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> Wikipedia: A Threat To Civil Society, No More Monsieur Nice Guy
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Jonny Cache
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No More Monsieur Nice Guy

After all this time, I get the feeling that many people, even many denizens of The Wikipedia Review, fail to comprehend the magnitude of the threat to Civil Society that is posed by Wikipedia and its ways.

And every time I get a glimmer of hope that Wikipedians themselves might just get their ways back on the path to recovery of humane good sense — well, they never fail to dash those hopes back into the mud of what they seem bound and determined to remain.

In order that some of you who know me best will understand the change in tactics that I must now undertake, I will try to lay out as clearly as I can why I think that Wikipedia and its ways pose the kind of danger to society that all people of good will must eventually oppose.

Jon Awbrey


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Let us revisit the Evidence Presented by SlimVirgin to the Wikipedia Arbitration Committee (WAC) in the matter of "Attack Sites", as that was the incident that incited me to take the novel if not indeed virginal step, for me, of trying to Talk To The ArbCom — its's the new Talk To The Hand — under the authorship of Name Redacted.

QUOTE

Evidence presented by SlimVirgin

The controversy over attack sites was created by people who regularly post to those sites. They created a bunch of slippery-slope strawman positions — "the policy means we can't link to the New York Times!!!" — that other Wikipedians mistook as an implication of the real position.

Some common sense is needed. The anti-linking position is simply this:

Wikipedia should not link to websites set up for the purpose of harassing its volunteers. Harassment in this context refers to cyberstalking, offline stalking, outing people without their consent, humiliating them sexually, or threatening them with physical violence. Even if a website appears not to have been created for that purpose, if a *substantial* amount of its content is devoted to any of the above, it counts as an attack site that should not be linked to anywhere on Wikipedia.

The only websites affected are Wikipedia Review, Encyclopedia Dramatica, Wikipedia Watch, AntiSocialMedia, and a webpage run by Nobs01. Users who try to apply it to michaelmoore.com are simply mistaken. Mistaken application of policy need not affect the policy itself: if it did, we'd have no policies, given that they're all misapplied on a daily basis.

The anti-linking position needn't undermine content. If any of these sites becomes the focus of stories published by multiple reliable sources, and is therefore added to the main namespace, there would still be no need to link to it — our source for material about a notable website would be the reliable source, not the website itself. Mainstream newspapers writing about newsworthy websites that contain defamation or threats of violence often don't even name them, and they certainly don't offer URLs. Their attitude is "this is news and therefore we're reporting it", rather than "hey, come and have a look!"

The important point is that stalkers who create websites for the purpose of scaring our volunteers shouldn't be rewarded by having links to their sites posted by the same project that exposed the volunteer to the stalking in the first place. That is surely a matter of basic common sense and decency. If a rare and unforeseen situation arises where doing so really is necessary, then IAR applies, but those exceptions needn't affect the basic position.

Finally, just because we have a policy (written or otherwise) that says these sites shouldn't be linked to doesn't mean that every single instance of such a link must always and immediately be removed, and posters blocked. It's a policy best enforced with a cluestick rather than a sledgehammer. SlimVirgin 03:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


In view of the evidence that Name Redacted is now and forever blocked by the Jay J.G. known as Jpgordon — incidentally supplying continuing evidence, as if it were ever in short supply, of exactly what kind of "welcome" Wikipedia holds out to "any serious, well thought out criticism of Wikipedia" — I will continue my responses in a Forum where the capacity for critical reason is not yet an altogether lost cause.

Jon Awbrey

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QUOTE(Jonny Cache @ Thu 20th September 2007, 7:42am) *

Let us revisit the Evidence Presented by SlimVirgin to the Wikipedia Arbitration Committee (WAC) in the matter of "Attack Sites", as that was the incident that incited me to take the novel if not indeed virginal step, for me, of trying to Talk To The ArbCom — its's the new Talk To The Hand — under the authorship of Name Redacted.

QUOTE

Evidence presented by SlimVirgin

The controversy over attack sites was created by people who regularly post to those sites. They created a bunch of slippery-slope strawman positions — "the policy means we can't link to the New York Times!!!" — that other Wikipedians mistook as an implication of the real position.

Some common sense is needed. The anti-linking position is simply this:

Wikipedia should not link to websites set up for the purpose of harassing its volunteers. Harassment in this context refers to cyberstalking, offline stalking, outing people without their consent, humiliating them sexually, or threatening them with physical violence. Even if a website appears not to have been created for that purpose, if a *substantial* amount of its content is devoted to any of the above, it counts as an attack site that should not be linked to anywhere on Wikipedia.

The only websites affected are Wikipedia Review, Encyclopedia Dramatica, Wikipedia Watch, AntiSocialMedia, and a webpage run by Nobs01. Users who try to apply it to michaelmoore.com are simply mistaken. Mistaken application of policy need not affect the policy itself: if it did, we'd have no policies, given that they're all misapplied on a daily basis.

The anti-linking position needn't undermine content. If any of these sites becomes the focus of stories published by multiple reliable sources, and is therefore added to the main namespace, there would still be no need to link to it — our source for material about a notable website would be the reliable source, not the website itself. Mainstream newspapers writing about newsworthy websites that contain defamation or threats of violence often don't even name them, and they certainly don't offer URLs. Their attitude is "this is news and therefore we're reporting it", rather than "hey, come and have a look!"

