal Trade Commission. I also later notified Mike Godwin about how every Alphascript cover on the copied-from-Wikipedia books has a green sticker that says "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles!" But, Mike was offended that I'd bring this to his attention. He said, "What the hell is wrong with you?" I guess he doesn't care when for-profit publishers shit on the Wikipedia trade name and deceptively use Amazon to repurpose Wikipedia content for profit.

Anyway, I got an e-mail reply from the "Dr. John McBrewster" whose e-mail was "legal@alphascript-publishing.com":

Last month we earned 2,3 billion US Dollars with Alphascript books, this month probably 8-10 billions. Next month > 100. If you are one of these poor U.S. citizens without health care insurance I can give you some $$ for your visit at the psychiatrist. Otherwise ask your President to send some military officers to my country on their way to Irak.

Wow. Alphascript this month will be making more than Comcast does. That's impressive!

Hey, wait. Amazon. Godwin. Jimbo. Wikia. Amazon invested $10 million in Wikia. Amazon is hosting Alphascript's deceptive content for profit. Hey, I think I see what might be going on here!

[carbuncle]

I now discover that this was discussed, and flippantly dismissed by goth-giant David Gerard, on the Foundation-l mailing list, circa August 2009. It was also apparently a topic raised at the Village Pump on Wikipedia in June 2009.

I'm sure I've seen this discussed before then , but perhaps not in reference to this particular publisher. Maybe it was in relation to eBay sales. My memory is hazy.

So, call me crazy, but I reported Alphascript Publishing to the GNU Foundation, to Amazon's legal department, and to the Federal Trade Commission. I also later notified Mike Godwin about how every Alphascript cover on the copied-from-Wikipedia books has a green sticker that says "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles!" But, Mike was offended that I'd bring this to his attention. He said, "What the hell is wrong with you?" I guess he doesn't care when for-profit publishers shit on the Wikipedia trade name and deceptively use Amazon to repurpose Wikipedia content for profit.

Anyway, I got an e-mail reply from the "Dr. John McBrewster" whose e-mail was "legal@alphascript-publishing.com":

Last month we earned 2,3 billion US Dollars with Alphascript books, this month probably 8-10 billions. Next month > 100. If you are one of these poor U.S. citizens without health care insurance I can give you some $$ for your visit at the psychiatrist. Otherwise ask your President to send some military officers to my country on their way to Irak.

Wow. Alphascript this month will be making more than Comcast does. That's impressive!

Hey, wait. Amazon. Godwin. Jimbo. Wikia. Amazon invested $10 million in Wikia. Amazon is hosting Alphascript's deceptive content for profit. Hey, I think I see what might be going on here!

Aha! So Dr McBrewster must be one of the editors to avoid infringing the license. I am a little surprised that Dr McBrewster didn't offer you a share of the money if you would deposit a cheque in your bank account and wire him the rest.

[Sarcasticidealist]

Problem here - if Wikipedia/the WMF/whoever don't keep a track of these kind of books, does that mean an inaccurate Wikipedia article could become a book and the book could then become the source for the inaccuracy in the article? Etc, etc, etc.

Yes. This is precisely why Wikipedia is a danger to the whole foundation of human knowledge.

Well, any book that was recognized as being lifted from Wikipedia clearly wouldn't qualify as an RS. The devil's in the recognition, I'd say, though that doesn't seem to be a problem here.

[thekohser]

So, I decided to try an experiment, at the suggestion of young Geoffrey Plourde. Re-list the "books" at a price significantly less than Alphascript.

So, I posted "United Arab Emirates" for sale in "New" condition as an Amazon Seller, for $19.95, underneath the Alphascript price of $72.

Twenty-four hours later, I have a sale. To a gal in Alabama. Jimbo's from Alabama. Must be something in the water there that allows people to be duped by free-license scams.

Here was my Seller notice to the Buyer:

Dear Allison,

My name is Gregory Kohs. You purchased a "book" today from me about the United Arab Emirates. The original book was printed by Alphascript Publishing. It is of poor quality construction. It is comprised entirely of direct, printed copies of the following articles that are available for FREE on Wikipedia:

United Arab Emirates, History of the United Arab Emirates, Outline of the United Arab Emirates, Politics of the United Arab Emirates, Military of the United Arab Emirates, Crime in the United Arab Emirates, Human rights in the United Arab Emirates, LGBT rights in United Arab Emirates, Foreign relations of the United Arab Emirates, Geography of the United Arab Emirates, Emirates of the United Arab Emirates, List of cities in the United Arab Emirates, Demographics of the United Arab Emirates, Education in the United Arab Emirates, Healthcare in the United Arab Emirates, Islam in the United Arab Emirates, Roman Catholicism in the United Arab Emirates, Bahá'í Faith in the United Arab Emirates, Economy of the United Arab Emirates, Transportation in the United Arab Emirates, Developments in Dubai, Music of the United Arab Emirates, Culture of the United Arab Emirates, Cinema of the United Arab Emirates, Sport in the United Arab Emirates

When you purchased the book from me, were you aware that what you would be receiving is nothing more than a print-out of FREELY-LICENSED content that is available to you, right now, free of charge, at Wikipedia.org?

