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> Cyberstalking list leaks, So much for sooper sekricy
WordBomb
post Sat 30th July 2011, 11:01pm
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I've decided to post a few of the email threads taken from SlimVirgin's Cyberstalking list. I'm going to do this slowly because there are certain people I'd rather not embarrass and others who really deserve it and I need to figure out how to accomplish the later and not the former.

I'll start with my all time favorite: a thread in which David Gerard, Jimmy Wales and Gary Weiss (as Mantanmoreland in this case) discuss how to derail an AP reporter's inquiries into the situation Cade Metz ultimately did a great job reporting on here.

In this exchange, you'll see Gerard conclude that the best way to deal with the situation is essentially to mislead and confuse the reporter. When Gerard ultimately succeeds, Wales responds with "Brilliant, David!"

This should be required reading for any journalist dealing with the WMF on anything but a puff piece basis.

I'd post the text inline, but the emails as I received them were hard copies which I've scanned but cannot get to OCR very well, so I'm posting a pdf to my site (here) which you can download and read.

I've got a ton of these, which I'll try to post weekly (though there may be some redactions).
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Vigilant
post Sat 30th July 2011, 11:20pm
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QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sat 30th July 2011, 11:01pm) *

I've decided to post a few of the email threads taken from SlimVirgin's Cyberstalking list. I'm going to do this slowly because there are certain people I'd rather not embarrass and others who really deserve it and I need to figure out how to accomplish the later and not the former.

I'll start with my all time favorite: a thread in which David Gerard, Jimmy Wales and Gary Weiss (as Mantanmoreland in this case) discuss how to derail an AP reporter's inquiries into the situation Cade Metz ultimately did a great job reporting on here.

In this exchange, you'll see Gerard conclude that the best way to deal with the situation is essentially to mislead and confuse the reporter. When Gerard ultimately succeeds, Wales responds with "Brilliant, David!"

This should be required reading for any journalist dealing with the WMF on anything but a puff piece basis.

I'd post the text inline, but the emails as I received them were hard copies which I've scanned but cannot get to OCR very well, so I'm posting a pdf to my site (here) which you can download and read.

I've got a ton of these, which I'll try to post weekly (though there may be some redactions).

That's just fucking unreal.
Does the journalist they bamboozled have this doc?
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WordBomb
post Sat 30th July 2011, 11:21pm
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QUOTE(Vigilant @ Sat 30th July 2011, 5:20pm) *

QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sat 30th July 2011, 11:01pm) *

I've decided to post a few of the email threads taken from SlimVirgin's Cyberstalking list. I'm going to do this slowly because there are certain people I'd rather not embarrass and others who really deserve it and I need to figure out how to accomplish the later and not the former.

I'll start with my all time favorite: a thread in which David Gerard, Jimmy Wales and Gary Weiss (as Mantanmoreland in this case) discuss how to derail an AP reporter's inquiries into the situation Cade Metz ultimately did a great job reporting on here.

In this exchange, you'll see Gerard conclude that the best way to deal with the situation is essentially to mislead and confuse the reporter. When Gerard ultimately succeeds, Wales responds with "Brilliant, David!"

This should be required reading for any journalist dealing with the WMF on anything but a puff piece basis.

I'd post the text inline, but the emails as I received them were hard copies which I've scanned but cannot get to OCR very well, so I'm posting a pdf to my site (here) which you can download and read.

I've got a ton of these, which I'll try to post weekly (though there may be some redactions).

That's just fucking unreal.
Does the journalist they bamboozled have this doc?
You bet. He was not happy but has yet to do anything about it. I should point out that the reporter was a little embarrassed himself for having forwarded my email to him on to Gerard intact, and for falling for such obvious (in hindsight) BS.
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Cla68
post Sun 31st July 2011, 12:11am
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QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sat 30th July 2011, 11:21pm) *

QUOTE(Vigilant @ Sat 30th July 2011, 5:20pm) *

QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sat 30th July 2011, 11:01pm) *

I've decided to post a few of the email threads taken from SlimVirgin's Cyberstalking list. I'm going to do this slowly because there are certain people I'd rather not embarrass and others who really deserve it and I need to figure out how to accomplish the later and not the former.

I'll start with my all time favorite: a thread in which David Gerard, Jimmy Wales and Gary Weiss (as Mantanmoreland in this case) discuss how to derail an AP reporter's inquiries into the situation Cade Metz ultimately did a great job reporting on here.

