Jimbo calls for global ban on Thekohser, and his bidding is done Options

[Abd]

I find it interesting that three out of the four people who wished Mike Lifeguard a fond "farewell" were supporters of his lock of my account. And they were the only three advocates for my block on Wikibooks.

In contrast, none of the eight people who opposed my block on Wikibooks have had anything whatsoever to say to Mike Lifeguard as he retreats, defeated, from his former feudal duchy.

Greg, generosity befits the victors. If you gloat, I guarantee it will come back to haunt you. You can note indications of what happened, and you have just presented some interesting statistical evidence, but ... be careful. This isn't over, I suspect, but I highly recommend that you back off from trying to push this further at this time.

You were right, I'd say events showed, to ask for the !vote on Wikibooks. Guido is now pushing for your unblock on meta. I'd say his argument sucks, it is very unlikely to fly, and the more that sucky arguments are used, the more that the general opinion will turn against those using them.

To be unblocked at meta, unless you get lucky with admin roulette, will take a showing that there is a decent meta purpose to your being unblocked. It's probably not enough to claim that "the block was unfair." This is a political reality.

I suggest looking at why you'd want to have access at meta. There are really only a few reasons to go there, and others can go there for you when one of those reasons arise.

And there are plenty of idiots still at meta, who don't hesitate to violate recusal policy, saw a good example today. To root these out will take time. Wikis are like silly putty, the harder you push, the stiffer they become, but they are quite plastic to a slow approach, if there is sufficient reason behind what one is pushing. Sometimes even if not! This is how, in fact, various factions have sometimes taken over. They figured out that those who were patient won.

It was an explicit argument used by William M. Connolley at one point, when one of his cabal friends complained about a minor defeat. Don't worry, he told him. They will go away or be blocked, and we will still be here. I tried to use that 'we' to demonstrate factional involvement, but ArbComm was way to bored to notice....

[Abd]

Guido is rogue, not acting on my request at all. But, if he wants to engage some minds, that's fine.

Here's what gets me.

And the blithering and drooling idiots at meta didn't notice the process error. They could have kept it quite simple. Guido, go away, until you show that Thekohser is actually asking for unblock here. You want to make a request? Get permission from him, privately, then ask that his talk page access be restored. Or he can confirm that with a email, that access was unblocked.

Instead, my guess, they wanted to take the opportunity to drub Thekohser. And the ones that might weigh in on the positive side don't because they notice the problem.

Long-term, this can be approached, but probably a need will have to be demonstrated.

Magister Mathematicae (who signs as "Drini", which WTF does that have to do with "Magister Mathematicae"?) (by the way, Abigor / Huib does the same annoying thing) (as an aside, wouldn't Wikipedia become measurably better if they just got rid of everyone who signs their name differently than their actual User name?)

Yeah. It ought to be against policy, because it confuses people until they figure out what's going on.

said that I had:

...no intention to edit or contribute.

(to Wikibooks)

This routine and gratuitous incivility is one of the major problems on WMF wikis. Originally AGF was policy on Wikipedia. Because it was so difficult to enforce, they abandoned that and made it just a guideline. That was a mistake. It would have been worthwhile exploring how to enforce it. AGF is about appearances, I think that some didn't realize that. Something can be done about appearances! But as soon as it was tolerated to pile abuse on an unpopular editor, it became common, I'm sure, if it wasn't before.

It is not necessary to abuse an editor to block him or her. That is, if editors are to be blocked only based on actual behavior. Which should be the principle! But too many wanted to cut corners.

What the f**k does Master Drini Drano Mathematickle think that all THIS was?!

Probably just one effing book. He's looking at the "big picture." or thinks he is....

Let it go, Greg, my advice. Just keep plugging away, doing the most important of the work that comes to you to do. Please watch what I'm doing on Wikiversity, sometimes I might need help. Be sure, if you do this, please, to be rigorously civil and careful, promoting the best ethical standards and exemplifying them. If you can be more civil than I, so much the better! I'm not presenting myself as a model of perfection! But I do try to keep "idiot!" here! Not there, no matter how much it might seem like just the perfect thing to say.

Seriously, someone ought to tell Mister Math Drain to get a clue and to apologize. Even if it's Guido.

Guido can point it out, but he's already established himself as a Loser, out to lunch. It was fortunate that his threat at the Public Speaker talk page didn't flip the whole thing!