I suspect that you were NOT under this impression or realization, and half of the reason for me listing the book was to test and see if unsuspecting consumers were aware of this ripoff scam that Alphascript Publishing is foisting on unsuspecting Amazon customers. I have contacted Amazon's legal department, but have received no reply (yet) from them. I have also reported Alphascript Publishing to the Federal Trade Commission.

If you wish, please cancel your order with me, and please join me in registering a complaint with Amazon, that Amazon is doing its customers a disservice by not requiring more clear notification that all 5,000+ of these Alphascript Publishing "books" are nothing more than Wikipedia print-outs.

If you wish to still receive a stack of print-outs of these articles, I will be happy to provide them to you for the advertised price. Please let me know your wishes, and your reaction to this information I have provided you today.

Kindly,

Gregory Kohs

What do you all think? Any bets on whether she actually wants the print-outs?

[Eva Destruction]

What do you all think? Any bets on whether she actually wants the print-outs?

Stranger things have happened. I've occasonally bought print books that are freely available on Google Books; the convenience of a real, bound book over a pile of printout pages sometimes justifies the cost. If this weren't the case, nobody would print bibles, Shakespeare et al.

[thekohser]

What do you all think? Any bets on whether she actually wants the print-outs?

Stranger things have happened. I've occasonally bought print books that are freely available on Google Books; the convenience of a real, bound book over a pile of printout pages sometimes justifies the cost. If this weren't the case, nobody would print bibles, Shakespeare et al.

Thing is, Bibles and Shakespeare aren't typically marketed as being "by" John McBrewster.

[Abd]

Thing is, Bibles and Shakespeare aren't typically marketed as being "by" John McBrewster.

It lists him as an editor. I'm not thrilled by the marketing, which strikes me as misleading, but my guess is that there is no license violation here, at least if they have been careful. On the other hand, Kohs, seems to me that you may have violated the Amazon TOS.

The basic idea is sound. No comment on the price, but people will pay for those books. They may not get filthy rich, but they will make money if they do it right. Actually, it's a cool way to make a buck from being an editor.

[thekohser]

Thing is, Bibles and Shakespeare aren't typically marketed as being "by" John McBrewster.

It lists him as an editor. I'm not thrilled by the marketing, which strikes me as misleading, but my guess is that there is no license violation here, at least if they have been careful. On the other hand, Kohs, seems to me that you may have violated the Amazon TOS.

The basic idea is sound. No comment on the price, but people will pay for those books. They may not get filthy rich, but they will make money if they do it right. Actually, it's a cool way to make a buck from being an editor.

It is deceptive marketing. And the preposition "by" is before John McBrewster (Editor). Not "edited by".

And it is a violation of Amazon terms of service:

Intellectual Property

* Recopied media. Recopied media infringe upon copyrights and
trademarks and are illegal to sell. Unauthorized copies, dubs, and
duplicates of any copyrighted material are prohibited on Amazon.com.
This includes:
o Books - Unauthorized copies of books are prohibited.

The copy isn't authorized if it hasn't met the terms of the CC license. The CC license terms include:

Notice—For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work.

Has Alphascript made clear to others the license terms of the work? Absolutely not.

Read the Product Description here.

It includes the text: "Physics is the science of matter and its behaviour and motion. It is one of the oldest scientific disciplines, perhaps the oldest through its inclusion of astronomy."

Prior to publication of this "book" by Alphascript, Wikipedia stated: "Physics is one of the oldest academic disciplines, perhaps the oldest through its inclusion of astronomy."

So, even the Product Description on Amazon itself likely violates the terms of the Creative Commons license. It's unauthorized. Don't be an idiot, Abd.

[Abd]

Don't be an idiot, Abd.

Why not? Isn't it more fun? If not, why would anyone bother trying? Only idiots get to blither, and if you haven't blithered, you haven't lived.

Do you know what is in the books themselves about license? "by So-and-So (editor) means the same as Edited by So-and-So. And simply by selecting and putting the pages together, So-and-So did edit. Remember, anyone can edit. Wikipedia, at least!

What's the problem here? Somebody puts together compilations of Wikipedia articles and probably uses a book-on-demand service, so he makes money with every sale. This could be done well or it could be done poorly, like much of anything else.

I've seen no evidence that these are "unauthorized copies." Looks to me like the license allows these copies. The statement by the editor that there are no restrictions wasn't true, but, remember, that's a media reporter and the meaning of "no restrictions" may not be "no restrictions," it means "we can do this, the restrictions, such as they are, don't prevent us." And if he has fail to properly note what the license requires, that's an error, but what will come of it? And why do you care?

Myself, I like the idea. Anyone could do this. Like me or you. Why not? And, of course, I mean, do it right. A URL to history can be used to cover the requirements of the license, if I'm correct.