In this exchange, you'll see Gerard conclude that the best way to deal with the situation is essentially to mislead and confuse the reporter. When Gerard ultimately succeeds, Wales responds with "Brilliant, David!"

This should be required reading for any journalist dealing with the WMF on anything but a puff piece basis.

I'd post the text inline, but the emails as I received them were hard copies which I've scanned but cannot get to OCR very well, so I'm posting a pdf to my site (here) which you can download and read.

I've got a ton of these, which I'll try to post weekly (though there may be some redactions).

That's just fucking unreal.
Does the journalist they bamboozled have this doc?
You bet. He was not happy but has yet to do anything about it. I should point out that the reporter was a little embarrassed himself for having forwarded my email to him on to Gerard intact, and for falling for such obvious (in hindsight) BS.


Keep it up Judd. It's about time this stuff came out. I understand a number of journalists have been reading this forum, so emails such as these should be of great interest to them.
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EricBarbour
post Sun 31st July 2011, 12:42am
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This. Quoted below in case it goes byebye.

QUOTE
[edit] Overstock.com, David Gerard, and the blocking of the town of Lehi, Utah

Jimbo, are the emails linked to here genuine? If so, do you still support what David Gerard did there to mislead an Associated Press reporter who was investigating the WordBomb/Mantanmoreland affair and support Gerard's range block of an entire community in Utah? Cla68 (talk) 00:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
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thekohser
post Sun 31st July 2011, 5:00pm
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QUOTE(Vigilant @ Sat 30th July 2011, 7:20pm) *

That's just fucking unreal.
Does the journalist they bamboozled have this doc?


Keep in mind that Paul Foy may have wished to be bamboozled in this way. He has a reputation that sounds like he'd naturally be on Gary Weiss' side of the equation.

I don't think he's at Associated Press any more. His old e-mail there doesn't work any more.
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Sololol
post Sun 31st July 2011, 6:02pm
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This is hysterically funny.
David Gerard tries to play off Bagley as someone on the paranoid-schizophrenic continuum ("allegations that certain users were Gary Weiss, and that the people trying to get him to stop on this course of exercising an obsession on the subject were either Gary Weiss, [or] working with him") to a journalist. And it does sound crazy were it not for the niggling detail of its truth. Gerad didn't know who mantanmoreland was yet, right? Cause that would make this low even by his standards.
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melloden
post Sun 31st July 2011, 6:18pm
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QUOTE

Thank you for providing the lengthy explanation and links to his transgressions, which would take far too long to explain even if the subject matter was interesting.


Was it ever interesting to begin with?

Also, who is Sami Harris (in the cc list)?

This post has been edited by melloden: Sun 31st July 2011, 6:19pm
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Somey
post Sun 31st July 2011, 6:27pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 31st July 2011, 12:00pm) *
Keep in mind that Paul Foy may have wished to be bamboozled in this way. He has a reputation that sounds like he'd naturally be on Gary Weiss' side of the equation.

Well, he did mention something about Mr. Bagley having "violated Wikipedia's fairness rules," and since we all know that no such rules exist, and that Dave didn't use the term himself, Mr. Foy is clearly not very good at the tedious "research aspect" of old-fashioned journalism.

Meanwhile, Dave has always been sort of the "G. Gordon Liddy of Wikipedia," though I'll admit that he has a slightly better sense of humor than Liddy. However, Liddy is a better dresser, and also has a better moustache.

QUOTE(melloden @ Sun 31st July 2011, 1:18pm) *
Also, who is Sami Harris (in the cc list)?

Weiss.
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lilburne
post Sun 31st July 2011, 7:16pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 31st July 2011, 7:27pm) *

However, Liddy is a better dresser, and also has a better moustache.


Yeah but Gerard does get some some votes.

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WordBomb
post Sun 31st July 2011, 7:31pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 31st July 2011, 11:00am) *

QUOTE(Vigilant @ Sat 30th July 2011, 7:20pm) *

That's just fucking unreal.
Does the journalist they bamboozled have this doc?


Keep in mind that Paul Foy may have wished to be bamboozled in this way. He has a reputation that sounds like he'd naturally be on Gary Weiss' side of the equation.

