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_ The Wikipedia Annex _ Ban Appeal
Posted by: Ottava
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Ottava thread is interesting as it brings out the crux of the issues surrounding my ban as it stands now:
1. How long was my ban? One year.
2. How often could I appeal? As often as I wanted after my ban was half way. There is no limitation to frequency of appeals and the words "six months" are no where to be found.
3. What does probation mean? It does not mean being banned. Probation, by definition, means release with restrictions. However, SirFozzie is trying to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava_Rima_restrictions#Ottava_Rima_-_Conditions_for_return_to_editing to say that I can have my ban extended, when that is not the case.
From Ncmvocalist: "The ban is only "extended" if Ottava does not agree to comply with the probationary terms."
Funny, because there were no terms offered. I was quite willing to agree to any and all terms. If a criminal gets probation and the judge fails to set terms of the probation, the criminal does not go to jail but is free without restriction.
You'd think Newyorkbrad and the other lawyers who sit on ArbCom would notice this as they have to deal with such things such as the meaning of probation.
I emailed ArbCom to discuss terms of my probation. ArbCom did not offer any. That is their fault, and a clear refusal for them to restrict me. As far as I am concerned and as those of many admin and Stewards, once my one year time is up I am no longer banned and if the Arbitrators don't to restrict me then that is their problem.
Posted by: Craftyminion
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:00pm) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Ottava thread is interesting as it brings out the crux of the issues surrounding my ban as it stands now:
1. How long was my ban? One year.
2. How often could I appeal? As often as I wanted after my ban was half way. There is no limitation to frequency of appeals and the words "six months" are no where to be found.
3. What does probation mean? It does not mean being banned. Probation, by definition, means release with restrictions. However, SirFozzie is trying to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava_Rima_restrictions#Ottava_Rima_-_Conditions_for_return_to_editing to say that I can have my ban extended, when that is not the case.
From Ncmvocalist: "The ban is only "extended" if Ottava does not agree to comply with the probationary terms."
Funny, because there were no terms offered. I was quite willing to agree to any and all terms. If a criminal gets probation and the judge fails to set terms of the probation, the criminal does not go to jail but is free without restriction.
You'd think Newyorkbrad and the other lawyers who sit on ArbCom would notice this as they have to deal with such things such as the meaning of probation.
I emailed ArbCom to discuss terms of my probation. ArbCom did not offer any. That is their fault, and a clear refusal for them to restrict me. As far as I am concerned and as those of many admin and Stewards, once my one year time is up I am no longer banned and if the Arbitrators don't to restrict me then that is their problem.
I really hope they don't let you back in. You're just the most awful person I've ever encountered.
Nothing personal, but after the whole Wikiversity thing I feel I can say without fear of contradiciton that you have all the charm of a cornered rattlesnake.
Best of luck with the appeal.
Posted by: lilburne
QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Thu 16th December 2010, 12:06pm)
Nothing personal, but after the whole Wikiversity thing I feel I can say without fear of contradiciton that you have all the charm of a cornered rattlesnake.
Best of luck with the appeal.
What is wrong with cornered rattlesnakes?
I find him amusing. In any case when OV starts up the antics he's lost the argument and plot anyway. Poke with a stick from a distance, that particular rattlesnake's strike is so slow and predictable even Hawkins could dodge it.
Posted by: Craftyminion
QUOTE
What is wrong with cornered rattlesnakes?
Nothing, except they have such a chilling resemblance to Ottava.
QUOTE
I find him amusing. In any case when OV starts up the antics he's lost the argument and plot anyway. Poke with a stick from a distance, that particular rattlesnake's strike is so slow and predictable even Hawkins could dodge it.
I find him amusing too. What's more amusing is denying him the thing he wants like nothing else. Readmittance to WP.
I suspect for Ottava it's a bit like taking a shit. He can't wait to have it but once he's got it he won't want it any more.
Or such like.