Where they are off, of course, is that they don't disclose that the book is a copy of Wikipedia articles. They are correct, probably, that they don't legally have to do this, in the Amazon advertising.

But, you want an example of idiocy, how about the idea that what you were offering, a pile of copies of articles, would be the same as what they were selling, a bound book? Same content, but a pile of copies is far from as desirable as a bound book, particularly if the book is organized properly. Dalmatia. If I had some interest in Dalmatia, that would make a nice addition to a coffee-table, even if it is a copy of Wikipedia articles. I'd expect better thinking from you, Greg, what got you on a rant about this?

[The Wales Hunter]

But, you want an example of idiocy, how about the idea that what you were offering, a pile of copies of articles, would be the same as what they were selling, a bound book? Same content, but a pile of copies is far from as desirable as a bound book, particularly if the book is organized properly. Dalmatia. If I had some interest in Dalmatia, that would make a nice addition to a coffee-table, even if it is a copy of Wikipedia articles. I'd expect better thinking from you, Greg, what got you on a rant about this?

A lot of the books on sale contain wiki mark-up that hasn't been removed. And the image on the front of the book about Georgia, the country, is of Georgia, the US state!

[thekohser]

But, you want an example of idiocy, how about the idea that what you were offering, a pile of copies of articles, would be the same as what they were selling, a bound book? Same content, but a pile of copies is far from as desirable as a bound book, particularly if the book is organized properly. Dalmatia. If I had some interest in Dalmatia, that would make a nice addition to a coffee-table, even if it is a copy of Wikipedia articles. I'd expect better thinking from you, Greg, what got you on a rant about this?

Who says I wasn't going to bind it? I've got glue and a brown paper shopping bag and scissors.

Besides, I made clear in my condition notes that the product would consist of a stack of Wikipedia print-outs. If the buyer didn't read that or care about it, why should binding be important? The Alphascript marketing doesn't promise binding. It merely says "(Paperback)". Paperback is defined as "a book with paper covers".

Anyway, my newest listings will include the following very clear condition note:

Special "unbound" manuscript, consisting of printed-out pages copied from Wikipedia, just like the original product from Alphascript Publishing.

If I've violated Amazon TOS, then they can remove me from their Seller's list. Thus far, I have a 5-star rating as a Seller. What is Alphascript's Seller rating? I'll be happy to violate Amazon's TOS, if it draws attention to a much larger marketing fraud, license violation, and trademark infringement.

Get back to work on your "proxy cabal" idea, Abd.

Caveat emptor!

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[carbuncle]

But, you want an example of idiocy, how about the idea that what you were offering, a pile of copies of articles, would be the same as what they were selling, a bound book? Same content, but a pile of copies is far from as desirable as a bound book, particularly if the book is organized properly. Dalmatia. If I had some interest in Dalmatia, that would make a nice addition to a coffee-table, even if it is a copy of Wikipedia articles. I'd expect better thinking from you, Greg, what got you on a rant about this?

Who says I wasn't going to bind it? I've got glue and a brown paper shopping bag and scissors.

Besides, I made clear in my condition notes that the product would consist of a stack of Wikipedia print-outs. If the buyer didn't read that or care about it, why should binding be important? The Alphascript marketing doesn't promise binding. It merely says "(Paperback)". Paperback is defined as "a book with paper covers".

Anyway, my newest listings will include the following very clear condition note:

Special "unbound" manuscript, consisting of printed-out pages copied from Wikipedia, just like the original product from Alphascript Publishing.

If I've violated Amazon TOS, then they can remove me from their Seller's list. Thus far, I have a 5-star rating as a Seller. What is Alphascript's Seller rating? I'll be happy to violate Amazon's TOS, if it draws attention to a much larger marketing fraud, license violation, and trademark infringement.

Get back to work on your "proxy cabal" idea, Abd.

Caveat emptor!

If Amazon tosses you for violating their TOS, then whatever good you are doing protecting people from this scam will come to an end. Your disclaimer can be interpreted to mean that Alphascript's offering is also unbound.

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles, why not just beat Alphascript at their own game? Make it clear what you (and Alphascript) are selling and have the books printed on demand, just like they do. This lets people know what Alphascript is doing, and it undercuts them so they're less likely to make a sale if that's what people really want. Plus, you make a little money.

[thekohser]

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles, why not just beat Alphascript at their own game? Make it clear what you (and Alphascript) are selling and have the books printed on demand, just like they do. This lets people know what Alphascript is doing, and it undercuts them so they're less likely to make a sale if that's what people really want. Plus, you make a little money.

The proposition in bold above has not been proven. In fact, I have yet to encounter one person who has bought an Alphascript "book" copied from Wikipedia who knew that the content was from Wikipedia before their purchase. However, I have encountered several people who had no idea, and they feel duped by a marketing scam.

Therefore, were I to underprice Alphascript, and fairly and clearly market that the content is copied from Wikipedia, I would have very little to no sales.

