Sanger strikes back, Is Jimmy a liar? Options Rating

[Bottled_Spider]

Jimbo set up a project with no hoops

That's true. But on October 4th, 2004, that deplorable situation was remedied. Delicious and nutritious.

; where you could write something and see it immediately appear in an article and on google; and he knew when to back off and let people get on with it.

That they did; see how the article has improved since those early days. Wikilicious!

[CharlotteWebb]

Jimbo set up a project with no hoops

That's true. But on October 4th, 2004, that deplorable situation was remedied. Delicious and nutritious.

; where you could write something and see it immediately appear in an article and on google; and he knew when to back off and let people get on with it.

That they did; see how the article has improved since those early days. Wikilicious!

Well, the pop culture section isn't properly labeled and it also fails to mention Queen Tilli from Still Life with Woodpecker.

[Jon Awbrey]

Jimbo set up a project with no hoops

That's true. But on October 4th, 2004, that deplorable situation was remedied. Delicious and nutritious.

where you could write something and see it immediately appear in an article and on google; and he knew when to back off and let people get on with it.

That they did; see how the article has improved since those early days. Wikilicious!

Well, the pop culture section isn't properly labeled and it also fails to mention Queen Tilli from Still Life with Woodpecker.

Hoop Dee Doo …

Yours Drooly,

Abigham Linkin

[luke]

[...][...] maybe I'm being premature, but Dr. Sanger, or "Larry" if you prefer, hasn't yet allowed either our WR blog's trackback, or my own direct comment, to appear in his "Updates..." blog entry. Maybe he thinks it would just further inflame the situation, though I'm not sure how much worse he thinks it can get...?

Or maybe he just doesn't like me very much!

I guess he's AFK ....hasn't updated his CZ blog recently. Greg Kohs posted a link to this thread tho (see comment #5) so I guess he should get to see how nice you are

Just to underscore the point one more blasted time for good measure, the Grade A Choice Irony is that Sanger and Wales have spawned between them a culture that don't know much about Truth, that don't really care all that much about Verifiability, that devotes itself almost wholly to Plausible Deniability. And Jimbo leads by example, showing his Wiki-Φlock how to plausibly deny the Truth until Kingdom.Com. If you think that brand of arrogance doesn't pervade the whole enterprise, then you need to wake up and smell the wiki-poop asmokin' on your doorstep.

See also reply #4 on the thread link I posted earlier:

First of all, Larry, this is simply disingenuous. YOU were the person who actually started to raise specific issues that you claimed were not covered. I politely responded, as did the author of the article, but you insisted on a long dialogue. We did not ignore your arguments, but they are basically wrong. .. Secondly, I told you after extended debate that I considered your insistent demands to include specific mention of two American banks as an abuse of power. You were using your position as Editor in Chief to influence an article that otherwise you would not have been able to influence. I had to step in to protect the author from being intimidated by you. Upon so doing, I found that I was then being accused of having written the article. It is very clear from the history, the style of English, and many other pieces of evidence, that I had nothing at all to do with the writing of it and was acting in an editorial capacity only. .. Therefore, this whole charade of consulting people in the Forum about how generous you should be in allowing criticism is ridiculous and a deliberate distraction from the reality of what actually happened. Those who want to know can read the Talk page of "Crash of 2008". .. Anyway, I have resigned over this whole issue. Since you will not allow CZ editors to make editorial decisions unless your personal opinions are in accord with them, the future of CZ is compromised as an expert-led encyclopedia. We tried to gently lead you, and were met with stubborn refusal.

Martin was secretary to the CZ Editorial Council until his resignation in October 2008.

Expert views should perhaps be treated as having a special degree of authority in both CZ and WP

[Heat]

Posted on Wikien-l on April 10

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Larry Sanger <sanger-lists@citizendium.org> wrote:
> I can recognize when I am no longer welcome. I didn't really believe I ever
> was welcome to begin with, but I was willing to try. I've always been
> optimistic.
>
> I assume that, since the self-appointed silencers among you are apparently
> operating with impunity, I could not possibly continue to press my case here
> without continuing to cause an uproar among them. So I will stop. Those
> who wanted to silence me have done so successfully, just as your fearless
> leader did on [[User talk:Jimmy Wales]].
>
> On the issue of whether I am entitled to speak out here, I did want to make
> two points.
>
> First, whether or not it really is, Wikipedia (like Citizendium and other
> similar projects) ought to be democratic, open, and devoted to free speech
> in a certain sense. The sense is that, as long as a person is generally
> abiding by the rules of the community, he has a right to speak out in public
> forums, even if others find it "annoying." If a mob of others are outraged
> at what he says, they have the right to try to refute him (under the same
> reasonable rules); but they do not have the right to demand that he be
> silenced. As soon as they gain such authority, the mob is de facto making
> the rules, which is fine for people who love mobs, but absolutely terrible
> for most of humanity and for anybody who cares about justice and other
> things that cannot be made into silly acronyms.
>
> Second, virtually all of the arguments of those claiming that I lack the
> right to air my concerns on this list work as arguments that I should not
> have been allowed to post in the first place. Surely the moderators were
> right to allow me to post, and I was grateful to them for letting me do so.
> Nevertheless, since first posting, all I have been doing is defending the
> relevance, or significance, of my open letter to Jimmy Wales, or my right to
> make it--not really discussing its content at all. That's a pretty sad
> state of affairs, I think. I actually think that a large majority of
> Wikipedians probably sympathize with my letter, but that they are
> intimidated by those on this list who have the ability to make up arguments
> justifying censorship of someone with a serious, well-justified complaint
> about one of the most important leaders of the project.
>
> As to the attacks on Citizendium, I'm not going to bother replying. Those
> who are inclined to be sympathetic toward us will find out about us from
> more reliable sources, or from their own observation. Suffice it to say
> that the people who are lobbing the most vicious attacks either know nothing
> about the project, or are deeply philosophically opposed to it, and in
> either case, their opinion is not worth very much, as far as I'm concerned.
> As to those who might be inclined to sympathize with us, but who are
> intimidated into silence here on this list, and by mobs in general, let's
> just say that you're very welcome to join us.
>
> I do want to say one last thing to the more reasonable people in the
> community, who I know have been following this, and who stick things out in
> the face of what looks like a brainless mob: while I long ago decided I
> couldn't join you, I do admire and sympathize with your situation.
> Wikipedia is great--it's hard to abandon. There are a lot of very smart and
> decent people on Wikipedia, and if I have harsh words about the Wikipedia
> community from time to time, I hope you'll understand I'm not talking about
> you.
>
> --Larry (I'll be unsubscribing right after sending this)
>
> P.S. Apropos of nothing but a throwaway remark by someone on the list: I
> have never, ever, not even once, used any account on Wikipedia (or
> Citizendium) other than User:Larry Sanger.
>
>
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