One of the greatest difficulties with Wikipedia reform is that some of those advocating it are definitely cannons where the bolts holding them down broke. They are useful, sometimes, to demonstrate that there is a Problem, but .... they can sometimes slow down fixing it, because those trying to fix it can be seen as Helping That Troll.

This post has been edited by Abd: Fri 10th September 2010, 8:41pm

[Abd]

Mike.lifeguard requested removal of his steward bit today, and, of course, it was quickly granted. Farewell, Mike.lifeguard, gone to the wiki afterlife.

How he is treated by people there will likely depend on how he treated people here, life works that way, what goes around comes around. We all should pay attention to this!

[Jon Awbrey]

Abd = Wiki-Polonius

As in “Polonius Assault” …

Word To The All Too Wise — Watch Yer Arras

Jon

[Zoloft]

Abd = Wiki-Polonius

As in “Polonius Assault” …

Word To The All Too Wise — Watch Yer Arras

Jon

O, reform it altogether! And let those that play your clowns speak no more than is set down for them. For there be of them that will themselves laugh, to set on some quantity of barren spectators to laugh too, though in the mean time some necessary question of the play be then to be considered. That's villanous and shows a most pitiful ambition in the fool that uses it.

[Guido den Broeder]

Guido can point it out, but he's already established himself as a Loser, out to lunch. It was fortunate that his threat at the Public Speaker talk page didn't flip the whole thing!

Actually the 'threat' did flip the whole thing, in our favour. Wikipediots fear one thing: the competition, since they hold no power there. That is why they target me and Greg in the first place.

Sometimes, from the position of a 'loser' (i.e. a user who is no longer a contributor) you can actually accomplish more. Meta is not Wikibooks, where there are normal users around who still care.

[Guido den Broeder]

By the way, in a healthy environment requesting to unblock another user is the normal process, rather than that they should need to request this for themselves.

[SB_Johnny]

Greg, generosity befits the victors. If you gloat, I guarantee it will come back to haunt you.

What are you, the blind zen master of something? You realize Greg's a grown man, right?

[EricBarbour]

I find it interesting that three out of the four people who wished Mike Lifeguard a fond "farewell" were supporters of his lock of my account. And they were the only three advocates for my block on Wikibooks.
In contrast, none of the eight people who opposed my block on Wikibooks have had anything whatsoever to say to Mike Lifeguard as he retreats, defeated, from his former feudal duchy.

Don't kid youself, Greg. I suspect he intends to go off and hide for a few months. Let the storm go by.
Then when you least expect it, he'll log back in and ask for his admin/bureaucrat powers back.
And they will duly be handed back to him. Then? Judging from his past actions, he will go back to
removing your access on en-wiki, WB and WV, and anywhere else he can find.

Admins have pulled this crap many times before, just as a reminder.

Oh yeah, btw:

BTW, my retiring is totally unrelated. I've received a promotion that doesn't leave me in a position to contribute to WMF projects any longer. It is interesting to see, however, that many believe the universe revolves around them and their allies – mike@meta:~$ 01:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The Meta request was a total bust, so you're not off the hook just yet.

The following discussion is closed: Unblock request declined by several admins. This means there is no reason to discuss this anymore. This discussion is closed now and there is no reason to go on with this. Please use your time for other more important things. Thekohser keeps blocked on meta. Please note that further commenting here can be seen as disruption. If there is a way to decide to unblock, it should be done by officials (board members, staffs). We don't unblock him here. Thanks for understanding. -Barras 19:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Gosh, is Thekohser some kinda terrorist or something?........

[thekohser]

Greg, generosity befits the victors. If you gloat, I guarantee it will come back to haunt you. You can note indications of what happened...

Well, then, let me note that Mike.lifeguard is a serial liar and a bully. And the community finally stood up to the bully, and the person who was being picked on gave the community a lovely gift of content, as a "thank you". That's what happened.

I'll take my hauntings. I don't like liars, and I don't like bullies.

[Abd]

Greg, generosity befits the victors. If you gloat, I guarantee it will come back to haunt you. You can note indications of what happened...

Well, then, let me note that Mike.lifeguard is a serial liar and a bully. And the community finally stood up to the bully, and the person who was being picked on gave the community a lovely gift of content, as a "thank you". That's what happened.

I'll take my hauntings. I don't like liars, and I don't like bullies.

Be careful. It's catching. The "I'm right and I don't want to hear it" attitude is really just a mirror of the bully's attitude.