It's astounding to me that so few seem to "get" this conundrum.

[CharlotteWebb]

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles...

Could be some of the same people who buy bottled water.

[carbuncle]

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles, why not just beat Alphascript at their own game? Make it clear what you (and Alphascript) are selling and have the books printed on demand, just like they do. This lets people know what Alphascript is doing, and it undercuts them so they're less likely to make a sale if that's what people really want. Plus, you make a little money.

The proposition in bold above has not been proven. In fact, I have yet to encounter one person who has bought an Alphascript "book" copied from Wikipedia who knew that the content was from Wikipedia before their purchase. However, I have encountered several people who had no idea, and they feel duped by a marketing scam.

Therefore, were I to underprice Alphascript, and fairly and clearly market that the content is copied from Wikipedia, I would have very little to no sales.

It's astounding to me that so few seem to "get" this conundrum.

I phrased that poorly. I didn't mean that people are necessarily knowingly buying WP articles, although there may be a small market as was suggested earlier.

I think what you're trying to do is alert people that Alphascript is simply publishing WP articles at what seem to be very high prices. I presume your ultimate goal in this is to get Amazon to see this practice as a problem and deal with it. If you undercut Alphascript on a particular topic, say Skanderbeg, you can make clear in your description what you are selling and what Alphascript is selling. You may not sell many (or any) but if people click your listing based on price, they get a chance to see the information. Of course, Amazon is likely to ban you for this.

[Milton Roe]

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles...

Could be some of the same people who buy bottled water.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) But in fairness, some of what you "buy" in such a product is exactly what WP does not do, to "finish off" its "product." Namely, a tasteful and wise article-selection job, with good final copy-edit.

I've seen a popular science book on the chemical elements, sold at Barnes and Noble right NOW, which frankly is not nearly as good as what you'd get if you simply selected out the hundred-odd WP articles on the chemical elements, with photos and databoxes, did a final copyedit, and printed it up with a nice cover. I'm sure there are a number of topics this is true for. The trick is knowing what they are. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) And that's the whole point, no?

Cla68, I will bet, could edit a couple of very nice volumes of WP's military history which would be an excellent read.

It's all about somebody actually doing the job Sanger wanted to do, and finally selling the product in dead tree form. There's no substitute for good-taste, expertise, and that final 5% that finishes off any job. All the things that WMF and Jimbo never were able to do, or could bring themselves to do.

[CharlotteWebb]

Here's an idea - if people are willing to buy paperbacks of WP articles...

Could be some of the same people who buy bottled water.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) But in fairness, some of what you "buy" in such a product is exactly what WP does not do, to "finish off" its "product." Namely, a tasteful and wise article-selection job, with good final copy-edit.

[...]

It's all about somebody actually doing the job Sanger wanted to do, and finally selling the product in dead tree form. There's no substitute for good-taste, expertise, and that final 5% that finishes off any job. All the things that WMF and Jimbo never were able to do, or could bring themselves to do.

And apparently neither could these people (?):

A lot of the books on sale contain wiki mark-up that hasn't been removed. And the image on the front of the book about Georgia, the country, is of Georgia, the US state!

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

It is one thing to make a silk purse out of a horse's ass, but making a thousand photocopies of your butt and marketing it as a silk purse is quite another (and tends to be poorly received unless one is Linda Ronstadt).

[thekohser]

Of course, Amazon is likely to ban you for this.

I'm prepared for that. It's the same company that invested $10 million in Jimbo's Wikia and its trampoline, so doing something stupid would not be a new thing for Amazon.

If Amazon bans me from its Seller's list (from which I've made about $26, lifetime), what will I ever do with myself? I have so much of my self-worth and reputation riding on Amazon's opinion of me.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

One thing I haven't pointed out, but I'll also bet is a TOS violation is the fact that a co-owner of Alphascript is waltzing around Amazon, rating their products "5 stars". Are you allowed to rate your own publications?

[thekohser]

Thing is, Bibles and Shakespeare aren't typically marketed as being "by" John McBrewster.

It lists him as an editor. I'm not thrilled by the marketing, which strikes me as misleading, but my guess is that there is no license violation here, at least if they have been careful. On the other hand, Kohs, seems to me that you may have violated the Amazon TOS.

The basic idea is sound. No comment on the price, but people will pay for those books. They may not get filthy rich, but they will make money if they do it right. Actually, it's a cool way to make a buck from being an editor.

I finally noticed that my Google spam filter trapped the October 15th reply from my would-be "buyer". She said to me:

Hi there...Please cancel my order! I had no idea...I, too, will forward this to amazon and my attorney! Thank you for your honesty...It is rare these days!

Allison

[thekohser]

Just received this e-mail today:

I was getting ready to purchase a book on the apocrypha from Amazon and noted your tags... did my own due diligence to discover the Alphascript scam... Thank you for your attention to this... just think of how many people buy that crap because of the low price, without regard to what the purchase is promoting.

