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_ SlimVirgin _ WQ Harassment of Crum375
Posted by: Milton Roe
SlimVirgin makes some points in her essay not discussed formally here.
It was noted that the sock creation account of a user:Crum375 on WQ was a clear form of harassment (albeit not incredibly bad), but bad enough that it wouldn't be tolerated on any other decently-moderated site. So what was wrong with WQ? But several people here could not seem to get that point. PL and Yehudi among them.
Now we know why. WQ had been infected. The Crum375 creation there was a harassing gesture much like PL's setting of the badwords filter against Greg here on WR, and done by the same person. But a little more nasty on WQ than the same thing here.
Okay, so can I see a show of hands of those who thought the real Crum375 had no case against what was looking like a weird policy of WQ-- something that was not like anything an even-handed site ought to be doing? Ermmm? Who defended Crum375 against WQ laxity of policy?
There's a lesson here for people who are tempted to let their ethical standards be too affected by who is getting screwed at the moment, and whether they like them or not. WR (not counting the Poetbeast socks on it, of course) should have been a little more fair on this one. Else there's not much to distinquish us from a lot of what happens on WP.
MR
Posted by: The Joy
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 9th September 2008, 1:46pm) 
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Which one? The one on WP? People have claimed it's a Slim sock forever, but it's also been checkusered like no other account, and unless it's some really expensive "My computer controls somebody else's, over a landline" thing, they are different people. They probably know each other and are certainly of the same opinions and voting and whatever. Kabal-rabble. But Crum375 an actual SV sock? THAT would have been caught by now, unless it used unusual tech. Not everybody with checkuser and other powers on WP is a friend of Slim.
Posted by: Obesity
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:41pm)
SlimVirgin makes some points in her essay not discussed formally here.
It was noted that the sock creation account of a user:Crum375 on WQ was a clear form of harassment (albeit not incredibly bad), but bad enough that it wouldn't be tolerated on any other decently-moderated site. So what was wrong with WQ? But several people here could not seem to get that point. PL and Yehudi among them.
Now we know why. WQ had been infected. The Crum375 creation there was a harassing gesture much like PL's setting of the badwords filter against Greg here on WR, and done by the same person. But a little more nasty on WQ than the same thing here.
Okay, so can I see a show of hands of those who thought the real Crum375 had no case against what was looking like a weird policy of WQ-- something that was not like anything an even-handed site ought to be doing? Ermmm? Who defended Crum375 against WQ laxity of policy?
There's a lesson here for people who are tempted to let their ethical standards be too affected by who is getting screwed at the moment, and whether they like them or not. WR (not counting the Poetbeast socks on it, of course) should have been a little more fair on this one. Else there's not much to distinquish us from a lot of what happens on WP.
MR
This is an excellent post, and I admire MR's principled read of the situation.
I, on the other hand, have readily confessed my schadenfreude seeing the real Crum375 squirm at his inability to reason with the hostile and arbitrary powers that rule the roost over at WQ; for it is human nature to take pleasure in watching tables turned on bullies and thugs, however limited (in this case) and ultimately unsatisfying that comeuppance might be.
I.e., it's hard to feel sorry for Crummy over WQ's glib refusal to help, when SV and the gang have made so many far more miserable with their own gaming and continual re-imagining of policy to facilitate their ridiculous POV-pushing and drive off their perceived enemies.
On the other hand, when it emerged that the brains behind this merry little prank was (IMO) a genuinely malevolent nutjob, the joke becomes a little less funny. But only a little.
Posted by: Proabivouac
I suspect that the real purpose of this incident was not to prevent Crum375 from unifying his accounts, but to draw him and his allies to WikiQuote to be checkusered by the Cato sockpuppet.
Posted by: Obesity
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 10th September 2008, 12:14am)
I suspect that the real purpose of this incident was not to prevent Crum375 from unifying his accounts, but to draw him and his allies to WikiQuote to be checkusered by the Cato sockpuppet.
That's just dopey. What did he hope to find? That SV has a bunch of accounts? Maybe she does, but Crummy isn't one of them. I am 100% convinced that Crum375 is a discrete entity, with a not-so-discrete purpose.
He's boneheaded muscle, nothing more than a hired (or in this case, volunteer) thug for SlimVirgin.
She's got some sort of cyber charisma, not unlike a certain nubile statistician over whom so many otherwise sensible souls swooned. When you've got that, people do things for you.
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:51pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 9th September 2008, 1:46pm)
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Which one? The one on WP? People have claimed it's a Slim sock forever, but it's also been checkusered like no other account, and unless it's some really expensive "My computer controls somebody else's, over a landline" thing, they are different people. They probably know each other and are certainly of the same opinions and voting and whatever. Kabal-rabble. But Crum375 an actual SV sock? THAT would have been caught by now, unless it used unusual tech. Not everybody with checkuser and other powers on WP is a friend of Slim.
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
Posted by: Obesity
QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 10th September 2008, 1:10am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:51pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 9th September 2008, 1:46pm)
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Which one? The one on WP? People have claimed it's a Slim sock forever, but it's also been checkusered like no other account, and unless it's some really expensive "My computer controls somebody else's, over a landline" thing, they are different people. They probably know each other and are certainly of the same opinions and voting and whatever. Kabal-rabble. But Crum375 an actual SV sock? THAT would have been caught by now, unless it used unusual tech. Not everybody with checkuser and other powers on WP is a friend of Slim.
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
that's sooooo not the point of this thread. MR established that he knows who set up the account, as does anyone familiar with the matter:
QUOTE
The Crum375 creation there was a harassing gesture much like PL's setting of the badwords filter against Greg here on WR, and done by the same person.