You won, or, more accurately, you won this tactical confrontation, with some help. Strategy, though, must be based on a more dispassionate view. Step back, think. Gather support, and shift your own positions, learn from your mistakes, let your effort be part of a groundswell, don't push the river. Let it flow, don't resist the waves, surf them.

[Jon Awbrey]

Wiki-Platitude № MCCCXXXVII —

“Neither a lawyer nor a bender bee …”

Jon

[Abd]

I find it interesting that three out of the four people who wished Mike Lifeguard a fond "farewell" were supporters of his lock of my account. And they were the only three advocates for my block on Wikibooks.
In contrast, none of the eight people who opposed my block on Wikibooks have had anything whatsoever to say to Mike Lifeguard as he retreats, defeated, from his former feudal duchy.

Don't kid youself, Greg. I suspect he intends to go off and hide for a few months. Let the storm go by.
Then when you least expect it, he'll log back in and ask for his admin/bureaucrat powers back.
And they will duly be handed back to him. Then? Judging from his past actions, he will go back to
removing your access on en-wiki, WB and WV, and anywhere else he can find.

Now is the time to build community, there is a little breathing space. Thekohser is still in exile, the global lock is still in place, so it takes unblocking process on each wiki, and that's been made difficult by the global lock, since it defeats the normal allowance, by the extensive direct blocks that were implemented, mostly by Pathoschild, of Talk page access to allow unblock requests. But what's happened is that several "countries" have admitted Thekohser as a participant. If he uses those wikis as a base to attack the Foundation or personalities, he'll lose his sanctuaries. So, I highly recommend that he stay with uncontroversial content as far as what he initiates.

But he can support moves by others. On Wikipedia, ArbComm recognized how dangerous I was to the oligarchy, thus my MYOB ban (which was indef, very unusual, and based on no specific violations of anything). But they allowed me to !vote in polls. That was wikilawyered to death by the cabal, I stopped even trying, because my personal participation just isn't that important. Unless it is. I haven't seen an example yet where it was, but I'm not watching. Greg can !vote in polls whenever he sees fit, on those wikis, and it will create almost no hazard to him, unless he goes way beyond voting into sarcastic comment when the ground isn't ready.

Most people don't like conflict. And they will assume that someone who appears to be fighting and complaining is disruptive. It's a knee-jerk, possibly instinctive, reaction. It's functional, as a first impression. People don't have the time to figure out every situation. That's why good structure is needed, so that disputes don't get presented "to the community" without having been prepared by careful process, so that all the evidence is laid out and summarized.

The most important place that Greg is free is Wikiversity. Wikiversity is designed, among other things, to study wiki science. It was part of the founding vision! But Wikiversity suffers from the same pathologies as the other wikis, it is merely that it has basic policy that can be used to overcome those pathologies. It will still take work, it will still take establishing new and more functional structure. Wikiversity must remain academic, aloof in a sense. What happened was that it became a haven for revolutionaries, and the appearance was, if not the reality -- it may have been the reality! -- that it was being used to plan "attacks."

Revolutionaries, we must remember, are attempting to improve the world. But the danger is that the disruption they can cause can do more damage than good. Academic study of society and of revolution cannot become "involvement," per se. Academia, though, can experiment, carefully, with its own process, and can develop structures that might be used elsewhere, once having been proven in a small academic environment.

It appears that the studies in "ethics," which became, sometimes, laundry lists of complaints about individuals, thus attracting supporters of the individuals to disrupt it, were undertaken without first establishing guidelines for such "research." Hence if Wikiversity is to be useful in the study of organizational ethics -- which is a framing of studies in organizational technology and psychology -- it must first establish groundrules that define what can and cannot be done. Yes, we can have a course and can publish papers on wiki history. No, we cannot become a platform from which to launch personal attacks, and if "history" becomes very current, when the "meanings" of events have not had time to become clear, it can rapidly become way too involved to be of use, it simply becomes a reflection of a conflict being studied.

Admins have pulled this crap many times before, just as a reminder.

Oh yeah, btw:

BTW, my retiring is totally unrelated. I've received a promotion that doesn't leave me in a position to contribute to WMF projects any longer. It is interesting to see, however, that many believe the universe revolves around them and their allies – mike@meta:~$ 01:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. But, then again, as Thekohser has pointed out, the guy had a habit of deceptive comment. Many times, you could see him take an action very well correlated in time with an event that would mean something significant to an ordinary person. He basically set up a test at Wikibooks: if I'm important to you, you won't unblock this troll. He staked his bits on it, really. So, when it finally became clear that yet another admin there was willing to defy him and his predictions of dire consequences, and he couldn't bring down those dire consequences, and, if he even stayed active, he might lose his bits anyway, he retired. "Just a coincidence." Right.