Thanks again.

David M. Brewer

Funny, neither Amazon Legal nor the Wikimedia Foundation's Michael Snow ever took any action (that I could detect) to limit the Alphascript scam and misuse of the Wikipedia trademark.

[A User]

Just received this e-mail today:

I was getting ready to purchase a book on the apocrypha from Amazon and noted your tags... did my own due diligence to discover the Alphascript scam... Thank you for your attention to this... just think of how many people buy that crap because of the low price, without regard to what the purchase is promoting.

Thanks again.

David M. Brewer

Funny, neither Amazon Legal nor the Wikimedia Foundation's Michael Snow ever took any action (that I could detect) to limit the Alphascript scam and misuse of the Wikipedia trademark.

Four months later and still no legal action has been taken. The number of Alphascript 'titles' have expanded in the meantime. This is a good reason why people shouldn't contribute to WP. There are unscrupulous scammers who are quite willing to profit from contributions made under the pretext of 'free' knowledge.

This post has been edited by WikiWatch:

[thekohser]

Four months later and still no legal action has been taken. The number of Alphascript 'titles' have expanded in the meantime. This is a good reason why people shouldn't contribute to WP. There are unscrupulous scammers who are quite willing to profit from contributions made under the pretext of 'free' knowledge.

I don't know if that's a good reason for people not to contribute to Wikipedia, but it's certainly a good reason not to contribute money to the Wikimedia Foundation. If they won't actively work on a "cease and desist" response to something as fraudulent as this, what exactly are donors paying Mike Godwin for?

[thekohser]

Alphascript Publishing is now nearing 40,000 titles on Amazon.com.

You would think that Amazon itself would want to shut them down, just on the basis of clogging their servers with this garbage. But, then again, if they're making one sale a day off of any of these 40,000 pages, I guess the Amazon commission cut would pay for the storage space.

[cookiehead]

Some deutschefellow has a boner against Amazon for it's "collaboration" in selling "books" from some probably scammy publisher. Apparently taking WikiPedia articles and publishing them as books.

As if there already aren't enough crappy "books" around with lousy proof-reading and lack of editorial judgement.

Well, the person in question is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Playmobilonhishorse


Get a load of that user page. Can you say "My sole purpose on Wikipedia is to advocate for a legal case brought against "Dr. Wolfgang Philipp Müller." I knew you could.

So this person posts a blog, user submitted type entry on a German equivalent of "hot e-deals.com". Then uses the German-American gray area of laziness in verifying sources to use it as a "reliable source" about this "controversy" on the Amazon page. Yet there are no WP:RS anywhere reporting on this "controversy".

Matter discussed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Rel...d#Preisgenau.de

[thekohser]

Edit: post made irrelevant, thanks to mods helpfully moving the errant thread into this one.

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[lilburne]

Just a thought but most wikipedia articles are built up from a couple of paragraphs copied from elsewhere followed by a load of minor edits. I can't see that changing 'Famous' to 'Notable', or adding a punctuation is actually copyrightable. Also being an encyclopaedia most of it is supposedly facts, which aren't copyrightable either. IMO the only copyrightable content on there exists in the trolls, the talk pages, and the images.

[milowent]

Some deutschefellow has a boner against Amazon for it's "collaboration" in selling "books" from some probably scammy publisher. Apparently taking WikiPedia articles and publishing them as books.

yes, this comes up from time to time. my avatar is the badge that the company added to the front cover of their new "publications" after the last round of outcries against them.

[thekohser]

Looks like SlimVirgin just discovered this scam for the first time. I thought she was a reader and participant here?

Welcome to 2009, Slim!

[Milton Roe]

Looks like SlimVirgin just discovered this scam for the first time. I thought she was a reader and participant here?

Welcome to 2009, Slim!

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that she said "her" FA article was being sold by Amazon for $49, or the fact that Amazon indeed not only does that, but says it's available too on Kindle.

For a couple of years I've pointed out that WMF could actually take the text of all the FA articles (indeed, all the articles on WP, leaving out only stubs and porn for quality not space purposes) and stick it all on one 32 GB micro-SD card. Even 64 GB, which you could put in any cellphone with a STI-MICROSD/64 port. That's GIGA, not megabytes. (No, not in the iPhone, but that's due to Apple and Jobs prejudice against plug-in anything).

So now the palpable irony. The WMF has millions which they could be using to get all print WP, or some selection of all FA articles, pics and all, on microSD for all cell phones, and even Kindle readers themselves (which now cost $150). It isn't happening. Instead, their articles are being scraped one-by-one and sold by Amazon/Kindle for thousands of times the cost. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)

I don't know how long WMF can take this, but I suspect some kind of direct deal with Kindle will be too tempting to pass up. With the profit of course going to the foundation. And then used from there for anybody's wild projects, including the usual ones that benefit Wikia in some clever and non-direct way.

But meanwhile, still no WP on micro-SDs. It's obvious, efficient, could be very cheap, and yet due to market forces, it's not going to happen soon.

