FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2933 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) FORUM WARNING [2] Division by zero (Line: 2943 of /srcsgcaop/boardclass.php) To Autumn -
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I wanted to talk about changes to TFA as an introduction to something that is a major problem with Wikipedia - letting people mob articles that already have long standing consensus and the result is the destruction of an article.
If you look at the two, you will see a few things:
1. The word "colonialist", pulled directly from a source by a major critic in an article later included in a book about Romantic Colonialism is removed. Instead, an imaginary connection to Byron that is not in any sources nor logically true is added.
2. The summary of the work from highly notable sources is removed and replaced with just a copy and paste from Wikipedia. No summary, no guidance, nothing "critical".
3. The themes section went from tightly organized and concise to a bunch of tiny and scattered paragraphs with no unity.
4. Material from Walter Jackson Bate, the most famous Keats's critic and winner of a Pulitzer for his Keats biography, was removed because the editor disagreed with it. The reason why Bate points this out is in its uniqueness in poetry as a whole. Keats was a sound based poet and the various techniques are very important when writing about the poem.
5. Removing a description of an image for the reason that the drawing isn't what his real hair color is, but the description is about the image and not reality.
5. Dumbing down the work in general by removing "deals more with sensual observations" because the editor believes this to be nonsense. Mind you, one of the most famous literary critics Harold Bloom was the one who said it was a "sensuous observation of he consequences of that [Autumn's] process" while the first is "aureate".
6. Removing stuff without care. He says there are no "individuals", but Bloom refers to the various singers as entities even if they are animal. But even if you want to say "individual", he removes the idea of motionlessness, which is essential to critical interpretations of the poem and have been deemed a fundamental part of Keats's poetry.
7. Moving the structure to the bottom. The structure is essential to understand what you would even be reading. It is the mechanics, the background to the format. In critical works structure and mechanics always come first and it is standard on Wikipedia.
Was there discussion? No. Were there phrases changed to the point that they contradict what the sources? Yes.
The point - if this stuff happens on a small FA about poetry, what about incredibly technical and complex FAs? Why do they allow -any- changes during TFA instead of forcing everyone straight to the talk page? It seems as if Wikipedia -encourages- disruptive changes when the work is most prominent, making them magnets for embarrassing Wikipedia instead of showing off what is good.
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I'd also have to say Ottava is right in this case, though considering the subject matter, it probably depends on your aesthetic sensibilities to some degree. There are those who would say that poetry is meant to be enjoyed, rather than dissected, but of course you don't have to watch the dissection taking place if you don't want to.
My own aeshetic leanings are more towards surrealism and "absurdism," though I'm not too fond of the latter term. I prefer minimalism to ornamentalism, but consider both to be pretentious. Most English poetry just bores me - I prefer, say, Burmese or Hungarian poetry, because I don't know any Burmese or Hungarian and to me it looks like random collections of indecipherable characters lined up on a page. What it might actually be saying, I can only imagine - and I prefer imagining it myself to being able to read and comprehend it.
So from my own perspective, Ottava still has the right idea here, but only to the extent that he's basically saying, "this article should only be 3 times as long as a sane person would make it, not 5 times as long."
The unsupported idea that the poem "may be a response" to Lord Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage is also somewhat mystifying. It looks like most of that "damage" was done by one user, Amandajm (T-C-L-K-R-D)
, just yesterday - shortly before Ottava started this thread. But one thing I do like about the newer "damaged" version is that it doesn't insert any commentary into the poem itself - that looks a bit too didactic to me, possibly even disrespectful to the poet. It also makes it look more like a "dissection" than it already does... This may be what Ottava means by "moving the structure," and if so, I might disagree with him on that score. But that's just me! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 10th October 2010, 10:48am)
The point - if this stuff happens on a small FA about poetry, what about incredibly technical and complex FAs? Why do they allow -any- changes during TFA instead of forcing everyone straight to the talk page? It seems as if Wikipedia -encourages- disruptive changes when the work is most prominent, making them magnets for embarrassing Wikipedia instead of showing off what is good.
Well, to paraphrase something Jon Awbrey once wrote, it's not about marking up the content, it's about getting the marks into the con-tent.
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The reason why the poem is analyzed with the poem excerpts is two fold:
1. The anti "in-universe" bs and that people whine about there being a poem on Wiki and Wikisource.
2. School kids do not understand how the poem breaks down or need someone to cite for summaries of what the text says (and not necessarily "means" at that point).
The actual "summary" style follows critical works called "readers", where an honored literary critic just performs a close analysis of text with large excerpts thrown in. Harold Bloom has a very famous one on the Romantics.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 11th October 2010, 1:23pm)
1. The anti "in-universe" bs and that people whine about there being a poem on Wiki and Wikisource.
2. School kids do not understand how the poem breaks down or need someone to cite for summaries of what the text says (and not necessarily "means" at that point).