Posted by: lilburne
QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Thu 16th December 2010, 12:47pm)
I find him amusing too. What's more amusing is denying him the thing he wants like nothing else. Readmittance to WP.
Well it is demeaning and it denies others the chance to experience the humour.
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Thu 16th December 2010, 7:06am)
I really hope they don't let you back in. You're just the most awful person I've ever encountered.
I assume that you never met my brother-in-law.
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(lilburne @ Thu 16th December 2010, 1:24pm)
QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Thu 16th December 2010, 12:47pm)
I find him amusing too. What's more amusing is denying him the thing he wants like nothing else. Readmittance to WP.
Well it is demeaning and it denies others the chance to experience the humour.
There is a term, parrhesia , that became important in Hellenistic philosophy. It was pretty close in meaning to the 1960's phrase "speak truth to authority", and Michel Foucault gave an interesting series of lectures on the subject at UC Berkeley. http://foucault.info/documents/parrhesia/
In the context of Wikipedia, that means taking on administrative favoritism, and the irrational or self-serving use of administrative authority. The reverse, those who back up the administrators by taking on their targets, is not parrhesia. That is self-serving ass-kissing. I never had any use for ass-kissers, but respect those who take on authority, even when I do not entirely agree with their point. After all taking on authority takes some guts.
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Thu 16th December 2010, 7:06am)
I really hope they don't let you back in. You're just the most awful person I've ever encountered.
Nothing personal, but after the whole Wikiversity thing I feel I can say without fear of contradiciton that you have all the charm of a cornered rattlesnake.
Best of luck with the appeal.
From Crafty on AN:
"Yeah that maybe so, but we all know you're just fixin' to let Ottava Hussein Rima back in here to advance your lieberal agenda."
Does that confuse anyone else? I've never been political on Wikipedia but if I was it probably wouldn't be "liberal".
Posted by: lilburne
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 2:53pm)
I've never been political on Wikipedia but if I was it probably wouldn't be "liberal".
Don't be a Protestant. Education is one of the Liberal arts. So by definition if you have ever done any of that you're a liberal.
Posted by: melloden
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 10:00am)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Ottava thread is interesting as it brings out the crux of the issues surrounding my ban as it stands now:
1. How long was my ban? One year.
2. How often could I appeal? As often as I wanted after my ban was half way. There is no limitation to frequency of appeals and the words "six months" are no where to be found.
3. What does probation mean? It does not mean being banned. Probation, by definition, means release with restrictions. However, SirFozzie is trying to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava_Rima_restrictions#Ottava_Rima_-_Conditions_for_return_to_editing to say that I can have my ban extended, when that is not the case.
From Ncmvocalist: "The ban is only "extended" if Ottava does not agree to comply with the probationary terms."
Funny, because there were no terms offered. I was quite willing to agree to any and all terms. If a criminal gets probation and the judge fails to set terms of the probation, the criminal does not go to jail but is free without restriction.
You'd think Newyorkbrad and the other lawyers who sit on ArbCom would notice this as they have to deal with such things such as the meaning of probation.
I emailed ArbCom to discuss terms of my probation. ArbCom did not offer any. That is their fault, and a clear refusal for them to restrict me. As far as I am concerned and as those of many admin and Stewards, once my one year time is up I am no longer banned and if the Arbitrators don't to restrict me then that is their problem.
Did you expect anything different? When ArbCom doesn't like you, they ignore you. Then they say that they made everything quite clear from the very beginning.
Posted by: carbuncle
QUOTE(melloden @ Thu 16th December 2010, 4:46pm)
Did you expect anything different? When ArbCom doesn't like you, they ignore you. Then they say that they made everything quite clear from the very beginning.
Wait, is that why ArbCom ignores me? Now my feelings are hurt.
Posted by: Text
Forget appealing bans. Thekohser did it, succeeded in remaining around, and he couldn't resist remaining in the corruptocracy for a month, so he got blocked again.