Argghhhh.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/frustrated.gif)

[thekohser]

But meanwhile, still no WP on micro-SDs. It's obvious, efficient, could be very cheap, and yet due to market forces, it's not going to happen soon.

Argghhhh.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/frustrated.gif)

Is there anyone selling porn on micro-SDs? If not, then I don't see a market for Wikipedia on micro-SDs, either. If a medium hasn't already been exploited profitably for porn, then that medium is not going to be exploited at all for Wikipedia.

I'm not saying the two are related, of course, but it's sort of like another rule of thumb that I've never had disproved to me:

You will never find an Olive Garden that is not within 3 miles of McDonald's. (And usually, it's less than 1 mile away.) In this case, there actually is a relationship between the two. Darden Restaurants, when selecting potential locations for a new Olive Garden, examines whether or not there is a successful McDonald's franchise nearby. If so, they contend that the market would be able to sustain an Olive Garden, too. They let McDonald's do the dirty work of site selection, in other words.

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[Text]

You will never find an Olive Garden that is not within 3 miles of McDonald's. (And usually, it's less than 1 mile away.) In that case, there is a relationship between the two. Darden Restaurants, when selecting potential locations for a new Olive Garden, examines whether or not there is a successful McDonald's franchise nearby. If so, they contend that the market would be able to sustain an Olive Garden, too. They let McDonald's do the dirty work of site selection, in other words.

Is it a symbiotic relationship or a parasitic relationship? And how does that work for Wikipedia and porn? If there are people who bother to read pages about Medieval History, then many more will bother with accessing porn material over there?

[Milton Roe]

But meanwhile, still no WP on micro-SDs. It's obvious, efficient, could be very cheap, and yet due to market forces, it's not going to happen soon.

Argghhhh.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/frustrated.gif)

Is there anyone selling porn on micro-SDs? If not, then I don't see a market for Wikipedia on micro-SDs, either. If a medium hasn't already been exploited profitably for porn, then that medium is not going to be exploited at all for Wikipedia.

And your basis for this reasoning is what? It's happened ONCE with the internet and you generalize from this single case?

There is some text porn on both Kindle and on SD cards, but with SD you need a reader, and portable porn suffers from poor resolution screens (porn is inherrently much more visual than text-based material). So it's not a very natural combination. Whereas, Kindle and text readers works much better for an encyclopedia.

And why would anybody put porn text on an SD anyway? As a business model, it sucks. Wikipedia has never HAD a business model. So your argument falls flat, there. Porn survives on the internet by ads and by serving as a leader to get clients into stuff they DO pay for. Wikipedia can only do a little of that (with Wikia) and it's at the limit, now.

I do wonder what will happen to WP when its donations dry up and it has to pay for itself by commercializing its content. The fact that an organization is non-profit does NOT mean that it can't make any money-- it only puts great constraints on what it use the money FOR. The Red Cross charges people for blood, just as an example. But they can't make any stockholders or owners any money doing that (since there aren't any owners). They have to use it to pay for the services that process the blood. WMF could presumably use license fees to pay for server charges and programmers and office space and Jimbo's expensive wine. Well, on that last one, the COO would probably geek again. But many a non-profit does pay expense accounts of this type, as well as fat salaries.

WP might end up licensing or commercializing its content in some way to keep itself financially afloat in the future. One very obvious way would be a license for a download to a Kindle 4 or whatever, or an SD card containing WP, where some of the cost is some sort of "licence-fee." Right now, Amazon/Kindle uses SD cards and 3G downloads, but they also use a proprietary content format, and they charge on a lot of personal items to convert to that format. They also keep 1/3 to 2/3 (approximate) of the profits on stuff they sell under copyright, splitting the rest with those who control the copyright.* Such a deal could be done with WMF. Again, subject to restrictions on what a 501-c-3 can do with the money it "makes."

* In a famous case, Kindle owners who downloaded Orwell's 1984, then had Kindle electronically erase their copies when it later decided it had no rights to distribute 1984. This was quite Orwellian, a fact which escaped nobody's notice. Lawsuits ensued. Amazon won't do that again.

[Eva Destruction]

WP might end up licensing or commercializing its content in some way to keep itself financially afloat in the future. One very obvious way would be a license for a download to a Kindle 4 or whatever, or an SD card containing WP, where some of the cost is licence-free. Right now, Kindle uses a proprietary format, and they charge on a lot of personal items to convert to that format. They also keep 1/3 to 2/3 (approximate) of the profits on stuff they sell under copyright, splitting the rest with those who control the copyright. Such a deal could be done with WMF. Again, subject to restrictions on what a 501-c-3 can do with the money it "makes."

Jimbo is planning this. Quite how it's been "in development" since 2003 is anyone's guess, but since Wikipedia is currently plastered with "please check this list of proposed articles for inclusion" notices (example) I presume there's actually going to be some movement on this.