The point is that no one (myself included) seemed to mind that WQ leadership (essentially comprised of Poetguy) was complicit in a blatant form of harrassment--mostly because WP-Crum himself is equally corrupt and almost universally disliked. A truly ethical person would object to the way he was treated, regardless of whether we think he's a good guy.
Posted by: Somey
QUOTE(Obesity @ Wed 10th September 2008, 12:25am)
The point is that no one (myself included) seemed to mind that WQ leadership (essentially comprised of Poetguy) was complicit in a blatant form of harrassment--mostly because WP-Crum himself is equally corrupt and almost universally disliked. A truly ethical person would object to the way he was treated, regardless of whether we think he's a good guy.
I wouldn't say "no one" - I remember at the time, several of us, including myself, agreed that it was wrong for PL to unblock the account. As for creating the account... I guess it stands to reason that he did that too, and that's even worse. But "harassment" is an exaggeration - it was a dirty trick, nothing much more than that. I don't recall there being any threats made, or flaming poo on the doorstep.
So, can't a falsely ethical person object to that sort of treatment too? I mean, why limit ourselves?
Posted by: Giggy
QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 10th September 2008, 3:10pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:51pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 9th September 2008, 1:46pm)
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Which one? The one on WP? People have claimed it's a Slim sock forever, but it's also been checkusered like no other account, and unless it's some really expensive "My computer controls somebody else's, over a landline" thing, they are different people. They probably know each other and are certainly of the same opinions and voting and whatever. Kabal-rabble. But Crum375 an actual SV sock? THAT would have been caught by now, unless it used unusual tech. Not everybody with checkuser and other powers on WP is a friend of Slim.
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
Not surprising, in retrospect. And proof that it was created as harassment (I've been suckered again; I was defending the account).
Posted by: Proabivouac
QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 10th September 2008, 5:10am)
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
Thanks for letting us know this, The Joy. We were wondering if it were MB or a collaborator (e.g. among the mods.)
Did it cross no one's mind to ask, "wait, what was that PL was accused of doing again?"
Another question: did mods know that Cato was PL?
Posted by: dogbiscuit
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 10th September 2008, 8:36am)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 10th September 2008, 5:10am)
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
Thanks for letting us know this, The Joy. We were wondering if it were MB or a collaborator (e.g. among the mods.)
Did it cross no one's mind to ask, "wait, what was that PL was accused of doing again?"
Another question: did mods know that Cato was PL?
Until Pro came forward with the evidence, I don't think any mods "knew" anything, though generally I think everyone suspected something was not right - Pro pushed an open door, though there were a couple of things that made it difficult to deal with.
In certain respects, the fact that there was an unreasonably close relationship between the players was the discomfort. It was not relevant whether they were one or several, they acted too closely in concert, but between the PL flounce and the revelation, there was a fairly unanimous decision to ride the storm and simply defend. My view was that Taxwoman had returned when the group realised they had overplayed the hand and lost all their main players, and I think Taxwoman was looking to slowly ingratiate herself back in a position of power. (We did wonder why Taxwoman re-emerged on a new account having deleted the old posts, in retrospect, I think it might have been to allow Taxwoman to be repositioned to a new, more comfortable editing habitat. We might find out if Somey restored the posts, or checked the backup file).
I think also, it was certainly my concern, that discussions were muted because we were not entirely sure that there was not another sleeper in the house (though I had no thoughts as to who that might be). The discussions on Pro's evidence as well as Pro's evidence was probably enough to make us comfortable on that score.
A couple of posts I made in August nearly made the accusation (and was intended to be a warning):
QUOTE
You[Yehudi] and TaxWoman's proxying for Guy and PL in continuing the petty bickering over a storm in a very small teacup of ego does not further [constructive use of the forum].
QUOTE
"Poetlister seemed a nice and reasonable person, why was she so consumed by Wikipedia that she was so unreasonable and fixated about Greg and his, from my perspective, trite observations?"
I think JohnA's underlying observation is sound, Wikipedia's rules can get under your skin and there is an insidious change in perspective that happens to some people as they start applying WikiThink to the rest of the world. Whether this applies to Poetlister specifically or there is some other explanation, I do not know - but the responses to Greg's perceived discourtesies appear entirely disproportionate to the majority of the uninvolved here as far as I can tell.
Those posts never got a serious reaction from PoetGuy, which I made a mental note of. Neither did any of the mods rush to say I was speaking inappropriately.
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Obesity @ Wed 10th September 2008, 12:10am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:41pm)
SlimVirgin makes some points in her essay not discussed formally here.
It was noted that the sock creation account of a user:Crum375 on WQ was a clear form of harassment (albeit not incredibly bad), but bad enough that it wouldn't be tolerated on any other decently-moderated site. So what was wrong with WQ? But several people here could not seem to get that point. PL and Yehudi among them.
Now we know why. WQ had been infected. The Crum375 creation there was a harassing gesture much like PL's setting of the badwords filter against Greg here on WR, and done by the same person. But a little more nasty on WQ than the same thing here.
Okay, so can I see a show of hands of those who thought the real Crum375 had no case against what was looking like a weird policy of WQ-- something that was not like anything an even-handed site ought to be doing? Ermmm? Who defended Crum375 against WQ laxity of policy?
There's a lesson here for people who are tempted to let their ethical standards be too affected by who is getting screwed at the moment, and whether they like them or not. WR (not counting the Poetbeast socks on it, of course) should have been a little more fair on this one. Else there's not much to distinquish us from a lot of what happens on WP.
MR
This is an excellent post, and I admire MR's principled read of the situation.
I, on the other hand, have readily confessed my schadenfreude seeing the real Crum375 squirm at his inability to reason with the hostile and arbitrary powers that rule the roost over at WQ; for it is human nature to take pleasure in watching tables turned on bullies and thugs, however limited (in this case) and ultimately unsatisfying that comeuppance might be.