Yes, this is a tactic that has been used successfully by many abusive admins (and some editors pull the same trick.) When they see the train coming down the track, but before it actually arrives and process is begun to sanction, they retire. Wikis have a habit of very much disliking moot process, and if the guy is retired, why kick him when he's down? Except that if he retires when he is arguably "not under a cloud," he can then come back later, and if someone objects, they get dinged for bringing up "old stuff." Sooner or later, the community or community process will need to get wise to this trick. Here is my solution.

A process capable of removing privileges is begun, filed, with some evidence. It doesn't have to be much, and it is closed as not currently needed because of the retirement. But it's there. It's a "cloud." That cloud should be promptly noted with any "voluntary" retirement. And then it becomes possible to challenge the return.

Politically, this shouldn't be done by a single editor, it should have signatures supporting it by at least two editors, with some good reputation.

The Meta request was a total bust, so you're not off the hook just yet.

The following discussion is closed: Unblock request declined by several admins. This means there is no reason to discuss this anymore. This discussion is closed now and there is no reason to go on with this. Please use your time for other more important things. Thekohser keeps blocked on meta. Please note that further commenting here can be seen as disruption. If there is a way to decide to unblock, it should be done by officials (board members, staffs). We don't unblock him here. Thanks for understanding. -Barras 19:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Gosh, is Thekohser some kinda terrorist or something?........

Tactically, Thekohser blundered here, though he might still recover -- or it's too late, it could look like a purely political move this late. He should have popped in, in some way -- IP probably okay if confirmed on a wiki where he can edit, but he also has email access on meta, so he could confirm it that way -- and said that this request wasn't coming from him, apologizing for the disruption, and thanking Guido for his kind intentions, but asking him to stand down.

In other words, he'd make himself look, and would, in fact be, cooperative and reasonable, the opposite of disruptive. For him to be unblocked at meta, he'll need to be globally unlocked first, and there is a very clear way to that. But he can't be the one to do it. It should be done by admins from various local wikis, and it should be done when there is a need. I don't see the need yet.

This is the secret: to be effective in transforming wiki functionality, one does not need to be an admin, and one doesn't even need to be unblocked. It's necessary to step out of the game, a bit, to understand it, to rise above it, and begin to design it, to shift the rules. If the new design is good, and if it can be demonstrated in even small ways, it can grow naturally. People don't like to be pushed, and it can take them time to understand new ideas. It takes patience and persistence, taking small steps, with only occasional crisis points where larger shifts can be made.

As I see it, the "new design" is mostly a more practical and efficient realization of the original vision, bringing in what has long been known about organizational structure, while preserving the advantages of wiki freedom and distributed decision-making as the routine operational practice.

This post has been edited by Abd: Sat 11th September 2010, 4:00pm

[thekohser]

Tactically, Thekohser blundered here, though he might still recover -- or it's too late, it could look like a purely political move this late. He should have popped in, in some way -- IP probably okay if confirmed on a wiki where he can edit, but he also has email access on meta, so he could confirm it that way -- and said that this request wasn't coming from him, apologizing for the disruption, and thanking Guido for his kind intentions, but asking him to stand down.

In other words, he'd make himself look, and would, in fact be, cooperative and reasonable, the opposite of disruptive.

I thought about doing that, but it was a bit too much effort for a project as infected and infested as Meta. Plus, I didn't want to give away the IP that I was on.

[Jon Awbrey]

Tactically, Thekohser blundered here, though he might still recover — or it's too late, it could look like a purely political move this late. He should have popped in, in some way — IP probably okay if confirmed on a wiki where he can edit, but he also has email access on meta, so he could confirm it that way — and said that this request wasn't coming from him, apologizing for the disruption, and thanking Guido for his kind intentions, but asking him to stand down.

In other words, he'd make himself look, and would, in fact be, cooperative and reasonable, the opposite of disruptive.

I thought about doing that, but it was a bit too much effort for a project as infected and infested as Meta. Plus, I didn't want to give away the IP that I was on.

“Fucking Coward”

Jon

[Abd]

Tactically, Thekohser blundered here, though he might still recover — or it's too late, it could look like a purely political move this late. He should have popped in, in some way — IP probably okay if confirmed on a wiki where he can edit, but he also has email access on meta, so he could confirm it that way — and said that this request wasn't coming from him, apologizing for the disruption, and thanking Guido for his kind intentions, but asking him to stand down.