The others who remain around after bans are robots like Betacommand.
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
Getting banned from Wikipedia is no indicator of bad character. Caring about being banned is. Anyone who is banned and cares about it loses all appeal.
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 16th December 2010, 12:55pm)
Getting banned from Wikipedia is no indicator of bad character. Caring about being banned is. Anyone who is banned and cares about it loses all appeal.
So, if I "win" an appeal, I really lose appeal? Kinda clever.
Posted by: Text
QUOTE
So, if I "win" an appeal, I really lose appeal? Kinda clever.
You don't win on any virtual world, you keep playing until you get bored and move on. How you play also influences the audience who looks at the game. If you play the good nerd loyal to the Wiki masters there's no entertainment.
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 16th December 2010, 5:55pm)
Getting banned from Wikipedia is no indicator of bad character. Caring about being banned is. Anyone who is banned and cares about it loses all appeal.
Yes. I agree completely.
Its better to know when to fold em. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNnrTNFWcsg
Ottava, you have gotten along ok without WP for a year, so you can get along without it altogether. It not a nice place, and now that you have taken the discussion to AN/I you are subject to one of their wiki-lynchings.
In Dante's "Inferno" the final line from the inscription on the Gates of Hell is:
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (La Divina Commedia, Canto III.1--9 )
(Abandon all hope, you who enter!)
I planned to re-add that quote to the top of my talk page as a reminder, but got bounced out before I did. In my view, logging into WP is entering wiki-Hell. For Dante, who was passing through as a visitor, it is interesting and diverting to see what goes on in Hell. For those who go to there as residents -- as WP 'users' -- WP is the Place of Torment. As they say here in NYC: forgetaboutit.
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Kwork @ Thu 16th December 2010, 2:02pm)
As they say here in NYC: forgetaboutit.
Actually, real Noo Yawkers say "Fuggedaboutit"
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Thu 16th December 2010, 8:00pm)
QUOTE(Kwork @ Thu 16th December 2010, 2:02pm)
As they say here in NYC: forgetaboutit.
Actually, real Noo Yawkers say "Fuggedaboutit"
Yes. I sincerely regret all my spelling, and grammar, mistakes on both WP and WR. I stand behind everything else completely. (Excepting only those statements that turn out to be wrong.)
Posted by: SB_Johnny
I wonder whether Ottava will think I'm http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&curid=5149102&diff=402743571&oldid=402742509. 
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Thu 16th December 2010, 3:18pm)
I wonder whether Ottava will think I'm http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&curid=5149102&diff=402743571&oldid=402742509.
Well, if you aren't trolling, you could http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests_for_clarification and request a clarification on two points:
Premise: Remedy one of the original ban said it was for one year. Remedy three says that after the ban ends that there would be probation. It also says he can appeal after the one half ban point.
1. How does ArbCom claim that Ottava has only 1 appeal per six months when the word six months does not appear nor is there language suggesting he is limited in the frequency and amount of appeals he can make?
2. How can a provision for probation, which, by definition, means to not be in jail, be used to justify an extension of a ban, especially when the provision assumes that the ban would be over and that he would be editing?
There was no grounds for them to make such claims and would be the sole reason why I would be banned beyond December 19.
If anyone questions why this is posted publicly, you can point to the AN thread showing that there is community concerns about the secrecy surrounding the matter and the possible problems regarding what ArbCom determined.
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 4:11pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Thu 16th December 2010, 3:18pm)
I wonder whether Ottava will think I'm http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&curid=5149102&diff=402743571&oldid=402742509.
Well, if you aren't trolling, you could http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests_for_clarification and request a clarification on two points:
Premise: Remedy one of the original ban said it was for one year. Remedy three says that after the ban ends that there would be probation. It also says he can appeal after the one half ban point.
1. How does ArbCom claim that Ottava has only 1 appeal per six months when the word six months does not appear nor is there language suggesting he is limited in the frequency and amount of appeals he can make?
