Was Mantanmoreland on the SuperSekritSyberStalking list???, Durova's evidence in the Arb-com case suggests just this.... Options

[the fieryangel]

Per this section :

Now I'm not going to voice an opinion on the merits of the circumstantial evidence here. I'm of two minds, frankly. On the one hand I want to believe the best and I have serious misgivings about my decisions that led the matter here. On the other hand, I think Mantanmoreland could have lied to me and played upon my trust in a place where I came to protect my elderly uncle, and that prospect makes me very very angry.

Now, does anybody else read this as an admission that Mantanmoreland was part of this list, or am I jjumping to conclusions here???

[Aloft]

I was under the impression that it was generally understood that he was on the list. That's where the "hundreds of emails" that Jimbo and JzG have came from.

[the fieryangel]

I was under the impression that it was generally understood that he was on the list. That's where the "hundreds of emails" that Jimbo and JzG have came from.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining that part to me. I must have missed an episode!

[Proabivouac]

Per this section :

Now I'm not going to voice an opinion on the merits of the circumstantial evidence here. I'm of two minds, frankly. On the one hand I want to believe the best and I have serious misgivings about my decisions that led the matter here. On the other hand, I think Mantanmoreland could have lied to me and played upon my trust in a place where I came to protect my elderly uncle, and that prospect makes me very very angry.

Now, does anybody else read this as an admission that Mantanmoreland was part of this list, or am I jjumping to conclusions here???

It's already been confirmed on Wikipedia that both Mantanmoreland and the Samiharris sock were on the Cyberstalking list. Durova's outrage is well-warranted.

Let me point you to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...adminship/Cla68

You'll notice my name there. I still believe in those principles, but that's hardly all there was to this story. I should not have appeared (nor should probably most "voters" in most RfAs, but oh well) without studying the facts for myself. Because when I did, I came to the same conclusion as most everyone else who has.

The sad thing is that, for all its abuses, all this attack sites stuff doesn't do much to stop libel and harassment of Wikipedia contributors (to say nothing of bio subjects,) because 90+% of it is endemic to Wikipedia itself, from users who have never posted to any "attack site" and never will.

And reading this Weiss blog…yikes. I guess we need to start talking about BADATTACKSITES, because "good" ones are apparently fine. Including Wikipedia itself, which attacked Bagley left and right, in public and behind the scenes alike - even scheming to plant negative stories about him in the press, as Durova is probably aware.

Wikipedia would do best to clean its own house, and its own beam, take a look at its own principles and make sure it's living them on every page before whining about Bagley's mote.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

[LamontStormstar]

What is the "cyberstalking" mailing list exactly?

[Aloft]

I was under the impression that it was generally understood that he was on the list. That's where the "hundreds of emails" that Jimbo and JzG have came from.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining that part to me. I must have missed an episode!

Something else: I suspect that's why people like Jimbo and JzG are so resistant to believing that Mantanmoreland/Samiharris is really Gary Weiss. He played them for fools to get what he wanted, plain and simple. Their egos can't deal with that.

JzG wants nothing more to believe that he's been fighting heroically against the trolls and stalkers that have been harassing poor, poor Mantanmoreland. Now that the truth is coming out, his ego can't tolerate the bruising. He will do almost anything to cling to that tiny shred of belief that he hasn't been played. For him to accept that he was fooled this whole time will require a level a introspection that I feel he simply does not have.

[Proabivouac]

I was under the impression that it was generally understood that he was on the list. That's where the "hundreds of emails" that Jimbo and JzG have came from.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining that part to me. I must have missed an episode!

Something else: I suspect that's why people like Jimbo and JzG are so resistant to believing that Mantanmoreland/Samiharris is really Gary Weiss. He played them for fools to get what he wanted, plain and simple. Their egos can't deal with that.

JzG wants nothing more to believe that he's been fighting heroically against the trolls and stalkers that have been harassing poor, poor Mantanmoreland. Now that the truth is coming out, his ego can't tolerate the bruising. He will do almost anything to cling to that tiny shred of belief that he hasn't been played. For him to accept that he was fooled this whole time will require a level a introspection that I feel he simply does not have.

Bingo.

He played us all like the cheapest flutes.

What is the "cyberstalking" mailing list exactly?

Exactly that - a mailing list dedicated to Wikipedia contributors who have been victims of or are interested in supporting victims of stalking and harassment. Okay so far. But you can see exactly how MM/SH could abuse such an audience for his purposes.

Example: say you're at a rape crisis center, and everyone talks about her experience. What's the chance that someone's going to stand up and say, "Wait a minute, you weren't raped…you're the rapist, and you're manipulating all of us!"

Even if it's true.

[Cedric]

Okay, I'll bite: what's the deal with Durova's "elderly uncle"?

[Aloft]

Encyclopedia Dramatica used to have a picture of her uncle on their "Durova" article. Dunno where they got it, or how exactly that was a threat.

[Cedric]

Encyclopedia Dramatica used to have a picture of her uncle on their "Durova" article. Dunno where they got it, or how exactly that was a threat.

Ah yes, I think I remember now. I believe he was supposed to have been a 9-11 survivor and the reason Durova joined the Navy. Or something. I don't see what any of that has to do with Mannisox, though. On second thought, maybe I don't want to know anymore about this. Not a good idea to pursue Durova's non-sequiturs too far; that way madness lies. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)

[Daniel Brandt]

Okay, I'll bite: what's the deal with Durova's "elderly uncle"?