I.e., it's hard to feel sorry for Crummy over WQ's glib refusal to help, when SV and the gang have made so many far more miserable with their own gaming and continual re-imagining of policy to facilitate their ridiculous POV-pushing and drive off their perceived enemies.
On the other hand, when it emerged that the brains behind this merry little prank was (IMO) a genuinely malevolent nutjob, the joke becomes a little less funny. But only a little.
I find myself in agreement with both of you, and yet I think it might be important to point out that part of the reason this prank worked so well was that Crum375 himself was apparently more keen on using connections, than on following process. The exchange on his talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crum375&oldid=231130997#Crum375_on_enwikiquote) s instructive, I think... there were several people there, including myself, trying to help but they were spurned.
You may deride following process, as Crum375 apparently did, but it's an important way to ensure traceability, repeatability, and fairness. (the alternative is to embrace back channel dealing and hidden actions) The request for a name change and usurpation could still be carried out, and I suspect at this point it would sail through. But Crum refused to follow process, choosing instead to stand on his backdoor connections, and then on the fact that he didn't care what other advice he was given, insisting that he should get his request regardless of how things actually were done. Had he made the request and had it been spurned, I would have been in there arguing that it needed to be done, as it was proper and as the other account clearly was intended to harass.
Regrettably, this part of the incident has been overlooked for the most part. I think it ought not to be.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Lar @ Wed 10th September 2008, 6:25am)
You may deride following process, as Crum375 apparently did, but it's an important way to ensure traceability, repeatability, and fairness. (the alternative is to embrace back channel dealing and hidden actions) The request for a name change and usurpation could still be carried out, and I suspect at this point it would sail through. But Crum refused to follow process, choosing instead to stand on his backdoor connections, and then on the fact that he didn't care what other advice he was given, insisting that he should get his request regardless of how things actually were done. Had he made the request and had it been spurned, I would have been in there arguing that it needed to be done, as it was proper and as the other account clearly was intended to harass.
It's not just a matter of following process; a polite request made out of process would have generated less animosity as well ("I don't know what the proper way to deal with this is, so could you help me out here?"). However, Crum's approach was anything but polite, and the wanton thuggery combined with blatant influence peddling really revealed a lot about the characters of most of the players in the incident.Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 10th September 2008, 1:10am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:51pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 9th September 2008, 1:46pm)
I think it's obvious who Crum375 is.
Which one? The one on WP? People have claimed it's a Slim sock forever, but it's also been checkusered like no other account, and unless it's some really expensive "My computer controls somebody else's, over a landline" thing, they are different people. They probably know each other and are certainly of the same opinions and voting and whatever. Kabal-rabble. But Crum375 an actual SV sock? THAT would have been caught by now, unless it used unusual tech. Not everybody with checkuser and other powers on WP is a friend of Slim.
It was Guy, now known as PoetGuy. He bragged about it a few times on the then-Sekrit forum.
I suppose there's no reason to keep it a secret now.
Due to a lack of evidence and my own bad memory, I can no longer vouch for whether Guy was Crum or not. I remember a conversation about it, but the details are now fuzzy.
I apologize.
Posted by: One
QUOTE(Obesity @ Wed 10th September 2008, 4:21am)
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 10th September 2008, 12:14am)
I suspect that the real purpose of this incident was not to prevent Crum375 from unifying his accounts, but to draw him and his allies to WikiQuote to be checkusered by the Cato sockpuppet.
That's just dopey. What did he hope to find? That SV has a bunch of accounts? Maybe she does, but Crummy isn't one of them. I am 100% convinced that Crum375 is a discrete entity, with a not-so-discrete purpose.
He's boneheaded muscle, nothing more than a hired (or in this case, volunteer) thug for SlimVirgin.
She's got some sort of cyber charisma, not unlike a certain nubile statistician over whom so many otherwise sensible souls swooned. When you've got that, people do things for you.
Yes, I've no doubt that Crum375 is a separate entity. Although it is possible there's some password sharing, there's no way the two can edit simultaneously like they do, and across hours like they do. To wit: Crum375 has a job, or some other reason to be awake during the daytime, and Slim sleeps like a college student trapped in a mineshaft.
But: I think Proabivouac's theory is correct. PoetGuy also had access to IP addresses here. Every cabalist to sign up is potentially a sleeper agent on WR. Knowing this would be fairly powerful information for the MMORPG.
Excellent post, Milton Roe.
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(Lar @ Wed 10th September 2008, 11:25am)
QUOTE(Obesity @ Wed 10th September 2008, 12:10am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 9th September 2008, 4:41pm)
SlimVirgin makes some points in her essay not discussed formally here.
It was noted that the sock creation account of a user:Crum375 on WQ was a clear form of harassment (albeit not incredibly bad), but bad enough that it wouldn't be tolerated on any other decently-moderated site. So what was wrong with WQ? But several people here could not seem to get that point. PL and Yehudi among them.
Now we know why. WQ had been infected. The Crum375 creation there was a harassing gesture much like PL's setting of the badwords filter against Greg here on WR, and done by the same person. But a little more nasty on WQ than the same thing here.
Okay, so can I see a show of hands of those who thought the real Crum375 had no case against what was looking like a weird policy of WQ-- something that was not like anything an even-handed site ought to be doing? Ermmm? Who defended Crum375 against WQ laxity of policy?
There's a lesson here for people who are tempted to let their ethical standards be too affected by who is getting screwed at the moment, and whether they like them or not. WR (not counting the Poetbeast socks on it, of course) should have been a little more fair on this one. Else there's not much to distinquish us from a lot of what happens on WP.
MR
This is an excellent post, and I admire MR's principled read of the situation.