I don't think he's at Associated Press any more. His old e-mail there doesn't work any more.
Actually, that guy Wolfrum is one of Weiss's buddies (or at least they seemed to have a mutual-linking SEO pact going for a while). What you are reading is Wolfrum complaining that Paul Foy is a bad journalist because he wrote something non-slanted about Overstock.com last year.

As an aside, note how blatant the link trading in that post was: he links from the word 'journalist' to Weiss's blog in a completely non-contextual way. He and Weiss used to do that sort of crap for each other every day.
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WordBomb
post Sun 31st July 2011, 7:39pm
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 31st July 2011, 12:27pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 31st July 2011, 12:00pm) *
Keep in mind that Paul Foy may have wished to be bamboozled in this way. He has a reputation that sounds like he'd naturally be on Gary Weiss' side of the equation.

Well, he did mention something about Mr. Bagley having "violated Wikipedia's fairness rules," and since we all know that no such rules exist, and that Dave didn't use the term himself, Mr. Foy is clearly not very good at the tedious "research aspect" of old-fashioned journalism.

Meanwhile, Dave has always been sort of the "G. Gordon Liddy of Wikipedia," though I'll admit that he has a slightly better sense of humor than Liddy. However, Liddy is a better dresser, and also has a better moustache.

QUOTE(melloden @ Sun 31st July 2011, 1:18pm) *
Also, who is Sami Harris (in the cc list)?

Weiss.
And this is one of the most entertaining aspects of the email threads I'm going to be posting: Weiss contributing to the same conversation not only as Mantanmoreland and Samiharris, but also as HIMSELF!

When I look at the extreme lengths Weiss went to when selling his fiction, I begin to understand why so many fell for it: because to believe otherwise would be to believe that they'd spent an enormous amount of time and energy being made a fool of while defending a psychopath.
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thekohser
post Sun 31st July 2011, 8:59pm
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Jimmy Wales not only defends David Gerard, he lathers him up with a loofah brush as they sit together in the same bubble bath of lies.

I, for one, am really sick of Jimbo lying about so many things, with nobody there to step in and call him on it.

QUOTE
David Gerard:
As the details communicated via Bagley are pretty much accurate, I figured we were unlikely to be able to stonewall this one into disappearing, so Sandy <Wikimedia Foundation Communications Manager, Sandra Ordonez> and Sue <Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director, Sue Gardner> recommended plan B: be tedious."


QUOTE
Jimmy Wales:
What David Gerard was trying to do there was find a way to explain the situation truthfully (which he did) without making it seem interesting (when it wasn't). This is quite common in handling press inquiries - you have to be very careful not to *create* a story when there isn't one. The last thing you want to do is say something interesting when there is actually nothing interesting to be said. So you have to write it up in a very boring way, being very careful to avoid inflaming a situation.

Bagley was making outrageous and frankly ludicrous claims about what can only be called a conspiracy theory.


Jimmy Wales is such an obviously deceitful troll. It's no wonder he can't get a woman to stand by him, even in good times. Nor can I imagine that he retains any friends from his life before Wikipedia.
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thekohser
post Sun 31st July 2011, 9:04pm
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QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sun 31st July 2011, 3:31pm) *

Actually, that guy Wolfrum is one of Weiss's buddies (or at least they seemed to have a mutual-linking SEO pact going for a while). What you are reading is Wolfrum complaining that Paul Foy is a bad journalist because he wrote something non-slanted about Overstock.com last year.

As an aside, note how blatant the link trading in that post was: he links from the word 'journalist' to Weiss's blog in a completely non-contextual way. He and Weiss used to do that sort of crap for each other every day.


My bad.
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Milton Roe
post Sun 31st July 2011, 9:15pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 30th July 2011, 5:42pm) *

This. Quoted below in case it goes byebye.

QUOTE
[edit] Overstock.com, David Gerard, and the blocking of the town of Lehi, Utah

Jimbo, are the emails linked to here genuine? If so, do you still support what David Gerard did there to mislead an Associated Press reporter who was investigating the WordBomb/Mantanmoreland affair and support Gerard's range block of an entire community in Utah? Cla68 (talk) 00:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


Wales reponds!

QUOTE(Wales)

Wow, Cla68, that's a pretty outrageous summary of what happened there. What David Gerard was trying to do there was find a way to explain the situation truthfully (which he did) without making it seem interesting (when it wasn't). This is quite common in handling press inquiries - you have to be very careful not to *create* a story when there isn't one. The last thing you want to do is say something interesting when there is actually nothing interesting to be said. So you have to write it up in a very boring way, being very careful to avoid inflaming a situation.