[Milton Roe]

WP might end up licensing or commercializing its content in some way to keep itself financially afloat in the future. One very obvious way would be a license for a download to a Kindle 4 or whatever, or an SD card containing WP, where some of the cost is licence-free. Right now, Kindle uses a proprietary format, and they charge on a lot of personal items to convert to that format. They also keep 1/3 to 2/3 (approximate) of the profits on stuff they sell under copyright, splitting the rest with those who control the copyright. Such a deal could be done with WMF. Again, subject to restrictions on what a 501-c-3 can do with the money it "makes."

Jimbo is planning this. Quite how it's been "in development" since 2003 is anyone's guess, but since Wikipedia is currently plastered with "please check this list of proposed articles for inclusion" notices (example) I presume there's actually going to be some movement on this.

Yes, they're working hard on WP 0.8 now, with the goal of a big electronic off-line production when they make it to "1.0". So far as I can tell, however, they're thinking in terms of CD's and DVD's, and it' hasn't hit anybody that they strip the text and go to SD, Kindle-readers, and webphones (without needing to connect, so you can read on an airplane). They're nashing their teeth at the people who have done this with proprietary WP-readers, but that's how THOSE people make their money. There's a whole generation of generic text-readers coming up (we're already at Kindle 3.0-- probably a breakthrough in the market) and many webphone e-book aps. The obvious "gap" is WP not being able to filter the cuss words out of its content, and so on. Nor get rid of all the IP vandalism they'll allowed in, over the years, without a lot of real "work."

So, there is karma. But in the meantime, it means that a decently clean version of WP best articles aren't available offline. Which is pretty silly, considering.

[TungstenCarbide]

... For a couple of years I've pointed out that WMF could actually take the text of all the FA articles (indeed, all the articles on WP, leaving out only stubs and porn for quality not space purposes) and stick it all on one 32 GB micro-SD card. Even 64 GB, which you could put in any cellphone with a STI-MICROSD/64 port.

...

I don't know how long WMF can take this, but I suspect some kind of direct deal with Kindle will be too tempting to pass up. With the profit of course going to the foundation. And then used from there for anybody's wild projects, including the usual ones that benefit Wikia in some clever and non-direct way.

But meanwhile, still no WP on micro-SDs. It's obvious, efficient, could be very cheap, and yet due to market forces, it's not going to happen soon...

I've often thought that one could make a magazine out of Wikipedia's FA's and image galleries. It could be like an unseemly version of National Geographic.

[dtobias]

Dalmatia is where Dalmatians come from, all 101 of them, isn't it?

Of course, all the morons of the world insist on misspelling it "Dalmations". Probably the same people who write "loose" instead of "lose", and "replay" instead of "reply".

[thekohser]

It looks like even European university libraries are dumber than us here at Wikipedia Review, having purchased some of those duds from Alphascript for their library shelves, only to realize...

"Obviously, I am appalled that we have bought a useless book."
-- Lower Saxony State Library spokeswoman Marita Simon

[A User]

These books don't deserve two stars - they deserve no stars. They have ripped off the work of people who edited in good faith, knowing they were contributing to free knowledge. Charging over $30 for a book in which the original editors dont receive a cent however is an absolute disgrace.

[thekohser]

...I reported Alphascript Publishing to the GNU Foundation, to Amazon's legal department, and to the Federal Trade Commission. I also later notified Mike Godwin about how every Alphascript cover on the copied-from-Wikipedia books has a green sticker that says "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles!" But, Mike was offended that I'd bring this to his attention. He said, "What the hell is wrong with you?" I guess he doesn't care when for-profit publishers shit on the Wikipedia trade name and deceptively use Amazon to repurpose Wikipedia content for profit.

Flash forward, more than 20 months later, and I get this e-mail from Amazon today (because I was selling hard-copy print-outs of Wikipedia articles as "copies" of the Alphascript garbage, as a ruse to warn prospective buyers what was happening):

Notice: Policy Warning

From: Amazon.com Seller Performance

12:08 PM

Hello from Amazon.

We are currently removing a number of listings for recopied media products on Amazon.com, including material obtained from the internet and sold in a printed format.

Our records indicate that you have offered this type of product for sale on Amazon.com and you may be affected by this removal. Listed beneath our signature are examples of this item type, though it may not be an exhaustive list of the products we removed.

As stated in our Policies regarding Prohibited Content media transferred from one format to another is prohibited.

Please note that you will not be penalized for the first-time cancellation of these listings. However, we prohibit re-listing products on Amazon.com once it is brought to your attention that sales of those products are not permitted. Any further listing of these products on Amazon.com may result in the loss of your selling privileges.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Looks like our buddies at Alphascript and their ilk are (at some point) no longer going to be able to (ab)use Amazon customers with fake "books".

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[Milton Roe]

These books don't deserve two stars - they deserve no stars. They have ripped off the work of people who edited in good faith, knowing they were contributing to free knowledge. Charging over $30 for a book in which the original editors dont receive a cent however is an absolute disgrace.