2. How can a provision for probation, which, by definition, means to not be in jail, be used to justify an extension of a ban, especially when the provision assumes that the ban would be over and that he would be editing?
There was no grounds for them to make such claims and would be the sole reason why I would be banned beyond December 19.
If anyone questions why this is posted publicly, you can point to the AN thread showing that there is community concerns about the secrecy surrounding the matter and the possible problems regarding what ArbCom determined.
A simple "thank you" would be less pathologically controlling.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 4:11pm)
Well, if you aren't trolling, you could http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests_for_clarification and request a clarification on two points:
<snipped>
That's awfully lawyerly stuff there... arguing the fine points of ARBCOM's decision is probably the least effective approach (IMO). I don't really know enough about the particulars of the decision to ask in a coherent way. If you want me to post something, send it to me via email or better yet just plop in on my WV talk.
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 16th December 2010, 4:18pm)
A simple "thank you" would be less pathologically controlling.
Given his extremely now opinion of me in general and my motivations in particular, I think that response was probably the best he could do.
Posted by: Malleus
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:11pm)
Premise: Remedy one of the original ban said it was for one year. Remedy three says that after the ban ends that there would be probation. It also says he can appeal after the one half ban point.
1. How does ArbCom claim that Ottava has only 1 appeal per six months when the word six months does not appear nor is there language suggesting he is limited in the frequency and amount of appeals he can make?
2. How can a provision for probation, which, by definition, means to not be in jail, be used to justify an extension of a ban, especially when the provision assumes that the ban would be over and that he would be editing?
There was no grounds for them to make such claims and would be the sole reason why I would be banned beyond December 19.
I think you're looking for logic where none exists, which is why I agreed with Newyorkbrad's proposal to wait until ArbCom's new blood is consecrated.
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:13pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:11pm)
Premise: Remedy one of the original ban said it was for one year. Remedy three says that after the ban ends that there would be probation. It also says he can appeal after the one half ban point.
1. How does ArbCom claim that Ottava has only 1 appeal per six months when the word six months does not appear nor is there language suggesting he is limited in the frequency and amount of appeals he can make?
2. How can a provision for probation, which, by definition, means to not be in jail, be used to justify an extension of a ban, especially when the provision assumes that the ban would be over and that he would be editing?
There was no grounds for them to make such claims and would be the sole reason why I would be banned beyond December 19.
I think you're looking for logic where none exists, which is why I agreed with Newyorkbrad's proposal to wait until ArbCom's new blood is consecrated.
Yes, so a different set of 18 people tell me that my ban is extended into 2012 and make up a completely different excuse as to how "one year" magically no longer means one year.
If you are bored, here are pages ready for FAC with only a copyedit needed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Smart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_a_Nightingale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode:_Intimations_of_Immortality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegy_Written_in_a_Country_Churchyard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plays_of_William_Shakespeare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Coleridge%27s_Conversation_poems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_Rebellion_of_1733
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_War_of_1752-1753
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist_and_the_Author
10 without having to do much. The last 3 should be fun.
Posted by: Malleus
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:15am)
QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:13pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:11pm)
Premise: Remedy one of the original ban said it was for one year. Remedy three says that after the ban ends that there would be probation. It also says he can appeal after the one half ban point.
1. How does ArbCom claim that Ottava has only 1 appeal per six months when the word six months does not appear nor is there language suggesting he is limited in the frequency and amount of appeals he can make?
2. How can a provision for probation, which, by definition, means to not be in jail, be used to justify an extension of a ban, especially when the provision assumes that the ban would be over and that he would be editing?
There was no grounds for them to make such claims and would be the sole reason why I would be banned beyond December 19.
I think you're looking for logic where none exists, which is why I agreed with Newyorkbrad's proposal to wait until ArbCom's new blood is consecrated.