Both good points. You could even add one or two more, to the effect that reproducing the poem as a series of excerpts might encourage people to go elsewhere to read the poem in something more like its original form, preferably in an actual book, and maybe that doing so helps to prevent the reader from inventing his/her own novel interpretation of what the poem means and then trying to insert that personal interpretation into the article - without having first published it in a legitimate literary review or peer-reviewed journal of some kind.
Ah yes. There is something special about sitting around a fire in the wild: no radio, no TV, no iPODs, no internet. Just some alcohol. And perhaps somebody who knows some Service or Kipling poem by heart, and can recite it like they did in the days before our electronified entertainment culture hit us.
Of course, those places are shinking in size. In most of Yellowstone National Park your iPhone will now work fine, and you can be streaming the next movie off your personal Netflix queue while some poor bastard recites The Shooting of Dan McGrew. Stop me before I start to sound like Andy Rooney again.
The guy just reinserted the OR, the removal of cited content and the rest that -is- vandalism. God, why are such people even allowed near something referred to as an "encyclopedia".
"The introduction stated that the poem represents the tastes, sights and sounds of Autumn. It doesn't. There is no mention whatsoever of taste."
What do you think all of the harvest/food images are? "fruit with ripeness to the core", "sweet kernel", etc. The guy doesn't even know what IRC is and obvious hasn't a clue about discussing things before making mass and incorrect changes. Funny how he declares it as a bad page when even scholars say it was great before his adding of bullshit and other inappropriate things.
"The poem was a result of having lived in the world, and a farewell to it; at the same time it was a world unto itself, inhabiting fully its autumnal canvas, richer than any Constable painting."
He used it to claim "It has parallels in the rural landscapes of the English painter [[John Constable]".
The source does not say what he wishes for it to say nor does any of it justify inclusion of the statement into the article's lead.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 12th October 2010, 9:08am)
God, why are such people even allowed near something referred to as an "encyclopedia".
It's that "anyone can edit" thing. Ideally, encyclopedias should be written by people who know what they're talking about and are capable of collaborating with others. Problem is: people who actually fit that description would probably just look for a job at a real encyclopedia.
(Oh, sorry, just noticed that was addressed to God. God? Are you there? Ottava needs you!)
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Tue 12th October 2010, 10:14am)
Damn that guy is getting on my nerves...
Just to clarify a bit, Amandajm (T-C-L-K-R-D)
claims to be female, i.e., "Amanda J.M." She seems to be either from the UK or Australia, most likely the UK, and says (on Commons) that she's "a retired person with experience in museum practice and education, art and architectural history and conservation." (So what about poetry?)
The addition of the Constable reference is definitely "WP:OR" - I wouldn't call it "vandalism," but at the very least, someone with admin rights should probably demand that she cease and desist on that one.
(Edit) - I also noticed that Amandajm spends a significant amount of time on Commons fighting against people who upload "enhanced" versions of famous paintings and, on occasion, photographs. She prefers the "aged look," and considers most attempts to digitally "clean up" such images to be "abhorrent" and "ghastly." Here's a good example. (Scroll to the bottom third of that page.) I'm not sure I disagree with her, but I will say she does seem awfully insistent about it!
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Tue 12th October 2010, 12:04pm)
(Oh, sorry, just noticed that was addressed to God. God? Are you there? Ottava needs you!)
I took it as more a suggestion that God needs Ottava. As in, the world needs fixing and this is how He should do it. Having failed to notice this minor thing.
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The page is now at FAR with predictably clueless statements by the guy trying to say his major changes were helpful.
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
If you bother to read a poem like Ode to Psyche, you will see that there is very little "standard" meter.
This is my statement on the FAR and how the guy destroyed the page and brought it below C level. I enjoy how he bashed the language (language that met with the approve of many scholars and a lot of Wiki people) but put in far worse language or absolutely made the page not reflect what the sources said...
Jack Stillinger (major critic) on page 15 points out (regarding "To Autumn"): "of course the conrasts and interchanges originae spontaneously, according to ear rather than principle. The same is true of the rhythmial qualities of the lines. Departures from the metrial norm occur almost everywhere... Caesuras and enjambments--the rhetorical pauses within lines and the run-on continuations of sense from one line to the next-- are similarly varied. One can count up and tabulate these things... but the results never explain, except in the bare fact of is existence, how or why suh variation creates pleasure."
The guy removed the percentages showing how majorly significant these alterations were. 14% of spondee is -unique- in English. It is a very impressive amount that shows that the poem is not -normal-.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 10:00am)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
Yep. They gallop rather than trot, no doubt about it. More like the third movement of the Emperor Concerto than the second.