I, on the other hand, have readily confessed my schadenfreude seeing the real Crum375 squirm at his inability to reason with the hostile and arbitrary powers that rule the roost over at WQ; for it is human nature to take pleasure in watching tables turned on bullies and thugs, however limited (in this case) and ultimately unsatisfying that comeuppance might be.
I.e., it's hard to feel sorry for Crummy over WQ's glib refusal to help, when SV and the gang have made so many far more miserable with their own gaming and continual re-imagining of policy to facilitate their ridiculous POV-pushing and drive off their perceived enemies.
On the other hand, when it emerged that the brains behind this merry little prank was (IMO) a genuinely malevolent nutjob, the joke becomes a little less funny. But only a little.
I find myself in agreement with both of you, and yet I think it might be important to point out that part of the reason this prank worked so well was that Crum375 himself was apparently more keen on using connections, than on following process. The exchange on his talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crum375&oldid=231130997#Crum375_on_enwikiquote) s instructive, I think... there were several people there, including myself, trying to help but they were spurned.
You may deride following process, as Crum375 apparently did, but it's an important way to ensure traceability, repeatability, and fairness. (the alternative is to embrace back channel dealing and hidden actions) The request for a name change and usurpation could still be carried out, and I suspect at this point it would sail through. But Crum refused to follow process, choosing instead to stand on his backdoor connections, and then on the fact that he didn't care what other advice he was given, insisting that he should get his request regardless of how things actually were done. Had he made the request and had it been spurned, I would have been in there arguing that it needed to be done, as it was proper and as the other account clearly was intended to harass.
Regrettably, this part of the incident has been overlooked for the most part. I think it ought not to be.
So, Crum still hasn't made a polite, formal request as instructed to fix that account on WQ?
Posted by: The Joy
Aphaia has warned Jayjg to back off or else!
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User_talk:Aphaia#Crum375
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User_talk:Jayjg#Changing_username
But I fear for Aphaia. With WQ being considered for deletion and the PoetGuy scandal, I fear she is not well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crum375&diff=237711584&oldid=237502471
I wonder if Stewards will swoop in and interfere with WQ? I don't think Jimbo has been too happy with WQ's response to PoetGuy and copyright laws.
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 12th September 2008, 1:36am)
Aphaia has warned Jayjg to back off or else!
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User_talk:Aphaia#Crum375
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User_talk:Jayjg#Changing_username
But I fear for Aphaia. With WQ being considered for deletion and the PoetGuy scandal, I fear she is not well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crum375&diff=237711584&oldid=237502471
I wonder if Stewards will swoop in and interfere with WQ? I don't think Jimbo has been too happy with WQ's response to PoetGuy and copyright laws.
I think they'll leave her alone. That exchange she had with Jayjg, however, was really bizarre. If I could read and speak Japanese better, I might try to open a dialogue with her in her first language. But, my Japanese is so lousy I would probably just royally screw up any attempt at conversation.
Posted by: The Joy
I can't remember exactly, but long ago, an account impersonating Aphaia was on the English Wikipedia. Aphaia asked the Wikipedia community to stop him, but her request was denied. So, she's more than a little angry that they are telling her that she should do for Crum what Wikipedia refused to do for her. I don't blame her for her anger at Wikipedia hypocrisy in this case.
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 12th September 2008, 2:16am)
I can't remember exactly, but long ago, an account impersonating Aphaia was on the English Wikipedia. Aphaia asked the Wikipedia community to stop him, but her request was denied. So, she's more than a little angry that they are telling her that she should do for Crum what Wikipedia refused to do for her. I don't blame her for her anger at Wikipedia hypocrisy in this case.
Ah, so that's where it's coming from. Was Jayjg involved with her problems with Wikipedia?
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Thu 11th September 2008, 10:35pm)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 12th September 2008, 2:16am)
I can't remember exactly, but long ago, an account impersonating Aphaia was on the English Wikipedia. Aphaia asked the Wikipedia community to stop him, but her request was denied. So, she's more than a little angry that they are telling her that she should do for Crum what Wikipedia refused to do for her. I don't blame her for her anger at Wikipedia hypocrisy in this case.
Ah, so that's where it's coming from. Was Jayjg involved with her problems with Wikipedia?
I think Aphaia is just mad at Wikipedia in general for not helping her. I'll have to search through the WR archives. I think it was discussed here months ago.
But http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jayjg&diff=prev&oldid=814408, the impersonator actually requested a name change, but no b'crat enacted the decision.
Posted by: Random832
QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 12th September 2008, 2:16am)
I can't remember exactly, but long ago, an account impersonating Aphaia was on the English Wikipedia. Aphaia asked the Wikipedia community to stop him, but her request was denied. So, she's more than a little angry that they are telling her that she should do for Crum what Wikipedia refused to do for her. I don't blame her for her anger at Wikipedia hypocrisy in this case.
The WP renaming policy has moved on since then (and the account was renamed in August) - and, what, she's going to hold all of enwp responsible for a bad call* made back in 2007 by - Essjay, of all people? What is this "Wikipedia hypocrisy"? Wikipedia has thousands of users. And two wrongs don't make a right in any case.
*And it was indeed a monumentally bad call, given that the account said "Sorry, now I have no time to do that. It is not easier than you thought. I promise I will have changed my name until end of this month.
If you would not like to wait, it will be better for me and you to ask any administrators for changing my name for instance, if it is possible. Thank you. ___________ 17:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC) " and Essjay refused the rename on 21 February.