Yes, so a different set of 18 people tell me that my ban is extended into 2012 and make up a completely different excuse as to how "one year" magically no longer means one year.
Perhaps, that's certainly a worst case scenario, but perhaps not. As you know, I thought you were mad to initiate the case that ultimately resulted in your ban. But I think that if your ban isn't lifted, given that it will have to hedged with some face-saving ifs and buts, the new ArbCom will find itself held in no higher regard than the present one.
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:22pm)
Perhaps, that's certainly a worst case scenario, but perhaps not. As you know, I thought you were mad to initiate the case that ultimately resulted in your ban. But I think that if your ban isn't lifted, given that it will have to hedged with some face-saving ifs and buts, the new ArbCom will find itself held in no higher regard than the present one.
Well, I groveled. I begged. I offered to do anything. I wasn't even given a discussion nor asked any questions.
And the new Arb is mostly the same as the old.
All that can really be done is for others to just clean up pages like the ten above, put them through FAC, and continue to have my work outshine theirs.
As a side note, I do find it interesting how various Arbs spread claims about me yet ignore that I was known for things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mattisse_3#Outside_view_by_Ottava_Rima and being one of the few willing to defend those that no one else would defend, even when that person attacked me or harmed me in some way.
Posted by: Malleus
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 4:55am)
QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 16th December 2010, 9:22pm)
Perhaps, that's certainly a worst case scenario, but perhaps not. As you know, I thought you were mad to initiate the case that ultimately resulted in your ban. But I think that if your ban isn't lifted, given that it will have to hedged with some face-saving ifs and buts, the new ArbCom will find itself held in no higher regard than the present one.
Well, I groveled. I begged. I offered to do anything. I wasn't even given a discussion nor asked any questions.
And the new Arb is mostly the same as the old.
All that can really be done is for others to just clean up pages like the ten above, put them through FAC, and continue to have my work outshine theirs.
As a side note, I do find it interesting how various Arbs spread claims about me yet ignore that I was known for things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mattisse_3#Outside_view_by_Ottava_Rima and being one of the few willing to defend those that no one else would defend, even when that person attacked me or harmed me in some way.
The extension of your one year ban and its transmogrification into an indefinite ban was clearly iniquitous, but that can't be changed now. I don't think that either grovelling or begging are appropriate or even necessary, just a little more patience, until the January 15 deadline. If you push ArbCom now they'll just say no again.
Posted by: CharlotteWebb
QUOTE(Ottava Hussein Rima @ Thu 16th December 2010, 10:00am)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Ottava thread is interesting…
You LIE.
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 16th December 2010, 11:55pm)
All that can really be done is for others to just clean up pages like the ten above, put them through FAC, and continue to have my work outshine theirs.
THAT'll show 'em!
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 17th December 2010, 4:12am)
QUOTE(Ottava Hussein Rima @ Thu 16th December 2010, 10:00am)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Ottava thread is interesting…
You LIE.
Malleus
QUOTE
The extension of your one year ban and its transmogrification into an indefinite ban was clearly iniquitous, but that can't be changed now. I don't think that either grovelling or begging are appropriate or even necessary, just a little more patience, until the January 15 deadline. If you push ArbCom now they'll just say no again.
Eh, SirFozzie and Shell.kinney said they would do whatever they could to make sure I stay banned until I stop having any connection to Wikipedia. Kinda odd, no?
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 10:03am)
Eh, SirFozzie and Shell.kinney said they would do whatever they could to make sure I stay banned until I stop having any connection to Wikipedia. Kinda odd, no?
Ottava, let me suggest what has been very fulfilling for me. Sockpuppetry. Assume a new persona that they can't identify. It's like a career as an actor. Make them believe you're someone else. Load of fun.
Posted by: Text
QUOTE
Ottava, let me suggest what has been very fulfilling for me. Sockpuppetry. Assume a new persona that they can't identify. It's like a career as an actor. Make them believe you're someone else. Load of fun.