Horsey, you should do a bit on the influence of riding on the poetry and music of the romantics. I think in our horseless carriage age, we no longer fully appreciate it.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:00pm)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Fri 15th October 2010, 5:26pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:00pm)
He still insists that the poem is in iambic pentameter when 14% of the beats being spondee show that it is way too high for that to be possible. The odes in general were not iambic pentameter! They have an Anapaestic structure which violates the whole "iambic". You would have to butcher the music of the poem to force an iambic structure.
Trochee trips from long to short; From long to short in solemn sort Slow Spondee stalks; strong foot! yet ill able Ever to come up with Dactyl trisyllable. Iambics march from short to long; -- With a leap and a bound the swift Anapaests throng; One syllable long, with one short at each side, Amphibrachys hastes with a stately stride;-- First and last being long, middle short, Amphimacer Strikes his thundering hoofs like a proud high-bred Racer.
Trochee trips from long to short; From long to short in solemn sort Slow Spondee stalks; strong foot! yet ill able Ever to come up with Dactyl trisyllable. Iambics march from short to long; -- With a leap and a bound the swift Anapaests throng; One syllable long, with one short at each side, Amphibrachys hastes with a stately stride;-- First and last being long, middle short, Amphimacer Strikes his thundering hoofs like a proud high-bred Racer.
Nice. Classic Milton. Where were you hiding the original you?
If Derwent be innocent, steady, and wise, And delight in the things of earth, water, and skies; Tender warmth at his heart, with these meters to show it, With sound sense in his brains, may make Derwent a poet -- May crown him with fame, and must win him the love Of his father on earth and his father above. My dear, dear child! Could you stand upon Skiddaw, you would not from its whole ridge See a man who so loves you as your fond S.T. Colerige.
I so wanted to write a page on that. If you notice, the beauty in the poem is not the cleverness found in reflecting meter in the language but that it was a father sharing with his son what he enjoyed the most. Most of Coleridge's poetry was devoted to Hartley, but this was to Derwent.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 15th October 2010, 6:35pm)
Nice. Classic Milton. Where were you hiding the original you?
This is the original me as much as anything. No, I am not the hung-up Elizabethan "Savage," unable and unwilling to face the Brave New World. That's you, Hamlet; you can have it. If I had to be a Huxley character I'd be more Dr. Obispo in After Many A Summer Dies the Swan.
No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be; Am an attendant lord, one that will do To swell a progress, start a scene or two, Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool, Deferential, glad to be of use, Politic, cautious, and meticulous; Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse; At times, indeed, almost ridiculous— Almost, at times, the Fool.
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 15th October 2010, 8:03pm)
What ho, Murray! What could it have been that I have seen?
Is it not of my marrow? Are we not one, of one self?
And Murray turns to her and says, "What are you hollering?" "What are you hollering? You're gonna wake up the whole castle."
(From Queen Alexandra and Murray, Shakespeare's 38th play.)
(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) Where did you get that? It's perfect. Life usually doesn't end heroically, but generally after an interminable time of elderly people yelling at each other. Shakespeare can be glad he missed it.
Well haye you heard, but something hard of hearing They call me Milton that do talk of me Sans eyes, sans teeth, sans wit, sans hearing aid Hold there and speak! Nor walk away Mumbling like storm in farthest mountains A surly sullen roll that hath not understanding Fye! Fye! Speak!
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:28pm)
I knew a Hell's Angel named Spondee once, in my ill-spent youth. 'Twas his given name.
Fits. It's from the Greek σπονδή, spondē = An alcoholic drink. I always think of it as thumping on the bar or in a wine barrel room. Some of the best spondee I know occurs in a poem where it's everywhere the boom-boom back-beat of drums along the Congo:
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable, Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table, Pounded on the table, Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom, Hard as they were able, Boom, boom, BOOM, With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom, Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
Warning: this is from an incredibly racist poem. A shame.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:52pm)
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Fri 15th October 2010, 10:28pm)
I knew a Hell's Angel named Spondee once, in my ill-spent youth. 'Twas his given name.
Fits. It's from the Greek σπονδή, spondē = An alcoholic drink. I always think of it as thumping on the bar or in a wine barrel room. Some of the best spondee I know occurs in a poem where it's everywhere the boom-boom back-beat of drums along the Congo:
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable, Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table, Pounded on the table, Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom, Hard as they were able, Boom, boom, BOOM, With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom, Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
Warning: this is from an incredibly racist poem. A shame.
That fellow had some real deep-seated issues.
Despite the content of Congo, it's performed by students all over the world. I once walked past an auditorium in Manila on a cool spring night and was jolted to hear it crashing out into the darkness.
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This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
The Wikipedia article on Spondee (T-H-L-K-D) says the device is "unique in English verse as all other feet (excepting molossus, which has three stressed syllables, and dispondee, which has four stressed syllables) contain at least one unstressed syllable." But that WP article hasn't been touched by Ottava, FWIW.