Posted by: Rootology
All the PoetGuy stuff aside (and amazing, how he's now the base protagonist in what, several major long-term or ongoing dramas?), this is a stark comment by Aphaia, emphasis mine:
QUOTE
Wikiquote is no colony of Wikipedia. Wikipedia request page is no place for this purpose. Thanks. --Aphaia 06:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Wow. I had a feeling SUL would lead to things like this, but I never imagined quite so boldly.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 12th September 2008, 12:27pm)
QUOTE
Wikiquote is no colony of Wikipedia. Wikipedia request page is no place for this purpose. Thanks. --Aphaia 06:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Wow. I had a feeling SUL would lead to things like this, but I never imagined quite so boldly.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Fri 12th September 2008, 10:50am)
QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 12th September 2008, 12:27pm)
QUOTE
Wikiquote is no colony of Wikipedia. Wikipedia request page is no place for this purpose. Thanks. --Aphaia 06:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Wow. I had a feeling SUL would lead to things like this, but I never imagined quite so boldly.
Perhaps this is the way Jimbo's power will end: the way the USSR ultimately came apart. The various Wikiprojects tell Jimbo to fuck off, and when they do, everybody realizes there's nothing Jimbo can do about it without the entire WMF board approval. Which underscores that the WMF board has the power, not Jimbo, and they're not going to use it, merely to let Jimbo throw his weight around, in other rebellious projects (including those where he can't speak the language).
Jimbo has used the modern English monarchy analogy too many times for his own good. He's going to find out that the analogy is going to be closer than he likes, soon enough. In fact, had QE II behaved like Diana at the same age, we might not even HAVE a modern English monarchy. And that's what Jimbo's been doing.
Posted by: that one guy
En-wiki arbcom as well. People are getting dissatisfied with them.
Posted by: Rootology
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Changing_username/Usurpation#Crum375_-.3E_any_name_desired
Official request is up for a rename, and officially declined. 
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 12th September 2008, 7:38pm)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Changing_username/Usurpation#Crum375_-.3E_any_name_desired
Official request is up for a rename, and officially declined.
I read that as the decline was reversed on my request, but left to another of the 3 'crats to resolve. Newyorkbrad commented as well. I of course think that account should be moved out of the way so the SUL account can have the name.
Posted by: Viridae
Thatcher is being quite blunt: http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote%3AChanging_username%2FUsurpation&diff=814947&oldid=814900
Posted by: Proabivouac
QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 13th September 2008, 2:50am)
Thatcher is being quite blunt: http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote%3AChanging_username%2FUsurpation&diff=814947&oldid=814900
Aphaia must be dismissed for terminal bad judgment and incompetence. That this has not been done already testifies to the Foundation's own bad judgment and incompetence, as did Mr. Bass' approval of Cato's checkuser rights. Both should be dismissed.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 12th September 2008, 7:59pm)
QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 13th September 2008, 2:50am)
Thatcher is being quite blunt: http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote%3AChanging_username%2FUsurpation&diff=814947&oldid=814900
Aphaia must be dismissed for terminal bad judgment and incompetence. That this has not been done already testifies to the Foundation's own bad judgment and incompetence, as did Mr. Bass' approval of Cato's checkuser rights. Both should be dismissed.
As somebody mentioned, the kindest interpretation is that Aphaia's language skills are not so good in English, and she has missed that Bedivere is checkusered Cato, and on en.wiki, Bedivere has the fingerprint we all know as the MBeast, Quillercouch.
I know Cla has thought of this, but somebody really needs to compose a good Haiku to get through to the lady.
Cato is Poetlister
Hanami is really not fun
When sakura is shit
Posted by: that one guy
All this to me is just people whining like spoiled brats that don't get what they want.
Posted by: Lar
This may be of some relevance
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium#Statement_on_use_of_socks
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(that one guy @ Sat 13th September 2008, 12:19pm)
All this to me is just people whining like spoiled brats that don't get what they want.
Maybe I'm not the person to comment on that
but I think Crum375 has a legitimate cause to request renaming, and the Foundation has the right to enforce it if the local bureaucrats won't. I'm on board with Thatcher's opinion here. If I were in Crum375's situation, where a single impostor was holding up my SUL, I'd be annoyed too. (In my own circumstance, when there was a user on Polish Wikipedia and Commons who was and still is named Shalom, I voluntarily communicated with him and decided to rename myself so that he could keep his name.) Stewards typically arbitrate SUL conflicts. This case looks pretty clear to me.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Shalom @ Sat 13th September 2008, 8:27pm)
Maybe I'm not the person to comment on that but I think Crum375 has a legitimate cause to request renaming, and the Foundation has the right to enforce it if the local bureaucrats won't. I'm on board with Thatcher's opinion here. If I were in Crum375's situation, where a single impostor was holding up my SUL, I'd be annoyed too. (In my own circumstance, when there was a user on Polish Wikipedia and Commons who was and still is named Shalom, I voluntarily communicated with him and decided to rename myself so that he could keep his name.) Stewards typically arbitrate SUL conflicts. This case looks pretty clear to me.
I think Crum's entitled to the rename, but the way he went about getting it was just about as socially nonoptimal as possible. On the other hand, it's certain that the WQ bureaucracy is unfriendly to Slim and co. and would have probably denied the request even if made politely. but I think Crum375 has a legitimate cause to request renaming, and the Foundation has the right to enforce it if the local bureaucrats won't. I'm on board with Thatcher's opinion here. If I were in Crum375's situation, where a single impostor was holding up my SUL, I'd be annoyed too. (In my own circumstance, when there was a user on Polish Wikipedia and Commons who was and still is named Shalom, I voluntarily communicated with him and decided to rename myself so that he could keep his name.) Stewards typically arbitrate SUL conflicts. This case looks pretty clear to me.Part of the problem is that WQ doesn't appear to have a sane bureaucrat; Aphaia is, frankly, a froot loop, and half the rest of the b'crats there are Poetguy. So you've got assholes and fruitcakes all around, and in a situation like that a positive outcome is about as likely as winning the lottery.