Load of fun, and of course drama, which is never enough; people over there always crave for more
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 8:22am)
Ottava, let me suggest what has been very fulfilling for me. Sockpuppetry. Assume a new persona that they can't identify. It's like a career as an actor. Make them believe you're someone else. Load of fun.
Asking Ottava to try on a non-straightjacketted personna, is hilarious. Without the pressure-suit of his various stultifying ideas about reality, it would be like an astronaut exposed to vacuum.
Worse. Astronauts in vacuum don't blow up, but merely puff up and lose consciousness.
Ottava's head would probably explode. 
Posted by: Ottava
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&action=historysubmit&diff=402886634&oldid=402883045.
Thogo complains that I "harassed" him 8 days after I said Stewards were supposed to follow US law regardless of their personal political opinions, and two people who support the Commons porn say I should stay banned for it.
Nice Sarek, nice. You really make yourself look great there.
P.S. - Milton - http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/7/3411eed6-b4d0-4762-9f8c-b4e24fc0016f.jpg
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 1:31pm)
Thogo complains that I "harassed" him 8 days after I said Stewards were supposed to follow US law regardless of their personal political opinions, and two people who support the Commons porn say I should stay banned for it.
Nice Sarek, nice. You really make yourself look great there.
Ottava, you accused me of "harassing" you for calling you up when I was genuinely worried about your emotional state. Least you could do is not knock people who jump to the same wacky conclusions that you do, eh?
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:20pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 1:31pm)
Thogo complains that I "harassed" him 8 days after I said Stewards were supposed to follow US law regardless of their personal political opinions, and two people who support the Commons porn say I should stay banned for it.
Nice Sarek, nice. You really make yourself look great there.
Ottava, you accused me of "harassing" you for calling you up when I was genuinely worried about your emotional state. Least you could do is not knock people who jump to the same wacky conclusions that you do, eh?
I don't get it.
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Do you honestly think calling someone's house is akin to challenging an on-wiki claim that US law is meaningless?
Do you not understand that WP:HARASS is about stalking, which calling someone's house can be construed as and what a line of criticism cannot be construed as?
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.
PM me your address, Ottava, and I'll send you Mormon missionaries that will actually knock on your front door.
Posted by: TungstenCarbide
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:19pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.you must really hate Mormons.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:30pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:19pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.you must really hate Mormons.
Milton the Hater, I say.
QUOTE(T. Jefferson)
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
Notes on Virginia is still worthwhile reading. I think it contains the earliest statement of Josh Billings' aphorism that it isn't the thing don't know that hurt you, such much as the things you know, that just aren't so.
Or as Jefferson says:
QUOTE
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.
That's hard to unpack in modern English, but once you get it, you see it's the very same sentiment.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:30pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:19pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.you must really hate Mormons.
Okay, I see the joke. Yes, it would be a horrid thing to do to both of them. Geez, you've got to use smileys!
Posted by: TungstenCarbide
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:40pm)
QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:30pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:19pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate. Okay, I see the joke. Yes, it would be a horrid thing to do to both of them. Geez, you've got to use smileys!
i know, it gets me in trouble a lot.
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
Personally, Ban doesn't appeal to me.
Posted by: melloden
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Fri 17th December 2010, 9:54pm)
Personally, Ban doesn't appeal to me.
This one is more interesting. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Ban_Ki-moon_20090129.jpg
Posted by: Truckspond
With all the wikidrama that's going on wikipedia is much more interesting than anything on the idiot box of the TV. We have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Dylan_Flaherty_and_Sarah_Palin boxing match at AN/I and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ottava sideshow at AN. I really do hope that the respective appeals succeed!
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 17th December 2010, 4:11pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 3:32pm)
Do you honestly think calling someone's phone number without permission is acceptable?
Horrible people in the marketing research field do this to households about 50,000 times an evening, nationwide, I estimate.
Two points.