William Broer was on the 73rd floor of the World Trade Center when the plane flew into it on 9/11. He is Durova's uncle. Durova, before she was identified as Lise Broer, mentioned on a talk page that her uncle survived WTC, and that she had joined the U.S. Navy (as a photographer assigned to an aircraft carrier in the South Pacific) to fight the War on Terror. More than once, tough-lady Durova identified herself as a "veteran of the War on Terror," or words to that effect.

There were various clues to her real-world identity that Durova left behind on other websites, such as her stint in the Navy, several blogs she had, and her home-business or hobby craft of jewelry-making. Her connection to William Broer was the one that tied them all together after the researcher initially followed a wrong trail. I didn't do the research, although hivemind was the first to post her real name once the researcher contacted me with the evidence.

At the time that her real identity was posted at the end of April 2007, Durova was already giving interviews regarding her expertise on Wikipedia and and it's relation to Search Engine Optimization. She then gave an interview where her real name appeared in print, along with the fact that she lives in San Diego.

When Durova says, "...and played upon my trust in a place where I came to protect my elderly uncle," I have to assume that this is typical Durova hyperbole — the same way that joining the Navy was to protect the world against the Forces of Evil Terrorism.

[One]

Mantanmoreland had an uncle too! No wonder he got along so well on the list.

I like how Smallbones and the cabalists have discretely given up on Mantanmoreland and are now arguing that Samiharris must be separate.

[The Wales Hunter]

The latest wacky theory is that Mantanmoreland is Gary Weiss' wife!!!!

[Kato]

Yes, the "evidence" talk page is nuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...reland/Evidence

There's all kinds of allegations getting thrown round. Including a minor review of the bogus Poetlister/Runcorn/Taxwoman block, and someone pointing out that JzG is using two accounts to make comments, while he blocked Privatemusings for doing the very same thing previously.

[Somey]

The latest wacky theory is that Mantanmoreland is Gary Weiss' wife!!!!

Oh dear...

I don't want anyone to think I'm picking on you, TWH, and for the record I don't believe this particular theory one bit. But I wouldn't call it "wacky" at all, for two reasons: One, it was posted by My Favorite Wikipedian Ever, User:Sbharris (still #1, though admittedly his star has become somewhat tarnished over the last year or so). The other reason is that this is almost exactly the situation I myself was in, over at Uncyclopedia.

For six months I collaborated with my ex-wife on a series of Uncyclopedia articles, doing a majority of the photoshopped graphics and heavily proofreading/editing the results, as well as authoring a few in my own right. Her account had a male persona, while mine was actually somewhat "gender-neutral." And then one day, she saw a particularly offensive article there which (among other things) humorlessly stated that atheists eventually become homosexuals. She became so incensed by this that she went on a campaign against the article's author, who despite not being especially popular, had "seniority" over her - and the admins sided with him. It later turned out that this person was a 19-year-old member of the "Restoration Branch" of the LDS (Mormon) church, living only about 200 miles away in northern Missouri.

The rest of the story veers from tragic to comical and everywhere in between, and frankly I didn't expect anyone to believe me when the truth eventually came out - and sure enough, they didn't. But of course, there would have been no need for that bit of truth to come out at all, if David Gerard hadn't butted his nose in and concluded that because (1) both of us posted from Iowa, (2) had a sense of humor, and (3) wrote reasonably well, we must therefore both be User:Lir from Wikipedia. The rest, of course, is history.

I still don't expect anyone to believe that I collaborated with my ex-wife, but obviously I no longer care all that much. The important thing is that they understand that we weren't Lir, and that David Gerard is an abusive idiot as a wiki admin (though he does have a vestigial sense of humor, at least).

Anyway, weird, wacky, wangdoodle things do happen in Wikiland. It just didn't happen in Gary Weiss's case.

[Kato]

I still don't expect anyone to believe that I collaborated with my ex-wife, but obviously I no longer care all that much.

That's a coincidence, I collaborated with your ex-wife as well... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

[BobbyBombastic]

I still don't expect anyone to believe that I collaborated with my ex-wife, but obviously I no longer care all that much.

That's a coincidence, I collaborated with your ex-wife as well... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Now I have an urge to make an inappropriate Fred Bauder joke.

[guy]

Can you enlighten me as to how "vote stacking issues" can be something that _establishes someone to be a sock_, rather than, it having already been otherwise established, shows that a sock was used abusively? It doesn't seem to me that research into vote-stacking issues could possibly, alone, establish someone to be the same person as someone else, or could even significantly contribute to such a conclusion. ?ÇöRandom832 06:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well done, Random. Indeed, the key plank of the whole Runcorn/Poetlister case was that a group of people voted the same way in various AfDs and RfAs. I don't believe that there is any conclusive checkuser evidence, or someone would have said so. That case doesn't have a tenth the evidence of this.

Durova put her foot in it by mentioning it.

[GlassBeadGame]

It is a mixture of rather good and very poor evidence. ArbCom, and the "community" that sticks it's nose into the dispute has no ability to sort out the wheat from the chaff. In the end what is relied upon will only be a charade of justification for whatever is dictated by hidden influence and alliances.

[Robster]

Isn't that typical for WP? Selecting the facts to conform to the conclusion, that is?