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(Lar @ Sat 13th September 2008, 9:26pm)
This may be of some relevance
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium#Statement_on_use_of_socks
This probably belongs in a separate thread, to be titled "Poetguy's confession" or similar.
I'll quote it here for people who are too lazy (or whose browsers are too slow) to click a link:
QUOTE
Statement on use of socks
I have used a variety of names on different Wikis. The following are cross-wiki (including ones created by SUL but never used), but the unattached ones are not me.
Bedivere [10]
Cato [11]
Londoneye [12]
Poetlister [13]
Quillercouch [14]
Runcorn (no SUL) is on en:wp, en:Wiktionary and Meta (the ones on arwiki and enwikiquote are not me).
Yehudi [15]
Crum375 is on en:wq
The following are on en:wp with no SUL:
Brownlee
Habashia
Holdenhurst
Newport
Osidge
R613vlu
RachelBrown
Runcorn
Simul8
Taxwoman (also Commons)
Whipmaster
This list is as complete as I can make it; I have double checked and believe that there are no omissions. I sincerely and thoroughly apologise to everyone and beg their forgiveness. - Cato (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, if Cato were reading this (I could email, but whatever), I'd say I forgive the sockpuppetry per se, but I don't forgive all the time I spent trying to plead to ArbCom for his innocence when he wasn't actually innocent. I also would like to see him limit himself to one account on all Wikimedia projects, and resign adminship from all accounts other than the one he is using on those projects. I hope that's not too much to ask, and it would move me toward forgiving this jerk for the time I wasted on him.
I am struck by how similar his confession looks to my own a year ago, but there are significant differences. Still, it helps to understand what others think of me, which is not what I think of myself, and therein lies a problem for me to work on offline.
Some of these accounts (e.g. Habashia) were editing while Runcorn/Poetlister was banned. I don't take issue with a banned user starting over and doing only good things, and not telling anyone, as long as he doesn't try to convince anyone that he's waiting out his ban and wishes to be reinstated as his old username. I specifically advised "Poetlister" by email to give up and start over under a new account if things didn't work out, and he told me that he didn't just want to edit WP, he wanted to do it under his known name. Yehudi bolstered that argument here on WR, saying that Poetlister had a reputation that was hurt by being banned on WP. This part of the deception really bothers me. If Poetguy were really guilty as charged but nonetheless was waiting out his ban in the faint hope of reinstatement, I might understand, but that he was editing while he was still banned, and simultaneously trying to get unbanned on his old account, shows a level of deception beyond what I previously perceived.
Posted by: Rootology
Surprise, surprise. WQ has no reason not to rename now.
Why is this guy not banned from there entirely?
Especially as he BEGAN the new crum war to get back at him and Slim?
Posted by: One
Of all battles to fight over the issue of enwp colonialism, this was a real loser.
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 13th September 2008, 5:21am)
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 12th September 2008, 7:59pm)
QUOTE(Viridae @ Sat 13th September 2008, 2:50am)
Thatcher is being quite blunt: http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote%3AChanging_username%2FUsurpation&diff=814947&oldid=814900
Aphaia must be dismissed for terminal bad judgment and incompetence. That this has not been done already testifies to the Foundation's own bad judgment and incompetence, as did Mr. Bass' approval of Cato's checkuser rights. Both should be dismissed.
As somebody mentioned, the kindest interpretation is that Aphaia's language skills are not so good in English, and she has missed that Bedivere is checkusered Cato, and on en.wiki, Bedivere has the fingerprint we all know as the MBeast, Quillercouch.
I know Cla has thought of this, but somebody really needs to compose a good Haiku to get through to the lady.
Cato is Poetlister
Hanami is really not fun
When sakura is shit
I could ask my wife to explain it in Japanese to Aphaia. If you haven't guessed already, my wife is native Japanese. The problem with that course of action is that my wife thinks that Wikipedia and everything about it is a massive waste of time and a complete blight and blackmark in the history of the Internet. If I tried to explain it to her and ask for her help in this situation I predict the response would be an exaggerated rolling of the eyes and an immediate request (i.e. demand) for me to go take out the garbage or change the baby's diaper. I think Aphaia's obsession with running wikiquote the way she's running it would only enhance my wife's opinion in this regard.
Anyway, it's interesting that WR participants are helping to try to fix this for Crum. In spite of the irritating way that Crum tried to fix it himself using cronyism, it is the right thing to do.
Posted by: Cedric
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sun 14th September 2008, 1:16am)
I could ask my wife to explain it in Japanese to Aphaia. If you haven't guessed already, my wife is native Japanese. The problem with that course of action is that my wife thinks that Wikipedia and everything about it is a massive waste of time and a complete blight and blackmark in the history of the Internet. If I tried to explain it to her and ask for her help in this situation I predict the response would be an exaggerated rolling of the eyes and an immediate request (i.e. demand) for me to go take out the garbage or change the baby's diaper. I think Aphaia's obsession with running wikiquote the way she's running it would only enhance my wife's opinion in this regard.
Your wife sounds like a very sensible person. Perhaps you should listen to her more.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:28am)
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sun 14th September 2008, 1:16am)
I could ask my wife to explain it in Japanese to Aphaia. If you haven't guessed already, my wife is native Japanese. The problem with that course of action is that my wife thinks that Wikipedia and everything about it is a massive waste of time and a complete blight and blackmark in the history of the Internet. If I tried to explain it to her and ask for her help in this situation I predict the response would be an exaggerated rolling of the eyes and an immediate request (i.e. demand) for me to go take out the garbage or change the baby's diaper. I think Aphaia's obsession with running wikiquote the way she's running it would only enhance my wife's opinion in this regard.