In other words, he'd make himself look, and would, in fact be, cooperative and reasonable, the opposite of disruptive.

I thought about doing that, but it was a bit too much effort for a project as infected and infested as Meta. Plus, I didn't want to give away the IP that I was on.

“Fucking Coward”

Jon

He's paid his dues, Jon. You haven't, not for a long time.

Greg, you could still do it this way. Send an email to a reasonably friendly or responsible steward, saying what I mentioned, assuming it's true. It is, you know, you just acknowledged that you thought the place too "infected and infested." Not stirring up shit in an infected and infested place is sound public policy! Ask them to post a brief note to this effect. It is very unlikely to hurt, and may help, in the long run. Start preparing for next year, and the next. It is going to take time to turn this mess around, that's obvious.

Unless some light bulb goes off in Jimbo's head, or in Sue Gardner's. It's not impossible, but I would not hold my breath. I intend to ask, but not abruptly and very carefully. Sometimes you only get one chance.

Before going to Jimbo or the Board, I want to make sure not only that I know exactly what I want or am suggesting, but that I have evidence it will work, or have a specific plan for harmless testing, and can show that it will be likely to fulfill their legitimate goals. There are some very level-headed people involved at high levels, along with the other kind. I think they are looking for solutions, though not necessarily in the right places.

Meanwhile, I'm taking small steps, moving toward minor demonstrations.

[Jon Awbrey]

Tactically, Thekohser blundered here, though he might still recover — or it's too late, it could look like a purely political move this late. He should have popped in, in some way — IP probably okay if confirmed on a wiki where he can edit, but he also has email access on meta, so he could confirm it that way — and said that this request wasn't coming from him, apologizing for the disruption, and thanking Guido for his kind intentions, but asking him to stand down.

In other words, he'd make himself look, and would, in fact be, cooperative and reasonable, the opposite of disruptive.

I thought about doing that, but it was a bit too much effort for a project as infected and infested as Meta. Plus, I didn't want to give away the IP that I was on.

“Fucking Coward”

Jon

He's paid his dues, Jon. You haven't, not for a long time.

Greg, you could still do it this way. Send an email to a reasonably friendly or responsible steward, saying what I mentioned, assuming it's true. It is, you know, you just acknowledged that you thought the place too "infected and infested". Not stirring up shit in an infected and infested place is sound public policy! Ask them to post a brief note to this effect. It is very unlikely to hurt, and may help, in the long run. Start preparing for next year, and the next. It is going to take time to turn this mess around, that's obvious.

Unless some light bulb goes off in Jimbo's head, or in Sue Gardner's. It's not impossible, but I would not hold my breath. I intend to ask, but not abruptly and very carefully. Sometimes you only get one chance.

Before going to Jimbo or the Board, I want to make sure not only that I know exactly what I want or am suggesting, but that I have evidence it will work, or have a specific plan for harmless testing, and can show that it will be likely to fulfill their legitimate goals. There are some very level-headed people involved at high levels, along with the other kind. I think they are looking for solutions, though not necessarily in the right places.

Meanwhile, I'm taking small steps, moving toward minor demonstrations.

Omigawd, what a Self-Inflating Gasbag you are. It's clear that you and Ottava deserve each other, just do us all a favor — get a room and spare us the moaning.

Jon

[thekohser]

Greg, you could still do it this way. Send an email to a reasonably friendly or responsible steward, saying what I mentioned, assuming...

Seriously, Abd... not worth my time or effort.

[Abd]

Greg, you could still do it this way. Send an email to a reasonably friendly or responsible steward, saying what I mentioned, assuming...

Seriously, Abd... not worth my time or effort.

You have sovereignty over your own time and effort, Greg. I'm merely some sort of hybrid between your advisor, community advocate, and the court jester.

[Abd]

Omigawd, what a Self-Inflating Gasbag you are. It's clear that you and Ottava deserve each other, just do us all a favor — get a room and spare us the moaning.

Jon

We do have our rooms, but you keep eavesdropping and making loud farting noises. I'm generating nothing but Illuminating Gas, burning it carefully, in quantities sufficient to light the place up so stuff can be seen, by those who want to look, but, on the other hand, it seems those farting noises also have quite a stink. How about you stick a lit match up your ass? Save us all from that smell. If you video it, you could have a hit on Youtube. Tastefully presented, of course.