1. Do not call lists.
2. Cell phones are off limits for marketers and the rest.
As a side note, I and a lot of others consider such phone calls harassing and invasions of privacy (hence the do not call list).
Posted by: A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(melloden @ Fri 17th December 2010, 5:10pm)
This one is more interesting. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Ban_Ki-moon_20090129.jpg
I still have my Walkman, too!
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 6:06pm)
Two points.
1. Do not call lists.
I still get calls, despite being on the list.
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 6:06pm)
2. Cell phones are off limits for marketers and the rest.
Tell that to the marketers!
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(Truckspond @ Fri 17th December 2010, 2:39pm)
We have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Dylan_Flaherty_and_Sarah_Palin boxing match at AN/I and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ottava sideshow at AN.
And to both I say
Wiki can be more powerful than clonazepam, at times.
Posted by: melloden
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sat 18th December 2010, 4:28am)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 6:06pm)
Two points.
1. Do not call lists.
I still get calls, despite being on the list.
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 17th December 2010, 6:06pm)
2. Cell phones are off limits for marketers and the rest.
Tell that to the marketers!
That's when you talk in an Indian accent and ask if they need help
Posted by: Infomercial
Minor bump about a slightly different issue. If the mods think it warrants its own thread, I'll be glad to have it moved.
So, I was editing Wikipedia without the realization that I was logged out due to expired cookies or something. That's fine. I'd have figured out sooner or later with no harm done. Suddenly, though, instead of that nice little box for me to make those improvements in, I was confronted with another little box. This little box had a message:
QUOTE
You are currently unable to edit pages on Wikipedia
You can still read pages, but you cannot edit or create them.
Editing from (IP) has been disabled by PMDrive1061 for the following reason(s):
...
You can still read pages, but you cannot edit or create them.
Editing from (IP) has been disabled by PMDrive1061 for the following reason(s):
...
So, pretty much what it was trying to tell me was that a banned sockpuppeteer was editing from an IP and this administrator, seeing that the ban was being evaded, decided to temporarily block the IP to prevent further disruption. That's fine, too. He was just doing his job. What wasn't fine, though, was that he blocked this IP for a year and not only that single IP, but the entire range of IPs. I happened to have an IP in that range, and it ended up as unfortunate collateral damage. Whatever, I can just go to my IP's talk page and-what? I can't edit my IP's talk page either? This sockpuppeteer must have been a serious nuisance to warrant this! So, let's run through my situation here. As an IP, I can't edit, I can't make an account, and I can't appeal the horrible mistake. If I didn't already have an account, I'd be a heck of a situation!
So why am I making such a big deal of something that doesn't even affect me? In my first year or so on Wikipedia, I had little knowledge of how it worked, besides the whole editing thing. I'm sure that there have been many newcomers like this. If they came on one day, after all the positive contributions they made, and the further positive contributions they wanted to make, finding that they were blocked from editing due to the activities of a completely different person, they'd most likely be outraged. PMDrive1061 has to realize that IPs are like a pregnant girl's emotions. They change. Very often. Blocking an IP for two or three weeks would have been a lot more reasonable and fair. He couldn't have seriously assumed that this troll would be lurking at WP months later, just waiting to jump. People are less pathetic than that. And not allowing subsequent victims to even access their talk page is downright stupid! Treating potential users like this is a great way to lose their respect forever, just like you've lost mine.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
So, tomorrow is the Big Day: Ottava is allowed to appeal again.
Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Posted by: Malleus
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Fri 14th January 2011, 11:18pm)
So, tomorrow is the Big Day: Ottava is allowed to appeal again.
Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Is Ottava going to appeal?
Posted by: Zoloft
QUOTE(Malleus @ Fri 14th January 2011, 5:02pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Fri 14th January 2011, 11:18pm)
So, tomorrow is the Big Day: Ottava is allowed to appeal again.
Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Is Ottava going to appeal?
Lately, he's been less appealing.