Your wife sounds like a very sensible person. Perhaps you should listen to her more.
Or, you can explain that you ARE taking out garbage, and/or changing a diaper, with this stuff. Except it's the internet.
Evolution and entropy operate in all systems, at all levels, all the time.
It's not the diaper changing and garbage collection I object to. It's the work it takes to collect poop and garbage on WP when Jimbo's rules don't allow diapers and garbage cans. But other people seem to enjoy it, so fine.
And then there's the other basic problem that Jimbo himself cannot often tell shit from shinola. Perhaps Aphaia can't either.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 13th September 2008, 11:16pm)
Anyway, it's interesting that WR participants are helping to try to fix this for Crum. In spite of the irritating way that Crum tried to fix it himself using cronyism, it is the right thing to do.
Well, now there's something I just learned about, called SUL, which was origionally Single User Login. Anyway, once you register that way it reserves your username all across Wikispace. It doesn't give you any userrights, but it does stop other people from using your username anyplace else. Perhaps Crum could do Crum374 as SUL somewhere, and ask for rename to this on en.wiki.
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 9:24pm)
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 13th September 2008, 11:16pm)
Anyway, it's interesting that WR participants are helping to try to fix this for Crum. In spite of the irritating way that Crum tried to fix it himself using cronyism, it is the right thing to do.
Well, now there's something I just learned about, called SUL, which was origionally Single User Login. Anyway, once you register that way it reserves your username all across Wikispace. It doesn't give you any userrights, but it does stop other people from using your username anyplace else. Perhaps Crum could do Crum374 as SUL somewhere, and ask for rename to this on en.wiki.
Yeah, Crum375 could give in and rename himself, but why should he? At worst, if the impasse is not resolved, he looks better standing his ground than giving in to a serial sockpuppeteer and a broken bureaucracy on Wikiquote.
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 9:24pm)
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 13th September 2008, 11:16pm)
Anyway, it's interesting that WR participants are helping to try to fix this for Crum. In spite of the irritating way that Crum tried to fix it himself using cronyism, it is the right thing to do.
Well, now there's something I just learned about, called SUL, which was origionally Single User Login. Anyway, once you register that way it reserves your username all across Wikispace. It doesn't give you any userrights, but it does stop other people from using your username anyplace else. Perhaps Crum could do Crum374 as SUL somewhere, and ask for rename to this on en.wiki.
See the http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=Quillercouch&page=&year=&month=-1.
This matter is sorted on en:wq I believe, as the name is now reserved and can't be used by anyone else once it is renamed out of the way as PL did.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Lar @ Sun 14th September 2008, 6:53pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 9:24pm)
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 13th September 2008, 11:16pm)
Anyway, it's interesting that WR participants are helping to try to fix this for Crum. In spite of the irritating way that Crum tried to fix it himself using cronyism, it is the right thing to do.
Well, now there's something I just learned about, called SUL, which was origionally Single User Login. Anyway, once you register that way it reserves your username all across Wikispace. It doesn't give you any userrights, but it does stop other people from using your username anyplace else. Perhaps Crum could do Crum374 as SUL somewhere, and ask for rename to this on en.wiki.
See the http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=Quillercouch&page=&year=&month=-1.
This matter is sorted on en:wq I believe, as the name is now reserved and can't be used by anyone else once it is renamed out of the way as PL did.
So fixed, now, yes, even without Crum375 having to register this name as an SUL?
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 14th September 2008, 5:28pm)
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sun 14th September 2008, 1:16am)
I could ask my wife to explain it in Japanese to Aphaia. If you haven't guessed already, my wife is native Japanese. The problem with that course of action is that my wife thinks that Wikipedia and everything about it is a massive waste of time and a complete blight and blackmark in the history of the Internet. If I tried to explain it to her and ask for her help in this situation I predict the response would be an exaggerated rolling of the eyes and an immediate request (i.e. demand) for me to go take out the garbage or change the baby's diaper. I think Aphaia's obsession with running wikiquote the way she's running it would only enhance my wife's opinion in this regard.
Your wife sounds like a very sensible person. Perhaps you should listen to her more.
I knew someone was going to say that.
Posted by: Shalom
Good for Poetguy for taking care of this.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Shalom @ Sun 14th September 2008, 7:37pm)
Good for Poetguy for taking care of this.
I am truly amazed that he as Quillercouch still has admin privileges on WQ to do it with, but I can't argue with the rename action itself. One small/tiny bit of damage undone. Though it leaves Quillercouch with one more sock, named Scotsman, to be sure.
Or did I miss something there also?But would somebody like to explain to me why somebody else can't still go back on WQ and create a Crum375 account?
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:03pm)
So fixed, now, yes, even without Crum375 having to register this name as an SUL?
It is registered as an SUL. That's presumably how Crum375 found the problem, when he went to unify, there were two accounts that did not get unified because they did not match passwords/emails. This was one of them, but now that it's renamed out of the way, the next time he goes to en:wq while logged in globally, it will be created again there, belonging to him, and until then, it's now reserved. So, all sorted. He need not ever go there again, in fact, but no one can use it. (that's one of the beauties of SUL, once you unify, you're protected against impersonation everywhere... I unified all my socks as soon as I could)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:44pm)
I am truly amazed that he as Quillercouch still has admin privileges on WQ to do it with, but I can't argue with the rename action itself. One small/tiny bit of damage undone. Though it leaves Quillercouch with one more sock, named Scotsman, to be sure.
Or did I miss something there also?Correct... if it was a concern PL could be asked to cede control of it to someone else.
QUOTE
But would somebody like to explain to me why somebody else can't still go back on WQ and create a Crum375 account?
Because that's not how SUL works.