Of course, "form the basis for" isn't the same as "ever appear in any form whatsoever within," but it's certainly different from what the WP article says at least. We all know that Ottava hates the Encyclopedia Britannica almost as much as Satan or Nancy Pelosi, so he'll probably tell us the EB article is a "crock of shit" or some such thing. Regardless, it does appear that this is a somewhat contentious issue within poetry-appreciation circles.
Ms. Amanda (btw, why does Ottava persist in using male pronouns for this person?) makes a valid point about the fact that To Autumn is referred to in the Iambic pentameter (T-H-L-K-D) article as an example of the form. Even if just 14 percent of the poem isn't in iambic pentameter, they should probably try to come up with a different example. (Again, though, this is assuming Ottava is substantially correct about this whole spondee thing.)
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 16th October 2010, 12:28pm)
This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
The Wikipedia article on Spondee (T-H-L-K-D) says the device is "unique in English verse as all other feet (excepting molossus, which has three stressed syllables, and dispondee, which has four stressed syllables) contain at least one unstressed syllable." But that WP article hasn't been touched by Ottava, FWIW.
Of course, "form the basis for" isn't the same as "ever appear in any form whatsoever within," but it's certainly different from what the WP article says at least. We all know that Ottava hates the Encyclopedia Britannica almost as much as Satan or Nancy Pelosi, so he'll probably tell us the EB article is a "crock of shit" or some such thing. Regardless, it does appear that this is a somewhat contentious issue within poetry-appreciation circles.
Ms. Amanda (btw, why does Ottava persist in using male pronouns for this person?) makes a valid point about the fact that To Autumn is referred to in the Iambic pentameter (T-H-L-K-D) article as an example of the form. Even if just 14 percent of the poem isn't in iambic pentameter, they should probably try to come up with a different example. (Again, though, this is assuming Ottava is substantially correct about this whole spondee thing.)
You mean Walter Jackson Bate. I can send you an image of the page if you want. He did win a Pulitzer Prize for his biography of Keats, after all. By the way, one line of To Autumn is iambic. However, this guy said the whole poem is when there are many lines that are far from it. The meter changes based on what the words are trying to say.
But reading over the example, I wonder. "To swell the gourd, and plump the hazel shells". "To swell" and "the gourd" fit. So does "and plump". But "the haz" "el shells" does not. "Hazel" as equal stress on both syllables no matter how I try to pronounce it unless it was "Hah! zel", and then it would be ridiculous. "All the fun's in how you say a thing" is clearly not an academic book.
People force meter in inappropriate ways. Instead, i reads more naturally that "the" is stressed with "hazel" having two unstressed syllables with "shells" as stressed. Thus, you would have a naturally fitting spondee right there with "plump the". If you read it, "plump" and "the" have the same stress just naturally.
And about "Amanda", Poetlister pretended to be a female to get away with such nonsense so I wont assume too much.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 4:56pm)
People force meter in inappropriate ways. Instead, i reads more naturally that "the" is stressed with "hazel" having two unstressed syllables with "shells" as stressed. Thus, you would have a naturally fitting spondee right there with "plump the". If you read it, "plump" and "the" have the same stress just naturally.
Surely "hazel" (ˈheɪz·əl) has stress on the first syllable, with the first vowel being spoken clearly as the "long a" diphthong and the second an indeterminate schwa. I'm pretty sure I would pronounce it something like:
T' swell th' gourd, 'n' plump th' haz'l shells
Looks like the author was trying for iambic pentameter, but some the other lines are dodgy, though not as bad as the Edward Taylor shit I had to read. Phillis Wheatley did better than either of them, as far as I'm concerned.
If I were writing this poem and expected anyone to read it aloud I would have made several of the dropped syllables clearer (in "gran'ry", "winn'wing", "flow'rs", etc.) or plaguishly avoided words for which this is necessary. "Season" in the first line is too awkward to reconcile, and attempting to stress monosyllabic conjunctions, prepositions, and articles in modern English is a recipe for fail.
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 16th October 2010, 9:28am)
This is sort of interesting, if you're into this sort of thing - the Encyclopedia Britannica article on "Spondee" suggests that the spondee is not really something you find in English verse at all:
QUOTE
It does not, however, form the basis for any English verse, as there are virtually no English words in which syllables receive equal stress.
Sure. You can't make a poem entirely out of spondee or even more than a few syllables. But it makes nice boom-boom or boom-boom-boom emphasis patches, especially with anapests. The Congo, referenced above, as great native drum beat sections of one alternating with the other, then patches of iambic, and the whole thing is very fine. Sort of a "You hear what the drums say, Bwana?" "Yes, there's trouble in the uplands from Nkubo..."
I didn't know that The Congo was so widely performed. Hopefully enough of this, and it will lose its sting like I wish I Was in Dixie (which Lincoln noted in the last week of his life was a pretty good song and he could finally enjoy it again). And the Confederate flag. And so on.