Bagley was making outrageous and frankly ludicrous claims about what can only be called a conspiracy theory. I remember reading his theory that I was somehow, due to my background working in the financial markets, in cahoots with the global conspiracy of financial journalists to cover up wrongdoing in the financial markets. He wrote in a very breathless style at the time about "I happen to have proof of something they want very much to suppress. It's really very sordid and to anybody's knowledge, this sort of thing has never happened before." Total ranting nonsense, that.

Yes, I fully support that range block, and I'm unaware of any legitimate complaints about it. When you have someone behaving as Bagley was (ongoing sockpuppeting), there is often little choice but the block an entire range - you know this, as it unfortunately happens all the time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


Ahem. I'm afraid it's less than correct to say that "What David Gerard was trying to do there was find a way to explain the situation truthfully (which he did) without making it seem interesting (when it wasn't)." It is interesting (though this is a matter of taste). And as for the "truthfulness part," it depends on what Gerard knew at the time. Factual, it isn't.

Mr. Wales, you know, don't you, that the email you sent Gerard that said "Brilliant!" in getting a reporter to think that Bagley had violated WP's "fairness rules" (as a newbie less than a day old), was regarded Bagley's complaint that Wikipedia was being manipulated by a journalist named Weiss on matters of Overstock and shortselling and Wiess' BLP, and that Weiss was [[user:Mantanmoreland]]? And (later) that he had a number of socks on WP, which was what Bagley was banned for? You copied Mantanmoreland on your email, and you also copied one of his later identified socks, [[user:samiharris]]. And Bagley's other complaint was that these were being protected unfairly by [[user:SlimVirgin]], who was the OTHER person you copied?

If all this was true (which it proved to be) then the Wikipedia actions against Bagley certainly looked like a conspiracy, even if it was merely the manipulation of a bunch of clueless administrators. SlimVirgin AT LEAST had the grace to (later) complain on Wikipedia Review about being manipulated by Mantanmoreland. Gerard never said anything in public that I know of, since to do so would be to remind everybody how clueless he was to the real situation in 2007, despite some fairly frantic attempts to inform him (which he put off as the ravings of the mentally ill).

And now we come to YOU, Mr. Wales, in 2011. Have you not been brought up to date yet about your email cc: list in 2007? "Being manipulated by Mantanmoreland" is your BEST excuse. But that would involve some kind of apology for being wrong, and for mistreating Bagley for trying to get the truth out. A truth you weren't listening to. And still have yet to admit.

Perhaps Bagley will then admit that you actually were not in cahoots with the global conspiracy of financial journalists to cover up wrongdoing in the financial markets. That you were just clueless. Like Gerard. And SlimVirgin.
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Silver seren
post Sun 31st July 2011, 10:32pm
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Please do keep giving us more of this stuff. It's really fascinating. None of the stuff about Gerard or Jimbo surprises me at all though.

I wonder if any Arbcom members are going to comment in this thread. It doesn't actually apply to them at all, but there's also no way to explain away Jimbo and Gerard's actions in this.
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Milton Roe
post Sun 31st July 2011, 10:38pm
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QUOTE(lilburne @ Sun 31st July 2011, 12:16pm) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 31st July 2011, 7:27pm) *

However, Liddy is a better dresser, and also has a better moustache.


Yeah but Gerard does get some some votes.

He gets my vote for most merdiferous. yecch.gif
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EricBarbour
post Sun 31st July 2011, 11:14pm
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Jesus H. Christ. That stuff is dynamite.

(Of course, it's also old history. And the great mob of Wikiboys don't care and will never care--
until they get sick of blocking 200 new users and IP addresses every day, and quit.)

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sun 31st July 2011, 11:27pm
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Cla68
post Sun 31st July 2011, 11:37pm
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What amazes me is that Jimbo still defends Gerard range-blocking a neighborhood of several thousand people. I think it has been speculated that it was Jimbo who told Gerard to do the block, if so, that explains why Jimbo continues to defend it and Gerard won't talk about it.

This post has been edited by Cla68: Sun 31st July 2011, 11:43pm
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Cla68
post Sun 31st July 2011, 11:52pm
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This thread probably should be merged with the Cyberstalking list thread in the Arbcom-L leaks forum.
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