Posted by: Abd
QUOTE(Infomercial @ Tue 4th January 2011, 10:07pm)
Minor bump about a slightly different issue. If the mods think it warrants its own thread, I'll be glad to have it moved.
So, I was editing Wikipedia without the realization that I was logged out due to expired cookies or something. That's fine. I'd have figured out sooner or later with no harm done. Suddenly, though, instead of that nice little box for me to make those improvements in, I was confronted with another little box. This little box had a message:
QUOTE
You are currently unable to edit pages on Wikipedia
You can still read pages, but you cannot edit or create them.
Editing from (IP) has been disabled by PMDrive1061 for the following reason(s):
...
You can still read pages, but you cannot edit or create them.
Editing from (IP) has been disabled by PMDrive1061 for the following reason(s):
...
So, pretty much what it was trying to tell me was that a banned sockpuppeteer was editing from an IP and this administrator, seeing that the ban was being evaded, decided to temporarily block the IP to prevent further disruption. That's fine, too. He was just doing his job. What wasn't fine, though, was that he blocked this IP for a year and not only that single IP, but the entire range of IPs. I happened to have an IP in that range, and it ended up as unfortunate collateral damage. Whatever, I can just go to my IP's talk page and-what? I can't edit my IP's talk page either? This sockpuppeteer must have been a serious nuisance to warrant this! So, let's run through my situation here. As an IP, I can't edit, I can't make an account, and I can't appeal the horrible mistake. If I didn't already have an account, I'd be a heck of a situation!
So why am I making such a big deal of something that doesn't even affect me? In my first year or so on Wikipedia, I had little knowledge of how it worked, besides the whole editing thing. I'm sure that there have been many newcomers like this. If they came on one day, after all the positive contributions they made, and the further positive contributions they wanted to make, finding that they were blocked from editing due to the activities of a completely different person, they'd most likely be outraged. PMDrive1061 has to realize that IPs are like a pregnant girl's emotions. They change. Very often. Blocking an IP for two or three weeks would have been a lot more reasonable and fair. He couldn't have seriously assumed that this troll would be lurking at WP months later, just waiting to jump. People are less pathetic than that. And not allowing subsequent victims to even access their talk page is downright stupid! Treating potential users like this is a great way to lose their respect forever, just like you've lost mine.
Generally, Wikipedia, without some rather drastic changes, is unworkable, long term, and true consensus is mission-critical, you can't have any kind of objective neutrality without consensus; those who might be able to change the structure (it really only requires a few tweaks, to provide real dispute resolution process -- to be "real" it must be efficient as well as fair) are terrified that they will lose the massive volunteer labor of the admin corps, and don't realize that this fear is perpetuating the problem and intensifying it. Classic, really. Expectable. And a bit tragic.
In other discussions there has been argument that so-and-so is in charge or part of the group in charge at Wikipedia, and on the other side, that no, they aren't in charge or influential. The fact is that, while the Foundation has legal authority, it's terrified to use it, fearing that using it will kill the golden goose. ArbComm is definitely not in charge, the "community" is in charge. Which, in practice, means that nobody is, because The Community (T-C-L-K-R-D) is blocked.
Posted by: Abd
QUOTE(Malleus @ Fri 14th January 2011, 8:02pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Fri 14th January 2011, 11:18pm)
So, tomorrow is the Big Day: Ottava is allowed to appeal again.
Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Is Ottava going to appeal?Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Oops.
Maybe they won't notice.
I'm generally oppose to bans, there are better options that will still protect the community, but I've written about this too much already. If Ottava wants to return to the WP snakepit, I wish him well.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(Malleus @ Fri 14th January 2011, 8:02pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Fri 14th January 2011, 11:18pm)
So, tomorrow is the Big Day: Ottava is allowed to appeal again.
Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Is Ottava going to appeal?Are we taking bets on how the New Arbcom™ will rule?
Well, maybe not. Might be too much drama for him.