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 16th October 2010, 2:35pm)
Surely "hazel" (ˈheɪz·əl) has stress on the first syllable, with the first vowel being spoken clearly as the "long a" diphthong and the second an indeterminate schwa. I'm pretty sure I would pronounce it something like:
In 19th century British, that "schwa" was a "long vowel". You would have to pronounce the word HAY zel which is ridiculous. Either it is HAY ZEL with two stresses or hazel with no stresses.
I've timed it out and had other people speak - same amount of time per syllable with same emphasis on both. If you do a beat (i.e. have a drum or bang on a table) you will see that trying to do the emphasis on the first syllable is weird. It doesn't even sound like a word if you emphasize the one without the other.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 3:35pm)
I didn't know that The Congo was so widely performed. Hopefully enough of this, and it will lose its sting like I wish I Was in Dixie (which Lincoln noted in the last week of his life was a pretty good song and he could finally enjoy it again).
What's wrong with Dixie? I like Dixie and Pixie and Mr. Jinks
This post has been edited by A Horse With No Name:
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 7:42pm)
In 19th century British, that "schwa" was a "long vowel". You would have to pronounce the word HAY zel which is ridiculous. Either it is HAY ZEL with two stresses or hazel with no stresses.
Long vowel on the "e" strikes me as counter-intuitive given that it was spelled hæslin Old English, lacking an explicit second vowel sound.
QUOTE
I've timed it out and had other people speak - same amount of time per syllable with same emphasis on both. If you do a beat (i.e. have a drum or bang on a table) you will see that trying to do the emphasis on the first syllable is weird. It doesn't even sound like a word if you emphasize the one without the other.
Sorry, but are you not rhyming it with "nasal" and "appraisal"?
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This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 16th October 2010, 2:27pm)
This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
Don't let the technical analysis mess up your enjoyment of the thing itself.
WHEN I heard the learn’d astronomer; When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me; When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them; When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room, How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick; Till rising and gliding out, I wander’d off by myself, In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time, Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 16th October 2010, 5:27pm)
This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
I remember in my college American Literature class that we were reading a poem by Robert Frost about someone swinging around and around on a tree branch and thinking about letting go. It was a beautiful poem if I recall.
The professor said, "What do you guys think this poem is about?"
A classmate replied, "I think its about a child or an old man wanting to feel like a child spinning around and around the tree branch for fun."
The professor replied, "Really? I thought it was about suicide. You see, the person swinging is actually wanting to be released from life which is why he wants to let go."
Since then, I think every poem is about suicide. I didn't know until later that Frost was known for his depression, melancholy, and pessimism. Ruined my whole image of Robert Frost as a kindly old grandpa who liked to write nice poems!
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 16th October 2010, 5:00pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 7:42pm)
In 19th century British, that "schwa" was a "long vowel". You would have to pronounce the word HAY zel which is ridiculous. Either it is HAY ZEL with two stresses or hazel with no stresses.
Long vowel on the "e" strikes me as counter-intuitive given that it was spelled hæslin Old English, lacking an explicit second vowel sound.
QUOTE
I've timed it out and had other people speak - same amount of time per syllable with same emphasis on both. If you do a beat (i.e. have a drum or bang on a table) you will see that trying to do the emphasis on the first syllable is weird. It doesn't even sound like a word if you emphasize the one without the other.
Sorry, but are you not rhyming it with "nasal" and "appraisal"?
I am, but apparently you don't put any emphasis on ending "l" sounds. Maybe it is a regional thing.
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Sat 16th October 2010, 4:00pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 16th October 2010, 5:27pm)
This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
I remember in my college American Literature class that we were reading a poem by Robert Frost about someone swinging around and around on a tree branch and thinking about letting go. It was a beautiful poem if I recall.
The professor said, "What do you guys think this poem is about?"
A classmate replied, "I think its about a child or an old man wanting to feel like a child spinning around and around the tree branch for fun."
The professor replied, "Really? I thought it was about suicide. You see, the person swinging is actually wanting to be released from life which is why he wants to let go."
Since then, I think every poem is about suicide. I didn't know until later that Frost was known for his depression, melancholy, and pessimism. Ruined my whole image of Robert Frost as a kindly old grandpa who liked to write nice poems!
When I see birches bend to left and right Across the lines of straighter darker trees, I like to think some boy's been swinging them. But swinging doesn't bend them down to stay.
[...]
I should prefer to have some boy bend them As he went out and in to fetch the cows-- Some boy too far from town to learn baseball, Whose only play was what he found himself, Summer or winter, and could play alone. One by one he subdued his father's trees By riding them down over and over again Until he took the stiffness out of them, And not one but hung limp, not one was left For him to conquer. He learned all there was To learn about not launching out too soon And so not carrying the tree away Clear to the ground. He always kept his poise To the top branches, climbing carefully With the same pains you use to fill a cup Up to the brim, and even above the brim. Then he flung outward, feet first, with a swish, Kicking his way down through the air to the ground. So was I once myself a swinger of birches....