Posted by: Gold heart
QUOTE(Lar @ Mon 15th September 2008, 3:57am)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:03pm)
So fixed, now, yes, even without Crum375 having to register this name as an SUL?
It is registered as an SUL. That's presumably how Crum375 found the problem, when he went to unify, there were two accounts that did not get unified because they did not match passwords/emails. This was one of them, but now that it's renamed out of the way, the next time he goes to en:wq while logged in globally, it will be created again there, belonging to him, and until then, it's now reserved. So, all sorted. He need not ever go there again, in fact, but no one can use it. (that's one of the beauties of SUL, once you unify, you're protected against impersonation everywhere... I unified all my socks as soon as I could)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:44pm)
I am truly amazed that he as Quillercouch still has admin privileges on WQ to do it with, but I can't argue with the rename action itself. One small/tiny bit of damage undone. Though it leaves Quillercouch with one more sock, named Scotsman, to be sure.
Or did I miss something there also?Correct... if it was a concern PL could be asked to cede control of it to someone else.
QUOTE
But would somebody like to explain to me why somebody else can't still go back on WQ and create a Crum375 account?
Because that's not how SUL works.
What's SUL??
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Gold heart @ Sun 14th September 2008, 11:00pm)
What's SUL??
Technically? It's a mediawiki extension. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/SUL may help.
Practically? It's been a lot more work for Stewards... but also it makes a lot of things better and easier for everyone.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Lar @ Sun 14th September 2008, 7:57pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 14th September 2008, 10:03pm)
So fixed, now, yes, even without Crum375 having to register this name as an SUL?
It is registered as an SUL. That's presumably how Crum375 found the problem, when he went to unify, there were two accounts that did not get unified because they did not match passwords/emails. This was one of them, but now that it's renamed out of the way, the next time he goes to en:wq while logged in globally, it will be created again there, belonging to him, and until then, it's now reserved.
Ah, I see. So since an SUL already, fixes itself automatically as soon as all blocks are removed, which this last one now has been, by Quillercouch. Thanx.
Posted by: Shalom
I just tried to create an account for Crum375 on Wikiquote and was unable to (WP:BEANS). So if you don't believe in how SUL works, just try it and you'll see.
In the WP:BEANS department, SUL won't prevent you from vandalizing the userpage of an editor you dislike on a different project.
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(Shalom @ Mon 15th September 2008, 12:55am)
I just tried to create an account for Crum375 on Wikiquote and was unable to (WP:BEANS). So if you don't believe in how SUL works, just try it and you'll see.
In the WP:BEANS department, SUL won't prevent you from vandalizing the userpage of an editor you dislike on a different project.
So if do the SUL thing and my account name happens to be that of a Grawp-like vandal causing pain on the Armenian, Kurdish, and Swahili Wikipedias, am I screwed?
Posted by: Shalom
QUOTE(The Joy @ Mon 15th September 2008, 1:21am)
QUOTE(Shalom @ Mon 15th September 2008, 12:55am)
I just tried to create an account for Crum375 on Wikiquote and was unable to (WP:BEANS). So if you don't believe in how SUL works, just try it and you'll see.
In the WP:BEANS department, SUL won't prevent you from vandalizing the userpage of an editor you dislike on a different project.
So if do the SUL thing and my account name happens to be that of a Grawp-like vandal causing pain on the Armenian, Kurdish, and Swahili Wikipedias, am I screwed?
Only if the folks at Kurdish, Armenian and Swahili Wikipedians care to make a fuss on English Wikipedia. I was thinking more about creating a page on Swahili Wikipedia to say English Wikipedia admin [insert name here] is [insert insult here].
Posted by: Random832
QUOTE(Shalom @ Mon 15th September 2008, 5:44am)
QUOTE(The Joy @ Mon 15th September 2008, 1:21am)
QUOTE(Shalom @ Mon 15th September 2008, 12:55am)
I just tried to create an account for Crum375 on Wikiquote and was unable to (WP:BEANS). So if you don't believe in how SUL works, just try it and you'll see.
In the WP:BEANS department, SUL won't prevent you from vandalizing the userpage of an editor you dislike on a different project.
So if do the SUL thing and my account name happens to be that of a Grawp-like vandal causing pain on the Armenian, Kurdish, and Swahili Wikipedias, am I screwed?
Only if the folks at Kurdish, Armenian and Swahili Wikipedians care to make a fuss on English Wikipedia.
Actually, I think it's not possible to merge accounts at all if someone else controls an account with the same name with more edits than any account you control - you'd have to arrange for them to be renamed (whereas in this case there was no trouble merging the accounts - the other one was just left unmerged)
Posted by: anthony
QUOTE(Lar @ Mon 15th September 2008, 2:57am)
I unified all my socks as soon as I could
Yes, it's much better to unify your socks straight out of the dryer, rather than trying to match them up when you're late for work.
I usually get my wife to unify my socks, though.
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(anthony @ Mon 15th September 2008, 11:24am)
QUOTE(Lar @ Mon 15th September 2008, 2:57am)
I unified all my socks as soon as I could
I usually get my wife to unify my socks, though.
Meatpuppetry!?!
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(anthony @ Mon 15th September 2008, 8:24am)
QUOTE(Lar @ Mon 15th September 2008, 2:57am)
I unified all my socks as soon as I could
Yes, it's much better to unify your socks straight out of the dryer, rather than trying to match them up when you're late for work.
I usually get my wife to unify my socks, though.
That must be helpful. Mrs. Arnold Palmer was once on the Johnny Carson show, and was asked if there was any thing she did to help her husband's golf performance. She said yes, she kissed his balls. Johnny Carson was unable to help himself on the retort and I believe she sued him. Settled out of court for undisclosed sum.