The important point is that stalkers who create websites for the purpose of scaring our volunteers shouldn't be rewarded by having links to their sites posted by the same project that exposed the volunteer to the stalking in the first place. That is surely a matter of basic common sense and decency. If a rare and unforeseen situation arises where doing so really is necessary, then IAR applies, but those exceptions needn't affect the basic position.

Finally, just because we have a policy (written or otherwise) that says these sites shouldn't be linked to doesn't mean that every single instance of such a link must always and immediately be removed, and posters blocked. It's a policy best enforced with a cluestick rather than a sledgehammer. SlimVirgin 03:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


In view of the evidence that Name Redacted is now and forever blocked by the Jay J.G. known as Jpgordon — incidentally supplying continuing evidence, as if it were ever in short supply, of exactly what kind of "welcome" Wikipedia holds out to "any serious, well thought out criticism of Wikipedia" — I will continue my responses in a Forum where the capacity for critical reason is not yet an altogether lost cause.

Jon Awbrey


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Posts in this topic
Jonny Cache   Wikipedia: A Threat To Civil Society  
SqueakBox   [b]No More Monsieur Nice Guy After all this time...  
Jonny Cache   I look forward to that as any serious, well thoug...  
the fieryangel   Okay, Jonny, is that your sock or not??? If that...  
Jonny Cache   Okay, Jonny, is that your sock or not??? If that...  
the fieryangel   Okay, Jonny, is that your sock or not??? If tha...  
Jonny Cache   If this whole point of this is to be able to say ...  
guy   Well, we don't want to be picking on Guys as ...  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='50640' date='Tue ...  
Joseph100   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='50640' date='Tue...  
jorge   Okay, Jonny, is that your sock or not??? If that...  
Jonny Cache   It is probably easiest for me if I begin with the ...  
Joseph100   [b]No More Monsieur Nice Guy After all this time...  
The Joy   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='50605' date='Tue ...  
Jonny Cache   Didn't Lenin say something similar? If you r...  
GlassBeadGame   See a true picture of a typical wikiadminidiot.....  
Castle Rock   [b]No More Monsieur Nice Guy After all this time...  
Jonny Cache   A threat to society. I think you are vastly over...  
GlassBeadGame   A threat to society. I think you are vastly over...  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Castle Rock' post='51281' date='Sat ...  
Emperor   A threat to society. I think you are vastly over...  
Jonny Cache   In the US, as WE (Da Ppl) like to say, it is the l...  
WhispersOfWisdom   In his book about this very topic, "the cult ...  
Jonny Cache   In his book about this very topic, "the cult...  
SqueakBox   In his book about this very topic, "the cult...  
Jonny Cache   Give me one SlimVirgin over 100 messedrockers â...  
The Joy   I'll admit that I've been editing WP more ...  
WhispersOfWisdom   I'll admit that I've been editing WP more...  
Jonny Cache   Wild west and Al Capone all mixed in with Lord of...  
Emperor   Wild west and Al Capone all mixed in with Lord o...  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='51826' date='Tue ...  
Jonny Cache   Speak o' th' Dust Devil — have you ...  
The Joy   Speak o' th' Dust Devil — have you...  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='51785' date='Tue ...  
Nathan   (aside) I love those Star Trek references.  
Jonny Cache   (aside) I love those Star Trek references. Then...  
Nathan   (aside) I love those Star Trek references. The...  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Nathan' post='52392' date='Sun 30th...  
Jonny Cache   Wikipedia puts the Public at risk in two main ways...  
Jonny Cache   Okay, that was fun, but threats to society are no ...  
Jonny Cache   Any list of required readings on the psychology of...  
Jon Awbrey   A Re*Currently Timely Reference — Any lis...  
Kato   http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb311/Kato90125...  
Jonny Cache   http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb311/Kato90125...  
Jonny Cache   [img]http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb311/Kat...  
Jonny Cache   There is a [topic=13330]discussion in the so-call...  
Somey   There is a [topic=13330]discussion in the so-calle...  
Joseph100   "Don't attribute evil to what may be s...  
Somey   But.... Wikipeidia does "evil" though it...  
Moulton   I define "evil" as a toxic combination ...  
Kato   [b]Evil = Power + Fear + Obliviousness + Ruthlessn...  
Jonny Cache   RE: Wikipedia: A Threat To Civil Society  
GlassBeadGame   Funny thing is Burroughs wrote that in 1959. ...  
Jonny Cache   Funny thing is Burroughs wrote that in 1959. In ...  
Jon Awbrey   A Re*Currently Timely Quote —  
Jonny Cache   [quote name='Jonny Cache' post='57048' date='Mon ...  
Jonny Cache   Let us continue with our study of the Social Contr...  
GlassBeadGame   Let us continue with our study of the "socia...  
Jonny Cache   Begin with the notion of exploitive power imbalan...  
Jon Awbrey   Let us continue with our study of the Social Cont...  
Jonny Cache   RE: Wikipedia: A Threat To Civil Society  
Jonny Cache   It's been thirty years since I read Naked L...  
Jon Awbrey   The Algebra Of Need —  
victim of censorship   [b]The Algebra Of Need — [Youtube]WM...  
Jon Awbrey   Reviving this thread for the sake of a current dis...  


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