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 9:21pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Sat 16th October 2010, 4:00pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 16th October 2010, 5:27pm)
This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
I remember in my college American Literature class that we were reading a poem by Robert Frost about someone swinging around and around on a tree branch and thinking about letting go. It was a beautiful poem if I recall.
The professor said, "What do you guys think this poem is about?"
A classmate replied, "I think its about a child or an old man wanting to feel like a child spinning around and around the tree branch for fun."
The professor replied, "Really? I thought it was about suicide. You see, the person swinging is actually wanting to be released from life which is why he wants to let go."
Since then, I think every poem is about suicide. I didn't know until later that Frost was known for his depression, melancholy, and pessimism. Ruined my whole image of Robert Frost as a kindly old grandpa who liked to write nice poems!
You could read it like an early "strange fruit" and see it as lynching, as it is definitely not suicide. The "I should prefer to have some boy bend them / As he went out and in to fetch the cows" would be as opposed to a man being forced to do it.
However, it is more obvious to see it as a standard Frost poem - a combination of natural/seasonal images with various references to mortality. The trees are permanently bent and disfigured by the ice of winter (scars of death) and Frost would rather see them bent by the joy of spring (memories of youth and happiness).
It is interesting that the poem focuses on boys in isolation, surrounded only by nature, and having no other entertainment than the trees. Two parts stick out:
"But I was going to say when Truth broke in With all her matter-of-fact about the ice-storm (Now am I free to be poetical?)"
and
"So was I once myself a swinger of birches. And so I dream of going back to be. It's when I'm weary of considerations,"
Somehow, in youth, the boy is able to master nature while also acting like nature (bends the trees like the winter's ice). The poem puts up a rather strange image following that last part:
And life is too much like a pathless wood Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs Broken across it, and one eye is weeping From a twig's having lashed across it open.
That isn't the mastery over trees but pathless (lack of human dominance or order) with cobwebs (no social structure, i.e. no cleaning) and causes pain.
I'd like to get away from earth awhile And then come back to it and begin over.
The bounce of the tree from swinging on it can be implied, but there is also an escapist image of leaving behind that pathless forest to some how soar above it, i.e. escape from the pains of a chaotic and wild existence into something more calm and pleasant.
May no fate willfully misunderstand me And half grant what I wish and snatch me away Not to return. Earth's the right place for love:
He makes it clear that he doesn't want to die to experience this, unlike the wanderer in the snow tha finds a sort of soothing calmness in a world that he is about to die in.
And climb black branches up a snow-white trunk Toward heaven, till the tree could bear no more, But dipped its top and set me down again. That would be good both going and coming back. One could do worse than be a swinger of birches.
He makes it clear that it is not suicide but trying to experience a transcendence on this earth. In essence, he wants to experience the sublime but not live forever in the sublime. This is a key point, as he is pointing out that he doesn't want the addictive permanence that seduces the wanderer in the snow towards death. He very much wants to live and seeks a child-like relationship with nature/immortality.
Wordsworth's Ode: Intimations of Immortality suggests the same thing.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 16th October 2010, 7:20pm)
He makes it clear that it is not suicide but trying to experience a transcendence on this earth. In essence, he wants to experience the sublime but not live forever in the sublime. This is a key point, as he is pointing out that he doesn't want the addictive permanence that seduces the wanderer in the snow towards death. He very much wants to live and seeks a child-like relationship with nature/immortality.
Or recognizes the child-like relationship, but realizes that it's vulnerable to the reach upward for knowledge, which leads inevitably and cyclically to The Fall from grace. After which the tree and the climber is never the same. You grow up and want to go back, but never can get into the garden again. Milton would point out how central the Eden myth is, in much of Frost-- there's always a penalty for going upward, and that is that you will hit the ground eventually again:
There were ten thousand thousand fruit to touch Cherish in hand, lift down, and not let fall. For all That struck the earth, No matter if not bruised or spiked with stubble, Went surely to the cider-apple heap As of no worth.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 10:59pm)
Or recognizes the child-like relationship, but realizes that it's vulnerable to the reach upward for knowledge, which leads inevitably and cyclically to The Fall from grace. After which the tree and the climber is never the same. You grow up and want to go back, but never can get into the garden again. Milton would point out how central the Eden myth is, in much of Frost-- there's always a penalty for going upward, and that is that you will hit the ground eventually again:
The "fall" seems too happy and there isn't any mention of shame (which is the mark of sin). That is why I think it is more of looking for those great moments but not wanting to always have them (rainbows are pretty but having them every day isn't special).