Boy, I hope you never find out about the price of science research journals and what authors of the papers those journals publish, are paid. Your head may explode. Did you know that authors sometimes pay journals?

Amazon gets on its high-horse here, but I think the real problem is that Amazon figures it's not getting its fair share of the cut on WP writing when it's published other than on the web. Are they going to refuse to sell e-reader (Kindle) versions of "WP offline"? Or sell them at cost, with no profit for themselves? I don't think so.

The truth of the matter is that authors have been screwed by publishers since the dawn of time, much as is the case with actors and studios, and music/vocal artists and recording companies (until very, very recently, as actors and others have managed to put together strong unions).

Writers of books and essays don't have a strong union. Amazon and Wikipedia thus figure that THEY should have the sole right to screw writers. Who are these other people who want to come between, as publishing middlemen? At $30 they obviously charge too much to be "real" editors! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif)

Er, don't they? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Detective]

The truth of the matter is that authors have been screwed by publishers since the dawn of time ...
Writers of books and essays don't have a strong union.

There's a hilarious book about Lewis Carroll's relationship with his publishers. He just told them how much he was going to get from the sales of his books and how much they would get. He also got them to run all sorts of errands for him, like buying him theatre tickets (specifying exactly where he wanted to sit). I don't suppose anyone would get away with that now.

[EricBarbour]

Just checked Amazon again, and they are still listing 20,617 of those "books"......

[thekohser]

Just checked Amazon again, and they are still listing 20,617 of those "books"......

Down to 20,587 now. At this rate, they'll all be gone by Christmas. Of 2013.

[thekohser]

Just checked Amazon again, and they are still listing 20,617 of those "books"......

Down to 20,587 now. At this rate, they'll all be gone by Christmas. Of 2013.

Down to less than 13,000 now. I'm impressed.

Here's what gets my goat, though.

Just today, in response to a very similar publishing rip-off scam, Ryan Kaldari thinks he's cavalry coming to the rescue of the WMF brand by "notifying the WMF legal department".

Heads up, Ryan! Back in October 2009, I alerted WMF legal eagle Mike Godwin to the fact that VDM Publishing's printing the front-cover tagline, "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles!" was likely an unauthorized use of the Wikipedia trade name in commerce.

Guess what Godwin's response to me was?

There is no need to copy me on this exchange. Please remove mnemonic@gmail.com from your respective lists.

And later...

What the hell is wrong with you? Don't you have a job somewhere?

Get a life.

Note that almost exactly one year later, Godwin would be out of his job at the Wikimedia Foundation.

I wonder if ol' Geoff Brigham will handle this particular publishing corruption a little smarter than Mike Godwin did?

[mnemonic]

Just checked Amazon again, and they are still listing 20,617 of those "books"......

Down to 20,587 now. At this rate, they'll all be gone by Christmas. Of 2013.

Down to less than 13,000 now. I'm impressed.

Here's what gets my goat, though.

Just today, in response to a very similar publishing rip-off scam, Ryan Kaldari thinks he's cavalry coming to the rescue of the WMF brand by "notifying the WMF legal department".

Heads up, Ryan! Back in October 2009, I alerted WMF legal eagle Mike Godwin to the fact that VDM Publishing's printing the front-cover tagline, "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles!" was likely an unauthorized use of the Wikipedia trade name in commerce.

Guess what Godwin's response to me was?

There is no need to copy me on this exchange. Please remove mnemonic@gmail.com from your respective lists.

And later...

What the hell is wrong with you? Don't you have a job somewhere?

Get a life.

Note that almost exactly one year later, Godwin would be out of his job at the Wikimedia Foundation.

I wonder if ol' Geoff Brigham will handle this particular publishing corruption a little smarter than Mike Godwin did?

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

[Emperor]

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

Eh what's your point? You don't like Kohs or something?

[mnemonic]

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

Eh what's your point? You don't like Kohs or something?

I think Kohs is kind of awe-inspiring.

[lilburne]

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

Eh what's your point? You don't like Kohs or something?

I think Kohs is kind of awe-inspiring.

Hey whilst you are here - It looks like the WMF got a $500K bung from Google for SOPA, did you get any of it, for past services?

[SB_Johnny]

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

Eh what's your point? You don't like Kohs or something?

I think Kohs is kind of awe-inspiring.

Clearly your awe threshold is low, Mr. Godwin. Which explains your willingness to kiss the feet of that creepy guy Jimbo.

You realize, I hope, that the only things that separate you from Mr. Kohs are that you're on the opposite side, and you happen to have a meme law named after you, right? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

[Web Fred]

In the Kohs-centric universe, everything that happens is caused by somebody's response or non-response to Kohs. He is the fixed center of the turning world.

Eh what's your point? You don't like Kohs or something?

I think Kohs is kind of awe-inspiring.

I suppose that if I use my 'favourite' word to describe Greggy-Weggy the I'd end up upping my deleted message total?