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 17th October 2010, 6:08am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 10:59pm)
Or recognizes the child-like relationship, but realizes that it's vulnerable to the reach upward for knowledge, which leads inevitably and cyclically to The Fall from grace. After which the tree and the climber is never the same. You grow up and want to go back, but never can get into the garden again. Milton would point out how central the Eden myth is, in much of Frost-- there's always a penalty for going upward, and that is that you will hit the ground eventually again:
The "fall" seems too happy and there isn't any mention of shame (which is the mark of sin). That is why I think it is more of looking for those great moments but not wanting to always have them (rainbows are pretty but having them every day isn't special).
The happiness in the poem is from the nostalgic memory of childish innocence, and the unhappiness derives from the permanent ground-bound state.
The Fall is (among other things) a metaphor for loss of childish innocence and simply growing up (so you can't climb trees, for one thing). That's one of the things that makes the Eden story so universal, even for non-Christians (Muslims and Buddhists, for example) who don't have any concept of Original Sin.
There isn't much shame in Frost, period, even when he's clearly talking about the fall. He's a naturalist. Even in the Eden story, the shame is mostly a nudity taboo, and would only be understood by cultures where people grow up in harsh envirments (one of the things that made Christian missionaries so hard to "translate" when they got to tropical cultures, where they were simply considered mad.)
Nature's first green is gold, Her hardest hue to hold. Her early leaf's a flower; But only so an hour. Then leaf subsides to leaf. So Eden sank to grief, So dawn goes down to day. Nothing gold can stay.
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 17th October 2010, 2:57pm)
The happiness in the poem is from the nostalgic memory of childish innocence, and the unhappiness derives from the permanent ground-bound state.
The Fall is (among other things) a metaphor for loss of childish innocence and simply growing up (so you can't climb trees, for one thing). That's one of the things that makes the Eden story so universal, even for non-Christians (Muslims and Buddhists, for example) who don't have any concept of Original Sin.
I disagree.
The joy is not in climbing but in bending, making it a "Fall" impossible. There is no lost innocence at all but a physical inability to act. Innocence is mental and perception, but this is an old man no longer able to physically indulge in childish actions.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 17th October 2010, 4:00pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 17th October 2010, 2:57pm)
The happiness in the poem is from the nostalgic memory of childish innocence, and the unhappiness derives from the permanent ground-bound state.
The Fall is (among other things) a metaphor for loss of childish innocence and simply growing up (so you can't climb trees, for one thing). That's one of the things that makes the Eden story so universal, even for non-Christians (Muslims and Buddhists, for example) who don't have any concept of Original Sin.
I disagree.
The joy is not in climbing but in bending, making it a "Fall" impossible. There is no lost innocence at all but a physical inability to act. Innocence is mental and perception, but this is an old man no longer able to physically indulge in childish actions.
Yup. Two poetry critics, three opinions, no poetry.
As my favorite professor said about the interpretation of texts, it's often best to just put your brain in hermeneutral and just read. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 16th October 2010, 2:35pm)
Looks like the author was trying for iambic pentameter, but some the other lines are dodgy, though not as bad as the Edward Taylor shit I had to read. Phillis Wheatley did better than either of them, as far as I'm concerned.
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I can think of a good use for Congo:
QUOTE
HOO, HOO, HOO. Listen to the yell of Ottava's ghost Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host. Hear how the demons chuckle and yell Cutting his hands off, down in Hell. Listen to the creepy proclamation, Blown through the lairs of the forest-nation, Blown past the white-ants' hill of clay, Blown past the marsh where the butterflies play:— "Be careful what you do, Or Mimbo-Jimbo, God of the Wiki-o,
And all of the other Gods of the Wiki-o, Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you, Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you, Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you."
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sat 16th October 2010, 2:27pm)
This thread is like a trip down memory lane where I get to revisit how overexposure to English majors can completely turn a person off to poetry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Mon 18th October 2010, 3:54pm)
I can think of a good use for Congo:
Very good. I actually thought of using Mimbo-Jimbo and you beat me to it.
Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you. Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you. Mimbo-Jimbo will hoo-doo you.
Haul out the dusty African girl Guilt ride the donors Till they hurl WP's an elephant Vandalized and terrible WP's an elephant Libelous and horrible WHEE WHEE WHEE WHEE WHEE WHEE Whip up more electrons Save another tree
THEN I SAW DER JIMBO HAULING OFF A SACK Piling up expenses with a golden track "Screw all the users, give them the finger Take all the credit, Give none to Singer" CHING, buy a washer CHING, see the hookers CHING, get the wine list CHING, steal the content, With a Ticka- ticka, ticka-ticka Ticka-ticka, ticka-ticka Bing! Ching-ah, ching-ah, ching-ah, CHING!
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Update:
It is up for vote at FAR.
This shows 1 delist, 1 restore to the FAC approved version, 1 return to current horribly flawed state and 1 rambling person who doesn't understand appropriateness for articles.
Amandajm is honestly trying to argue things should be included when the dozens of highly reliable sources didn't bother to talk about them. This person shouldn't be allowed near anything "scholarly". It is still disgraceful that they moved the highly notable and highly reliable summaries of the stanzas from the area where they are supposed to be according to both Wiki and academic standards. We don't just have copies of poems in an encyclopedia page! That is Wikisource!
Hell, this person even puts arguments that can be summarized as "well, it is needed even if it is original research".
Sigh.
P.S. the individual should be banned from all literature articles for this nonsense: "This was a serious omission. No article, in fact even the humblest 4th form essay, could possibly get a pass mark that omitted to mention this, let alone a front page article of an encyclopedia."
W. J. Bate never mentions "personification".
Harold Bloom never mentions "personification".
If you know Literature, you would know the one as the top Keats's scholar who won a pulitzer for his biography of Keats and the other the top English Literature scholar in the world.
Personification is not important, nor is it correct. Anthropomorphizing would be correct, as Autumn is given a human body, not "thoughts" or "feelings".
"The poem needs to be put in context. The cultural context of the poem is English Romantic poetry and Romantic landscape painting which was an artform of growing popularity in England"
Pure original research. The poem has nothing to do with painting. Keats didn't care about those individuals. None of the major critics even bother with it. And it was already proven that the individual couldn't even read the one source correctly.
By the way, I love how they say that "metaphor" isn't used when the word allegory is. If they knew anything, they would see that the word "metaphor" wouldn't have to be used when the poem talks about allegory. Allegory is a complex form of metaphor that transcends the intellectual stuntedness that this person wishes to impose.
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 16th October 2010, 10:59pm)
Or recognizes the child-like relationship, but realizes that it's vulnerable to the reach upward for knowledge, which leads inevitably and cyclically to The Fall from grace. After which the tree and the climber is never the same. You grow up and want to go back, but never can get into the garden again. Milton would point out how central the Eden myth is, in much of Frost — there's always a penalty for going upward, and that is that you will hit the ground eventually again:
The "fall" seems too happy and there isn't any mention of shame (which is the mark of sin). That is why I think it is more of looking for those great moments but not wanting to always have them (rainbows are pretty but having them every day isn't special).
The happiness in the poem is from the nostalgic memory of childish innocence, and the unhappiness derives from the permanent ground-bound state.
The Fall is (among other things) a metaphor for loss of childish innocence and simply growing up (so you can't climb trees, for one thing). That's one of the things that makes the Eden story so universal, even for non-Christians (Muslims and Buddhists, for example) who don't have any concept of Original Sin.
There isn't much shame in Frost, period, even when he's clearly talking about the fall. He's a naturalist. Even in the Eden story, the shame is mostly a nudity taboo, and would only be understood by cultures where people grow up in harsh envirments* (one of the things that made Christian missionaries so hard to "translate" when they got to tropical cultures, where they were simply considered mad.)
Nature's first green is gold, Her hardest hue to hold. Her early leaf's a flower; But only so an hour. Then leaf subsides to leaf. So Eden sank to grief, So dawn goes down to day. Nothing gold can stay.
Where's the shame, there, Ottava?
Gold Standard Punny Business —
Felix Culpa → Guilt → Gilt → Gelding → Fig Leaf
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This little rant by Amandajm is interesting. In it, she attacks someone for fixing her sourced information.
She then says:
"Please leave it alone, unless:
a) you get a graduate degree in architecture b) you get a divine revelation into just how "unique" and significant this building is. "
Interestingly, she doesn't have a graduate degree in English literature (or poetry in particular) as she demands for others (strike one), yet was trying to screw with an FA that was fully sourced (strike two). It is amazing how she demands original research in an FA I wrote while the most notable critics on the subject don't even bother to discuss what she wants. Then there is the fact that I have a Master's in Classics, one in British Lit, and am finishing up my dissertation right now on Keats.
These people really annoy me.
Victory mosque AfD, another major disturbance created by this user. The page is about bs and is original research to put it all together like that. It was better off as a simple delete.
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Amandajm is clearly trolling.
Claim by Amandajm: "My only problem is that in editting material from these sources, Ottava seems to have somehow missed many of the most significant points that neede to be made about the poems. It isn't the sources that are problematic; it's the poor editors apparent comprehension of the material they contain and the poor arrangement of it into an article that are the problems."
Hiatus is having a syllable end with a vowel next to a syllable beginning with a vowel in the same word. This does not appear in "To Autumn}. The source says it doesn't appear in "To Autumn"!!! What does Amandajm insist? That they are greater than Walter Jackson Bate, a Pulitizer prize winning author of -the- Keats biography and the greatest Keats scholar ever. Amandajm has no background in Literature.
FORUM WARNING [2] Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home2/wikipede/public_html/int042kj398.php:242) (Line: 0 of Unknown)
To Autumn
